Flying To the US? Pay In Cash

pin_gween writes to point us to a report in the Telegraph that British travelers using a credit card to purchase their ticket may now have their credit card and email accounts inspected by US authorities. This has been true since October, when the US and the EU agreed about what information the US could demand from airlines and how this information would be handled. But details of the agreement only recently came to light following a Freedom of Information request. The US says it will "encourage" US carriers to reciprocate to any requests by European governments. From the article: "[T]he Americans are entitled to 34 separate pieces of Passenger Name Record (PNR) data... Initially, such material could be inspected for seven days but a reduced number of US officials could view it for three and a half years. Should any record be inspected during this period, the file could remain open for eight years...'It is pretty horrendous, particularly when you couple it with our one-sided extradition arrangements with the US,' said [a human rights activist]. 'It is making the act of buying a ticket a gateway to a host of personal email and financial information. While there are safeguards, it appears you would have to go to a US court to assert your rights.'"

Comments

Better yet

[Timesprout]

Just dont go to the US. Screw them and their 'information' requirements.

Re:Better yet

[WiFiBro]

"If you choose not to follow the rules"
commonly voiced opinion but I disagree. Every person has some right to privacy. I find paying by creditcard no valid reason to invade that.

Re:Better yet

[Viol8]

With the kind of idiots and little hitlers that seem to get hired as policemen in britain these days I'm damn glad they don't have guns.

Re:Better yet

[VJ42]

I decided not to go to the US ever since they started wanting my finger prints, and told me they'd smash locks on my suitcase in order to inspect it, so I shouldn't use them(If you want to look inside it, ask me and I'll unlock it, however I'm not going to let thieves have it easy). With Paris, Berlin, Rome, Prague etc. all under an hour away, and tickets from as little as 99p why should I spend my money in the US, when it's cheaper to fly to mainland Europe? Throw in the extra "Romance", History and Culture* of the major Europian cities what does the US have to draw my tourist £££s any more?

*No offence meant, the US has it's merits and is unique in it's own way, but American culture is very different from European culture; When some one says "American culture", my first thought is of McDonalds if some one talks about "European culture" I think of the Renaissance. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just a very different one. As for History, this link sums up my thoughts: http://www.fatbadgers.co.uk/Britain/old.htm ;)

Re:Better yet

[Nasarius]

Uhhhh...what? I think you just said that culture = office buildings. That is, seriously, some of the stupidest shit I've ever read. You speak like you have no appreciation for life, let alone culture.

When I think of American culture, I think of Manhattan, probably because I grew up on Long Island. I love Manhattan for the open-air markets, the theaters (and Shakespeare in the Park), the diverse restaurants, the museums (MOMA, Guggenheim, Museum of Natural History), Chinatown, the musicians in the subway stations and on the street, the people I meet in Union Square, etc. I could say many of the same things about New Orleans, which has its own unique flavor. Europe packs more cultural diversity into a few hundred square miles than we have in the entire US, and adds centuries of history wherever you go.

Re:Better yet

[wass]

No offence meant, the US has it's merits and is unique in it's own way, but American culture is very different from European culture; When some one says "American culture", my first thought is of McDonalds if some one talks about "European culture" I think of the Renaissance.

This is a very common misconception amongst Europeans, that American culture doesn't exist beyond Walmart, McDonalds, and the Simpsons. Your statement is highly misleading because it looks at current American consumer companies while contrasting that to one of European history. For American culture in comparison to your European Renaissance comment, for example, you could consider the allure of the Wild West ("Cowboys & Indians", Dodge City and Boot Hill, railroads in the great westward expansion, etc).

If you really want to consider American culture, how about American music (jazz, blues, country/western, bluegrass, soul, rap, hip-hop). And of course important American influences on rock&roll. How about American dance forms, which deviated from the formal ballroom dances of Europe with 'street dancing' (eg Swing in NYC in the 20's). And also American contributions (eg in Miami, NYC, and Puerto Rico) to Salsa and other Latin dance and musical styles. How about American contributions to literature, considering these American Nobel Laureates in literature.

And of course there's a whole world of culture in the conflicts in American history. For example, with slavery and the Civil War, and the continuing struggle for Civil Rights including Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, and the whole associated musical/dance/literary/art culture with this (eg, I'd highly recomend seeing Sweet Honey in the Rock if you get a chance).

I could go on and on. But long story short, anybody claiming that American culture doesn't exist is exhibiting an unfortunate ignorance which ironically is a common stereotype of how unworldly Americans are these days.

Re:Better yet

[VJ42]

What Europe can give you, except for those cheap airline tickets (yay!), is lots of old houses that some mighty rulers/dictators once built. I wasn't just talking about the major, well known attractions; I was talking about much less well known ones, for example Bunhill cemetery, where in, say Iowa, are you going to find so many well know figures all burried in the same grave yard, or where in the whole of the USA are you going to find A pub dating from the 11th century? That's not "some houses some rulers liked", but an actual place still being used. As the link in my last post showed, there are many such buildings around the UK; I'm sure the rest of Europe is much the same.

Re:Better yet

[VJ42]

I apologise if I was misleading, I was just trying to convey a very general feeling. Of course the USA has it's cultural merits, the destruction of New Orleans in hurricane was akin to burning down the Louvre in that respect. My point was that we have so much more history packed into a much smaller area, and in much more unexpected places. The examples I gave in a sibling post were Bunhill cemetery and this pub from the 11th Century. The USA just isn't old enough to have places like them yet. No doubt in 800 years time you will have as many places of note, if not many, many more.

As I said, no disrespect was meant I was just trying to point out I have so much on my "doorstep", that I'd never see it all, so why should I spend my tourist ££s in the USA if I'm going to be treated like a suspect before I even get into the country. The US needs people like me to spend money there; I don't need to spend my money in the US.

Re:Better yet

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

Asserting that ~200 years of American culture (using the Wild West and slavery as examples) is equatable to thousands of years of European civilization...

Get over your inferiority complex. A single human can only amass one lifetime's worth of culture and simply disregarding 200 years of culture is nothing but crass. Whether it's the food of San Francisco, or the wine of Napa, or the music of modern composers such as Barber or Cage or Glass (or jazz or hip-hop), or the movies of Hollywood, or the paintings of the countless American painters whose work goes through the museums here, or the quality TV produced in recent years, or the American language itself with a diversity and colour that's completely ignored by most Brits but is there nonetheless, or even simply the traditions of Thanksgiving (which is far more civilised than any celebration that Britain, say, has to offer), there is plenty of culture to be enjoyed here. Culture isn't just something dusty and old and found in museums, it's something still lived and breathed by people today, and dismissing 200 years is your loss.

FWIW I'm a Londoner, now living in California, and I'm no americaphile.

Re:Better yet

[fermion]

You miss the point. The idea is that US culture is different enough from other cultures that it seems foreign. OTOH, many people in the US are culturally connected to European culture, so it is not so foreign, and is an enjoyable vacation for many.

Let's take this a step further. There are places in South and Central America that are safe and closer to many in the United States. Yet many in the US still prefer to take the European vacation. Why? The European vacation just seems more normal.

So lets put it another way. Much of this has been a form of isolationism. We are pretty secure in our little country, and when things start to get a bit dicey, we have a tendency to close off those borders. Most times we are protected from this overreaction because it does cost money, and as much as conservatives are fearful, they also like to make money. But sometimes the overreaction happens, and it costs us. For instance, we now require passports where they were not required previously, even though lack of passports was not an issue in the antecedent events. The passport office does not really have the funding to deal with the additional work, which means that our passports will become less secure. So we implemented a policy that will likely reduce security. Likewise, the more we check on every passenger, not only does it deter legitimate travel, it also creates a system that encourages costly bureacracy without providing additional benifits. I mean none of these advanced systems are needed to cath people with certain last names or people who believe that prayer to god is an important part of life, which is so American that many megachurches advacate praying before trips, important financial transactions, and even meetings.

In the end, the isolationist simply don't want interactions with the other. We can have illigal immigrant labor as long as we don't have to see, feed, house, treat, or education them. Anyone who is willing to be strip searched is free to come for a visit, but we don't need them.

The sad thing is that instead of letting the no longer needed airlines fail, the isolationist are asking for billions of dollars to subsidize them.

Re:Better yet

[master_p]

One can also watch the movie "Borat" and get away with the expenses.

Re:Better yet

[crawling_chaos]

Is Stonehenge more culturally significant than the Gateway Arch? Sure, one could argue that Shakespeare generated more culture than Mark Twain

Well Stonehenge gets built earlier, so it will generate a fair amount before the discovery of Calendar obsoletes it. Twain and Shakespeare are both Great Artists, so they generate the same amount of culture.

Silly? Yes. As is this whole penis-size contest.

Re:Better yet

[rifter]

"Or are you talking about more recently? I still see reports of how much we are spending in Iraq. I have yet to see any profit reports come out. Wait, did we sell all that purple ink to the polling places? Are those women attending school in Afghanistan going to send us a check? Where is the profit?"

Don't be an idiot. The profit is for Halliburton and other companies "rebuilding" Iraq. It's being paid for partly by Iraqi oil, but mostly by the American taxpayer. The whole war was basically a big excuse to enrich Bush's corporate buddies.

None of the profit Halliburton is making is paid for by Iraqis. The US is not making a profit here because all of the costs are paid for by the US, not anyone else. As for Iraqi oil, where's the beef? I haven't seen a drop of it; the Iraqi oil still isn't flowing because the insurgents keep sabotaging the oil facilities and pipelines. It would be nice if there was some oil coming in from Iraq because it would mean profits for Iraqis (which would help their country both because of revenue and jobs created) and hopefully lower fuel prices for everyone else.

Just when paying?

[GC]

Some airlines only allow you to do Online Check-in by confirming your identity with your credit card number.
Some express-check-in's require you to either insert your credit card to get your boarding pass printed (or your frequent flyer card).
If I want better fares by booking online I will have to use a credit card too, not seen any airlines accept Paypal etc...

In short it seems that to take advantage of any fast-track system that saves on man-power and hassle for both the customer or airline I now have to give up my life's credit history.

Glum.

Re:Just when paying?

[petes_PoV]

Given the number of invitations and pre-approved credit card forms I get in the post, it would be incredibly easy just to set up a "throwaway" CC account. Use it once for a ticket (same for an email account), pay the balance off in full - maybe in cash at the bank if you're really paranoid - and never use it again.

Repeat as necessary for each transatlantic trip, I'm sure I'll run out of the will to visit the USA before I run out of credit card invites.

Mutual legal assistance

[daveschroeder]

Guess I'll be the lone dissenting view, here...

Nothing is going to be "inspected" by US authorities, and if anything is "inspected", it's not at-will and not arbitrary.

This is an agreement for mutual legal assistance, and is a framework for submitting legal requests and subpoenas for information about an individual via established legal channels, as well as guidelines information to which US authorities are entitled from EU air carriers.

No one automatically has access to bank records or email accounts; a legal request must still be made to a bank or internet provider. This is a framework for making such requests to EU entities by the US.

Things like email address and forms of payment are part of the almost-two-decade-old Automated Targeting System (ATS), which uses metrics to attempt to determine in an automated fashion when an individual warrants further scrutiny. This is part of larger ongoing efforts to secure the information assessed by ATS.

If an email address is available, it is part of that set of information, among numerous other pieces of information. If something triggers an additional investigation, a legal request could, for example, be made to an internet service provider for the contents of an email account. Note that this is a court-ordered action, and not unlike a similar request that could be made by US authorities to a US company or entity; the difference, again, is that there is now a mechanism for the US uniformly making and EU entities responding to such requests.

Re:Mutual legal assistance

[anagama]

This is an agreement for mutual legal assistance, and is a framework for submitting legal requests and subpoenas for information about an individual via established legal channels, as well as guidelines information to which US authorities are entitled from EU air carriers.

Sort of like how telephone calls can be monitored only if certain procedures are followed ... oh wait...

fly to canada

[Anonymous Coward]

Instead of paying cash, fly to Canada or Mexico and then take a ground route into the US...

Re:fly to canada

[westlake]

Instead of paying cash, fly to Canada or Mexico and then take a ground route into the US.

as someone who lives on the U.S.-Canadian border. let me offer you some free advice: it ain't that easy. nothing is more likely to end in you spending some quality time with the friendly folks of the Border Patrol.

TO our european friends

[kimvette]

I would like to apologise on behalf of our idiotic politicians. Remember not all of us are Dubya-worshipping sheep, and that many of us think that American foreign policy is every bit as stupid as you think it is. Perhaps instead of visiting America and spending your tourist dollars here, you might decide to visit South America or Asia first, or perhaps Canada, and when you do write letters to politicians at the Federal and local levels here explaining that you really wanted to visit America, but cannot in good conscience spend your vacation dollars on a nation which is going backwards rather than forwards where civil and privacy rights are concerned, and you might want to voice your opinion on American-made goods as well. Dollars speak louder than anything else.

Re:TO our european friends

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

The funny thing is - when you KNOW someone is trying to drop your airplanes out of the air - and this isn't being paranoid - that big hole in the ground in New York supports the claim, then taking precautions to try and identify problem passengers BEFORE the plane takes off seems only prudent doesn't it?

Knee-jerkers like you always leave off the most important qualifier when talking about "taking precautions" - namely that of effectiveness. All the data-mining in the world won't stop terrorism because the characteristics that you can mine for produce way too many false positives to be effective.

Then realize that airplanes aren't the only possible target and that if you really want to apply these useless data-mining techniques to protecting all possible targets, we will have to go way past that dictionary definition of fascism to pull it off.

Re:TO our european friends

[Znork]

"Go look up the term "fascist.""

Ok. Here's the wikipedia description: "the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: authoritarianism, nationalism, militarism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, and anti-communism."

You were saying?

"we were part of the solution the last time such REAL nasty people took over Europe"

Most of the solution the last time were the Soviet communists under Stalin. Does that make the communists 'good', or that Europe should ignore the rest of what Stalin did?

The sad thing is that it'll be hard to find someone to free the Americans when they need help getting liberated.

Re:TO our european friends

[kocsonya]

There are many holes in Europe too. A handful of them due to terrorists. You possibly heard of ETA, IRA, the Bader Meinhof group, the Red Army Fraction and a handful of others, or possibly heard Lockerby been mentioned. Europe dealt with its terrorist problem in her own way. First of all, if the perceived or real threat from the terrorist causes, well, public terror, then they won. If it can serve as an excuse to a power-freak elite, driven mostly by greed, to install mechanisms for unchecked control of the population, then the terrorists won again. So Europe dealt with her terrorist problem trying to avoid instituting terror herself.

The mere fact that you openly declared "war on terror", formed the "coalition of the willing", invaded a sovereign country which had nothing to do with New York (but has oil, of course), the Patriot Act, Guantanamo, your declaring that international law does not apply to your freedom fighters against the axis of evil, so all that what you've done while delivering us from the evil was itself the proof that you lost that war too.
The war on (or possibly more aptly of) terror did not decrease the terrorist threat, it actually increased it because there are a lot more people who despise America than before. Incidentally it also increased the wealth a few people and their control over your society back at home, but of course that should not give us strange ideas about their motivations.
Nevertheless, you eroded and still eroding day after day the very democracy you so fervently try to force on to other nations, all in the name of fighting terrorism - the terrorist couldn't be happier.

As per fascism, it is not so far fetched. Here is a short fragment of what Wikipedia says about it:

"Many different characteristics are attributed to fascism by different scholars, but the following elements are usually seen as its integral parts: nationalism, authoritarianism, militarism, corporatism, anti-liberalism, and anti-communism."

Nationalism? Check. Authoritarianism? More and more. Militarism? Check. Corporatism? Double check. Anti-liberalism? Not yet, although there are attempts. Anti-communism? Triple check. You may not be there yet, but you are definitely heading to the right direction.

As per the solution for the European problem when those real nasty people wanted to take over the world, well, you were not part of the whole thing until Japan attacked you - before that you were happily doing business with those real nasty people. Now there were other really nasty people east of these nasty people and it seemed that the eastern nasty people do not mind sacrificing 20 million people to win over the western nasty people and thus turning most of Europe to a very disturbing colour indeed. So it seemed like a good investment to send a few hundred thousand people to prevent that, while in the same time gaining a lot of influence in Europe (most of which remained the desired colour).

No, they do not forget. They remeber all too well. Europe knows a lot more about wars than you do - since the Civil War, when you were fighting against yourself, you heven't had war on your soil. Europe knows what living in war means. Europeans don't have to watch epic Hollywood films to learn about it, it is enough if they ask their grandparents or often just their parents. People who lived through war tend to remember.

Pay in cash, get a cavity search

[Anonymous Coward]

Paying in cash is a sure way to single yourself out for inspection. Few people pay with large sums of cash these days, and for good reason.

or don't travel period

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks as though the EU will have similar access on US citizens. The entire world is descending into fascist utopia created by government think tanks and multinationals.

Flying to US? Take off your tin foil hat.

[deicide]

Paying with cash is a sure way to attract more attention to yourself, not less. Don't be silly, government is not after you.

Additionally, most credit cards provide with additional lost luggage and life insurance when you use them to buy your ticket.

Re:Flying to US? Take off your tin foil hat.

[Mock]

Don't be silly, government is not after you.

Tell that to Mahad Arar.
http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2006/10/torture d_canadian_on_no_fly_li.php

Places to avoid

[geoff lane]

I try hard not to travel to countries such as North Korea and USA where there is a basic assumption that I am a criminal and not to be trusted.

Re:Places to avoid

[VJ42]

I don't know where you're from, but I think you should add my country, the UK, to that list. It's only when people stop coming to these shores due to overly restrictive laws will our government realise the real damage that it's doing to this country. We have to hit them where it hurts: in the pocket.

Police State Logic

[HappySqurriel]

I could be wrong ...

But I thought the standard logic in Police States (we can argue whether the US is a Police state another time) was that if you were unwilling to lose your privacy you must have something to hide. Hypothetically speaking, if you (heaven forbid) were a minority which could perhaps be from a Terrorism supporting country and you payed by cash wouldn't that ensure that you got the long trip through security?

The UK

[Brandybuck]

Isn't the UK the nation that has video cameras monitoring the streets? Given it's pervasive CCTV surveillance of citizens, this news would seem like a breath of fresh enlightenment.

p.s. For all you knuckleheads out there, I am not agreeing with this move! I'm only commenting on the irony of the UK bitching about it.

privacy? What privacy?

[WeeBit]

This is just one of the many things the USA does to violate your privacy. There are many top secret areas too. If you find checking emails and such appalling, just imagine what is never disclosed. Pity that they do this to their own citizens, and there is hardly anyone balking at this. Power grants you many things. All you have to do is make up a valid excuse and people will fall for it. Fools are plentiful in the USA, or their are plenty of blind eyes. The thing is none of them will balk about privacy issues until it happens to them. Then it's too late.

This is screwy...

[__aaclcg7560]

Isn't paying in cash and flying one-way into the United States supposed to be a red flag? They're sure are taking the fun out of being a tourist pretending to be a terrorist pretending to be a tourist.

Re:This is screwy...

[norfolkboy]

What's an extra $500 if you're planning mass mayhem Make that an extra few thousand dollars, naturally, if you're going to fly into a building, you might as well fly first class - it's not like you'll be around to settle the credit card bill.

Agree - Don't like the requirements, stay home

[david.emery]

People have to acknowledge that (1) transportation has proven to be the real Achilles's Heel of modern society, and (2) no one is forcing you to travel to the US.

Now some of the government responses, both US and UK, have been very onerous. (Connected through Heathrow lately???)

I for one will not let the threat of terrorism stop me from travelling. And if I'm travelling internationally, I fully expect that in exchange for entry to another country, I'll have to forgoe privacy, etc. It's part of the trade for living in the modern world.

How many people who don't like these kinds of broad-band searches think that targeting/profiling is more acceptable?

    dave

Re:Agree - Don't like the requirements, stay home

[b0s0z0ku]

(1) transportation has proven to be the real Achilles's Heel of modern society

And it wasn't before 2001? Sure, there were hijackings, but nothing like 9/11! And something like 9/11 won't ever happen again - on 9/11 the passengers were complacent because they thought that it was a regular hijacking for ransom or transportation abroad - now that people remember 9/11, the next person to attempt to hijack a US plane will be beat to a bleeding crying pulp before the plane ever lands. Look at Richard "shoebomber" Reid - apart from getting arrested, he wasn't in quite the same condition at takeoff as at landing.

-b.

Workaround?

[PurifyYourMind]

I am not much of a flyer, but would it possible to fly to, say, a city bordering the U.S. in Canada or Mexico or an island, and then take a bus/train/small plane in? I guess it'd depend on your destination... if you're going to the middle of the continent, it would be too inconvenient. Sounds strange, but how would a potential terrorist do it? Seems terrorists and people who want to fiercely guard their privacy have overlapping interests in this case. :-/

umm,...

[zxnos]

dont you need, like, a passport or something to fly into and out of the u.s.? doesnt that sorta ruin your privacy? i mean, like, they know you are entering the country as soon as you get here.

sounds like they are trying to be informed about 'bob the nutcase who wants to kill you becuase you are different' before he hits the u.s. soil.

Midwest votes, not dollars.

[SuperBanana]

Dollars speak louder than anything else.

No they don't. Votes do. And more specifically, votes in the middle of the country.

• Ever been to the midwest? They have the nicest highways, "community centers", police and fire departments.
• Farmers are paid to grow crops people will never eat; food is thrown away by the ton, or bought by the government to rot in warehouses (powdered milk is a great example. Google that one.)
• Corn syrup/high fructose corn syrup has largely replaced sugar in much of America's "prepared" foods. It's horribly bad for you: because it's a slightly different sugar, your body's mechanisms for "I feel full" aren't triggered, and you over-eat.
• 10% of every drop of gasoline you put in your car's tank is ethanol that is produced by the most wasteful, expensive method: corn. Brazil is producing huge amounts of ethanol off of sugar cane, which produces eight times more energy. You can't import Brazilian ethanol, though. US won't allow it, because it endangers corn-based ethanol.
• Defense Department bases with little or no strategic value keep barely-educated young people "employed".
• You have the midwest to thank for SUV emissions exceptions: it was originally intended for farm vehicles. Had midwestern senators voted for emissions standards that would force ma+pa kettle to dump $1k into their tractor so it doesn't spew nitrous oxide and unburned hydrocarbons- they would find themselves unemployed next election.
• Midwesterners get hail that destroys their crops, and Uncle Sam is there to hand them a big fat check. Hail damages my house or destroys the car I need to use to get to work in the northeast, and Uncle Sam says "gee, sorry to hear that."

Whoever brings home the most bacon and has "good old American [Christian] [family] values", gets votes. In the midwest, the government works for you. Everywhere else, you work for the government. The south is much of the same- the Tennessee Valley Authority? West and Northeast tax dollars giving southerners cheap electricity. Air conditioning is a luxury: heat in the wintertime in the northeast IS NOT. Guess what happened last year? Republicans drastically cut fuel assistance programs in the northeast.

The majority of midwestern voters are ignorant and uneducated (especially in civics issues). Come election time, they don't give a damn about anything outside their town, or anyone except themselves and their family. Most of the reason they're all pissed off about the Iraq war now is because their sons and daughters are coming home in body bags. It has nothing to do with the fact that we arrogantly invaded a sovereign nation plunging it into a civil war...

Re:Midwest votes, not dollars.

[AHumbleOpinion]

"Dollars speak louder than anything else."

No they don't. Votes do. ...

You are absolutely correct. ...And more specifically, votes in the middle of the country. [snipped long winded nonsensical attacks on midwesterners]

Now you go off the deep end. As someone who has lived in dense urban areas of the east coast and the west coast I can testify that there is no shortage of dumb-ass sheep showing up at the polls, there is no shortage of pork projects (civil and military), etc. You merely seem to prefer your sheep of one political orientation over the other. Secondly, you seem woefully ignorant when discussing strategic military issues. Your suggestion that putting military assets in the middle of the country has no strategic value is nonsensical. The center of a nation *is* a strategic point, coastal assets are far more vulnerable. Finally, while pork projects certainly do exists bases in the midwest are not inherently pork. Coastal land has always been far more expensive to acquire, and selling such expensive land and relocating to inexpensive land makes financial sense. I'd say some local bases have stayed in coastal states as pork. In short, I think the pork is fairly evenly distributed across the nation.

Re:Midwest votes, not dollars.

[phantomlord]

Here we go with the regular slashdot elitism...

Ever been to the midwest? They have the nicest highways, "community centers", police and fire departments.

Now... I don't live in the midwest, I live in a rural part of NY that is a lot like the midwest (7200ish people over 41 square miles). We have one new fire department, one remodeled fire department and one decrepit fire department. All are volunteer organizations and by virtue of not having a huge paid fire staff, the town can afford to put money into buildings and equipment. Care to guess how much money is saved by having roughly 100 volunteer firefighters vs paying them state prevailing wage + retirement to go to two fires a day? THAT is what pays for the fire house.

My town has no police force of its own, just 15 year old substation. We rely on the county sheriff which we pay for through our property taxes. We don't need a significant police force when you consider there has been two murders since the end of WWII. The chief police action around here is traffic violations and as far as calls go, most are minor domestic disputes or petty vandalism. We have a per capita income of just under $20k and that includes corporate execs from the city who live out here to get privacy they just can't have in the suburbs.

We have nice roads and we have crappy roads. The less traffic a road gets, the better condition they're generally in. We also have seasonal dirt roads.

Our schools seem to be remodeled and extended every 5 years. They're BY FAR the biggest drain on our tax dollars. Between federal and state mandates, piss poor building planning and a teacher's union gone wild, my little community has a $30 million school budget for about 2500 kids. We see a 2-5% increase in school taxes every year and the kids have gone from fairly smart to dirt stupid as more and more parents move out here who don't care what their kids know or what problems they cause as long as they continue to pull in As... They grade on a curve now and a valedictorian I know from 5 years ago graduated with a 102 overall average but can't do basic trig.

As for your comments on farm subsidies, I'll simply say this much. We need to keep a certain amount of agriculture production in our country. If we were to become entirely dependent on outside food sources, you'd see the same problems with food that we see with oil today. You want Mexico or Brazil to have that kind of control over us? If we were cut off from oil tomorrow, we've got a decent reserve built up plus some domestic production to go into an emergency mode while we develop alternatives. It might not be pretty but we'd get through it. Have 80% of our food get cut off, good luck waiting months for the domestic stuff to start ripening again. Of course, you could stock extra food in warehouses and silos but then you're subsidizing foreign farmers. Put tariffs up to protect domestic production and you're still indirectly subsidizing farmers.

Defense Department bases with little or no strategic value keep barely-educated young people "employed".

When did Jon Cary start posting on slashdot? Do you know the military has a 99% high school+ education rate with many soldiers holding a bachelor's degree or better? Can we start doing test flights of new jets over LA? Test new bomb systems in downtown Seattle? Train demolition engineers under Boston? If Canada were to attack us for some reason, can we wait for planes from Las Vegas to get to Detroit? Are you going to pick up arms after the next Pearl Harbor or are you going to hope one of those "barely-educated young people" will protect your ass for you?

Midwesterners get hail that destroys their crops, and Uncle Sam is there to hand them a big fat check. Hail damages my house or destroys the car I need to use to get to work in the northeast, and Uncle Sam says "gee, sorry to hear that."

Hurricane floods New Orleans and Uncle Sam says "here's billions of dollars to rebuild in the same place

Re:sounds good

[animaal]

Stay home, too many foreigners here anyway, most of them here ILLEGALLY. We don't want you or your money. Go somewhere else. Who is the "We" you mention? When I visit the U.S.A. I find almost everybody to be extremely polite and welcoming.

Amazing

[Dachannien]

What amazes me is that we go to such (potential) lengths to inspect people who are entering the country legally, but we can't seem to deal with the zillions of people crossing into the US or overstaying their visas illegally.

What is the limit ?

[CoolCat23]

For now, the US require passengers to give away personal details, bank accounts, etc.
This is outrageous enough, but who knows what will be asked next ?
My DNA sample ? AIDS test ? My last choice to the last national elections ? If I have non-"acceptable" friends or lectures ?
How far will the Privacy Right be crushed, just to satisfy the US paranoia ?


Concerning the "don't like the rules, don't come here" comments, how would YOU feel if you were asked such private questions by, say, any north-African airlines ?
And if I'm *required* to fly to the US for work, must I lose my job to keep my private life by refusing to comply ?

Re:sounds good

[Bertie]

Maybe he's one of their legendarily cheerful and friendly immigration officers. That's pretty much the vibe I get from those fuckers every time I go there. It's a real shame, because as you say, once you get past them, people are overwhelmingly polite and helpful.

What else were you doing?

[rockhome]

You seriously expect people to believe that were arrested simply because of a bumper sticker?

That aside, you sound like exactly the kind of jackass that would provoke a police officer into arresting you by being nelligerent for absolutley no reason.

What's the real story?

Oh yeah, and I;ve never seen European police go unneccessarily ballistic.

Still Harmful and Outrageous

[twitter]

... government is not after you.

That's a lame excuse for violations of your rights and it does not save you from real harm. When you give government the power to intimidate and harass, they might use it on people who are fighting for your rights.

Some interesting reading:

1. Atlantic on MLK wiretap
2. A better article on the same subject, drawing parallels to current policy.
3. An LA Times article on just how bad things got.
4. UK harassment of nonviolent protesters
5. The UK police state. The power to abuse has not stopped crime or terrorism.
6. Secret prisons, how bad it has gotten today.
7. They will take your laptop, just a small reminder of how it works.

The list of current issues goes on and on. When you allow government to abuse you, it will.

Europeans: Come to Canada instead

[whitehatlurker]

We have much friendlier people, better scenery and fewer hurricanes.

Re:Eurowankers worried about wrong things, as usua

[VJ42]

What the EU lacks viz-a-viz the US is far worse: a free press. When truth is not a defence in a libel suit, you simply do not have a free press. I see you've never read a British newspaper, or even better Private Eye who's editor is the most sued man in Britain. I think you'll find that here, at least, the press is free, and even rags like the sun are less bias than faux News (despite being owned by the same person). as much as I dislike them I'd have the British Media over the US Media any day.

No. Don't pay in cash

[iminplaya]

It will get you tagged as a threat. I know from experience. It's one of the first things they ask. Before 9/11 they had to let me go. Now I'm not so sure. Only terrorists and smugglers use cash. Use a "throwaway" bank account. Keep your real one private. Just like email. Though I know it won't happen, a boycott of the states is in order.

Probably not a good idea to pay cash

[golodh]

I don't want to sound like an alarmist, but I strongly suspect that paying cash for a ticket will be enough to raise a yellow flag on your booking.

Why? Because it's different from the norm (most people like the convenience and safeguards that credit-card payments provide), and paying cash makes it more difficult to dig up information on you. And incidentally, since 9 out of 10 credit-card companies have their head office in the US, I suspect that all your European credit card transactions will be as accessible to the US authorities as those of US citizins.

So ... in all those bookings you'll have a mass of people who pay by credit-card, some who are in large accounts, some who purchase their tickets through a travel agency. All neat and traceable. And then you have a few percent who pay cash at the counter. Who would you pay special attention to?

It just seems so blindingly obvious that if you were tasked with screening people that you would pay special attention to anyone who seemed to be willing to go to some trouble (by paying cash) to be less easily traced. Although it's not probable that screeners will devote a lot of attention to everyone (screeners probably have a finite amount of resources), if your software can trace someone's credit card (and check where, when, and how the card has or hasn't been used over say the past 5 years ...), you will know a fair amount about the holder (ideally) and you may green-flag that person if nothing suspicious turns up. Just to try and boil down the list of passengers a little, and spend more time with the rest.

After all ... you don't *really* care if someone slips though to raise mayhem ... it's enough if you can show your boss that *you* did your job. And that's a lot easier to prove when someone slips through your computer thought it knew all about than someone it couldn't trace very well, right? So, I'd guess (but that's just a guess on my part) that this screening program contains a line like: "If Cash_Payment(passenger) Then Raise_Yellow_Flag(passenger)".

Re:sounds good

[Captain Splendid]

I concur on the immigration officers. I'm all for doing your job to a high degree of competency, but smile fucker, you're the welcome wagon, remember?

Re:sounds good

[cayenne8]

"I think he's speaking on behalf of Texas. Either that or France. :-D"

Or any other southwestern border state who is being overrun by illegals, and putting such a burden on the social infrastructure...schools, welfare, medical system....

Those tax paying citizens there are paying the price...at least that's what I hear from friends living there...

Just stop going to the UFS of A.

[liftphreaker]

Things have been getting steadily worse since 9-11, and the only reason I'd ever visit the United fascist states of amrika is on business, when my company arranges everything.

Fingerprints aside, the fact that you can't lock your luggage (or get the locks smashed by luggage manhandlers) is enough of a deterrent not to go to the US.

Freedom for the people? Hmmm let's see...
0. Torture, indefinite detention and abuse? Check.
1. Warrantless wiretapping, reading your emails? Check
2. The authority to detain and arrest anyone at any place without charge? Check.
3. Freedom of speech squashed? Check.
4. The feds can bust into your house at any time and seize anything they like? Probably put you in the slammer as well? Check.
5. Speak against the republicans and get your ass busted in 15 minutes? Check.
6. No fly list? Check.
7. Tasers for anyone who has the balls to stand up for themselves? Check.
8. One totally brainf***ed legal system? Check.

No thanks, I will pass. The last time I visited the US on "pleasure" was in 1999.

farm subsidies

[falconwolf]

If we were to become entirely dependent on outside food sources, you'd see the same problems with food that we see with oil today. You want Mexico or Brazil to have that kind of control over us?

This is exactly what is happening in Mexico, and why we have so many "illegal immigrants" trying to get into the US. Because of farm subsidies to big agrobusinesses in the US and NAFTA, they are able to ship and sale food to Mexico cheaper than Mexican farmers can grow it. This drives Mexican farmers off their farms and into Mexican cites as well as north to the US. Then those who go into Mexican cites drive others north as well.

Falcon

We Need a Zombie-Version of Gerald Ford....

[rickshaf]

Too bad the late President Gerald Ford couldn't somehow be brought back as a zombie, given his postumously-published comments about how little he thought of President Bush's violation of Americans' privacy rights. For that matter, I wonder why this honest and forthright man couldn't have summoned the courage to express his opinion of Mr. Bush's programs while he was still alive!