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Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista
schnikies79 wrote to mention an article on the Times Online site, where they report that a 'substantial number' of Vista PCs will be unable to play HD-DVDs or Blu-ray discs, as a result of DRM requirements made by the operating system. From the article: "Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said."
Ready!
Fire!
Aim!
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
DVD Jon to the white courtesy phone, please.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
For anyone who's been following the recent debates about Vista, this is already old news. But now the mainstream seems to be picking up on it.
What the article doesn't mention is that, probably precisely for this reason, there seems to be an agreement between Sony and Microsoft that HDCP protection won't actually be required by Blu-Ray discs until at least 2010, maybe even 2012. Remember, it's the disc that actually needs to require it, the operating system only provides this as an option.
That doesn't make the system anymore pleasing though. I wonder how far Microsoft will actually get with it. Customers do seem to get upset with this, and it wouldn't be the first time Microsoft has had to make "concessions" because of public criticism.
Peter Gutmann's paper on Vista's content protection is really recommended reading, even if it's a bit polemic. And nothing beats Microsoft's own document, written by the same guy that was interviewed for Times Online.
Yikes! I'll give it about a week for someone to crack it, but in the mean time, I'd like to know if this also restricts divx encoded avi's and/or games outputted to the tv. I love watching my downloaded copies of Sponge Bob and playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure on the big screen!
"Dave Marsh, the lead program manager for video at Microsoft, said that if the PC used a digital connection to link with the monitor or television, then it would require the highest level of content protection, known as HDCP, to play the discs. If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said. "
The next-gen DVD's will work with Vista, but you need to have HDCP compatible hardware if the HD DVD has the HDCP flag.
Plus, AFAIK, there are 0 HD DVD's that have this flag enabled. Rumored it will not be activated on any disc before 2010, if at all.
And we can also be sure that Some 'Potential-customers' May refuse Work With Vista as well.
perpetually dwelling in the -1 pits
If you want a picture of the future, imagine DRM stomping on a human face -- forever.
Push Button, Receive Bacon
If it did not have such protection, Vista would shut down the signal, he said.
At least until that crack hit's the bittorrent sites that disables this "feature".
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
I love watching my downloaded copies of Sponge Bob and playing Hello Kitty Island Adventure on the big screen!
Whenever there is an article critical of Microsoft, there is always some astroturfer pointing out how it is a good thing.
No Next Gen? What will I do without being able to watch Picard and crew?!?
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista
EMI Considers Abandoning DRM on CDs
No Ceasefire in DVD Format Battle
Today is a good day for DRM to die...
I think that just about sums it up. Why is MS in the studios' pockets anyway?
Speculation about a yet-to-be-released operating system not being compatible with yet-to-be-released video discs on yet-to-be-released hardware? Here's a news bit for you--monkeys may fly out of my ass. News at 10 on /.
Mind-boggling.
I have to admit that even though Peter Gutmann is a respected computer security expert while I know virtually nothing about Vista, I was inclined to think his analysis just had to be wrong. He had to be misunderstanding something, or positing a hypothetical situation that would never arise with real-world commercial gear, or something like that. Microsoft simply couldn't be that stupid.
Now it turns out that he's right, and that presumably-unintended but not-unforeseeable consequences of Vista's DRM scheme will prevent it from being used in the one way you'd think Microsoft would most want it to be used. It is precisely the enthusiastic with money to devote to their video hobby who are likely to be the early adopters of PCs as home video platforms.
Microsoft is coming perilously close to providing the platform that secures protected perfectly content by preventing _anyone_ from viewing it.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
Could someone please elaborate for me a Lunix/Unix/OSX system which we can get currently which would play an HD-DVD disc with the HDCP flag up without requiring HDCP compliant DRM in place within the OS?
It seems MS is being bashed for following the requirements being set forth by the media producers. Whereas a number of MS practices may be less than honorable, in this case from what I see they are simply holding to the requirements of the format standard.
All in all I think the media companies like Sony have been given enough DRM rope and are within a year or two of effectively fashioning themselves a noose from it, but that's just MHO on the topic.
I'm a fiscal conservative, it's a pity we don't have a political party anymore
I don't understand.. I buy the hardware, I buy my HD-DVD / Blu-ray disk, after kitting my computer out with an expensive player, just to be told that I have to watch the video in a crap resolution. I personally consider this inexcusable. If they could at least guarantee that legal copies will work, then I couldn't care less what DRM protection they have, but to be told that my hardware, designed for playing high definition disks wont play high definition disks, is just absurd.
Seriously, does anyone actually take the computer/DVD player output (s-video or whatever) and capture it with something else? I thought that went out along with dubbing VHS's as soon as we could get DVD drives for PCs. I realize that this is just trying to close the analog hole, but NOBODY copies DVDs this way, why do they think people will do that with high def DVDs?
The future of media cracking isn't signal capture, its firmware hacking DVD drives (if that much effort will even be required).
Microsoft's representative could easily have chosen to say "In the future, by the year 2010, HD DVD and Blu-ray disks will certainly require such protection."
What he DID say according to TFA was "At the moment HD DVD and Blu-ray Discs certainly require such protection."
I don't know why he would be misinformed, or why, given the importance of this issue to Microsoft, he would be less than careful about what he said.
Most likely, current disks really don't play, because of some complexity in the interaction between Vista's DRM software and hardware that results in an illogical and unintended consequence.
If current disks will play, why on earth wouldn't he have taken great pains to say so and to stress the point.
"How to Do Nothing," kids activities, back in print!
My Denon receiver (and/or the HD Tivo I have hooked up to it) does the same thing. I tried to hook up an LCD monitor to it so I could twiddle my Tivo without firing up the projector --- no dice. What's going to be interesting is seeing how virtual machine software handles virtual drives...
This is slashdot, and still we aren't really sure how HDCP works. I fear the worst for Joe Blow consumer.
"Flee at once, all is discovered."
New 1080p HD TV: $2,500
Vista OS Upgrade: $150
Card and cable for streaming HD A/V to TV: $180
Internal Blueray Drive: $900
Blueray movie: $40
Not being able to view legally purchased media on legally purchased hardware because of arbitrary content restrictions: $3770 apparently.
All prices approximate but realistic. Thanks Hollywood and Microsoft, obviously the consumer is king!
-- I'm not a pessimist, I'm a realist. It's not my fault that life sucks so much. --
This is one of a long list of reasons that I won't be upgrading to Vista or HD-DVD/BluRay in the forseeable future. The sad thing for all of the companies involved is that I usually am an early adopter of technology.
I was one of the first people I knew to own a Tivo, DVD-player and an HD set (okay, I didn't own the set but I pressured my dad into buying one and he was really happy with it). I bought a copy of XP pretty much as soon as it was available. Last count, I owned nearly 500 DVDs.
And that's about as far as my relationship with these companies go. I--a legitimate, paying customer--am unwilling to be inconvenienced one single second, or pay a single extra dollar, to be treated like a criminal. I simply won't do it. So I'll continue buying DVDs until they stop manufacturing them, hopefully by which point this whole fiasco will have blown over.
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
Ok..let me spell out my point AC since you are going to focus on a link...
At some point, Linux will be able to play these discs because the DRM will be cracked. When that day comes, I will not have the restrictions at the OS level that you will. Until that day comes, I won't be purchasing either of these restrictive technologies. Like I said, enjoy your Vista.
"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons."
- Popular Mechanics, 1949
"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
- Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
"640K ought to be enough for anybody."
-Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates, 1981
"Anyways, there is no way to play HD-DVD or Blu-Ray disks in Linux." Ever. =P
-AC Slashdot, 01/09/07
Wrong: Some 'Next-Gen' DVDs May Not Work With Vista Right: Some PCs May Not Play 'Next-Gen' DVDs The problem is on the hardware side, you need an HDCP capable video card and monitor, and this has been known for a long time.
Also, people are understandably confusing two different DRM components: HDCP and ICT. ICT (Image Constraint Token) is the DRM that downgrades the video if played over analog connections. ICT hasn't been implemented yet and most studios have agreed not to implement it until around 2010 at the earliest.
TO START
PRESS ANY KEY
Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...
Was that clear enough? The media companies require digital signals to use HDCP, regardless of whether the Image Constraint Token is there.
You can get full resolution HD video right now if you don't have an HDCP digital connection by using analog outputs, whether that be on your HD-DVD player, BlueRay player, or computer. This is because the ICT is not enabled. In the future they MAY enable it. In that case, those without a digital connection with HDCP do not get full resolution HD video.
I know its a matter of course to bash anything Microsoft, and especially anything Vista, but for Christ's sakes, find some valid points to bash them on. This isn't one of them.
Yeah, but if "Mah movie don' work.", I'm going to demand a refund. If 1,001 rednecks go into WorstBuy saying "Mah movie don' work.", they will be very PO'd about having to return all that money, and just might quit carrying the offensive DVDs.
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
They don't need to know why as long as they return the stuff. The average consumer will just stick to prior generation technology to avoid the hassle, because he will have heard through the grapevine many stories like this one, that technology X doesn't work yet because it's still too copy protected and they have to fix it, or one of their friends told them that if you get player Y or discs in format Z to stick to Windows XP because they won't work on Vista.
That's what a consumer revolution looks like. It isn't important that the consumers even be aware of it; the people who have to get the message are the sellers of this crap.
My guess is that stories like this one are poison. Together with the format war (which has everyone I talk to asking, "Which format has less DRM?") stories like this one will kill the high density DVD market for a few years. These technologies will flop just like the laser disc did, the industry press will conclude that people just aren't interested in higher density data storage, and the market will stagnate for a few years until somebody comes along who doesn't have their head up their ass and who makes some sort of general purpose data storage device specifically designed for unprotected content. There is a market for such stuff- not everyone is going to be using it for entertainment. If Vista fails to load drivers for such a device because they haven't been cryptographically signed with the blessing of their new media overlords (whom they all welcomed) then too bad for Vista.
First off, I never worked a help desk. I did on site service. To put me through college with an engineering degree, I might add. Second, calling the actual computer the CPU is not incorrect, it's merely old school.
Now get off my lawn.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
You'll get an inadvertent consumer revolution in the form of a wave of returned merchandise from your mouth breathers at Best Buy. They'll leave the store perhaps only barely conscious of the effect they just had on the whole DRM issue by returning the DRM-managed paperweights they bought- paperweights that had pretended to be computers and high end electronics in the store.
Gods, I hope so. But I'm just too old and cynical to think it'll play out that way. Most likely (IMHO at least), you'll have salesweasels saying, "Oh, but your new movie would work if you bought the compatible monitor! Just look at that picture - it really is worth it."
A lot of this whole DRM war isn't just about controlling content. It's about getting the consumer base to buy yet another round of hardware to do the same damn thing their current hardware already does.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
READ THE GODDAMN SPECIFICATION BEFORE YOU SPOUT OUT BOLLOCKS!
Link 2.4.1.1 DVI (Digital) DVI is a high-speed, high-quality, digital pixel interface, developed by the PC industry. It is used in place of analog VGA to connect to PC monitors. It can provide very high resolutions by paralleling separate channels. Intel's HDCP protection is available for DVI, but is not always implemented by hardware manufacturers. HDCP is approved by the content industry, so DVI with HDCP is a great output solution for protected content. In contrast, DVI without HDCP is definitely not liked by content owners, because it provides a pristine digital interface that can be captured cleanly. When playing premium content such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray DVD, PVP-OPM will be required to turn off or constrict the quality of unprotected DVI. As a result, a regular DVI monitor will either get slightly fuzzy or go black, with a polite message explaining that it doesn't meet security requirements. So, to correct:
- HD will output flawlessly on any output when HDCP is not requested by the content producer
- If HDCP is requested, the content can either be degraded to standard definition or blocked completely
- It will be degraded, not blocked. Content providers are greedy but not stupid
That times article is retarded, and makes it sound as though you can't watch HD on a digital monitor at all but "huuuuuuuurrrr it'll be just fine on analog." To reiterate, content providers might be greedy but they're not stupid. Given the option of degrading or blocking, they will go for degrading so that you can be enticed to think how much better it would be in HD if you go buy their fancy kit, and also to reduce all the complaints of "my disc is broken!"Seriously, seeing as half the people responding above don't know what they're talking about,how is the average consumer supposed to know that their disc isn't playing because they need a better TV?
The amount of FUD surrounding this is really pissing me off, especially when supposedly reputable sources like the times end up shitting out absolute nonsense.
I'll bet you're a lot of fun at parties.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
It's really:
Ready!
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Aim!
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley