Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista

schnikies79 wrote to mention an article on the Times Online site, where they report that a 'substantial number' of Vista PCs will be unable to play HD-DVDs or Blu-ray discs, as a result of DRM requirements made by the operating system. From the article: "Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said."

Comments

MSFT Development Cycle

[HangingChad]

Ready!

Fire!

Aim!

Re:MSFT Development Cycle

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice. On the same day Apple announces appletv and iTunes-style playback of HD-quality movies through a wireless tv/media hub.

I knew that someday Windows would collapse under it's own weight - I just didn't think it would be this soon.

You do know that Apple and OSX will have exact same DRM requirements as Vista to play HD-DVD/B-R content that have the HDCP flag enabled. That this is a requirement in this particular media standard that any player (including standalone non-computer based players) will need to follow to be able to play it (outside of a cracked version for Linux maybe). So following your logic, OSX is collapsing as well, or will not be able to play these discs at all.

Paging DVD Jon

[Weaselmancer]

DVD Jon to the white courtesy phone, please.

Re:Paging DVD Jon

[Anonymous Coward]

No, please don't. Making stupid DRM'd technologies acceptable to the average end user by hacking them really does more harm than good.

I'm actually hoping the technology advances to the point where it can enforce the letter of the license *EXACTLY* so people wake up to how oppressive the various license agreements (both the Windows one and the ones for the music and movie media) are.

If people had any idea how bad it was (can't show a DVD on a college dorm shared TV because that's a public display that the DVD doesn't give you a license for ; can't install windows on VMs for testing without paying more ; etc) - they'd object much more strongly.

The current situation where it's easy to break Windows and DVD licenses just advantages unethical companies and people and hurts the ones that attempt to be law abiding.

Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet.

[Renegade Lisp]

For anyone who's been following the recent debates about Vista, this is already old news. But now the mainstream seems to be picking up on it.

What the article doesn't mention is that, probably precisely for this reason, there seems to be an agreement between Sony and Microsoft that HDCP protection won't actually be required by Blu-Ray discs until at least 2010, maybe even 2012. Remember, it's the disc that actually needs to require it, the operating system only provides this as an option.

That doesn't make the system anymore pleasing though. I wonder how far Microsoft will actually get with it. Customers do seem to get upset with this, and it wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has had to make "concessions" because of public criticism.

Peter Gutmann's paper on Vista's content protection is really recommended reading, even if it's a bit polemic. And nothing beats Microsoft's own document, written by the same guy that was interviewed for Times Online.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet.

[morgan_greywolf]

Yeah, but it's not just monitors. Like the parent said, every piece of equipment that the data passes through must be HDCP-enabled, right? And this situation isn't entirely Microsoft's fault, now is it? The OS claims support for HDCP, so it must fully support the standard.

What people are whining and complaining about is that Microsoft is actually following a standard. These same people are the ones that complain when Microsoft doesn't follow other standards like CSS2. It's just that the standard they are following happens to be one that implements DRM, and now they're going on about how "Oh, gee, they fully-implemented the standard!"

*sigh*

Here's the answer: don't buy HD-DVDs and BDs that require HDCP. Duh. Vote with your feet. If enough people really put their money where their mouth is (as opposed to what they normally do, which is just paying lip-service), and truly advocated that others do the same, it will make a difference. Sadly, most people are so weak in their convictions that when their favorite movie comes out requiring HDCP, they will just buy it no matter what.

Re:Coming Soon to a PC Near You -- Not Just Yet.

[k_187]

exactly. In 2 years, when these players are in a not-insignificant number of homes. A reasonably popular release will have that content bit "accidentally" turned on. Depending upon the uproar over that "accident", the studios will decide when to fully impliment it.

Article subject is wrong

[the computer guy nex]

"Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said. "

The next-gen DVD's will work with Vista, but you need to have HDCP compatible hardware if the HD DVD has the HDCP flag.

Plus, AFAIK, there are 0 HD DVD's that have this flag enabled. Rumored it will not be activated on any disc before 2010, if at all.

Re:Article subject is wrong

[Andy Dodd]

"Plus, AFAIK, there are 0 HD DVD's that have this flag enabled. Rumored it will not be activated on any disc before 2010, if at all."

It may be disabled for Blu-Ray, but it is definately enabled for HD-DVD, which is exactly why the guy that wrote BackupHDDVD did it - his computer wouldn't play his HD-DVDs in their original format, despite a brand new monitor and a less-than-a-year-old video card.

Re:Article subject is wrong

[robosmurf]

I don't think that's true. If I recall correctly, the Image Constraint Token (which is what is not yet activated) affects only the analog outputs.

Even if the disc doesn't have this set, you'll still need HDCP if you want a digital link to the monitor.

Orwell was right

[macadamia_harold]

If you want a picture of the future, imagine DRM stomping on a human face -- forever.

Recent Headlines

[flickwipe]

Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista

EMI Considers Abandoning DRM on CDs

No Ceasefire in DVD Format Battle


Today is a good day for DRM to die...

OK, for us who arent *nix experts.

[Churla]

Could someone please elaborate for me a Lunix/Unix/OSX system which we can get currently which would play an HD-DVD disc with the HDCP flag up without requiring HDCP compliant DRM in place within the OS?

It seems MS is being bashed for following the requirements being set forth by the media producers. Whereas a number of MS practices may be less than honorable, in this case from what I see they are simply holding to the requirements of the format standard.

All in all I think the media companies like Sony have been given enough DRM rope and are within a year or two of effectively fashioning themselves a noose from it, but that's just MHO on the topic.

Re:OK, for us who arent *nix experts.

[cfulmer]

The DRM component is dictated by a maze of legal agreements among the HD patent holders, the content industry and the consumer electronics industry. Vista's limitations are, in part, dictated by such agreements -- without them, you would not be able to buy a blue-ray or HD-DVD drive for your computer.

The problem, though, is that this situation did not need to be this way -- Microsoft could have teamed up with the electronics industry to say, effectively, "go to H*ll" to the content producers. The content producers would then have had to choose between (A) not releasing HD content or (B) releasing a non-DRM'd version. Their claim is that they would choose (A). But, they're full of crap -- doing so would deny them a new revenue stream in the face of increased competitive pressures. If the market didn't force them to switch, their stockholders would have.

[Note one problem: Sony is in both camps.]

Re:Its a scam

[goodtim]

This is slashdot, and still we aren't really sure how HDCP works. I fear the worst for Joe Blow consumer.

Re:Either you are mistaken or Marsh is mistaken.

[robosmurf]

Without the Image Constraint Token (which is not yet implemented), you can get full resolution output over analog (e.g. VGA or component).

However, even if the disc doesn't have this set, you still can't get unencrypted digital output (such as DVI without HDCP). Unencrypted digital output is simply not one of the allowed output formats of AACS encrypted media.

Thus, you will be able to currently play discs at full resolution over VGA, but (without new HDCP capable hardware) it simply won't work over DVI.