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North Korea's Secret Biochemical Arsenal
mattnyc99 writes "Popular Mechanics has an in-depth report on North Korea's biological and chemical weapons stock, which has been developed in secret and has gone largely unnoticed amidst the country's nuke threat. From the article: 'North Korea's Chemical and Bioweapons (CBW) program appears to be modeled on that of the former Soviet Union, which covertly constructed a massive biological weapons infrastructure within the shell of a civilian research organization called Biopreparat. Inside Biopreparat, the Soviets developed deadly agents that included weaponized forms of anthrax and pneumonic plague. Intelligence reports from the United States and South Korea list anthrax, smallpox, pneumonic plague, cholera and botulism toxins as leading components of North Korea's bioweapons projects.' "
We will be very, very angry with you North Korea and we will write you a letter, telling you how angry we are.
*DrugCheese rants*
To intimidate others from attack while you develop your nuclear program? One nuke trumps all the bio.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B - D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
"I suppose there'll be a war now, hm? All that running around and shooting one another. You'd think that sooner or later, it would go out of fashion."
- Londo Mollari
Great, one more country has one more way of killing several large number of people in one go.
One would think that sooner or later we'd stop this crap.
Sorry, just a little frustrated with the fact that every time I have looked at news the past week, there is killing and murder and unrest everywhere. Bah.
So could we replace the CIA with the staff from Popular Mechanics?
What? ®
Funny... a bioweapons program in N. Korea? With nukes and everything? Real, tangible weapons of mass destruction? With a prosperous true democracy only minutes away? Where's the sabre-rattling? Why hasn't Colin Powell been dispatched to the UN? How come Condi's not talking about mushroom clouds?
Yeah, Iraq had nothing to do with Bush's daddy.
Danke tres mucho, tovarishch.
remind me, is this a dupe posting?
I mean come on... so they have a nuke (or claim to), why overkill? But, on the conspiracy side of things, they could have some super bug that the public won't be told about, and use that as some sort of leverage. God knows that science in the US has been declining. (I gotta wonder if god will give me brownie points for that statement)
When asked for comment Kim Jong declined to give details, respoding:
"You have any idea how fucking buzy I am?"
Sweet informative mod.
Those are war drums i hear beating. The propeganda offensive has been underway for years - The military one cant be too far behind.
Popular Mechanics is known for its deep knowlege North Korean technology.
By the way Popular Mechnaics, where is my flying car or personal submarine?
P226
While this is unfortunate and *may* add to instability in the region, I smell a couple of rats.
1. Now that today's bad guy is doing it how is it different than say (insert former bad-country-now-fighting-the-war-on-terrr here) doing it?
2. What special inroad does popular mechanics have in NORTH korea? Most objective analysts would have a hard time verifying it and I'd like to hear it from them.
3. Does anyone recall the long and sordid history of planted stories, media contacts and testimony in the U.S. in order to achieve a political end?
I'm weary of propaganda posing as stories to the point of disbelief. This one is a perfect example.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't popular mechanics have a feature article on Iraq's WMDs a few years ago?
Biological - Not really all that useful. There's too much danger of it infecting your people.
Chemical - Used to restrict the enemy's access to terrain which forces him to attack along routes you've selected or require him to attack wearing protective suits. Chemicals can also be used to "soften" a target before your own troops attack.
Nuclear - Big boom. Lots of damage.
So, I can see them working on chemical weapons and nukes. But biological weapons make no sense for them. Particularly when the "enemy" is only 10 miles across the border from them.
Come to think of it, i like biochemical weapons a lot more than nukes: this way, we can wipe our shitty selves out of this world while still maintaining it intact, since other life forms don't really give a shit to Ebola, AIDS or other dumb monkey weapons...
I don't feel like it...
Are you really suggesting to just stop hunting for Bin Laden? Ridiculous.
You're 100% correct that we're fairly strapped for cash because of Iraq, as Bush has spent the combined budget for a full-fledged moon colony and a manned Mars expedition (which he promised in what, 2001? 2002?) in Iraq, with far less impressive results, but do you really think we've been hunting Osama bin Laden for even the last three or four years? Give me a break. Some people believe he may have even died of natural causes in 2002 but that sounds a bit far-fetched.
Just our luck that Bush's dad "had it out" with the one secular Arab nation in the Middle East, with the most advanced womens' rights, that didn't directly support al Qaeda, the one that didn't have any nuclear proliferation capabilities, as opposed to Pakistan, India, Iran, and North Korea, and as I imagine, many more in the future. Boomers are going to have childhood flashbacks of Bert the Turtle ducking and covering for the foreseeable future.
It's also worth noting that North Korea has one of the largest armies in the world (bigger than the People's Republic of China if you count reserves!), and if they do indeed possess chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, this would be very different from invading a sandbox that couldn't even fight off Iran (with our help).
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.
Fine :), the exact quote from wikipedia (he was talking about desert storm)...
... we looked at the receipts."
You know we armed Iraq. I wondered about that too, you know. During the Persian Gulf war, those intelligence reports would come out:
"Iraq: incredible weapons - incredible weapons."
"How do you know that?"
"Uh, well
Yet there it is again. More lying claims of WMDs designed to incite the US into waging an unjustified war against (insert country name here).
You'd have a point, except it is China, Japan and S. Korea making the claims. Are they all lying too?
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
Oh, please. The stuff we have stashed away makes standard weaponized anthrax and plague look like Romper Room.
Before the proof of WMD comes in the form of a cough and runny nose.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
It'd be a long, wet drive home.....flying or maybe a nice cruise sounds more appealing.
Some bring out the best in others, some the worst. Some bring out far more.
How does their alleged stock ( in much the same vain as Iraq's alleged stock ) compare to the real stockpile that the US actively develops?
... ( and Dubya makes a fine goose ) ...
The simple fact is that all countries see these kinds of weapons as not only useful deterrents, but necessary deterrents. Consider, for example, how things would have played out differently if Iraq had possessed the nuclear ( or newkilla weapons as Dubya and half of the US pronounce it ), chemical and biological weapons that the US was claiming they had. The would have been no invasion, or if there had, there would have been very, very serious consequences, not only for US and coalition-of-the-killing troups, but for US citizens as well.
This is what proliferation is all about. This is why the US is so hypocritical when it demands that all others renounce WOMD, terrorism and such. They are the biggest perpetrators, and force everyone else's hand. Whether you agree with the politics of the other states involved or not ( and I'm certainly no fan of North Korea ), you have to look at it from their point of view. Having a US armed to the teeth with WOMD, and being the biggest terrorist around, it makes good sense to get some serious arsenal of your own. What's good for the goose
"more IUDs and bomb belts."
That does sound nasty, where exactly are they sticking those IUDS ?
Indecision is the key to flexibility.
Let's not rewrite history. France and Russia were also convinced that Saddam had WMD. They just disagreed with the US on how to deal with it. And not from any sense of right or wrong but because they had significant "Big Business" interests in Iraq.
As someone who works as a systems contractor destroying the U.S. chemical weapons stockpiles, I can tell you it doesn't take much of this stuff to take out large portions. Even if they don't achieve total lethality, they will permanently disable huge portions of the population should they perfect their ICBMs. I will make a prediction that if we ever get out of Iraq, it will be time for a second Korean war.
There's no alternative. We must hit North Korea with a surprise nuclear attack. Many nukes will be required to take out all chemical and biological facilities and sterilise them.
It will be a short and simple war, unlike Iraq. We won't send a single person into combat. But 100-200 nuclear MIRVs will be sent on the first strike.
The longer we wait the more dangerous NK becomes. They have probably already moved CBW to U.S. and European cities.
Time to strike.
Biological weapons can (usually) be transmitted from person to person. Infect 1 person and he can infect 1,000 others. The disease breeds inside the victim.
Radiation is only a threat to those handling the materials.
Chemicals are a bigger threat than radiation, but less than biological. And chemical spills are usually easy to see or the effects are noticed quickly. Chemical weapons are very similar to the pesticides that we use.
Where is that f*cking evidence...
The uber responsible goverment of USA sell that chemical weapons to Saddam to take down Islamic Iran Regime in 1980's. That chemical weapons used against Iran and Kurds sell by Rumsfield himself...
There was no chemical weapon production plant in Iraq, no one found it. If they found it where is the evidence ?
USA goverment broke down the IRAQ goverment, if you haven't got instant replacement, you cannot change goverment like this. Entire country will collapsed...
Current status of IRAQ was CIVIL WAR and this was generated by Responsible George W. Bush regime.
Pleas, do not F.U.D us. No one takes...
[My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
An accidental outbreak of smallpox in your army and you're suddenly far more vulnerable than before.
We shall probably issue a Joint Memorandum suggesting a mild disapproval of you!"
-- Punch magazine, in 1935, on the ineffectual response of Britain and France to the Abyssinian crisis The cartoon, found on an ebay auction
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
Yeah! I mean if americans had listened to him, they wouldn't have even GONE to iraq. What a dumbass!
I'll just use my special getting high powers one more time...
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2771492&page=1
Given that there is definitive proof of North Korean WMDs (they didn't fake that nuke test), there won't be a traditional land invasion of that country. If it comes time to take out Kim Jong Il, the attack will consist of special forces and a nuclear backup plan.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure it would be impossible for the US to do it any other way, unless North Korea went insane, invaded South Korea and somehow managed to get themselves dug in pretty good within a few days' time.
I'm pretty sure a lot of people would move to Canada faster than you can say "Hello, Selective Service!"
I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.
The USA does not have offical stocks of biological weapons. All development of biological weapons was stopped by President Nixon in 1969.
One may argue that the various psychopathic presidents that we have had then have reactivated the biowarfare programs secretly. But I don't believe that this is so. Millions of people in the military and private defense industries don't like bioweapons and wouldn't keep secret programs operating secretly. It has been alleged but never proven that AIDS was the result of a secret biowarfare program in the 1970s. If this were so then there would be proof independent and verifiable available by now.
The Soviets, on the other hand, have had secret and illegal (violation of international treaties) biowar programs such as BIOPREPARAT in operation until the late 1980s. British PM Thatcher demanded that they be ended and dismantled under international supervision. The Soviets and the Russians after the end of the USSR have complied. There may be remaining stockpiles that weren't destroyed of anthrax, plague, and, worst of all, smallpox in private hands. But these stockpiles, should they exist, are illegal and the current Russian government would not hesitate to kill anyone that they found possessing them.
The Cold War is over and it is time to leave the Cold War mentality behind; even as a joke. Such thinking that it is OK to possess or create weapons of unbelievable destructive power because the evil other side has them is a perfect example of Cold War mentality that must be left in the horrific history of the 20th century.
Psychopathic morons like the rulers of North Korea belong back in the 20th century also. Or allowed to reign over their own little patch of hell until the time comes that they pass from the earth.
Stopping hunting for him would imply that they ever started.
(Whisper it: he's dead. Has been for years. But they need a bogeyman, an Immanuel Goldstein, and he's the man in the frame)
I really don't want to read in the news one day that North Korea has been systematicly poisoning our kids with Happy Meal toys fabricated from some sort of "new" plastic.
Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
The hidden gulag: Reports leak out of atrocities at North Korean labor camps
Auschwitz Under Our Noses
A WELL-FOUNDED FEAR: PUNISHMENT AND LABOR CAMPS IN NORTH KOREA
Death and terror in North Korea's gulags
Comparative Analysis of Concentration Camps in Nazi Germany, the Former Soviet Union and North Korea
An Auschwitz in Korea
It's baffling to me why a country that has consistently and fairly been compared with Nazi Germany, to the point of concentration camps and illegal medical experimentation, has been allowed to exist for this long. Drudge reported this morning that they're prepping another nuke test, and it's a well-known fact that they've been developing chem and bio weapons for years. A new Hitler has risen, and we are so busy looking elsewhere that we either haven't noticed or don't care.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
Whilst many people who do the fighting passionately belive in a cause/ideology that is pushed by their leaders. The wars themselves are (as they have always been) about territorial influence (a democratic ME, one China, ect) and control of resources (oil in particular). The difference today is found in the efficientcy of the weapons. "All out war" between two modern and well armed nations is likely to vapourise the primary warmongers on both sides within the first few hours/days.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Actually there's this saying we have in Texas. Fool me once... shame on you. Fool me twice... and you can't get fooled again.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I have always said that tech geeks are the lynch-pins and keyholders of perceived reality in this world. Engineers and scientists and smart people who have a vested interest in the use of critical thinking and analysis, are the ones who determine what we believe in as a culture, they determine our technology and therefore the very shape of our reality. As such, ENORMOUS amounts of mind-programming are aimed at the scientifically inclined. (They already have the religious bagged up for delivery.)
It starts in school, where the paradigm is set up to make sure that geeks are inhibited through social punishment. This makes them seek love from teachers and to define themselves by their accomplishments in knowledge. The problem with seeking approval from the gate keepers of knowledge, (teachers), is that teachers have state-implemented curriculums to teach, filled with lies and various bits of twisted and highly limiting 'knowledge'.
Thus, with the geek's sense of self-worth tied almost inextricably to the little gold stars they received for agreeing with authority, huge blind spots are hard-wired into their awareness from a young age. It is thus possible to direct the path, not just of technology, but of the science and research which are the underpinnings of our whole reality.
If you don't want people to be aware of the spirit or of energy or of UFO's or of our ancient history, (do you feel that jolt of internal revulsion which accompanies the reading of each of those terms? That's your programming talking.), then you implement a social engineering system to lock down the very people who could take that knowledge and study it properly according to the tenets of science. Because if you do not, the knowledge uncovered gives the power to become aware of our hidden oppressors and to resist them; not with cool laser guns, but with the simple awareness of higher realms of existence and the ability to choose our daily actions with knowledge and thus make decisions which benefit humanity and not those who farm humanity, sowing suffering. Because in the end, it's all about the soul, and they do not want you to even believe you have one, let alone realize that to work on strengthening it is the way to oppose them.
So Popular Mechanics is a logical choice for propaganda. Everybody else in our culture is far easier to lie to and lead into war and general stupidity. So they use a magazine which us geeks loved as kids, (who didn't want their own personal submarine or flying car or pocket computer?), to feed us the critical lies at the critical times.
Fortunately, the population isn't so dumb these days, but the imbeciles over at Popular Mechanics can be counted on to use the most retarded and easily refuted logic. Bad guys are selfish, they always take the route of least resistance, which means they don't push themselves to become smart enough to fool people who do push themselves to learn. Funny that.
-FL
North Korea's military capabilities (and in particular its nuclear, biological and chemical capabilities) are irrelevant, because they will never be used against NK's immensely richer and more powerful neighbours and rivals.
All that matters is what these capabilities are perceived to be, and how these perceptions are utilised in propaganda.
It is clear from history (particularly recent Iraqi history) that there are three possible scenarios:
From this, we can see that if NK wants peace, they need to appear to be in scenario 1 or 2, that is to say, to appear to have very few weapons or very many. Of these two options, the cheapest is number 1.
However, Iraq shows us that having no WMDs and not being a threat is no guarantee of not being perceived as a threat. Intelligence will simply be fabricated. There, option 1 is taken away from the NK régime.
This leaves scenario 3 (Cold War) as a way of securing peace. Therefore, the NK régime should logically build up as large an arsenal of dangerous weapons as it possibly can. Since war is bad for the world in general, it follows that all responsible world citizens should want the terrible NK régime to accumulate such a stockpile, as it is the only thing that will stop Washington hawks initiating a bloodbath.
Furthermore, the NK régime should build this stockpile as fast as possible, in order to shorten as much as possible the intermediate stage in which they have enough weapons to be presented as a threat, but don't actually have enough to defend the country.
The US military is tied up in Iraq maintaining the puppet state that it has established there, and public support for another aggressive war would be very low right now. If the NK régime waits another five or ten years, the US régime may have been able to recover from Iraq in financial, military and propaganda terms, and be ready to liberate NK by means of mass annihilation. For these reasons, rapid armament for NK is particularly urgent and important for world peace.
Yes, this is a major reason to have hope. It may be that NK already has enough conventional military capacity to be perceived to be too dangerous to attack. However, is it enough to stop the maniacs who smashed Iraq? I would advise NK to accumulate a bit more conventional weaponry, and perhaps make a nuke or two, plus several fake nukes. Bio-chemical weapons are probably not worth making, but they would benefit from publicly announcing that their agents have planted anthrax, plague, sarin gas, etc in remote-controlled devices in every South Korean city, and that these would detonate even if the US wiped out all NK artillery (and population) in a surprise attack.
It doesn't behoove China to have a maniac developing WMDs on its doorstep either.
The US is not interested in a war with North Korea because there is no oil or motiviation to go there.
Not hard to vaccinate your army against smallpox. I'd be surprised if even North Korea doesn't do it. It's not exactly a high-tech vaccine these days.
In fact, if you're a country looking to get rid of some "surplus" population, not to mention keep your military's grip firm on the populace, a carefully engineered outbreak wouldn't be a bad way of doing it. You vaccinate the folks you want to keep around, and let God sort out the rest.
Of course, North Korea's government seems to do just fine using famine as it is, so I doubt they really need smallpox. Why bother, when you can just starve the peasants into submission?
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I'm glad they managed to uncover this secret which has gone largely unnoticed in the wake of their recent nuclear ambitions... Though it has been public knowledge that nK has been working on both Biological and Chemical weapons since the 1960s!
Note:
South Korea: Monthly on DPRK Weapons of Mass Destruction : FBIS-EAS-98-325 : 21 Nov 1998
Or don't even bother with the South Koreans and let's see what the official US government stance on this issue is:
"As we have indicated before, it is our assessment that North Korea has an active biological weapons program and is capable of producing and delivering via munitions a wide variety of chemical and biological agents, in violation of the Biological Weapons Convention."
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/15114.htm
Released on November 13, 2002
I know a secret as well, don't tell anyone, but the Soviet Union fell!
Hardly. Most modern wars are about ideology. Starting with WW2. The land captured by the Germans in that war was definitely a welcome bonus, but they didn't fight for land. They fought for the ideals of the Nazi party. Just like todays terrorists don't fight for land or resources, they fight for the ideals mandated by their perversion of Islam.
There's a big difference between organizations which fight for land or resources, and ones who fight for ideology, and they're usually very easy to see. Look at the IRA. They fought for only one goal - the right to self determination within their homeland. Compare them to modern Islamist terror attacks, which are occurring not only on US soil, and in Iraq and Afghanistan, but also in other parts of the middle east as well as, Europe, Asia, and parts of Africa. THAT is an expansionist Ideology. Groups fighting for land or resources usually (these days at least) have modest goals in mind. Groups fighting for ideologies will stop at nothing short of total domination.
That's the trouble with TLAs. Even if the poster really meant IEDs instead of IUDs, we can only hope the distinction between "intra" and "improvised" is as clear. Intercontinental Unitarian Depilators? (Eeewwww!) Irridescent Ursine Dancers? (for all the Grateful Dead fans).
Who is John Cabal?
All the "convincing" came from US & UK intelligence.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
What does Hans Blix have to do with why we went to Iraq? We went there to spread democracy, not look for weapons of mass destruction. Anything else is liberal propaganda.
I guess they're not too keen on that idea but I'm sure there even less keen on the idea of having huge portions of the US military camped out on their doorstep.
BTW, what makes this guy so much worse than pol pot, or pinochet?
I'm sure plenty of people compared them to hitler too, no invasions ever occurred there though.
He tried to kill me with a forklift!
You're 100% correct that we're fairly strapped for cash because of Iraq,
Nonsense. The US Federal budget for 2008 is planned to be $2.9 trillion. The US defense budget is only on the order of $400 billion. The incremental cost of operations in Iraq is only another $100 billion. The main budget problem is social welfare spending, not the war.
the one that didn't have any nuclear proliferation capabilities
Iraq had a very advanced nuclear program in 1991 with a bomb only 18-30 months away.
but do you really think we've been hunting Osama bin Laden for even the last three or four years?
Yes. One man who doesn't use electronics hiding amongst a friendly population in a mountain country full of tunnels isn't easy to find. There are fugitives in the US that go for decades without being caught.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
North Korea's chemical arsenal has been well known for DECADES.
Chemical weapons are EFFECTIVE....
Biological weapons on the other hand, not so much.
Bio-weapons are more FUD than anything else. With proper safeguards Biological weapons are easily countered.
Inoculations, hygiene, medical care, gas masks and chem suits will limit the usefulness of germs in warfare.
The great Spanish Influenza pandemic of 1918 killed between 50 and 100 million people. Poor sanitation and lack of health care, (not to mention the first World War), had a lot to do with that.
Germ warfare is scary, but is ultimately inconsequential compared to the horror of nerve gas.
Today's show is brought to you by the number 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0: 25
Few people engage in violence _for_ a cause. They engage in warfare _against_ an enemy.
Take a look at the propaganda constantly thrown at us; it's not intended to make us engage in war _for_ something. It would be almost impossible to align a large number of people for a specific cause when they're around eachother and would have to discuss the actual contents of the cause (heck, even us western democrats can hardly agree on how a country should be governed).
It's much easier to demonize the enemy, claim they're a threat and claim they want something evil for you. Few can question the demonization, as that brands _you_ a sympathizer, anti-defender, not to mention that as most people arent able to actually verify or disprove the claims, they'll have to take the propaganda at face value.
I can't believe the posts I'm reading in response to this article/summary (wait... they're not the same thing?). Why would any thinking person take the validity of US intelligent reports on "Axis of Evil" countries for granted? Actually, anyone who's been paying any attention to publicly discussed "intelligence reports" since we had "intelligence" agencies should have no reason to take anything said by the US for granted.
Also, has anyone else noticed how the US only started worrying about biological weapons once and where it became politically useful?
Property is theft.
And Lo, behold ! Democracy was spead so thin there was hardly any of it left everywhere you went....
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Pol Pot's Democratic Kampuchea (funny how evil dictators love the word "democratic", eh?) was invaded in the end by Vietnam. Feel free to correct me but I think it was brought on by Pol Pot and his folks carrying out attacks into Vietnam. I'm not too sure of the details but Vietname and Cambodia's relationships have been pretty thorny over the years. Pol Pot was definitely a nasty piece of work.
Why don't we send an elite group of special forces to assassinate Kim Yong? ...or we can send Chuck Norris! that will show'em!
And throughout human history.
Best Slashdot Co
According to the WP, the FY 2007 bugdet for welfare is only about 600 billions, and being cut all the time, whereas defence and homeland security are being increased. In a few years they will be on par.
I hope you don't write any history books.
I went to Fort Detrick once on a contract for a few days. We washed our hands about 5 times before lunch and NEVER opened the fridge that said NOT FOR FOOD.
You are bitching about others not having the balls to take a stand. You are posting as AC. Nice.
Sweet informative mod.
I'm pretty surprised that we don't pay more attention to the chemical weapons. Reading this is actually quite frightening.
[%] Cingular Ringtones
There are plenty of flying cars and personal submarines available. You just have to pay for your toys. (Or is it work related... for the new paper route?) :D
The Moller Skycar has been in perpetual development, from your referenced article,"..his efforts have amounted to very little since he began developing it in 1983."
The Volante aircart may be flying but at the Volante site states,"...This production kit version of the flying car will have to remain proprietary for the moment." Add to that the ugly form factor for the Volante, hard sell in my opinion.
With regard to the submarine, yes tourist submarines do exist in limited quantity, but the luxury sub at the top of the site is described," The initial design was originally executed for a client and now awaits a buyer. As proposed, the submarine would constitute the single largest private undersea vehicle ever built, and arguably, one of the most significant personal transportation devices of the century."
My understanding of the magazine's use of the word "popular" is "in wide use" or "available to all." I don't consider any of the sited examples as being widely available to the populus.
P226
The "cause" is usually along the lines of, "These people are the root of our problems, let's get tough". Once you are on the battlefield the "cause" is your own survival. What people normally think they are going to war "for" is "a better world".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Take welfare and add in Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, AFDC, etc. The total is huge and will be an increasing percentage of total spending due to the retiring baby boom generation.
If anything bankrupts the US it will be social welfare spending, not military spending.
much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot - George Orwell
"The land captured by the Germans in that war was definitely a welcome bonus, but they didn't fight for land."
Ok my history is a bit shakey here, but Hitler's early propoganda machine was all about how Germany "was robbed" by the treaty that ended WW1. That early propoganda enabled him to walk into Austria as a hero without the need to fight, it was a huge publicity coup.
"They fought for the ideals of the Nazi party."
So what were their "ideals"? Hitler was leading using a "cult of personality", as do most despots.
"an expansionist Ideology"
Yes, and influence over territory and control of resources (including human resources) is what they stand to gain with this expansion.
Most modern wars are about ideology. Starting with WW2.
WW2 was about the axis powers attempting to exert control over the entire globe, in fact the 20th centrury saw a few people make a decent attempt at becoming the first "ruler of the world". All sides in WW2 used ideology and propoganda as "spot the enemy" trainning material for the general population.
"[The IRA fought for] the right to self determination within their homeland"
Yes, they sought to remove Britsh control over a chunk of territory so they could exert influence over it themelves.
The most entertaining explaination I have ever heard as to why "the general population" not only tolerates this destructive behaviour from their leaders, but actively partcipates in it, is give by the monkeysphere
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
They wouldn't be the same media centre who also happend to know about buildings the drop at 1g by themselves?
Although, China has been making moves to distance themselves from N.K. recently. but until they do, they'll be off limits. Both of my grandfathers fought in the last Korean war, and as one of them put it "Frequently, we'd run out of machine gun bullets before they ran out of troops to throw at us"
China's not the same country it was 50 years ago. The people there have been getting a taste of the good life, and it seems like they want more and more. They might not be willing to spill out onto the battlefield by the millions, the way they used to back when they had nothing better to do. If the US were to get crazy enough to mess with North Korea, the Chinese just might decide to sit back and watch the fireworks...
Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
The Monkeysphere is just wonderful. It explains everything -- I'm adopting it as S.O.P. henceforth. It is also one of the funniest things I've read in a long, long time. Cheers man!
The modern IRA is nothing but a bunch of power hungry, violent gangsters. I make no distinction between them or their cohorts in Sinn Fein. Please don't hold them up in that nice idealistic light. They're just fucking thugs using politics as an excuse to indulge their blood-lust wankology, as are far too many groups in Northern Ireland.
I'm glad you liked it, it's one of my favorites.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
The fact of the matter is that Europe was saved by the US several times now. And seemingly each time the US left Europe to its own devices [...]
That is a fiction. The US administration took cynical advantage of WWII in order to establish a huge network of military bases that it still uses to control the world. Knowing that the USSR would rebuild shattered Europe if allowed to, the US launched the Marshall Plan to keep Western Europe in its sphere of influence, and so it has remained ever since.
As I pointed out before, you didn't do anything. Are you going to dole out or ask for thanks for every other event in history which you had no part in?
Recent history backs this up... European nations were seemingly oblivious to the atrocities happening in the Balkans and allows yet another genocide/"ethnic cleansing" to take place on the continent. It wasn't until the US finally pressed the issue that Nato got involved and "policed" the situation.
The US, like all other countries, desired stability in the region, and international action was carried out after discussion. This is exactly the sort of thing that I am advocating, except for the fact that most of the players were acting out of self-interest and carried out actions that often increased rather than decreased ethnic cleansing. Noam Chomsky notes, "The bombing was undertaken with the anticipation explicit [that] it was going to lead to large-scale atrocities in response. As it did. Now there were terrible atrocities, but they were after the [NATO] bombings." The NATO action should have been subject to greater international democratic control and been accountable.
Show me the US imperialism in the last 100 years? We fought to free Europe twice in that time. We did NOT create an empire out of that, we gave France back to the French... We gave Germany back to the Germans...
You are limiting imperialism to annexation. It is generally accepted that these are not synonymous. The US is at the same stage as the late Roman empire, which first went through a period of annexation, reached natural limits, and then went through a period of establishing puppet régimes beyond its borders to form a two-tiered empire. The US finished its annexation phase about 100 years ago with Hawaii (although it didn't become a state until comparatively recently).
You are truly a dreamer. If you think that US troops are going to be put under the command of a reformed UN to police the world, you are sadly mistaken. Most people in the US have NO INTEREST in policing the world.
After demanding thanks and praise for being a marvellous world cop, you now claim that "you" will never do such a thing because the US is isolationist.
There is in fact quite a strong mandate for international action from the US population. Huge numbers of people supported the Iraq adventure when it was presented to them as police operation to remove dangerous terrorists who had hurt them on 9/11. If the people can be mobilised for a pack of lies that caused thousands of American military deaths and hundreds of thousands of foreign civilian deaths, imagine the support that could be garnered for actual humanitarian missions costing a fraction of the money!
Even if we accept the idea of there being no current mandate, it is extremely myopic to suggest that the US population will never attain the level of civilisation to do such a thing. At a certain point in mediaeval Europe, local barons would no doubt have thought it a silly dream to imagine that their local garrisons and those of other nobles would one day be gathered together in national armies, instead of fighting in local squabbles... but it happened.
We didn't commit troops to the middle east until our civilians were incinerated on our own soil using our own airliners.
It is known that the atta
In fact, it is very difficult to find even a 50 year period of time where the world was at peace EVERYWHERE in the world. You seem to have missed the point that I am not talking about a common past occurrence. I am talking about a new age dawning. Can you find any 50-year period before the 20th century in which there was a UN? In which there were several strong Geneva Conventions? In which there were millions of computers? In which there were nuclear non-proliferation agreements? No. We are at the end of an era, and everything is changing. We are reaching new levels of civilisation. If I look at TV programmes from as recent a period as the 1960s, the attitudes I see portrayed are often quaint or even offensive in their old-fashioned backwardness.
We will soon (in 50-100 years) see a new era in which 2007 is remembered as a stupid, violent time to live.
Presumably, they would have to stop it by force - in other words, engage in warfare, or let that war continue illegally. And where would they get the troops to do it?During an intermediate period of many decades, member states would be allowed and even encouraged to have significant national armies. For example, the US could be allowed to have a massive military machine with 10% of its current budget. These armies would then be called upon by the UN to resolve occasional problems caused by rogue states.
In time, these standing armies would slowly dwindle. Within a couple of centuries they could probably be abolished, with the occasional peace-keeping role carried out by police.
All of your arguments boil down to a premise that a government, particularly a world government, would be benev[o]lent...You've almost got it. My premise is that democratic government, particularly international democratic government, is preferable to warlordism as it is more likely to be benevolent.
your "rule of law" becomes a paper tiger... The alternative to the rule of law is the rule of might. It is an elementary principle of civilisation that the former is preferable.They had no desire to take over the globe, kill off all the Brits, or make everyone Protestant. There's a big difference.
Yet.
Size and scale.
I didn't mean to make them sound "nice", and I apologize if that's the way I came across. You're right, they are "gangsters", and that's part of what I was saying. Thugs fight for property and land. They don't fight for an ideology.
Ummm, the British supporters were the Protestant's but let's not get bogged down in details, read the link to the monkeysphere, if nothing else it's amusing.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I did. "If nothing else" is right.
Not everyone "gets" the monkeysphere or it's less articulate predesessors, many people belive they are immune to the tribal instincts that have allowed humans to evolve in the first place and that they themselves are somehow incapable of being lead into the murky depths of "inhumanity", unfortunately they often carry guns and ideologies.
BTW: At the end of the WW2 50% of the German population had spent some time in a nazi concentration camp. I agree Jews and Gypsies were a primary target of Hitler's propoganda but does the word "scapegoat" also mean nothing to you? If you look very carefully you will find that the nazi's were nothing more than "cheap labour" capitialists backed by other capitalists residing in the US, some of these financial supporters were themselves Jews.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Sorry, touchy subject. Got well sick of being strip-searched going through Heathrow in the late 80s because I was Irish, male, under 30 and single. Apparently I fit all kinds of fucking profiles generated by those assholes.
That was truly the most Orwellian thing I've read in a LONG time. I'm sorry, I can't help you.
Yes, it seems that way when you look at Jews, Nazis, Capitalists, ect, and fail to see humans.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
PS: I'm also not asking for your "help" but thanks anyway.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
"The Concept of Social Welfare" != "The line item in the budget called Welfare"
See it's got that word "Social" in front of it that lets you know he's talking about something different.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
The IRA are the simply the last PITA remnants in the battle for control of territories on the British Isles that predates the Norman invasion. The ideological propoganda used to drive a wedge into the happless population was "Orange" vs "Green".
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Read the WP article, I believe the 600 billion cover what you said, but I might be wrong.
My own take is that military spending is humongous and achieves little (cue Iraq), not to mention its questionable morality (porkbarreling, the shady militaro-industrial complex and the questionable ethics of building armament and using it effectively on civilians). In contrast, the money spent on welfare goes back to the economy via a direct route.
The babyboomers can well retire, they have contributed to the US economy in an amazing fashion during their productive years. The US is in no immediate danger of losing its workforce, millions are poundings at the gates to get in should the country start producing fewer babies. I wouldn't worry.
If anything bankrupts the US, it will be thinking it can effectively police the world and start invading a half dozen Iraqs at once. Its economy will be bankrupt and its morals as well.