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North Korea's Secret Biochemical Arsenal
mattnyc99 writes "Popular Mechanics has an in-depth report on North Korea's biological and chemical weapons stock, which has been developed in secret and has gone largely unnoticed amidst the country's nuke threat. From the article: 'North Korea's Chemical and Bioweapons (CBW) program appears to be modeled on that of the former Soviet Union, which covertly constructed a massive biological weapons infrastructure within the shell of a civilian research organization called Biopreparat. Inside Biopreparat, the Soviets developed deadly agents that included weaponized forms of anthrax and pneumonic plague. Intelligence reports from the United States and South Korea list anthrax, smallpox, pneumonic plague, cholera and botulism toxins as leading components of North Korea's bioweapons projects.' "
We will be very, very angry with you North Korea and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.
*DrugCheese rants*
"I suppose there'll be a war now, hm? All that running around and shooting one another. You'd think that sooner or later, it would go out of fashion."
- Londo Mollari
Great, one more country has one more way of killing several large number of people in one go.
One would think that sooner or later we'd stop this crap.
Sorry, just a little frustrated with the fact that every time I have looked at news the past week, there is killing and murder and unrest everywhere. Bah.
So could we replace the CIA with the staff from Popular Mechanics?
What? ®
I'm not at all surprised that NK has biochemical facilities and research, but I'm more interested in how PM found out specific details about it. That would be a better question.
remind me, is this a dupe posting?
Popular Mechanics is known for its deep knowlege North Korean technology.
By the way Popular Mechnaics, where is my flying car or personal submarine?
P226
A nuke is just one egg in a basket. Biochemical weapons do have their advantages, i.e. you can't expose some potential "refugees" with radiation and then have them "escape" from your side of the border to freedom. Give refugees something nasty like small pox though, and hypothetically, that'd be a lot cheaper and possibly more effective than a nuke.
Well, to quote the late Bill Hicks...
George Bush: "We know they've got weapons of mass destruction"
Public: "How do you know?"
George: "Uhh... we looked at the reciept..."
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't popular mechanics have a feature article on Iraq's WMDs a few years ago?
Biological - Not really all that useful. There's too much danger of it infecting your people.
Chemical - Used to restrict the enemy's access to terrain which forces him to attack along routes you've selected or require him to attack wearing protective suits. Chemicals can also be used to "soften" a target before your own troops attack.
Nuclear - Big boom. Lots of damage.
So, I can see them working on chemical weapons and nukes. But biological weapons make no sense for them. Particularly when the "enemy" is only 10 miles across the border from them.
Come to think of it, i like biochemical weapons a lot more than nukes: this way, we can wipe our shitty selves out of this world while still maintaining it intact, since other life forms don't really give a shit to Ebola, AIDS or other dumb monkey weapons...
I don't feel like it...
Although, China has been making moves to distance themselves from N.K. recently. but until they do, they'll be off limits. Both of my grandfathers fought in the last Korean war, and as one of them put it "Frequently, we'd run out of machine gun bullets before they ran out of troops to throw at us"
How long 'til Bush Bashing is considered Karma Whoring? God knows that being a conservative is one way ticket to "Troll", "Flamebait" and my all time favorite, "Overrated".
Back to your comment:
Funny... a bioweapons program in N. Korea? With nukes and everything? Real, tangible weapons of mass destruction? With a prosperous true democracy only minutes away? Where's the sabre-rattling? Why hasn't Colin Powell been dispatched to the UN? How come Condi's not talking about mushroom clouds?
Well, if Bush hadn't received so much shit for the last war, he might be a bit more willing to go at it again. I'm sure the last thing the administration wants to give you guys another reason to protest for impeachment.
Also, and more importantly, there's a boat-load in S. Korea and Japan that are quietly praying the problem will go away. The governments in these countries don't want us to do anything about it right now because they know their cities will either glow in the dark or sit under a cloud of poisonous fumes. On the other hand, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia wanted Saddam Hussein gone and encouraged us to take action.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
You're 100% correct that we're fairly strapped for cash because of Iraq, as Bush has spent the combined budget for a full-fledged moon colony and a manned Mars expedition (which he promised in what, 2001? 2002?) in Iraq, with far less impressive results, but do you really think we've been hunting Osama bin Laden for even the last three or four years? Give me a break. Some people believe he may have even died of natural causes in 2002 but that sounds a bit far-fetched.
Just our luck that Bush's dad "had it out" with the one secular Arab nation in the Middle East, with the most advanced womens' rights, that didn't directly support al Qaeda, the one that didn't have any nuclear proliferation capabilities, as opposed to Pakistan, India, Iran, and North Korea, and as I imagine, many more in the future. Boomers are going to have childhood flashbacks of Bert the Turtle ducking and covering for the foreseeable future.
It's also worth noting that North Korea has one of the largest armies in the world (bigger than the People's Republic of China if you count reserves!), and if they do indeed possess chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, this would be very different from invading a sandbox that couldn't even fight off Iran (with our help).
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.
Yet there it is again. More lying claims of WMDs designed to incite the US into waging an unjustified war against (insert country name here).
You'd have a point, except it is China, Japan and S. Korea making the claims. Are they all lying too?
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Oh, please. The stuff we have stashed away makes standard weaponized anthrax and plague look like Romper Room.
Well, if Bush hadn't received so much shit for the last war, he might be a bit more willing to go at it again. I'm sure the last thing the administration wants to give you guys another reason to protest for impeachment.
Wait, wait, wait.... You're blaming the left wing (and centrists, too, for that matter) for trying to hold Bush accountable for all of the lying and whatnot? Perhaps if his administration hadn't done it with Iraq, he wouldn't be blamed for it, and he'd be more willing to go after North Korea. Don't try to pass the blame - Bush and his administration are the ones who cried wolf, it's not the townspeoples' fault that they're not rushing in to save him this time.
My thoughts exactly, maybe if any of the myriad and ever-shifting reasons given as justification for the Iraq war were true then people wouldn't be giving this administration "so much shit for the last war."
:/ Still, the hypocracy is deep with this one.
Although unfortunately with the situation in N. Korea there is the added problem that S. Korea is basically a hostage (well within missle range), and Seoul with its ten million or so citizens will likely face annihilation should hostilities begin in the region.
Also of note, the National Defense Authorization Act passed in October 2006 required Bush to appoint a Policy Coordinator to deal directly with N.K. issues within 60 days, that date has come and gone and the post remains unfilled.
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
Wait, wait, wait.... You're blaming the left wing (and centrists, too, for that matter) for trying to hold Bush accountable for all of the lying and whatnot? Perhaps if his administration hadn't done it with Iraq, he wouldn't be blamed for it, and he'd be more willing to go after North Korea. Don't try to pass the blame - Bush and his administration are the ones who cried wolf, it's not the townspeoples' fault that they're not rushing in to save him this time.
Blame the intelligence services for all of the lying and whatnot as it was more that Bush that thought Iraq had NEW WMD's. (We found plenty of the old ones that had been "destroyed", but not the stockpiles required to make the headlines.) And, quite frankly, it wasn't just the WMD's. It was the soon to be disbanded Oil for food program, the firing on American and allied planes and soldiers, the assassination attempt of a former US President, and the 1.5 million innocent people killed by Hussein. Of course we need not forget Putin telling GWB that Russian intel believed that Iraq was planning an attack in the US. After all the flack that GWB took for not stopping 9-11 when there was intel, no matter how vague (Presidential Daily Brief: Al Qaeda determined to attack in the US), I understand why we attacked Iraq. If you bashed Bush for not stopping 9-11, then you really can't honestly bash him for attacking Iraq.
Besides, since we have the same intel on N. Korea that we have on Iraq, why would you support attacking N. Korea and NOT support attacking Iraq?
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Known as the "Zapp Brannigan Manuever"
How does their alleged stock ( in much the same vain as Iraq's alleged stock ) compare to the real stockpile that the US actively develops?
... ( and Dubya makes a fine goose ) ...
The simple fact is that all countries see these kinds of weapons as not only useful deterrents, but necessary deterrents. Consider, for example, how things would have played out differently if Iraq had possessed the nuclear ( or newkilla weapons as Dubya and half of the US pronounce it ), chemical and biological weapons that the US was claiming they had. The would have been no invasion, or if there had, there would have been very, very serious consequences, not only for US and coalition-of-the-killing troups, but for US citizens as well.
This is what proliferation is all about. This is why the US is so hypocritical when it demands that all others renounce WOMD, terrorism and such. They are the biggest perpetrators, and force everyone else's hand. Whether you agree with the politics of the other states involved or not ( and I'm certainly no fan of North Korea ), you have to look at it from their point of view. Having a US armed to the teeth with WOMD, and being the biggest terrorist around, it makes good sense to get some serious arsenal of your own. What's good for the goose
So you're drinking the kool-aid and blaming the "intelligence failures" on the intelligence services? Not the administration, who attempted to discredit Valerie Plame's husband and his report that there was nothing to the Nigerian yellowcake story by outing her as a spy? And failed to listen to Hans Blix, who "accused the U.S. and British governments of dramatising the threat of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, in order to strengthen the case for the 2003 war against the regime of Saddam Hussein." (from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Blix ). Maybe you should just admit that this was what Bush wanted, he did everything he could to make it happen, and it's his fault.
I must have missed the memo. When did Saddam Hussein announce the successful test of a nuclear bomb, and when did seismographs worldwide confirm this?
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Seoul is within *artillery* range of NK and NK has the capacity to bombard it with hundreds of thousands of rounds of artillery *per hour* until that capacity is destroyed. On the first day of fighting, there would probably be more than a million SK casualties. And these would be *first-world citizen* casualties, not third-world casualties taht nobody cares about. This is why there has not been and will not be an invasion of NK. The costs would be too high, even if NK didn't have nukes or bio-chems.
"more IUDs and bomb belts."
That does sound nasty, where exactly are they sticking those IUDS ?
Indecision is the key to flexibility.
Let's not rewrite history. France and Russia were also convinced that Saddam had WMD. They just disagreed with the US on how to deal with it. And not from any sense of right or wrong but because they had significant "Big Business" interests in Iraq.
There's no alternative. We must hit North Korea with a surprise nuclear attack. Many nukes will be required to take out all chemical and biological facilities and sterilise them.
It will be a short and simple war, unlike Iraq. We won't send a single person into combat. But 100-200 nuclear MIRVs will be sent on the first strike.
The longer we wait the more dangerous NK becomes. They have probably already moved CBW to U.S. and European cities.
Time to strike.
Where is that f*cking evidence...
The uber responsible goverment of USA sell that chemical weapons to Saddam to take down Islamic Iran Regime in 1980's. That chemical weapons used against Iran and Kurds sell by Rumsfield himself...
There was no chemical weapon production plant in Iraq, no one found it. If they found it where is the evidence ?
USA goverment broke down the IRAQ goverment, if you haven't got instant replacement, you cannot change goverment like this. Entire country will collapsed...
Current status of IRAQ was CIVIL WAR and this was generated by Responsible George W. Bush regime.
Pleas, do not F.U.D us. No one takes...
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
An accidental outbreak of smallpox in your army and you're suddenly far more vulnerable than before.
Yeah! I mean if americans had listened to him, they wouldn't have even GONE to iraq. What a dumbass!
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2771492&page=1
If that happens, imagine the 'Always Low Prices!' at Walmart. They'd skyrocket from dirt cheap to just plain cheap.
I really don't want to read in the news one day that North Korea has been systematicly poisoning our kids with Happy Meal toys fabricated from some sort of "new" plastic.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
The hidden gulag: Reports leak out of atrocities at North Korean labor camps
Auschwitz Under Our Noses
A WELL-FOUNDED FEAR: PUNISHMENT AND LABOR CAMPS IN NORTH KOREA
Death and terror in North Korea's gulags
Comparative Analysis of Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany, the Former Soviet Union and North Korea
An Auschwitz in Korea
It's baffling to me why a country that has consistently and fairly been compared with Nazi Germany, to the point of concentration camps and illegal medical experimentation, has been allowed to exist for this long. Drudge reported this morning that they're prepping another nuke test, and it's a well-known fact that they've been developing chem and bio weapons for years. A new Hitler has risen, and we are so busy looking elsewhere that we either haven't noticed or don't care.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
...or get rid of all of Courtney Cox's wrinkles.
ant.
North Korea's military capabilities (and in particular its nuclear, biological and chemical capabilities) are irrelevant, because they will never be used against NK's immensely richer and more powerful neighbours and rivals.
All that matters is what these capabilities are perceived to be, and how these perceptions are utilised in propaganda.
It is clear from history (particularly recent Iraqi history) that there are three possible scenarios:
From this, we can see that if NK wants peace, they need to appear to be in scenario 1 or 2, that is to say, to appear to have very few weapons or very many. Of these two options, the cheapest is number 1.
However, Iraq shows us that having no WMDs and not being a threat is no guarantee of not being perceived as a threat. Intelligence will simply be fabricated. There, option 1 is taken away from the NK régime.
This leaves scenario 3 (Cold War) as a way of securing peace. Therefore, the NK régime should logically build up as large an arsenal of dangerous weapons as it possibly can. Since war is bad for the world in general, it follows that all responsible world citizens should want the terrible NK régime to accumulate such a stockpile, as it is the only thing that will stop Washington hawks initiating a bloodbath.
Furthermore, the NK régime should build this stockpile as fast as possible, in order to shorten as much as possible the intermediate stage in which they have enough weapons to be presented as a threat, but don't actually have enough to defend the country.
The US military is tied up in Iraq maintaining the puppet state that it has established there, and public support for another aggressive war would be very low right now. If the NK régime waits another five or ten years, the US régime may have been able to recover from Iraq in financial, military and propaganda terms, and be ready to liberate NK by means of mass annihilation. For these reasons, rapid armament for NK is particularly urgent and important for world peace.
Yes, this is a major reason to have hope. It may be that NK already has enough conventional military capacity to be perceived to be too dangerous to attack. However, is it enough to stop the maniacs who smashed Iraq? I would advise NK to accumulate a bit more conventional weaponry, and perhaps make a nuke or two, plus several fake nukes. Bio-chemical weapons are probably not worth making, but they would benefit from publicly announcing that their agents have planted anthrax, plague, sarin gas, etc in remote-controlled devices in every South Korean city, and that these would detonate even if the US wiped out all NK artillery (and population) in a surprise attack.
Nice to see I ignited a flamewar. ;)
I honestly try to stay above the flames. Unfortunately BushGood=Flamebait and BushSux=Insightful here on slash. I think I've done a fair job siting everything I've said to others who simply reply with "So you're drinking the kool-aid and blaming the "intelligence failures" on the intelligence services?" (Uh yeah! Should I blame the Highway Dept or HUD? That Kool-Aid comment got modded up, btw)
As to the rest of your post, yeah, hindsight is 20/20. Unfortunately, most intelligence information isn't released real time so hindsight is only way that those of us without clearance will ever get to see it. I try my best to look back and put myself in the shoes of those in charge. I get my information for sources on both sides. I'm a member of DailyKos as well as LittleGreenFootballs. I watch Fox News and PBS and judge accordingly.
As to Cheney's ties with Halliburton, yeah, it looks suspicious, damn suspicious. But having grown up in Houston and having know Halliburton employees, I can tell you that they are an energy company like Disney is a theme-park company. They are more of a management company. It's not Halliburton employees rebuilding the water plants in Iraq, it's some other company hired by Halliburton. Halliburton is the only company in the world that can do what they do (like rebuild an entire country). That's why there were no other bids. Cheney worked there, he knows what the company can do and how to get the shit done. While it still looks bad, rest assured that all of Cheney's (and Bush's) money is in a blind trust. It may be in Halliburton, it may not. Most likely, it is in some sort of conservative mutual fund because no trust manager wants to tell the VP that he lost all of his money!
Again, your comment was well said!
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Not hard to vaccinate your army against smallpox. I'd be surprised if even North Korea doesn't do it. It's not exactly a high-tech vaccine these days.
In fact, if you're a country looking to get rid of some "surplus" population, not to mention keep your military's grip firm on the populace, a carefully engineered outbreak wouldn't be a bad way of doing it. You vaccinate the folks you want to keep around, and let God sort out the rest.
Of course, North Korea's government seems to do just fine using famine as it is, so I doubt they really need smallpox. Why bother, when you can just starve the peasants into submission?
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I'm glad they managed to uncover this secret which has gone largely unnoticed in the wake of their recent nuclear ambitions... Though it has been public knowledge that nK has been working on both Biological and Chemical weapons since the 1960s!
Note:
South Korea: Monthly on DPRK Weapons of Mass Destruction : FBIS-EAS-98-325 : 21 Nov 1998
Or don't even bother with the South Koreans and let's see what the official US government stance on this issue is:
"As we have indicated before, it is our assessment that North Korea has an active biological weapons program and is capable of producing and delivering via munitions a wide variety of chemical and biological agents, in violation of the Biological Weapons Convention."
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/15114.htm
Released on November 13, 2002
I know a secret as well, don't tell anyone, but the Soviet Union fell!
I had a political science prof in college who made an interesting point about the war in Iraq. He argued that the war is NOT about oil and never was, reasoning that we could access the oil by corrupt dealings and underhanded collaboration with Hussein.
Instead, he believed that Bush genuinely believed that God told him to bring democracy to the country, and that he was obligated to obey.
I don't know whether I agree with the professor, but if this is true then that mindset is far, far scarier than an invasion for oil.
Now try spreading 2lbs. of botulin toxin across the entire planet.
Hmmm. You seem to have come up with a new concept: homeopathic bioweapons. Congratulations!
Mart"I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?