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65nm Athlons Debut With Lower Power Consumption
TheRaindog writes "AMD has finally rolled out Athlon 64 X2 processors based on 65nm process technology, and The Tech Report has an interesting look at their energy usage and overclocking potential compared to current 90nm models. The new 65nm chips consume less power at idle and under load than their 90nm counterparts, and appear to have plenty of headroom for overclocking. An Athlon 64 X2 5000+ that normally runs at 2.4 GHz was taken all the way up to 2.9 GHz with standard air cooling and only a marginal voltage boost, suggesting that we may see faster chips from AMD soon."
The little gem in this story is the Athlon 64 X2 3800+ EE SFF 2.0GHz. At 35W, that sounds like a perfect CPU choice for a super-silent HTPC.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
If you have only one core, you need to rely on the OS to not get in the way of running processes during task switches. With more than one core, processes can be split amongst the cores so that they do not need to be interrupted all the time by the OS timer interrupt handler. The more cores you have, the better you can scale up, even if the cores themselves are slower than a competing single core chip.
It's like driving down the highway in your train vs riding the rails in your Audi. Sure, you can try to drive the car on the train tracks for a while, but eventually the springs will break and your tires will pop and you end up walking to your final destination. But if you took the train, you'd probably tear up the road and it would take a while since you couldn't get much traction with the large metal wheels, but since you're carrying a whole lot of stuff in the train cars being pulled behind you, your bandwidth / time ratio is very favorable.
considering my 3800+ X2 runs at 2.8ghz with 1.5V. 2.9ghz really doesnt seem like much for a higher end model.. I'm thinking they will need at least 3.1ghz or so overclocks on air to have much of a chance in most highend enthusiast rigs.
A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Isn't overclocking illegal these days? Because of DMCA or something...
I simply can't wait to get my hands on one of these and start overclocking. Getting them out the door at 2.9 GHZ should mean there's some overclocking head room left in the chips. Probably not too much, but I'll take what I can get.
Anand has a nice review of these new processors, including performance comparisons.
The surprise is that it was a little slower than it's 90nm counterpart. They chased it down to the cache latency going up from 90nm to the 65nm part.
Other than that, it looks good.
There is nothing so silly as other peoples traditions, and nothing so sacred as our own.
nice specs, just a few months overdue.
I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft.
AMD processors are nice as long as you use them at their nominal clock.
I've had bad experiences overclocking AMD processors (considering extended usage >6 months and at 100% load) with proper refrigeration. Unfortunately those processors tend do break (with no prior warning) eventually. What's a pity, since they overclock well.
There are worse processors in this aspect though, the UltraSPARC (at least the "I" models) may die after few years user nominal clock and standard refrigeration.
I've never had problems overclocking an Intel processor. Perhaps because they already irradiate lots of heat (and are built with that in mind), those processors seem to have a good resistance to overclocking and, when things are going bad, they tend to become unstable (and more sensitive to temperature) instead of just dying immediately.
I'm thinking of buying a new notebook. When will these be available?
...But most of the time irrelevant.
Anandtech has two good reviews here (lower power) and here (lower performance)
The main reason is the increase of L2 Cache Latency from 12 cycles to 20. But in most of the benchmarks the difference is very low.
Is that 90nm should be enough for anyone....
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
Next time your class stud mentions his 9", you can counter by mentioning that your 6.5" consumes less power and gets the job done faster!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Where's the 64 bit ver...
Oh wait
Summation 2
Try "Symmetric Multiprocessing"
The cesspool just got a check and balance.
If you are about to buy a AMD chip, ensure you buy a AM2 version, this is becuase non-AM2 versions do no support low level Hardware Virtualization (which means that XEN - and competitiors - can only operate in a paravirtualization mode)
You do know that you bought a crippled processor, right? The Sempron is the alternative to a Celeron. If you bought a real processor like an Athlon 64 or Athlon XP for slightly more (or a lower clocked one for less $$$ and still more performance) you probably wouldn't have it skip much.
Okay. Let's test a low power CPU. We need to stick it in a low-power board to get good measurements, of course. Let's ignore that we've got a 6150 with integrated graphics.Then let's stick on a big-ass 7950 which consumes over 70w on it's own at idle.
Is this a mistake in the article, or is this just... Insane?
Nice.
Apparently Brisbane (65nm) has a 20-cycle L2 cache latency, vs. the 12-cycle latency from the 90nm versions. http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx? i=2893&p=3
We really need a "Whoosh" mod.
I [may] disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
Faster isn't always better. "Efficient" should not be the word one uses to describe your sexual performance.
"Live as if you'll die tomorrow." Ridiculous. You could die later today.
Nice to see some bigots with moderation points.
"Flamebait" != "I disagree"
But it seems by the modding you got that "Troll" == "I disagree and STFU!"
So say we all
Whenever AMD or Intel moves to a new process, they do not expect much from the first cores(they are happy if they get as many cores from a wafer as they did before-which if my sources are correct, Intel didn't do, and AMD has).
A lot of people forget that when Intel moved to 65nm, the new chips were slower in many ways, and the clock speeds were lower than the top end 90nm P4's.
By industry standards these AMD 65nm chips are a SUCCESS.
My only beef with the 65nm Athlons is that I cannot buy one at newegg, or order one from DELL. In my world, if I cannot order a PC with one, or buy it at newegg, IT IS A PAPER LAUNCH!
ALL the test sites seem to be preoccupied with overclocking and overvolting.
I cannot help but think there are enough of us interested in undervolting potential that someone should write a blurb about that.
These are nice, but I'm just trying to track down one of the new 35W Semprons that AMD makes (model # SDD*). Unfortunately, nobody carries them at retail. And unless I want to order them in packs of 12, or pay for shipping from Sweden, I seem to be completely out of luck.
09
I have posted an update to my initial look at AMD's 65nm processors here:
http://techreport.com/onearticle.x/11486
The update addresses some anomalies in L2 cache performance and raises some possibly related questions about die sizes for the 65nm Athlon 64 X2. It appears this chip is not just a die shrink with the same performance characteristics, after all.
My current rig is an Athlon 64 3200+, 10k RPM drive, ATI 9800 Pro, 2GB of RAM.
:) That said, go buy a X1900 and run Folding@home!
There are 2 HUGE mistakes there. The CPU and the drive. Both are HOT, and hungry hungry for $power.
My next machine I'm looking exclusively at the dual core 35W CPU's, leaning a little to Intel over AMD. For the drive, I'll probably go for a SATA laptop drive, since by 10 min after booting, absolutely everything is in RAM anyway - turns out drive performance is 100% irrelevant.
The 9800 runs all the games I've playyed since (Lineage2, GuildWars, AutoAssault, WoW) at 30+ FPS, so it's good enough for anyone who doesn't live in their parents basement
Finding data on low-power video cards has been a little trickier, noone seems to make anything under 1.21 jigawatts. Even the 9800 is hot stuff.
Sounds alot like a Mac Mini, so clearly Apple has figured out the same stuff, and that may just be the cheapest way to go once they move them to core 2 duo.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
I'm one of the fortunate 'many' that have had nothing but problems with AMD's x2 chips. Everywhere I turn I see the same problem listed and lamented about in forums- random total hard freezes with the X2 chips running a variety of mobos and configurations.
Some say to disable CnQ, others all USB (like THATS a fix nowadays), while still others recommend a full re-installation of everything and hope it works (doesn't).
I've swapped PSUs, memory, motherboard, drives, RAID cards, firewire cards, keyboard wedges (scanners), USB devices, disabled everything, and I can still get a lockup.
Moral of the story? I'm going back to intel. Yes, they're power hungry, more expensive, and rather not the company I'd like to support, but at least I never had a problem with their chipsets.
(And why are the crashes so annoying? 7 hours+ to rebuild a RAID-5 array everytime the computer freezes. And it still freezes if I remove all components and put in an old video card... but there is NO discernable pattern to it.)
Freeze examples:
Pressing the 'back' button on Firefox.
Getting up to go take a piss while downloading Ubuntu
Compressing a DVD
Ripping a DVD
writing a DVD
(yes I removed all DVD writers from the system and still got a lockup)
3 PSU's (Antec, 2x Ultras) no affect
Mind you I was totally stable when I had an AMD 3000+ chip- but I gave it to my parents when I decided to 'upgrade' and before I knew this hell was going to befall me. Had I known that, I would have shanked the whole system to ebay in parts and hoped they goto the four corners to never again see the light of day...
Conroe Duo Extreme, here I come when you drop to 118$/CPU.
I hear the same problems from people who assemble either an AMD or Intel based system. Either way, I suggest that since you do not know how to diagnose and repair such problems, you save yourself the trouble and purchase a premade system from someone who does.
Regardless, your problem is either:
Hardware:
* Crap power supplies - biggest problem I've personally seen lately.
* Crap memory - have not seem much of this lately.
* Under voltage memory - biggest problem I've seen complaints about DDR2. Lots of DDR2 memory is sold to auto configure voltage for an Intel system, but require 0.1 to 0.2 more volts for an AMD system. If your memory is less than 2.0 or 2.1 volts, go into the BIOS and set it to 2.0 volts. If that does not work, set it to 2.1 volts.
* Overheating - which is actually from improper assembly by "dumbass user" of heatsink and thermal grease on CPU.
* First revisions of hardware with known bugs -- requires proper drivers to be installed, which also comes down to "dumbass user" for purchasing the hardware in the first place and not being able to find the latest drivers.
Dumbass/Incompetent User:
* Install ALL necessary and latest drivers - motherboard, video, etc.
* Improper assembly
* Static shock to components
* Overclocking
Good luck. I'll buy your stuff for $100 if you cannot get it to work =).
R you sure it's the CPU?
I had the same problem, but it was due to "bad RAM"
I had purchased new RAM (2x1GB to put in a 2x512MB system) and was experiencing freezes all the time too. Then I switched the RAM on the motherboard and have been experiencing no problem what's so eever.
So try eliminate some of the parts and look which combination is giving headaches.
If not, good luck with Dual Core 2 Duo from Intel:-)
* Under voltage memory - biggest problem I've seen complaints about DDR2. Lots of DDR2 memory is sold to auto configure voltage for an Intel system, but require 0.1 to 0.2 more volts for an AMD system. If your memory is less than 2.0 or 2.1 volts, go into the BIOS and set it to 2.0 volts. If that does not work, set it to 2.1 volts.
Thats exactly what I had to do to make mine stable. I bumped up the DDR2 voltage a bit and haven't had a problem since.
Clickety Click
...we had 90cm and we liked it that way!
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
Hey, thanks for the offer- really. But as I tried to say, I have been as thorough as you can without owning a tech shop.
I have tested 2x different video cards. Still locks up randomly.
I have tested 3x different PSUs. Unless you have suddenly lumped Antec TRU supplies in with 'crap' I'd have to say that's rather unfair- An Ultra and a NEO as well.
All the drivers? Of course! And as I said everything *WAS* stable *UNTIL* I installed the X2 chip. From then on it's been down hill- with NO discernable pattern.
Memory is CORSAIR XMS 2GB, run at just a bit higher voltage- Oh yeah, it passes MemTest86 for 9 hours.
CPU? Not overclocked. Stock everything. Why? Because I need to get to a stable system.
Anyways, I do appreciate your comments. This is the 10th AMD system single chip I've built and the first 'dual core' system, but I'm not a stranger to dual-CPU configs. I know all about temperatures and cooling requirements- used to design and sell waterblocks back when you couldn't just place an order for a CNC machined one.
What it comes down to is that this particular chip, and the manufacturers that make the boards with them, have problems that can't be dropped into the 'dumbass' user slot. With that sort of hardware support from a mobo maker you'd wonder why the chipmaker is getting a shit response.
And with that.... I'm off to backup some more data before the system locks up again.
Never had a problem myself. Do the freezes happen while in Ubuntu too? If not, then have you suspected some buggy software/service (or maybe malware) could be causing it.
What type of motherboard do you have?
MemTest86 is no good for tracking down timing or voltage issues with "almost good" systems. It doesn't put anywhere near enough load on the CPU and other components while it does the memory testing. In general, MemTest86 will only catch completely bad memory modules.
If you *really* want to be sure of your memory (and system), run Prime95 in torture test mode. Exercising your disks and video at the same time is also recommended (while you check operating temperatures). You'll want to run for at least 4 hours, but preferably as long as 48 hours.
Wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?
Ooh! Ooh! Can I be modded down to?
I'll even add my Karma bonus to the post so you'll have to mod me down multiple times to get it to -1!
Since you obviously haven't read the moderation instructions, here are some suggestions on how you might want to mod my post:
* Offtopic
* Flamebait
* Overrated
I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
I have two Antec Smart Power 400 power supplies, dead after less than three months of use. Both protected by APC UPS's while in use. So, yes, I currently place Antec in the 'crap' power supply category.
You did not mention specifically what power supplies you used. Again, THIS IS THE BIGGEST PROGLEM I HAVE SEEN. You need to make sure that the power supply you use is rated at minium for the ATX v2.2 standard. You need to make sure that it provides enough wattage on each rail. This means at least 35w+ on the 3.3v, 35w+ on the 5v, and 18w+ on each 12v. You may need even more depending, e.g. lots of hard drives or SLI video cards.
Crap power supplies typically result in
* machine not powering on -- even if lights indicate power available
* machine sometimes powering on, only powering on speradically
* machine turning off almost immediatly after being turned on
* machine turning off spontaneously -- could also be an indication of other faulty system components.
* machine locking up -- also a good indication whether someone is using a UPS and/or has their refrigerator on the same circuit.
These issues typically indicate that the power supply cannot or can nolonger supply correct and necessary power to the system. The fail safe circuitry in many power supplies are typically responsible for the first four of these behaviours. This could be because of a faulty power supply not producing enough power, Really crappy power supplies are typically responsible for the last. i.e. they may end up frying your system.
You did not mention whether you are using a UPS. Some issues apply to it. Either a faulty UPS, or a faulty eletric utility grid.
You did not mention what motherboards you used, or whether they're DDR or DDR2 or 939 or AM2. The earlier 939 motherboard did not have BIOS which supported multicore chips. You did try flashing the motherboard to the latest BIOS, correct?
Also, early revions of BIOS in the AM2 motherboards had problems correctly detecting and configuring for the memory's SPD. You did try flashing the motherboard to the latest BIOS, correct?
You did not say anything about checking the voltage on the memory. If you are using DDR2, you did insure that the memory is set to 2.0v minimum, correct?
You did not say anything about the temperature of the processor. An AthlonX2 (both 89w and 65w versions) should give around 30*C CPU @ 15*C ambient temperature or 40*C @ 20*C ambient temperature when idle. You did install the monitoring software from the motherboard vendor, correct? Temperature probes are not always accurate, but they give a reasonable indicator of proper heat sink installation and system air flow.
Good luck.
I agree. I think that's one of the biggest fault of AMD. They don't make a chipset that's as stable as intel's.
You all realize that power scales with voltage CUBED right?
So 1.42 volts / 1.35 volts ~ 9%
But 9% cubed is about 1.09^3 = 30%
So 30% more power isn't exactly marginal.
Otherwise, CPU vendors would sell the chip at 1.42 volts.
Actually I'm one of those too that had the Antec "3 for 3" special- 3 replaced power supplies in 3 years. Each one of the failed ones were rather obvious as the 5V and 12V rails were very low- 4.3V and 11.2V, respectively. This one is cranking out 5.3V and 12.5V as measured with the Fluke. Again, all new PSUs which are pushing the requisite voltages (and I haven't seen any drops while monitoring.
CPU temps are all low- 40C, 43C under load (I did see a 45C once...) as measured with 'Core Temp' and MBM5 / SpeedFan.
UPS is an APC 1000 / Smart-UPS. Doubt its that.
This is socket 939- so DDR400/PC3200 ram. Bios was flashed when the crashes began to the latest version- and I didn't notice at the time but the ram timings were reduced to 'safe' values- 166 instead of 200- upping them back didn't help either. Memory is at 2.5V (would have to reboot to double check and the raid-5 is rebuilding).
The machine works just fine- it doesn't power off, it just 'pauses'. It's literally sitting next to a constant buzz and then all the associated clicks, whirls, beeps, and bumps suddenly stop, and you're left with just the sound of air flowing over components. Of course video still works so I can see my bloody mouse cursor sitting theredoing nothing.
But keep throwing out ideas. No help on the forums so far maybe you'll hit one I haven't looked thru. Or maybe I'll get another hard lock and I'll go back to the hard liquor....
If we can totally rule out power supplies and cpu temperature issues, I'd say it is a driver/hardware bug. Get the latest motherboard drivers direct from the chipset manufacturer, get the latest video drivers from the chipset manufacturer, and install the latest processor driver from AMD.
If you've got a Nvidia based motherboard, go directly to nvidia. If you've got a Via based motherboard, throw it away =). Same with Nvidia or ATI based video cards. Few people seem to know about the AMD windows processor driver.
You can run cpuz to see what revision chipset the motherboard has to check for known bugs in it.
You can run FreeBSD or like to get real output for recuring hardware issues that windows ignores/hides. If it boots without errors, put it in a repeat cycle of buildworlds.
At this point I'd need to get my hands on the hardware itself.
As I've said, latest drivers. Confirmed today, again.
So I got to spend the evening with my inlaws. 3 stiff drinks later and I was ready to have 5 more. But when I came home I can say, with certainty, that 6 hours of prime 95 on both cores showed no errors and no crashes. 49C/54C on the cores.
You did give me one idea I missed tho- I changed the SATA driver in the bios from 'ide' to 'sata'. I switched it back. No crashes yet. It's still early tho- I went 4 days without a lockup previously.
Stable drivers.... sorry... I love AMD. I lost 10K on Intel last year alone- I want the little guy to keep pounding them. But this isn't any way to win market share- this shouldn't be necessary.
Asus A8N board just arrived... decisions decisions....
*grin*
15 hours of prime 95 just fine. On both cores.
2 hours later I decided to check gmail- poof- down goes the computer.
Such a fun bug...
So, we can pretty much rule out a problem with the cpu and memory.
The variables in the problem are poorly specified. We do not know exactly what hardware you are using and have used to test with and in what combinations.
What power supply? What amprage on each rail (3.3v, 5v, 12v)? What ATX version?
What motherboard? What PCB revision? What chipset revision? What BIOS version?
What memory?
What hard drive? What chipset is on the PCB?
What addin cards?
etc.
What OS? What version? What patch level/service pack?
What drivers? Their versions?
Other possible issues:
Maxtor SATA hard drives had problems with nforce3 and nforce4 chipsets.
You did not attach the molex power connector on motherboard for your video card, and your video card requires it.
If you are using an nforce chipset, NVidia storage drivers may still be buggy. Do not install them.
Your motherboard may have bad capacitors.
BTW, use Orthos instead of prime95 for dual core stress testing:
http://sp2004.fre3.com/
http://sp2004.fre3.com/beta/beta2.htm
Like I said, I'd pretty much need to get my hands on the hardware itself to diagnose the problem at this point. Anyway, good luck and happy holidays.
Golly, a square processor chip measuring 65 nanometers by 65 nanometers. That's tiny.
How can you even see something that small, much less install it in your computer?
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