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Congress to Debate Net Neutrality

evw writes "The NYTimes is reporting that legislation was introduced in the Senate on Tuesday in support of Net Neutrality. It is bipartisan legislation introduced by Olympia Snowe, R-Maine and Byron Dorgan, D-N. Dakota, however the article notes that Senator Snowe is one of the few Republicans that supports it. "Senior lawmakers, emboldened by the recent restrictions on AT&T and the change in control of Congress, have begun drafting legislation that would prevent high-speed Internet companies from charging content providers for priority access." This isn't the first attempt. Last year a similar amendment was blocked. However, conditions placed on AT&T in its merger with SBC have emboldened supporters of the legislation."

227 comments

  1. I find this funny by dada21 · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Congress spends almost a century enacting policies that have restricted the growth of communications that the market desires -- the FCC and a variety of laws and regulations that have mandated micro and macro-level monopolies. Instead of working to promote free enterprise, they want to enact MORE laws that restrict where the market will head based on consumer demand.

    Net neutrality is fraudulent, because no one knows what the market will want tomorrow. When selection is mandated to a certain level, nothing rises above it, and little falls below that bar. Instead, you end up with an attempted "one-size fits all" scenario, which never works. It restricts long term development, new technology, and also restricts those who want to spend more for more, or spend less for less.

    Net neutrality is bad idea -- just like most regulation of industry. How about revoking some of the pro-monopoly laws that exist, and allowing the market to go where the consumer wants it to? Voting with your dollars gives us cheaper goods in greater quantity. Setting regulations does the opposite.

    1. Re:I find this funny by CmdrGravy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Voting with your dollars gives us cheaper goods in greater quantity I think there is more to life than cheap goods and cheap goods is certainly not the sole and overiding goal of any society I'd like to be a part of.
    2. Re:I find this funny by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Net neutrality is fraudulent, because no one knows what the market will want tomorrow.

      Let's go easy on the rhetoric; net neutrality might lack merit, and it's proponents might on occasion make fraudulent claims* but "net neutrality" is not fraudulent. And while I agree that people too often use static thinking when talking about markets, I strongly suspect people will ALWAYS want to know when their access to something is being throttled because the provider has been bribed to make your access more difficult by someone who can't compete on a level field.

      *though more often it happens the other way around. Ted Stevens and Professor Woo, I'm looking in your general direction. Except about the internet not being a truck. That part you got right.

    3. Re:I find this funny by dkf · · Score: 1
      Voting with your dollars gives us cheaper goods in greater quantity
      I think there is more to life than cheap goods and cheap goods is certainly not the sole and overiding goal of any society I'd like to be a part of.
      Sure (and, to tell the truth, I agree with you) but you're outvoted by all the morons who think that cheap goods give their life more meaning.
      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    4. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The goal of a tiered internet is to control distribution, plain and simple. All other arguments simply try to hide that fact.

    5. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Selection? Selection of what? In what way does mandatory equality of QOS negatively impact the internet? I posit that the internet owes its success to carrier's whose motivation presently is to provide the best possible service. Breaking nuetrality means it will be the carrier's fudiciary duty to degrade all traffic and underinvest in their networks in order to force all users to pay unavoidable tolls. Users who refuse will see their traffic neglected and actively sabotaged.

      "Net neutrality is bad idea -- just like most regulation of industry. How about revoking some of the pro-monopoly laws that exist, and allowing the market to go where the consumer wants it to? Voting with your dollars gives us cheaper goods in greater quantity. Setting regulations does the opposite."

      You are working from an unsupported proposition - that all regulation is bad - and saying that since net nuetrality is regulation, it must also be bad. Your conclusion presupposes your conclusion. That's called begging the question.

    6. Re:I find this funny by lawpoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You viewpoint is naive. Read some American history about the period 100 years ago. Standard Oil wasn't created by government 'interference'.

      The intense competition of the marketplace creates great incentive to cheat and deal with people unfairly in order to get ahead. A truly free market will be taken over by powerful monopolies who will work to *remove* competition. Corporations have no incentive to tell us the truth or to use less hazardous manufacturing methods if it makes them more money. They have no incentive to pay people decent wages if they could have child laborers working 80 hour weeks, or even serfs or slaves. The slaves were freed through government 'interference' in the marketplace. Children were taken out of factories and mines by government 'interference'. Workers were given 40-hour work weeks with overtime thereafter, lunch breaks, bathroom/coffee breaks, and retirement accounts by unionization and government 'interference' which allowed unions. Read some history about how labor organizers were beaten up and killed by private 'security' services employed by corporations.

      The role of government is to keep the marketplace fair by creating the rules through law, and punishing cheaters. Otherwise a free market will simply reward cheaters and strongmen. Part of keeping the marketplace fair is ensuring competition. This involves breaking up monopolies. We are a democratic republic, and we have the rule of law. In order for the government to legitimately regulate the marketplace, law must be passed.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    7. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      Your premise presupposes your conclusion, that should be.

    8. Re:I find this funny by Billosaur · · Score: 1

      I think there is more to life than cheap goods and cheap goods is certainly not the sole and overiding goal of any society I'd like to be a part of.

      And as they say: you get what you pay for. Cheap goods are only desirable in a culture that views resources as disposable. Cheap labor only serves to create pseudo-slavery. I personally don't mind paying more for something if I know I'm getting quality for my money. That, however, is becoming rarer by the day.

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    9. Re:I find this funny by giorgiofr · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Regulation is bad. NN is regulation, therefore NN is bad.
      Looks like a syllogism to me.
      Your conclusion presupposes that you can think for yourself, but apparently you like to be spoonfed.

      --
      Global warming is a cube.
    10. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Regulations involving guarantees of freedom can also be translated as limiting those freedoms or as not defending those not mentioned. Alexander Hamilton and others worried over this when the Bill of Rights was added to the Constitution of the US.

      I go further, and affirm that bills of rights, in the sense and in the extent in which they are contended for, are not only unnecessary in the proposed constitution, but would even be dangerous. They would contain various exceptions to powers which are not granted; and on this very account, would afford a colorable pretext to claim more than were granted. For why declare that things shall not be done which there is no power to do? Why for instance, should it be said, that the liberty of the press shall not be restrained, when no power is given by which restrictions may be imposed? I will not contend that such a provision would confer a regulating power; but it is evident that it would furnish, to men disposed to usurp, a plausible pretense for claiming that power.
      Alexander Hamilton

      Alexander Hamilton has been repeatedly proven correct in this by all three branches of the government. Not going to give examples in order to avoid breeding offtopic arguements over the examples, merely citing this because our internet freedom is at stake. One of the things we too often forget is that laws and regulations don't guarantee rights, they limit or remove them. Which was Hamilton's major objection to the Bill of Rights, that by enumerating them and stating their guarantees that it could be translated as restrictions to them in either stated or unstated fashion.

      The FCC got ATT to agree to a temporary net neutrality stance in order for their merger with BELL South to go through. This brings up at least two concerns. First, those items not listed as protected could be translated as fully open for ATT to mess with. Second, when the time expires on this agreement ATT will be able to translate that as now having FCC permission to do everything it restricted them from doing.

      It would probably be better to fight this out in the courts over existing laws, regulations and agreements ( peering for example ) and in the court of public opinion. We could use more providers and a more diverse backbone for letting the people vote their dollars and letting the internet route packets better in case of damage.
    11. Re:I find this funny by Dachannien · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How about revoking some of the pro-monopoly laws that exist

      I can see it now: instead of a series of telephone poles along my street with maybe ten cables and wires running along them, it'll be a solid wall of copper and fiber, one for each company providing a service.

      Oh, wait - if everyone had to run their own cable on the poles, the expense would be so high that nobody would make any money (except whoever owns the poles). That must be why some companies pay other companies to use their cables. This sounds vaguely familiar.

      Even with deregulation, you're still going to have oligopoly status in the broadband market (as opposed to the duopoly status we have today), and that oligopoly status will still lead last-mile ISPs to try to double dip by charging content providers who aren't their direct customers and to try to block services that they wish to provide by themselves like VoD and VoIP.

      By the way, you make a lot of generalistic claims without providing any justification for those claims. Instead of saying things like "regulation is bad" or "regulation restricts technology", you need to provide some specifics on why you think network neutrality won't work if you plan on convincing people, because those generalistic claims aren't always true.

    12. Re:I find this funny by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >Net neutrality is fraudulent, because no one knows what the market will want tomorrow.

      Net neutrality is _vital_ because no one knows what the market will want tomorrow.

      If huge and stupid companies get to decide what internets go over their tubes(*), we won't get innovative new services coming out of nowhere. If the huge and stupid companies simply sell bandwidth for us and the innovators to use as we please, then tomorrow's applications can thrive.

      (*) Poor Ted Stevens

    13. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      In what way does mandatory equality of QOS negatively impact the internet?

      It means you cannot reasonably deliver IPTV services over the Internet. Most consumers do not want their HBO to start cutting out when their kids start playing a game online or starting a large data transfer. To prevent this, you need prioritization of data, and you can't do that over the public Internet. This means your ISP needs the ability to contract with content providers for dedicated network connections and someone needs to pay for that. (Ultimately, of course, that person is you, the consumer.)

    14. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      We are a democratic republic, and we have the rule of law. In order for the government to legitimately regulate the marketplace, law must be passed.

      We are more like a "Corpocracy" these days. We have a rule of law, but who's deep pockets have the greatest influence over the success or defeat of those laws? While my letter writing and phone calls may help influence my congressman, I just don't have the resources to send a lobbyist. ;-)

    15. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I strongly suspect people will ALWAYS want to know when their access to something is being throttled because the provider has been bribed to make your access more difficult by someone who can't compete on a level field.

      Prioritization only matters when the network connection is congested. When it's congested, packets must necessarily be dropped. You can either drop all packets equally (your data transfer slows and your HBO starts cutting out), such as with a "neutral" Internet like today's, or you can prioritize (your data transfer slows more, but HBO stays on the air), in a "non-neutral" fashion.

      Customers won't just know what's being throttled, they will actively want it to be that way.

    16. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, smacked down in an argument so the child, instead of coming up with a better argument, lashes out against the better debater. Maybe when you hit high school, you'll get into some debating in english class and will be better armed for it. Until then, I suggest you refrain.

    17. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your conclusion presupposes that you can think for yourself, but apparently you like to be spoonfed.

      Excellent ad hominem there sir, you totally blew his argument out of the water with that.

      Next time, try explaining why "regulation is bad" instead of simply stamping your feet and insisting it's so.

    18. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You conflate a wide variety of actions and restrictions which are not necessarily equivalent. Reducing competition, intimidating labor organizers, and cheating consumers and partners via the initiation of force and fraud is not a legitimate function of or action within the framework of the free market - no non-trade action is. The arbitrary initiation of force to accomplish one's will is the province of criminals and the government.

      Most properly, the government only uses its theoretical monopoly on the legitimate use of force to prevent the initiation of force and fraud which disrupts the integrity of market functions. This use does not constitute 'interference' in the market, and cannot be conflated with it. Any law or regulation which misuses the authority over the use of force granted to the government by the people by interfering in the political economy for any other purpose or with any other effect besides the prevention of force/fraud-initiation-based disruption of the political economy is unethical, illegitimate, arbitrary, and counter to the interests of the people, in that an unrestricted and uncompromised free market is the most efficient allocator of resources.

    19. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      I've heard this argument before, but it strikes me as being a canard. First off, we have IPTV services right now. Apple has sold 50 million videos and Youtube and Google Video are raging successes. Why is that these work, and why is that latency sensitive gaming works when the very fabric of the internet is apparently so fundimentally flawed? What of Skype audio and video chat? Why should Skype be able to do it, but not HBO?

      Of course, your Skype call will hiccup if your downloads are starving it for bandwidth. This problem can be solved by purchasing a router that priororitizes traffic at your end - there are numerous commercial solutions that do just this. Furthermore, it's possible to do in Linux with tc and it's easy to do with pf on FreeBSD. You don't need to break equality of traffic on the backbone to solve this problem.

    20. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Corpocracy"

      What you refer to is called "plutocracy", aka rule by the rich. And yes, it is growing stronger.

    21. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Informative

      Customers won't just know what's being throttled, they will actively want it to be that way.

      Except that the ISPs aren't throttling based on what the customers want, they want to throttle based on how much HBO pays them to not be throttled.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    22. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      The "IPTV" services you talk about today aren't quite the same thing that you view on your TV. For one, the bitrates for these services are miniscule compared to that necessary for standard- or high-definition TV programming. Second, there's usually a multi-second lag between the time you request playback and the time playback starts. This lag time is used to buffer enough of the content that playback can appear seamless. Do you want your TV to behave this way? Do you want to change channels and be greeted with a "Buffering... 10%" footer while you wait 5-10 seconds for enough content to be streamed to your TV before you can watch it?

      Purchasing better hardware at the customer end to prioritize traffic won't solve anything, because your congestion is on your Internet connection itself. By the time it's arrived at your DSL router (or whatever), it's already traversed your Internet connection and packets have already been dropped if the link was congested. You need your ISP's cooperation to do this, but even with your ISP allowing you to prioritize packets on the ISP's side, they can't guarantee how the public Internet is going to treat the same data. If that IPTV stream has to make its way through 3 or 4 major backbones, you can't control how those other providers prioritize your packets.

      A company that wants to provide you cable TV service over IP simply can't do it using the public Internet. They need to make special arrangements with your ISP to ensure the entire network path is QoS-aware. This doesn't seem to be possible with a "neutral" Internet.

    23. Re:I find this funny by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that the ISPs aren't throttling based on what the customers want, they want to throttle based on how much HBO pays them to not be throttled.

      And HBO decides how much to pay for that service based on how much their customers (the advertisers) are willing to pay to make sure HBO stays "on-air".

      The advertisers, in turn, will decide how much they want HBO to stay on-air on the basis of how much they are willing to spend to ensure that HBO's viewers (to whom their advertisements are directed) keep watching HBO, and thus their advertisements. This roughtly correlates with how much the viewers desire a clear, non-throttled transmission (though there are obviously other factors involved, such as the quality of the shows).

      End result: Viewer preferences dictate the priority the ISP assigns to HBO.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    24. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 1
      Regulation is bad. NN is regulation, therefore NN is bad.
      Looks like a syllogism to me.


      It is possible for a fatuous argument to simultaneously be a syllogism and for it to beg the question. To wit, according to dictionary.com, a syllogism is:

      An argument the conclusion of which is supported by two premises, of which one (major premise) contains the term (major term) that is the predicate of the conclusion, and the other (minor premise) contains the term (minor term) that is the subject of the conclusion; common to both premises is a term (middle term) that is excluded from the conclusion. A typical form is "All A is C; all B is A; therefore all B is C." Indeed, you say (A regulation) is (C bad); (B net nuetraility) is (A regulation); therefore (B net nuetrality) is (C bad). So we have a syllogism.

      According to wikipedia,

      Begging the question occurs if and only if the conclusion is implicitly or explicitly a component of an immediate premise. Without the proposition that all regulation is bad, your argument fails to posit that net nuetrality is bad. Therefore, you beg the question.

      Your conclusion presupposes that you can think for yourself, but apparently you like to be spoonfed.

      Ahem.
    25. Re:I find this funny by the_lesser_gatsby · · Score: 1

      It means you cannot reasonably deliver IPTV services over the Internet

      Of course you can. If an IPTV company is willing to pay for higher QOS then they can accomplish that with local caching solutions like Akamai. There's more of an argument for non-NN with low-latency applications like VOIP and games. But these aren't enough to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

      As for your kids hogging your bandwidth - there are any number of technical and social solutions to maintaining QOS through your own internet connection that needn't affect anybody else.

    26. Re:I find this funny by novus+ordo · · Score: 1

      TCP has worked pretty well with "net neutrality." Applying it to UDP and realtime packets is somehow different, no? That's essentially what this whole debate is about. I'm surprised nobody on /. has delved into the specifics but rather hid behind blanket statements that government regulation is "bad" and market is "good." Nothing is stopping the big telecos from making their own internets(what there are others??) with their restrictive policies. Just don't be congesting taxpayer funded networks.

      --
      "You're everywhere. You're omnivorous."
    27. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      The "IPTV" services you talk about today aren't quite the same thing that you view on your TV. For one, the bitrates for these services are miniscule compared to that necessary for standard- or high-definition TV programming. Second, there's usually a multi-second lag between the time you request playback and the time playback starts. This lag time is used to buffer enough of the content that playback can appear seamless. Do you want your TV to behave this way? Well, I use a TIVO... But at any rate, I have had the pleasure of using video on demand on a private network that implements QOS (Charter's video on demand datastream). Unsurprisingly, there is a multi second delay when you request a new stream while the cable box buffers. On a large packetized network, some amount of buffering is unavoidable unless you are the only user, unless you have engineered the network to always relay packets in order, even if not all packets traverse the same routes. The internet will never do this. The question of data rate is irrelevant. There is no reason this technology can't scale, and in fact it has. Obviously, video chat requires far more bandwidth than voice, and already it can service both competently.

      Purchasing better hardware at the customer end to prioritize traffic won't solve anything, because your congestion is on your Internet connection itself. By the time it's arrived at your DSL router (or whatever), it's already traversed your Internet connection and packets have already been dropped if the link was congested. You need your ISP's cooperation to do this, but even with your ISP allowing you to prioritize packets on the ISP's side, they can't guarantee how the public Internet is going to treat the same data. If that IPTV stream has to make its way through 3 or 4 major backbones, you can't control how those other providers prioritize your packets. Ingress traffic shaping is a tricky problem, but people much smarter than I have it licked. Here's how it works: you start queuing incoming streams that exceed their bandwidth limit. The sender notices and reduces his rate of transmission. You do this such that your total incoming data rate does not exceed your connection's bandwidth, thereby avoiding indiscriminate queuing of all incoming packets. If a sender does not reduce his transmission rate, he is doing something wrong, such as DOSing you. CISCO gear supports this, as does linux. Go read up before assuming that the internet must be broken in order to solve various problems that have already been smacked about good and hard.
    28. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      And HBO decides how much to pay for that service based on how much their customers (the advertisers) are willing to pay to make sure HBO stays "on-air".

      The advertisers, in turn, will decide how much they want HBO to stay on-air on the basis of how much they are willing to spend to ensure that HBO's viewers (to whom their advertisements are directed) keep watching HBO, and thus their advertisements. This roughtly correlates with how much the viewers desire a clear, non-throttled transmission (though there are obviously other factors involved, such as the quality of the shows).

      End result: Viewer preferences dictate the priority the ISP assigns to HBO.


      And all this because the ISP couldn't just provide their customers the service they wanted. The only difference between this and the broken window fallacy is that in this case, somebody's window HAS to break, and the ISP seems to be trying to find the least efficient way to decide whose window has to go. Of course, even the idea that something HAS to break is false, the ISP could reinvest profits into a better network that could support your download and your HBO at the same time.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    29. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      If you, as a customer, find that their prioritization policies are not to your liking, and the ISP gives you no ability to customize the prioritization policies for your own Internet connection, you're free to give your business to someone else. If no ISPs offer guaranteed service for your favorite content provider, though, there isn't really much you can do other than try to consume your content over the non-prioritized public Internet.

      And that will probably work just fine until your connection is congested, at which point you'll wish you had some way of telling the network that HBO traffic should take precedence over some BitTorrent. If only your ISP had some way of doing QoS...

    30. Re:I find this funny by Dan+Slotman · · Score: 1

      Your scenario adds an entire additional layer of expense. That money has to come from somewhere, and I expect that place will be the consumer's pocket. It also accentuates the problem of near-monopoly constructs. A company that provided internet service along with something that USED that service wouldn't need to pay itself to prevent throttling. It can therefore offer the same product for a lower price than a competitor, then raise the rates once competition is eliminated.

    31. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      If an IPTV company is willing to pay for higher QOS then they can accomplish that with local caching solutions like Akamai.

      This does nothing to differentiate traffic as it travels over my DSL connection. The Internet path between my content provider and me is most tightly constrained as it travels over my telephone wire. If this is congested, it's usually because the router on my ISP's side has more data to send me than my connection is capable of handling. Consequently, packets get delayed or dropped.

      As a consumer, who cares not one iota about how all of this works, all I see is my HBO dropping out every time my spouse grabs something using BitTorrent. As a consumer, I want data connectivity that will allow my ISP to prioritize one over the other, so that my TV programs aren't being interrupted every 10 seconds due to congestion over my DSL line. (The ISP has to do the prioritization because by the time it's reached my equipment, any packets that were going to be dropped have already been dropped.)

      As for your kids hogging your bandwidth - there are any number of technical and social solutions to maintaining QOS through your own internet connection that needn't affect anybody else.

      So, you're thinking of yelling downstairs to your spouse or your kids to stop playing online until you're done watching your TV program? That doesn't sound like a very good product to me.

      Now, on the constructive side, some sort of QoS solution placed on the ISP side, but under my control might be nice to have. I could tell my ISP's routers how things should be prioritized over my own Internet connection, and it could reserve bandwidth for certain types of traffic as I see fit. The problem with this solution is that it can only function within the confines of my ISP's network. They can't control how other Internet providers upstream will prioritize that same traffic, so if I'm subscribing to IPTV service via the public Internet, that traffic is still competing with every other BitTorrent download and e-mail. Local caching solutions, as you mentioned, could alleviate some of that, but you're still a long ways away from low-latency, high-bandwidth streaming we need for real-time HDTV programming, IMO. In addition, who do I call when my HBO is on the fritz, and both my content provider and my own ISP's networks are running flawlessly? The problem could be 2 or 3 hops deep into the public Internet on a backbone provider's network that neither my ISP nor my content provider have any business relationship with. This is where having a dedicated connection between content provider and consumer ISP is desirable. Telling consumers that they can't watch TV because of some unspecified Internet problem is a step down in terms of service and reliability from what consumers are used to from existing cable TV services (jokes about our own cable TV service notwithstanding).

    32. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      you'll wish you had some way of telling the network that HBO traffic

      Yeah. That would be great, if only my ISP had some way of letting me do QoS, like a broadband router installed in my house that I could control.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    33. Re:I find this funny by Dan+Slotman · · Score: 1
      Your conclusion presupposes that you can think for yourself, but apparently you like to be spoonfed.
      Let me try! Ad hominem.

      Thank you Philosophy 101! I'd also like to thank my parents, my agent, all my fans, God... who else... let me consult my notes... ah of course, the Devil.
    34. Re:I find this funny by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      No, the difference between this and the Broken Window fallacy is that (a) no "windows" get broken, and (b) . . . what was your point again? This has nothing to do with the Broken Window fallacy at all, which addresses the hidden cost of employing aggresion to create more opportunities for trade. There is no aggression here, and no hidden cost. If the relations between ISP, broadcaster, advertisers, and viewers are as I have described (and I see no reason why they would be otherwise), then that arrangement is the most efficient form known to exist, the one which best conserves scarce resources -- perhaps not in purely monetary terms, but taking into consideration convenience for the viewers, effectiveness for the advertisers, general opposition among viewers to up-front bills, etc. The arrangement will, inevitably, be the one involving the least expenditure of both material and non-material capital goods out of all the known possible arrangements. If that were not the case some other arrangement would have been chosen.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    35. Re:I find this funny by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      A company that provided internet service along with something that USED that service wouldn't need to pay itself to prevent throttling. It can therefore offer the same product for a lower price than a competitor, then raise the rates once competition is eliminated.

      The opportunity cost is the same either way -- the company obviously doesn't have to pay itself to use its own network, but it must still forego any payment it could have received from the competitor. That is only a winning proposition if the ISP can offer the product more efficiently than the competitor (at a lower cost). To illustrate, assume for the moment that you're the ISP. There are four monetary values involved: $RB, the revenue you could get from selling the bandwidth; $RC, the revenue from providing the content; $CI, the cost for the ISP to provide the content; and $CO, the cost for the outsider to provide the content. $RB will be between zero and ($RC - $CO), depending on market conditions and the ISP's negotiating skills.

      On the one hand you have the option of offering your own service, which will bring in ($RC - $CI) profit to you and none to the outside provider. On the other hand you could sell the bandwidth to an external content provider, which would bring in $RB profit to you and ($RC - ($RB + $CO)) to the outside provider. The question then becomes "Is $RB less than or greater than ($RC - $CI)?". Obviously the answer depends on $RB, but looking at the limits we can see that while it may be profitable for the ISP to offer the service itself, it may also be more profitable to leave that to a more efficient outside provider, particularly if the costs of providing the content are higher for the ISP, as can be expected to be the case due to the cost benefits of division of labour. (The ISP is unlikely to be as efficient in non-ISP markets as it would be in its home market, where its experience and connections are most applicable; this is why most companies split up when they find themselves operating in more than one market at a time.)

      All this assumes that there are no other providers for bandwidth or content, either of which would give the other side more room to negotiate, further aiding efficiency. In any event, it cannot be assumed that it will be in the ISP's best interest to bankrupt outside content providers, even if the ISP holds an effective monopoly on network bandwidth. It is, in fact, entirely possible that the ISP's costs would make the entire content-providing business unprofitable for them ($CI > $RC), in which case they would have no choice but to turn to an outside provider, even with $RB = 0.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    36. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      Well, I use a TIVO

      Fair enough, but TIVO would still experience the same data loss issues as you'd experience with live TV, if your data connection is congested and you have no way to prioritize traffic.

      On a large packetized network, some amount of buffering is unavoidable

      Agreed, but the devil is in the degree. If you control how your network is engineered, you can empirically determine the best buffering/responsiveness trade-off for your needs. Over the public Internet, you have no idea how your packets are going to be handled or what congestion it's going to experience on the way, and consequently, services like this need to buffer a significant amount of data to ensure uninterrupted playback, and even that isn't always accurate.

      Here's how it works: you start queuing incoming streams that exceed their bandwidth limit.

      How do mechanisms like this differentiate between your high-priority HBO stream and your low-priority BitTorrent download? How do you ensure that your upstream provider agrees with how you want them prioritized?

    37. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      How do you intend on applying QoS rules to packets that have already been dropped? It's your broadband connection that's likely to be congested, not your home LAN. By the time your router sees the packets, they've already made their way through the only likely congested link. It's the router on the other side, where the pipe narrows, that needs to apply QoS rules to prioritize your traffic for you, not your own equipment.

      This also ignores the longest part of the packet's journey, as it travels over the public Internet. Applying QoS toward the end is certainly better than not applying it at all, but there are lots of other places where congestion could delay or drop your packets, in favor of something that could have been delayed. Unless you can get QoS working all the way from the content provider to your ISP, your experience is still going to be inferior to every-day cable TV.

    38. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      And all this because the ISP couldn't just provide their customers the service they wanted.

      It's comments like these that suggest some of us are on a completely different wavelength from others. I'd really like to understand what this rift is, and whether it's something fundamental that I'm missing or that others are missing.

      What "service" are you talking about here? The only way you're going to guarantee that all of the data sent over your network connection arrives without interruption is if you have an infinite amount of bandwidth. Obviously that isn't the case. If you have a 10Mbit connection, you're only going to be able to fit 10Mbit of data down it. If you try to transfer more, packets get delayed (queued) or dropped.

      If you attempt to share a 5Mbit video stream (say, HBO) with a BitTorrent download, the network has no way of telling those apart. Without QoS telling the routers otherwise, packets from both sources get delayed or dropped equally. Your BitTorrent slows down and your HBO starts cutting out. QoS and prioritization would allow you to continue watching your IPTV while other, lower-priority things are going on in the background.

      Nothing "has" to break until you congest your data connection with traffic. At that point you have to decide: do you want a "neutral" Internet, where no preference is given to either data stream, or a "non-neutral" Internet, where the network understands that your IPTV is more important and gives it preference when the connection gets congested?

    39. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      There is no aggression here

      If the ISP moves to explicitly throttle HBO, then there is definitely an act of aggression, and the ISP will have expended resources (purchase of routers with the capability of throttling packets based on rules setup by a billing system that would be purchased to control who paid for which packets to go where) for the purpose of collecting money to not throttle the packets (just because it's a service, not a good, doesn't mean the principle behind the broken window fallacy can't apply). On the other hand, if the ISP does not explicitly throttle HBO, then there is currently no reason for HBO to pay up. They'll simply remind their subscribers that they'll need to throttle or kill their p2p apps, music streams, or other downloads if they want to watch uninterrupted.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    40. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      It doesn't matter what your provider does. You prioritize it yourself, either by stopping your downloads or by using a router that understands content and assigns priorities accordingly, or by writing firewall rules that depend on the ports of the protocols in question. Ingress filtering is not a new technology and it works well. Content providers could even put QOS bits in their packets to identify high priority streams that your router or desktop IP stack could take into account in order to save you the trouble. It's not necessary to put this extremely abuse-prone mechanism in the hands of the very people who have the most to gain by abusing it. It's seem to me that they are the ones ginning up this controversy - the actual businesses such as google presently doing service quality sensitive business don't want it.

    41. Re:I find this funny by Silik · · Score: 1

      Why does the ISP need the ability to contract with content providers to do this? Why are you in favor of giving the content provider the choice of how important their content is? Wouldn't a better solution be for the ISP to actually ask /me/ what content I want and what content can be scaled back? If I need that download to happen quickly I'd rather have my IPTV degrade while it's downloading at full speed. If I prefer the game, I'd rather it suck my bandwidth than my download. Or are you claiming that the data provider has a better sense of what's important to me than I myself do?

    42. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      Yes, existing TCP- and UDP-based applications work well over the "neutral" Internet, primarily because that's where they evolved. The issues being debated stem from emerging technologies. People aren't subscribing to IPTV services over the public Internet to their TVs yet, but when they do, they're going to expect that it works just as well as their existing cable TV. YouTube-style video resolution, and 10 seconds of "buffering..." every time you change the channel just flat out will not work. Channel changes need to be quick and you can't have the video cutting out every 10 seconds whenever your family members are playing games online or downloading something with BitTorrent. The technology needs to be able to tell the two types of data streams apart and prioritize IPTV over bulk data transfers. You need QoS to do that, which is where your "non-neutral" Internet rears its head. In addition, since you can't do QoS over the entire route that the packets take over the public Internet, you really need dedicated network connections between the content provider and the consumer's ISP that are QoS-aware, and those cost money.

    43. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      Yes, that would be ideal.

      The problem is that in order to get QoS to work from end-to-end, you have to have QoS-aware network path from end to end. Since you can't do QoS over the Internet, this means your ISP must contract with the content provider to establish and maintain that link. Otherwise, the video/game traffic you want to prioritize will be travelling over a non-QoS-aware Internet along with every other bit of traffic, and your packets could be delayed or dropped anywhere in between. There's no way for your ISP to tell other ISP's, "Hey, my customer Joe wants these packets prioritized over those packets, so could you do that for me?"

      It's not practical to take one customer's wishes and to go out and lay fiber and buy routers to establish that dedicated network path. Now, it might be reasonable for your ISP to do that in response to a large number of customers wanting that, but the ISP still has to negotiate with the content provider to make it happen, and the construction and maintenance of that connection still costs money.

      But once the ISP has a nice, fully-QoS-aware network path between itself and the content providers, it certainly would be slick if the ISP could then give you the option of extending that prioritization down your DSL connection, or not, based on your desires. I think, though, that that level of flexibility probably won't be very cost-effective, but you'd be within your rights to ask for it.

    44. Re:I find this funny by Dan+Slotman · · Score: 1

      I understand your point. While the competition exists, your example and argument work well. However, the point as I see it isn't whether the ISP can make money using throttling--it is whether it is ok for them to do it either way. In my opinion, if an ISP throttles some company's bandwidth then it doesn't matter if the ISP is making money or not--they are preventing the business from staying in business.

    45. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      You prioritize it yourself, either by stopping your downloads

      "BILLY! STOP THOSE BITTORRENT DOWNLOADS RIGHT NOW! YOU'RE MESSIN' UP NANNA'S SHOWS!"

      I don't want a TV service that goes out every time my network traffic spikes. Maybe some people would be OK with that, but I think that would be a horrible competitor to cable TV.

      or by using a router that understands content and assigns priorities accordingly

      A router on your side of your broadband connection can't do squat with packets that were dropped on the other side of that connection. It's usually your broadband connection that's the slowest link, not your home LAN. It's the routers on the ISP side of your connection that have to queue or drop packets. It's your ISP that needs to implement QoS in order to properly prioritize your data. Nothing you do on your end is going to matter, because your LAN is always going to be faster than your broadband connection. Remember that prioritization of traffic coming to you must be done on the other guy's routers. It's like getting a package from the postman a week after it was sent and telling the postman you'd like it overnighted. It should have been marked as 'overnight' where it was sent, and every postal worker in the chain must have agreed to handle it as overnight mail. This analog doesn't exist in the Internet today, and that's part of the reason you don't see CATV-quality IPTV today.

      Of course, that doesn't preclude your ISP from using QoS-aware routing that uses your desires in making its prioritization decisions, but unless the entire network path between the content provider and your ISP is QoS-aware, it's going to be less reliable than a dedicated, fully-QoS-aware network connection.

    46. Re:I find this funny by Silik · · Score: 1

      Which completely avoids any reason as to why my ISP needs to extort money from the sites I use. If they're needing cash to justify upgrading their infrastructure, they should charge me. I'm the person using it. If they're needing 100x the cash that it's actually going to cost to upgrade their infrastructure, they're just being greedy. They still have no reason to contract with every .com out there.

    47. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      The relations between ISP, broadcaster, advertisers, and viewers are not as you describe.
      HBO does not have advertisements! (Unless you count self-promos.)
      HBO makes its money from its viewers paying the cable and satellite networks for their channels. These days, HBO does theatrical films and box DVD sets as well, but the movie channels always came first. Viewers pay for HBO channels directly through the cable or satellite cos. Since HBO channels are all premium channels, the viewers are paying extra specifically to receive them.
      The existence of HBO and other non-advertising premium channels on cable makes net neutrality somewhat complicated. The cable providers mustn't discriminate in who they cut off, as that violates agreements to their 'Net users. But they mustn't cut HBO off at all, because that violates agreements made to viewers who don't use their 'Net service but do subscribe to HBO.
      They need to either increase their bandwidth capability or tone down their promises...

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    48. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      or a "non-neutral" Internet, where the network understands that your IPTV is more important and gives it preference when the connection gets congested?

      What about a "non-neutral" internet, where I tell it what I think is more important. Apparently this whole giving the consumer what they want thing is what's on a different wavelength here. I'm sure that having companies bid on whether or not customers get to use their content is a great measure of how important they think they are, but maybe I want my bittorent of the latest shakycam video to finish, and I'm just watching junk on HBO to pass the time?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    49. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      HBO subscription fees are the method of communication the cable cos. have in mind. If you pay them, they likely will assume HBO has preference. If you don't pay them, you won't get HBO; therefore, BitTorrent will have preference.
      Now, determining preferences between basic cable and BitTorrent will be somewhat trickier.

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
    50. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm not one for utilitarian arguments, either. However, it is in the nature of mankind to act to make his situation better, it is foolish to hinder this with inane laws. Unfortunately the whole telecoms thing has got so distorted with subsidies and monopolies, this makes it more difficult to view the picture clearly. Maybe politicians should stop adding more polices to fix previous ones. By just watching the news you can see that most of what politicians do is simply attempting to fix other politicians previous mistakes. Problem, policy, problem, policy, and eventually, socialism.

    51. Re:I find this funny by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Utter FUD. QoS can be maintained by a router in YOUR house quite effectively. The ISP could technically also implement such, but absolutely no discussion with the content provider is necessary. Here in this country, we have already a rudimentary form of QoS on our infrastructure. Our incumbent telco (who up until about a year ago held a government sanctioned monopoly, so really isn't in tune with customer wants) utilizes QoS to deprioritize P2P traffic (here's an example of what I mean). My own ISP utilizes their own bandwidth chain, and also implements a Layer 7 QoS appliance (the only one to describe their technology, I should note) to ensure "quality of service is maintained for the types of traffic that need it the most" (which means gaming, VoIP, email, web) - and then only during peak times. You'll be pleased to note that they do all this without requiring any sort of contract or agreement with Skype, Blizzard, or any of those "sensitive traffic" providers, so I don't know where you're getting your imaginary big-business-fellating idea from.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    52. Re:I find this funny by slysithesuperspy · · Score: 1

      On a quick note, Standard Oil was already loosing market share before it was broken up.

      Your argument seems to be held on the premise that competition creates an incentive for people to cheat. Cheat how? By cheating the workers or the customers?

      If the customers are cheated, they will go to a different competitor, if no decent competitors exist an entrepreneurial customer will start his own competing company.

      The companies are customers to the worker, who sells his services to the employer's company. For example, an employee of Standard Oil values the money he gets more than the hours he puts in. So, they are merely choosing the best offer, he may go and work on a farm or something if he wanted, but instead he chooses the industry because that is better for him.

      My assumption is that private property rights and contracts are upheld. If this, 100 years ago, was not done properly then the government is at fault because that was their job.

      100 years ago there was not a lot of wealth in the world so it had to be created. That is why children worked, that is why it was dangerous. As more wealth was created, work hours went down and children could go to school. The market decided the time this happened, not the government, the government simply made some laws and took the credit. If anything it would have created unemployment for the people who still wanted to work long hours. What would they do instead? You can not create wealth out of thin air, it needs to be created. It is Utopian to think government can click its fingers to make this stuff happen.

    53. Re:I find this funny by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      Of course, that doesn't preclude your ISP from using QoS-aware routing that uses your desires in making its prioritization decisions, but unless the entire network path between the content provider and your ISP is QoS-aware, it's going to be less reliable than a dedicated, fully-QoS-aware network connection.
      See, therein lies the rub. The entire path will NOT be QoS aware, because one of the core understandings of the internet must be that Bandwidth Providers (backbones) must remain utterly neutral. You say the entire network path between the content provider and your ISP must be QoS-aware, but it would destroy the internet if providers such as Layer3(?) and Savvis were required to do that. That would be putting the control of the entire planet's internet in the hands of about 5 (or however many there are) US-based companies, and that cannot ever be allowed to happen.

      Note that I defend Network Neutrality at the ISP end on principle. I defend Neutrality at the backbone provider end because every person in the world has a vested interest in preventing Backbones from having to "prioritize" traffic.
      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    54. Re:I find this funny by ArcheKlaine · · Score: 1

      If purchasing faster hardware at the consumer end won't fix the problem. Then isn't there someone else that needs to buy faster hardware? That's right, the telcos. And if I recall they were supposed to do that before 2000, and they still haven't.

      I don't see how QoS even gets thrown into the discussion.
      The problem isn't that 'Our resources on the network are scarce and we can't give you IPTV without giving our IPTV traffic priority through this bottleneck', it's 'We're still trying to send you high definition content over our aged network hardware. We don't want to upgrade to more modern technology because that requires reinvestment of funds. Who cares that the government subsidized billions of dollars just so we didn't take a financial blow for laying down newer, better lines, we get more money by telling you to pay more for higher priority in our queues on our slow networks, which are slow for no other reason than that we're profiting by not upgrading them.'

    55. Re:I find this funny by blank+axolotl · · Score: 1
      Breaking nuetrality means it will be the carrier's fudiciary duty to degrade all traffic and underinvest in their networks in order to force all users to pay unavoidable tolls.

      My question is, why don't they do that now? Traffic analysis can be used today to filter people out. Common carrier rules stop them. Perhaps you are thinking that QOS will require users to uniquely identify themselves in some way (eg have an id# to look up your QOS), allowing more reliable and accurate filtering (and companies will abuse this). However, I don't think we *need* to have such an identification scheme to get QOS. (though it is one solution). Just implement an anonymous tiered net, giving you QOS with no ID. Common carrier rules would apply just as before.

      As I pointed out in another post I think the net neutrality issue is a bunch of only partly related issues jumbled together.
    56. Re:I find this funny by kneejerker · · Score: 1

      From my understading of history, this should read " A blue collar worker of Standard Oil values not having his legs broken by strike breakers / national guard troops more than the hours he puts in." Lets not pretend that labor is by definition a free market - it certainly can be, but often is severly constrained by factor external to the actual value of said labor. And this goes in both directions - Unions are just as likely to try and formulate/force inflated wages as provide for fair one. Which, since they are essentially a corporation trading the commodity of labor, is exactly what they should be doing, selling their product for the most the market will bear.

    57. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      How do you intend on applying QoS rules to packets that have already been dropped? It's your broadband connection that's likely to be congested, not your home LAN.

      OK, then, a web interface on the next hop up that allows me to adjust the settings for my particular IP address. Wouldn't be too hard to do, most of the work would have to go into a making a simple but effective web UI that grandma can set up with minimal coaching from the staff if she has unusual tastes in consumption and wants to change the priorities.

      This also ignores the longest part of the packet's journey, as it travels over the public Internet.

      My ISP doesn't have any control over that either, but that's not going to stop them from taking money from HBO, now is it?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    58. Re:I find this funny by hxnwix · · Score: 1

      By users, for the most part, I mean large, identifiable organizations such as google.com, whom a certain backbone provider has already stated their intention to blackmail. Google doesn't pay the packet protection fee but Microsoft does? Well, well well well... AT&T is going to let google's packets sit on the back burner while Microsoft's slide on by. It's easy to identify such packets. Does the destination or source IP reverse to a google.com domain? If so, shitcan most of them and let a few go through very much out of order and massively delayed. You know, they have to. In order to preserve windows update's quality of service and also to ensure IPTV works good and stuff. Trust them, IPTV is impossible without common carrier exceptions.

      As for the "tiered" idea: it will be in carrier's interest to make lower tiers progressively worse as they go down in price. I want carriers on my team. I don't want it to be in their interest to piss on me and tell me it's raining.

    59. Re:I find this funny by Just+Another+Poster · · Score: 1
      From my understading of history, this should read " A blue collar worker of Standard Oil values not having his legs broken by strike breakers / national guard troops more than the hours he puts in."

      You have a lousy understanding of history.

    60. Re:I find this funny by blank+axolotl · · Score: 1

      Trust them, IPTV is impossible without common carrier exceptions.
      So, your point is that changing to a QOS system allows these companies to make up BS arguments for why they can violate common carrier rules (and I agree, they would try this). EG they say that they need to violate common carrier for QOS to work. But my point was that these arguments are BS, and if the people making the rules (the gov't) realize that they are BS we are OK, as then the gov't would not allow anyone to violate common carrier. That's how it is now. It all depends on whether the gov't screws up during the transition to a QOS system and removes common carrier, but once the transition is done we will have a better system overall (as QOS is an improvement if done right).

      it will be in carrier's interest to make lower tiers progressively worse as they go down in price. I want carriers on my team.
      But the whole point of a tiered net is that 'worse' tiers are lower price. Google *should* pay more if they want the higher tier, as it is a more valuable and rare resource, to be used when it is really needed. However, obviously backbone providers (or whoever google deals with) should not be able to arbitrarily say 'Google has to pay extra, but we let microsify get by at our "special" price for the same thing', as that is illegal in general regardless of the internet. They can say 'anyone pays X dollars to get on the 4th tier'.

      But that is not even the argument against QOS. I don't see why anyone can think that is unreasonable. What people are really complaining about in QOS is not that the people google directly deals with (ATT in your example) are causing the pricing problem, it is people further down the line, eg the local ISP for home users who forces google to pay them or else degrades their packets, causing the ISP's users not to use google. Google controls who it directly deals with and so can make contracts & barter prices (so it is fair and capitalist), but the ISPs would just be extorting Google. However, my point was that if the ISPs wanted to extort, they could already do it now with traffic analysis, regardless of whether QOS exists. But common carrier rules stop them, and so common carrier would also stop them if QOS was implemented. So QOS is irrelevant. Common carrier is relevant.

      In conclusion: QOS has little do do with common carrier rules, except for the fact that various groups are spewing BS trying to get rid of common carrier using QOS as an (incorrect) argument. As I noted before, 'net neutrality' is a jumble of these issues.
    61. Re:I find this funny by Lockejaw · · Score: 1
      At that point you have to decide: do you want a "neutral" Internet, where no preference is given to either data stream, or a "non-neutral" Internet, where the network understands that your IPTV is more important and gives it preference when the connection gets congested?
      I've never heard network neutrality proponents give a definition for network neutrality that includes a ban on prioritizing certain types of traffic; I've only heard those definitions from network neutrality opponents. I always seem to hear network neutrality proponents just wanting to prevent prioritization based on the source of the packets.
      --
      (IANAL)
    62. Re:I find this funny by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If you, as a customer, find that their prioritization policies are not to your liking, and the ISP gives you no ability to customize the prioritization policies for your own Internet connection, you're free to give your business to someone else.
      Exactly. I can move from Comcast to... Comcast.

    63. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      QoS can be maintained by a router in YOUR house quite effectively.

      I think you misunderstand what QoS does. If it's your broadband connection that's the "choke point", such as you viewing an IPTV program while downloading something with BitTorrent, your router can't do anything to ensure those two data streams are prioritized correctly. By the time your router receives the data, the packets have already been delayed or lost. All of that prioritization occurs on the router on the ISP's side. QoS flags must be set upstream for them to have any effect. Your broadband router could theoretically set its own QoS policies for the same traffic, but it's only going to have an effect on your local LAN, and your LAN is always going to be faster than your broadband connection, so it will have no effect. You can't tell the delivery guy that the package he's delivering should have been overnighted. It's too late!

      You'll be pleased to note that they do all this without requiring any sort of contract or agreement with Skype, Blizzard, or any of those "sensitive traffic" providers, so I don't know where you're getting your imaginary big-business-fellating idea from.

      It's QoS 101. QoS can only apply where the network is set up to honor it. If your content provider uses ISP A, and ISP A is connected to backbone B, which is connected to backbone C, which is connected to your ISP D, and D sets up some fancy QoS hardware to prioritize incoming packets, that has nothing to do with A, B or C. B and C almost certainly are ignoring QoS (if any flags were set by A in the first place), and your IPTV stream is in direct competition for CPU and bandwidth with every other type of traffic travelling over the Internet.

      Now, your IPTV stream might still work 99% of the time without pixellation or dropping out, but there's no way it's going to be as reliable as your existing CATV service, which means it will be impossible for an IPTV provider that intends on competing with CATV to work if the public Internet is routing the TV stream.

      There's also the issue of scale. If HBO has a million subscribers, and all of those are unicast streams going over the public Internet, this is an ungodly amount of bandwidth. You really need multicast to do this effectively. HBO sends out a handful of streams to the providers, and the providers multicast those out to the customers. This uses a ~millionth of the bandwidth. But you know what? You can't do multicast on the public Internet either. There is simply no way to effectively do CATV-quality IPTV without end-to-end control over the network path.

    64. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      QoS decisions have to be made at the source, not the destination. If your IPTV stream has to travel over the public Internet, QoS decisions can't be made until the packets arrive at your ISP. By this time, the packets have been in direct competition with bulk file downloads and e-mail, and may be delayed or dropped equally with these other types of traffic.

      In order to get low-latency, high-priority handling of a data stream from a content provider (such as an IPTV provider intending to compete with your local cable TV company), you need end-to-end control over the network path. This can't be done over the public Internet. This means you need dedicated network connections between the content provider and your ISP, and decisions like that can't be made based on the whims of an individual subscriber.

    65. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      The ban is a consequence. ISPs can do all of the prioritization they want within their existing network infrastructure. There's just been no need to do so at this point because there's been no demand yet for CATV-quality IPTV. The problem with doing QoS only within the ISP's network boundaries is that it doesn't apply to the packets for the majority of their trip over the Internet. Up to the point where QoS takes effect, they've been in direct competition with every other bit of Internet traffic out there and may have been delayed or dropped along the way. You might get 99%, but 99% is still hopelessly inferior to existing CATV solutions so as to make an Internet-based IPTV provider unlikely to succeed. You need end-to-end QoS, which means dedicated, QoS-aware network connections to the content providers. These cost money, and it is this that Net Neutrality proponents seem to want to stop.

    66. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      My ISP doesn't have any control over that either, but that's not going to stop them from taking money from HBO, now is it?

      Well yes, actually, it would. The ISPs aren't saying, "Pay us money or we'll degrade your service." They're saying, "To give you prioritized handling, we need to set up a dedicated, QoS-aware network path from the source to our network. Pay us money to provide that connection to you."

      You can't do QoS over the public Internet, which means you can't provide CATV-quality IPTV over the public Internet.

    67. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      Exactly!

      This is why the content providers need to establish dedicated QoS-aware data connections with the consumers' Internet providers. These data connections cost money. This is what the ISPs want the content providers to pay for.

    68. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      Faster data connections won't solve the problem. Unless you have infinite amount of bandwidth, there will always be use cases where your link will become congested. BitTorrent is a perfect example. Do a file transfer and you will generally always saturate your broadband connection with traffic. If you're simultaneously trying to watch HBO over your IPTV, those packets are now in direct competition with your BitTorrent download for your (now congested) Internet connection. This means your IPTV program will start to cut out.

      QoS is needed to mitigate this problem. When your broadband connection (or any link over the data path) becomes congested, you need some way to tell the routers to give preference to your IPTV program over bulk BitTorrent data. This must necessarily be an end-to-end decision, because the backbone providers will not honor QoS. This means you need dedicated QoS-aware network connections between the content providers and your ISP, and these connections cost money.

    69. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Then the other wavelength is that what you're describing (dedicated links) has little to do with network [non-]neutrality. If the issue was simply "buy a link into our network for better service to our customers" then nobody would be up in arms. Hell, my own company's servers have links out the wazoo. The problem is that there's a strongly implied "or else we'll make your normal routing even worse than it is now" in the wording of the ISPs' positions on the subject. Ignore HBO for a second, take Google (a popular target of ISPs who think they deserve money just because someone else used them to make billions. Who do they think they are, Shuji Nakamura?).

      Think about it. When did you start having trouble searching on google? What does google stand to lose if they don't pay for these links?

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    70. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      You're right, but the issue isn't simply about people contracting for dedicated network connections. It's about IPTV. AT&T is in the process of deploying IPTV over its newer broadband connections. Since they own the network end-to-end, they can make architectural (multicast) and QoS decisions that allow them to reserve bandwidth for IPTV, guaranteeing that your TV show will remain on the air when your BitTorrent tries to monopolize your data connection.

      But other people want to do IPTV too, and if AT&T has a high-bandwidth connection into everyone's homes, why shouldn't competitors be allowed to compete with them? A "neutral" Internet means AT&T should be required to treat its IPTV services equally with every other Internet service, which either means neutering AT&T's IPTV (you lose TV whenever you start BitTorrent) or giving away free dedicated network connections to its IPTV competitors (which you then pay for in the form of new fees on your broadband bill). The alternative is a "non-neutral" Internet where potential competitors pay for the new infrastructure they'll need to ensure guaranteed, QoS-managed data service to their customers (which you then pay for in the form of fees on your content provider's IPTV bill).

      At least that's how I understand it.

    71. Re:I find this funny by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      If it's your broadband connection that's the "choke point", such as you viewing an IPTV program while downloading something with BitTorrent, your router can't do anything to ensure those two data streams are prioritized correctly. Not entirely true. If your router delays sending ACKs to packet senders (in other words not telling the sender that they have the packets OK) then the sender will slow down sending (or cease entirely until it gets more ACKs). It's one of the features of the TCP/IP beast. All your router needs to do is decide what to ACK and what to queue.

      I do like your idea of Multi-cast though. It wouldn't really be all that useful for VoIP and the like, but it would be a godsend for streaming media (TV, Radio, all that).

      I should also point out that you're wasting your breath talking to me about IPTV and CATV, neither option is available in this country.
      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    72. Re:I find this funny by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      We do specialized web-based applications, not IPTV, so we've been following this in terms of "what does that mean to us". Maybe the IPTV companies are demanding free internet links, if so, then they're way out of line, they can buy whatever connections to whichever networks they want, just like everyone else.

      This is how we see the issue as a service provider: ISP sees Company X making money (google, iTunes, etc), and wants a piece of it or their thug-routers might see to it that something terrible happens to their packets, where "a piece of it" comes from what is essentially protection money. When they tell us "buy our link for faster service" when our service is already fast enough for their customers, what we're hearing is "buy our link or be penalized". Even a little intentional throttling could become disastrous for us, if our clients' ISPs dropped every other packet, our bandwidth costs would essentially double (consider 1MB file+0.5MB retransmitted packets+0.25MB retransmitted retransmits+...=2MB) while our site would basically become unusable.

      These aren't observations we've pulled out of our ass, these are things that the CEOs of the major telecoms are saying by themselves. A competitor could convince Bellsouth to put us out of business (especially if the merger with SBC/ATT completes, making just about everyone in the US who uses DSL affected). Of course, convincing our customers to switch to cable wouldn't help, Comcast is on the bandwagon, and they've already shown that they're more than happy to cut anything they don't like out of their service.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    73. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      Not entirely true. If your router delays sending ACKs to packet senders (in other words not telling the sender that they have the packets OK) then the sender will slow down sending (or cease entirely until it gets more ACKs). It's one of the features of the TCP/IP beast. All your router needs to do is decide what to ACK and what to queue.

      This would only apply to TCP-based data streams. While that might help mitigate congestion caused by BitTorrent, not all high-bandwidth applications use TCP. So while this is a good suggestion, it's only a partial solution.

    74. Re:I find this funny by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      these are things that the CEOs of the major telecoms are saying by themselves

      I agree. But based on my own research, the CEOs are oversimplifying for the benefit of the media and are being misinterpreted by the technical audience reading that media.

      The picture you paint is indeed scary and if I'm the one who's misinterpreted things, I will be firmly by your side in protest. This scenario just doesn't seem to make business sense to me, from the perspective of the ISPs/telecoms.

    75. Re:I find this funny by kneejerker · · Score: 1

      Really? You have something to support the argument that Standard Oil didnt use standard industrial relations techniques off the time? Because the use of national guard, police units and hired thugs for strike-breaking and general quashing of any attempt at unionized labor by US industrial companies prior to the 60's is pretty well documented. If you have some evidence that S.O was the lone, shining example of good regarding such, then I will happily withdraw all commentary made above :)

    76. Re:I find this funny by Just+Another+Poster · · Score: 1
      Really? You have something to support the argument that Standard Oil didnt use standard industrial relations techniques off the time? Because the use of national guard, police units and hired thugs for strike-breaking and general quashing of any attempt at unionized labor by US industrial companies prior to the 60's is pretty well documented. If you have some evidence that S.O was the lone, shining example of good regarding such, then I will happily withdraw all commentary made above :)

      The only instances where violence was used against unions in America was when unions were using violence against non-striking workers, and trespassing on or vandalizing private property.

  2. oh boy by syrinx · · Score: 2, Funny

    because Elbereth knows, when I think about things that are helpful, efficient, and beneficial to everyone, the first thing that comes to mind is "US government regulations".

    --
    Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
  3. Way off topic by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah I know, nothing to do with the article, but I'd prefer that congress draft legislation to ban the use of the word embolden. I also nominate incentivize and impactful.

    Feel free to mod me down.

    Oh and to you it's a living language people, I know, but these bastardizations can in no way improve our ability to communicate.

    1. Re:Way off topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Embolden: Origin: 1495-1505
      Incentivize: Origin: 1965-1970
      Not exactly new, eh?
      As for "impactful", I agree, it needs to go. Maybe doubleplusimpact?

    2. Re:Way off topic by somersault · · Score: 4, Funny

      If I could I wouldn't just mod you down, I'd provide impactful incentives that would embolden other mods to bastardizate your karma. But I can't, so I guess I'll just have to say that I agree with you.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:Way off topic by Monkelectric · · Score: 1

      Embolden is a perfectly cromulent word.

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

    4. Re:Way off topic by Zeek40 · · Score: 1

      Stop it! You're de-moralifying the living language community!

    5. Re:Way off topic by JKConsult · · Score: 1

      Well, it is a living language, but I do agree with you in general.

      However, the OED would tell you that embolden has a very long and rich history as a word, dating back to Milton and before. Incentivize only dates back to 1968, so it's somewhat close. Impactful comes nowhere near the OED.

  4. 1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by shirizaki · · Score: 2, Interesting

    C'mon congress, learn from history. The second internet companies are allowed to make tiered internet is the day internet and porn dies. Do you want to be on the receiving end of THAT backlash?

    This is a step to limit the internet companies from rippnig the money from my wallet, but letting AT&T regain itself from a century of being split was a mistake. The evil has respawned, and threatens my porn.

    --
    In Soviet Russia, dots slash you!
    1. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by dr_dank · · Score: 3, Insightful

      C'mon congress, learn from history.

      If they truely learned from history, the Justice Department wouldn't allow AT&T to buy up its old subsidiaries that it took years of court battles to cleave apart.

      and I'm SURE it wouldn't have anything to do with letting the intelligence agencies have unfettered access to the data flowing through the pipes in exhange for resurrecting Ma Bell with little fanfare.

      --
      Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
    2. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by xantho · · Score: 1

      Yeah, it's strange that the government these days has basically told the world that divestiture was just a joke and that we were only kidding. I wonder what the endgame of all the old RBOCs is going to look like. We're down to the new AT&T, Verizon, and Qwest from the original 8 (7 RBOCs and one long distance provider).

    3. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by Billosaur · · Score: 1

      C'mon congress, learn from history. The second internet companies are allowed to make tiered internet is the day internet and porn dies. Do you want to be on the receiving end of THAT backlash?

      Congress, counting its kickback and PAC money: "Huh... did someone say something? I thought I heard something... 1 million, 5 hundred, 30 thousand and 1... 1 million, 5 hundred, 30 thousand and 2...

      --
      GetOuttaMySpace - The Anti-Social Network
    4. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by jrumney · · Score: 1

      the Justice Department wouldn't allow AT&T to buy up its old subsidiaries

      Isn't it more a case of

      In Capitalist America, your former subsidiaries buy you!
    5. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by Sleeping+Kirby · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to note that it's not that AT&T bought up it's old subsidiaries again. The Subsidaries bought them up. (Because AT&T!=at&t See? It's not capitialized so it's different. :p Yeah, I work for one of their subsidiaries.)

      --
      please... let me sleep... a little more... yay, no longer annonmyous coward.
    6. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by markbt73 · · Score: 1

      The second internet companies are allowed to make tiered internet is the day internet and porn dies. Oh jeez... don't tell them THAT... those prudes in Congress will start mandating tiered service.
      --
      "Oh boy! Are we going to try something dangerous?"
    7. Re:1900s:telephones::2000s:internets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      C'mon congress, learn from history. The second internet companies are allowed to make tiered internet is the day internet and porn dies. Do you want to be on the receiving end of THAT backlash?

      porn... receiving end... backlash. I know what you're thinking. But don't forget what they say about prudes.

  5. IPTV by xantho · · Score: 1

    How does the idea of net neutrality affect possible quality of service efforts needed to make IPTV and VOIP solid and usable? I mean, what if an ISP actually wanted to make it easy for you to use VOIP providers for phone service. Bell South already has test IPTV service for really really special people in Atlanta, so obviously, they're looking into how to roll that out en masse. It'll be important to be able to ensure that enough bandwidth is available on the pipe for an uninterrupted IPTV signal to be feasible.

    So, as long as net neutrality doesn't preclude those QoS efforts, it can work. But besides that, why is it the government's place to dictate that kind of stuff? I mean, ideally, competition in the marketplace would be the determining factor of whether a non-neutral policy of charging for priority is a workable model for data access, right? I guess there isn't a whole lot of competition among high speed internet access providers, but I'd think that between cable modems, ILEC DSL, Earthlink DSL, and satellite connections, we'd be able to see this thing shake out in the marketplace.

    1. Re:IPTV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Net neutrality has bugger all to do with QoS or anything like that on a protocol level. It is on a content provider level. Most ISPs already use QoS (packet shaping) to stop BitTorrent traffic from crippling their networks.

      e.g.

      microsoft.com runs a lot faster than linux.com because microsoft.com paid your ISP so that their HTTP traffic has higher priority than other HTTP traffic.

      QoS differentiates between protocols. Removing net neutrality allows ISPs to charge (blackmail) providers (sites) for priority.

    2. Re:IPTV by PingSpike · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The concern isn't that the telcos will use QoS to make their IPTV service faster. Its that they'll choke any IPTV packets that don't come from their own IPTV service, effectively shutting the competitors out of the market and leaving you with yet another local monopoly to deal with. Or try to extort money out of big content providers like google for instance. Hell, one of those fat fucks actually said he was planning on doing just that.

    3. Re:IPTV by xantho · · Score: 1

      So you're saying that if an ISP gave priority to their own VOIP or IPTV packets, which necessarily means that all the other packets are at a detriment, then the senders of the other packets wouldn't have a legitimate gripe with the ISP?

      Fine, your idea of quality of service is different than mine. Let's not debate semantics. (At least, not until I say so... :))

    4. Re:IPTV by KonoWatakushi · · Score: 1

      Hopefully any net neutrality legislation will do exactly that, but it is doubtful. QoS will never work on the Internet itself; allowing it will only further discrimination of traffic, and promote abuse of it. Traffic on the internet should be treated fairly, and QoS does not do that.

      There is only one way to ensure quality VOIP and IPTV, and that is to run these services on private networks. On networks where multicast can be supported. On networks where QoS can be properly implemented. These networks should to be funded by the services that run on them, and the rest of us shouldn't have to pay for them.

      This does not mean that Vonage and the like can not be run over the Internet. As long as there is no discrimination, and there is adequate capacity, it should still run fine. This goes for everything on the Internet. By trying to support QoS at that level, it only provides an excuse to degrade service of non-blessed traffic instead of increasing capacity.

      On the Internet, no traffic should have priority, period. If that isn't good enough, then you need to pay for access to private networks where service can be guaranteed.

    5. Re:IPTV by xantho · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I absolutely believe that your scenario is much more likely than the one that I posed. I just worry that enforcing net neutrality from the get go will necessarily preclude IPTV efforts from being started in the first place, simply because an ISP won't be able to guarantee enough bandwidth for that signal when it's mixed in with the other traffic in your connection. I'm not trying to rehash the tubes vs. trucks argument for the general internet, but when you look at nodes on the edge of the network, e.g., me in my house with my cable modem, you really are looking at one connection with limited bandwidth and applications and protocols that are greedy and don't necessarily play fair with each other with regard to the capacity of the connection. So it's going to take some kind of effort to make sure that constant bandwidth applications are ensured a certain amount of bandwidth. A reasonable person could make the argument that if an ISP is giving a benefit to some packets originating at their premesis, then there's an inequity that makes their data arrive more slowly, and makes their service appear slower to the user. And they'd be right.

    6. Re:IPTV by PingSpike · · Score: 1

      Its by no means a totally black and white issue. They never are. However, I believe the bill has some level of allowances for QoS, but I could be wrong. And even that is kind of debatable about whether should be any sactioned management at all. But given how telephone and cable companies have operated in the past, and what have actually said they have planned for the future...I'm envisioning a choice between potentially clunky operation of some protocols and large amounts of internet scisms and the general loss of what made the internet so powerful in the first place.

      If they're allowed to choke off whatever they please, its no longer an open internet with an equal burden of entry. If I start up some company that competes with say, ebay, I'll have to pay my bandwidth bills and some kind of extortion fees to every ISP I want to service (completely). They talk about going after the big guy to get money out of them, but those big guys have enough clout that they can throw a little weight around themselves. It won't be long until they start trying to hit guys further down the ladder up as well. Only guys with a lot of money will be able to get their stuff out their effectively, and I just don't want things to end up that way.

      The whole thing got me thinking if it would be feasible and practical to run a web server with a bittorrent style peer to peer network. Thats a market workaround.

    7. Re:IPTV by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      Removing net neutrality allows ISPs to charge (blackmail) providers (sites) for priority.

      QoS is only usable within a certain administrative domain. Within your ISP, they might use QoS, but any traffic to/from the public Internet is not QoS-managed. It can't be. If any Internet Joe had the capability of setting QoS flags on his packets, think of the abuse that would cause.

      Further, ISPs can't simply set QoS flags on inbound traffic from certain providers and not others. Ignoring the legal/business issues, these flags only take effect once the packet enters the ISP's network. Since QoS doesn't occur on the public Internet, all of that data has already been in competition with all of the other data out there and will arrive missing packets and with delays.

      It's not about blackmail. Traffic on the public Internet will (necessarily) remain undifferentiated and unprioritized. The problem is that unprioritized traffic (like that on the public Internet) is inappropriate for high-bandwidth, low-latency services such as IPTV. Today, we have a "neutral" Internet. This means that when you try to stream video from a content provider, you get occasional hiccups, and if you attempt to download some data while watching your video, your Internet connection becomes congested and it suffers even further; the two data transfers are undifferentiated and impacted equally.

      There is a finite amount of data you can shove down a pipe, and with no QoS and no prioritization of packets, nothing has precedence and everything is degraded equally. Now imagine IPTV services running over this type of network:

      You're watching your favorite TV show, and your son starts playing a game, or your spouse starts uploading some data to the office. Your TV show starts getting pixelated and cuts out. No consumer would want this. In an era where your TV signal is transmitted over your Internet connection, you're likely to want your TV signal to have a certain guaranteed quality of service, right?

      So how do you do that? You can't do QoS over the Internet, but you need QoS between your content provider and your TV. Your ISP can do QoS, but they can't do it over the Internet. They have to set up a private, dedicated network connection between themselves and the content provider. That's the only way you're going to be guaranteed bandwidth all the way from the content provider to your TV, and at that point your Internet connection can look at the QoS flags and slow packets destined for your children's online game or your spouse's data transfer to keep the TV channel going without interruption.

      Network Neutrality simply means that the ISP is either not allowed to set up that dedicated network connection to the content provider, or if they decide to do it, they have to eat the cost (and by "eat the cost", we mean, "pass the cost onto the consumer").

      Forget about the "Net Neutrality" label for a moment and ask yourself which of these scenarios is more appealing:

      • Unprioritized traffic, your file download competes with HBO (neutral Internet)
      • Prioritized traffic, but either your ISP or content provider bill goes up to pay for it (non-neutral Internet)

      So do you want reliable TV service, or do you want your channels to cut out whenever you download something over the Internet? You can't have "neutral" prioritization, and if you tell your ISP that they have to eat the cost and set up dedicated networks for prioritized traffic to everyone who wants one, then everyone's going to want one and now you have to worry about premium content A competing with premium content B (not to mention the hike in your ISP's bill).

      When you realize that you really do have to have prioritized, non-neutral network traffic, the next question becomes: Who pays for it? What do you think the fair thing to do is?

    8. Re:IPTV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As far as I know, nobody is against providers giving priority to VOIP traffic or IPTV traffic over, say, text traffic. But it should be NEUTRALLY prioritized in that the originating company should not have anything to do with it.

      As long as any VOIP/IPTV traffic has the same priority as any other, then no problem. But if the signal of XYZ company's IPTV traffic gets a higher priority than the traffic from ABC company because XYZ could afford to pay a higher fee, THEN we have problems and a sort of capitalistic censorship that net neutrality seeks to prevent.

    9. Re:IPTV by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      If they're allowed to choke off whatever they please, its no longer an open internet with an equal burden of entry.

      An important thing to remember here is that there aren't any more chokes than existed previously. If you stream video today and start a large data transfer, your data connection becomes congested and both transfers are "choked" equally. QoS and prioritization simply set up rules that allow some traffic to avoid being choked while other traffic is disproportionately affected, but if your data connection is never congested, you will never see these effects. You can avoid congestion the same way you've always done it: don't do too many things at once over the same connection. Turn off your IPTV stream if you want to maximize the bandwidth available to some unprioritized traffic.

    10. Re:IPTV by creysoft · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So, your argument is that we should give ISPs carte blanche to turn the internet into their own personal profit wagon, just so you can watch HBO without glitches?

      Network Neutrality simply means that the ISP is either not allowed to set up that dedicated network connection to the content provider, or if they decide to do it, they have to eat the cost (and by "eat the cost", we mean, "pass the cost onto the consumer").

      And since that would jack your IPTV bill up beyond reason, nobody will buy IPTV. Hmmm... You know, having read all of the comments to this point, I'm coming to one undeniable conclusion: Maybe IPTV just isn't a good idea right now? If we had the bandwidth that's considered "normal" in most of developed Europe, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. But no, we live in a place where a 5Mb/s burst on a typical home connection is considered phenomenal.

      Why don't we let the ISPs who want to roll out IPTV so much actually build the infrastructure that we paid them billions in tax dollars to build for us? Then perhaps we'll have enough bandwidth that they can roll out all their nifty services without needing to destroy the way the internet currently works.

      I'm sorry, but if I have to choose between handing a bunch of obviously crooked corporations unfettered access to turn the Internet into their own, personal plaything, and letting Joe Sixpack suffer through some lag on iHBO.... so be it. I choose the internet.

      --
      Formerly GNU/Anonymous Coward. This message has been determined to cause cancer in laboratory animals.
    11. Re:IPTV by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      And since that would jack your IPTV bill up beyond reason, nobody will buy IPTV.


      Not at all. I imagine the increases would be reasonable, but they'd be increases nevertheless. This is really secondary to the neutrality debate, though. If you want to prioritize traffic, somebody has to pay for it. You'll ultimately pay for it, but that question is really just about who has to be the bad guy hiking their rates.



      So, your argument is that we should give ISPs carte blanche to turn the internet into their own personal profit wagon


      I still don't understand why people return to this theme. My connection to my ISP is already my ISP's personal profit wagon. If my ISP were to come up to me one day and say, "We're going to limit your download speeds to all of these sites that haven't paid us money to 10kbps," I would leave them and find a new ISP. This would be a stupid business move on their part. In reality, what they're saying is, "We're not going to give 'express', low-latency, high-bandwidth service to all of these sites that haven't paid us money. But we're leaving everything else as it is today." And I think that's fine.



      Is there something more to this than a conspiracy theory?

    12. Re:IPTV by businessnerd · · Score: 1

      Packet prioritization can be done in a neutral way, and I think that this is something that is necessary. Take VOIP, for example. In order to ensure that voice calls can get through and also that they are smooth and have little, if any, delay, VOIP packets need to have precedence over HTML packets. The 911 call is much more important than pictures of Aunt Sally's vacation. If the 911 call is unclear or does not get through at all, lives could be at stake. If Aunt Sally's vacation pictures take an extra few seconds to download, no one is going to care, or even notice. IPTV also has a large QoS factor, and there will be many unhappy customers if the TV signal is choppy. Priority needs to be given to packets that require a high QoS level

      Now the important factor here is that this prioritzation is done neutrally. A VOIP call from a Comcast customer should receive the same priority as a VOIP call from a Vonage customer. Comcast should not be able to "sub-prioritize" in favor of its own services. Afterall, a VOIP call that is long distance will travel across multiple ISP's before it gets to its destination, and all of those ISP's should treat the call equally.

      In a perfect world, prioritization neutrality wouldn't even be necessary, because the ISP's would be separate from the content providers. I would like it if say Verizon provided me with a working fiber link and nothing else. I would then subscribe to VOIP service and TV service from third party content providers who would all be able to compete on a level playing field for my business.

      --
      "It's not whether you win or lose, it's how drunk you get." -- H. J. Simpson
    13. Re:IPTV by Silik · · Score: 1

      If you want to prioritize traffic, somebody has to pay for it. You'll ultimately pay for it, but that question is really just about who has to be the bad guy hiking their rates. Why does someone have to pay if I want to prioritize traffic? I do that already... game running to slow? Kill the download. Where're those extra dollars when I prioritize things?
    14. Re:IPTV by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      You can avoid congestion the same way you've always done it: don't do too many things at once over the same connection.

      Well, only if the congestion is at your DSL modem/etc. If the congestion is at the OC3 line leading out of your ISP you'll have issues no matter what you do. Right now ISPs avoid such congestion, since customers would complain. Once they start charging for QoS they'll be sure to stop expanding their bandwidth - otherwise they don't have anything to sell (who needs QoS when you aren't bandwidth-starved?). Then pay-to-play websites will get the same service they get now, and anybody else will get degraded service. If you are in an area like mine you'll only have one or two choices for an ISP, and both will probably be doing the same thing.

      If the telecoms really just cared about congestion at your DSL modem they'd just stop filtering out the QoS bits and instead ignore them everywhere but on the two ends of your DSL line. You'd get all the benefits of QoS without any disruption to your neighbors - if this remains the main choke-point. No need to charge money for it.

    15. Re:IPTV by Anonymous+Cowpat · · Score: 1

      Right up until your ISP sees packets coming in from a competitors IPTV service and 'shapes' the connection by randomly delaying all those packets by between 1 and 5 seconds leaving them horribly lagged and completely out of order. You go back to using your ISP's homebred IPTV service because it works flawlessly.
      Or if M$ pays your ISP a jawdropping sum of money to delay all your communication with google, yahoo and ask.com by 10 seconds each way and randomly drop 25% of all the packets, driving you to MSNsearch.

      Some QoS packet shaping is necessary, what needs to be done is to ensure that deciding what filtering rules to apply is determined solely by sane rules (like, these packets need priority because this technology won't work without them having priority) and most definitely not 'who pays the most money'. Likewise all packets that are equal from a technical standpoint (HTTP packets from M$, google, slashdot and anicecupofteaandasitdown.com, say) need to be treated equally - there's no technical reason not to treat them equally. Making sure that they are not, therefore, treated differently is what this legislation should be aiming for. How you define 'good technical reason' and what you do to ensure compliance, on the other hand, should keep m'learned friends busy for hours.

      --
      FGD 135
    16. Re:IPTV by creysoft · · Score: 1
      First, I want to thank you for a damned fine, well thought out, measured reply. Certainly one that warrants answers to your questions.

      Not at all. I imagine the increases would be reasonable, but they'd be increases nevertheless. This is really secondary to the neutrality debate, though. If you want to prioritize traffic, somebody has to pay for it. You'll ultimately pay for it, but that question is really just about who has to be the bad guy hiking their rates.
      I don't think it's really secondary to the debate at all. You're exactly right - if we let them prioritize traffic, I'm going to have to eventually pay for it. And I don't want to. I understand you'll argue that this is only true if I want to take advantage of the benefits offered by the prioritized traffic, but I feel pretty confident that that won't the case.

      I still don't understand why people return to this theme. My connection to my ISP is already my ISP's personal profit wagon. If my ISP were to come up to me one day and say, "We're going to limit your download speeds to all of these sites that haven't paid us money to 10kbps," I would leave them and find a new ISP. This would be a stupid business move on their part. In reality, what they're saying is, "We're not going to give 'express', low-latency, high-bandwidth service to all of these sites that haven't paid us money. But we're leaving everything else as it is today." And I think that's fine.
      The reason we keep returning to that theme is because we don't share your optimistic view of ISPs' business ethics. First of all, there are a handful of people in the world who, faced with several of their favorite websites loading slowly, would assume (or even be capable of understanding) that it's their ISPs fault. Most will blame their computer, "the internet," and eventually the websites they're trying to visit. It's not like the ISPs going to email people and say, "Hey, Google's not paying us our extortion money, so we're throttling their connection." They'll just quietly throttle it down, and then send an email saying something to the effect of, "Try MSN Search Today for Free! It's acccurate, helpful, and fast!"

      In any event, it's simple logic. Historically, ISPs have been required to provide treat all content equally and fairly. So when a service provider works to improve their network, the improvements are across the board. Google loads faster for you. Chickswithdicks.com loads faster for me. By allowing ISPs start 'prioritizing' traffic, we're going to end up with a situation where 90% of connections is "low profit, public internet," and 10% is "high profit, paid content," or "high profit, in-house service." Where do you think the ISP is going to concentrate most of its resources? With no real profit motive to improve the part of its business that doesn't make it very much money (and no real competition to force them into it), it's easy to see the public internet languishing ISPs pour more and more resources into building private networks of profitable in house services and dedicated connections to large content providers.

      Anyway, that's my concern. Perhaps you can't see this happening, but I can't see it happening any other way.
      --
      Formerly GNU/Anonymous Coward. This message has been determined to cause cancer in laboratory animals.
    17. Re:IPTV by Fastolfe · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but any cable TV competitor has got to work better than this. You shouldn't have to shout to your kids downstairs to stop playing their online game because your shows are cutting out. Keep in mind that this "net neutrality" debate isn't about existing Internet applications. You can hop on YouTube today and it works fine. It's about emerging IPTV applications.

    18. Re:IPTV by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      I understand you'll argue that this is only true if I want to take advantage of the benefits offered by the prioritized traffic, but I feel pretty confident that that won't the case.

      I doubt it too. Since prioritization of "premium" data would require significant infrastructure changes, I imagine those costs would be spread among all of the customers and implemented throughout the network, not just on your personal broadband connection. Even if you're given the option to control or turn it off on your broadband connection, there will still likely be some form of QoS applying to the data elsewhere in the network, if only to ensure that the data is there "on time" should you or your neighbor choose to allow it to be prioritized over your own broadband connection.

      They'll just quietly throttle it down

      The technology needed to "throttle" things in the manner you're suggesting is completely different from the QoS technologies normally discussed in connection with Net Neutrality. ISPs have had the capability of doing traffic shaping to degrade service since ISPs have been in business.

      The prioritization that comes with QoS only matters when there's congestion. As long as every link between your content provider and you is humming along below capacity, things will arrive (pretty much) as fast as they could reasonably arrive. Only when you see congestion, such as you viewing an IPTV stream while doing a BitTorrent download at the same time, does QoS and prioritization become a factor.

      Now, this isn't really an argument against your point about business ethics. Just because businesses haven't done this sort of thing already doesn't mean they can't start today. But shaping traffic in this manner is fundamentally different from QoS as normally discussed. The capability of deliberately degrading service is not what ISPs are asking for. They're asking for the ability to prioritize when congestion would force something to be degraded.

      With no real profit motive to improve the part of its business that doesn't make it very much money

      I see your point, but take this to an extreme. What if the ISP decided to simply cut off access to "non-premium" sites? Their customers would leave in droves, right? So customers do value access to the general Internet, and I think that an ISPs ability and willingness to give good service to those sites will absolutely continue to be a deciding factor when customers choose to give them their business.

      Maybe I am being overly optimistic. But per-user, the revenue these ISPs obtain from their "premium content" partners isn't going to even approach the revenue they're going to get from the customer's broadband connection itself. If HBO offered their service over IPTV, there's no way their per-user costs to the ISP are going to equal my broadband connection. There's no way I'm going to be paying $100/month to subscribe to HBO. It seems like a terrible business decision to move so far in favor of the minority of your revenue when it means the majority is going to decide to take their business elsewhere.

    19. Re:IPTV by Fastolfe · · Score: 1
      Right now ISPs avoid such congestion, since customers would complain. Once they start charging for QoS they'll be sure to stop expanding their bandwidth

      Why? Wouldn't customers still complain?

      Then pay-to-play websites will get the same service they get now, and anybody else will get degraded service.

      Wouldn't this be obvious to customers? Wouldn't this be a good reason to move to a competitor? ISPs have the capability of degrading service today. Why haven't they done it? Probably because customers would leave?

      stop filtering out the QoS bits and instead ignore them everywhere but on the two ends of your DSL line. You'd get all the benefits of QoS without any disruption to your neighbors

      The reason QoS bits are filtered is because you can't trust them when they're coming over the public Internet. Honoring untrustworthy QoS bits on your broadband connection would allow for unprecedented effectiveness in DoS attacks, and allow incompetent providers to set QoS flags that have no business being set. Imagine a file download service purporting to be faster than their competitors. They do this by setting QoS flags. Yes, they're faster, but QoS is also prioritizing them equally with your IPTV, so now your TV goes out whenever you download from this service. This is why dedicated connections to content providers are necessary, when those content providers wish to provide time-sensitive data such as IPTV. You need a trusted path in order to do QoS. This is why money must change hands. Someone has to pay for it.

    20. Re:IPTV by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Well, if the only concern was DoS or other non-customer-approved use there is a simple solution - just give customers a website allowing them to specify domains/netblocks that are exempt from QoS filters. If they can base their filters on who is paying them, they can certainly base it on what the customer wants.

      Implement QoS in a way that any given customer on average gets the same bandwidth, but QoS bits can be used to prioritize traffic for a single customer, or to prioritize across multiple customers for short bursts only. Also allow end-users to buy higher levels of service (which is already something ISPs sell).

      Make the end-user the customer - not the remote site.

  6. Tell me how to do my job. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't understand Net Neutrality all that well but I'm sure I'm more knowledgeable than than any Congress Person.

    Who can blame them for listening to a AT&T/Mega Ma Bell loybbyist-friend-wife?

    I do have faith in the "market" and the community. Our (US) POTS have sucked for a long time but they market responded. Many people have abandoned the "government solution" because it is slow/wrong/evil/expensive/wasteful.

  7. I don't know why by SNR+monkey · · Score: 3, Funny

    They're perfectly cromulent words that embiggen the language.

  8. We must always rely... by HerculesMO · · Score: 1

    on those in the center to make the rational choices to help lead our country forward. Olympia Snowe is one such example, and has continually been in her years of public office.

    --
    The price is always right if someone else is paying.
  9. Idiot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why don't you stop being a knee-jerk libertarian for a minute and think about things. It sounds like you would like to repeal all laws. I'm sure you'd scream bloody hell if some Govt. backed Corporation walked up and took all your land for a casino for the "Betterment of the Community". Anyone that thinks that large corporations will look out for any interests other than the large stockholders needs their head examined. Look what happened to Enron. That's the poster child for your deregulated market.

    1. Re:Idiot. by dada21 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't mod this guy troll, mod him funny.

      Enron was the poster child of over-regulation -- everything Enron did was because it was allowed monopoly status in a market that was never deregulated. They tried to free wholesale prices from regulation but capped retail prices. That's like saying oil should be a free market for wholesalers, but don't sell it for more than $1 to consumers. The same thing would happen. Bad accounting practices doesn't come from corporations, it comes from impossible-to-understand tax and accounting rules -- loopholes don't exist in a free market.

    2. Re:Idiot. by je+ne+sais+quoi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think anyone's going to believe you that bad accounting practices don't come from corporations, the tax code contribute but the bad accounting comes straight from the business itself. The problem with deregulation is that you are forced to assume that a free market is actually free. The reality is that corporations are only mandated to create a profit for their CEO's and their shareholders and they will do so however they can. Thus it is in a corporation's interest to try to remove competition and ensure a steady stream of profit for the forseeable future, i.e., not make the market free. Why is it that libertarians ask for more of the same after they've been bent over a barrel?

      --
      Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the war room!
    3. Re:Idiot. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with modern version of Corporations is that nobody is willing to revoke a corporate charter for malfeasance by the corporation. I guarantee that if stock holders entire value was at risk for the ENRON type accounting fraud, they would enact much stricter guidelines for accounting than even the government requires. But since nobody is willing to revoke corporate charters and let the chips fall, we have an artificial barrier to self policing within the corporation.

      Throwing Ken Lay and a few others in jail for what happened at ENRON, isn't going to prevent others from trying similar tactics. And the share holders didn't care a lick when the profits were rolling in. The employees were rewarded for their lack of oversight. Enron only collapsed when it couldn't maintain the pyramid scheme. Up until that point, not enough people cared about Enron, nor its profits enough to stop it before it happened.

      I guarantee you that if the corporate charter could have been revoked, that threat would have had an entirely different effect. When profits are the only care, rather than proper stewardship of all the corporate assets, these things are bound to happen.

      BTW, The government grants corporate charters, as they are legal entities ordained by the government under the rules of incorporation. The government has lost sight that they can also revoke said charters.

      So, while your slam against "libertarians" was funny, it wasn't accurate towards true libertarians, who believe that ALL stockholders and stakeholders are responsible and should be held accountable for the actions of the corporation, at least to the degree of how much stock or stake holdings they have.

      I don't feel a bit sorry for Enron employees, shareholders or anyone associated with Enron. They got what they deserved for not looking deeper into those put in position of stewardship.

      I feel sorry for the stupid grandmas and grandpas who were suckered, but only to a degree. Rarely does "get rich quick" actually work. Most of the time it takes hard work or true innovation and often both.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Idiot. by squiggleslash · · Score: 1
      The problem with modern version of Corporations is that nobody is willing to revoke a corporate charter for malfeasance by the corporation. I guarantee that if stock holders entire value was at risk for the ENRON type accounting fraud, they would enact much stricter guidelines for accounting than even the government requires. But since nobody is willing to revoke corporate charters and let the chips fall, we have an artificial barrier to self policing within the corporation.

      I'm not sure I follow.

      While the stock holder's "entire value" may, superficially, have not been at risk, in practice a large number of investors, particularly employees (who, one might argue, were those who could hold the corporation accountable the most), did, in practice, lose everything, or a close enough approximation that the difference doesn't matter.

      The second part has little to do with the first. ENRON's corporate charter, in effect, was revoked, by bankruptsy. Yes, some kind of shell still exists, but it's a set of legal fictions that have nothing to do with reality. The company known as ENRON in 2001 no longer exists. No entity exists that resembles that organization in any sense, and only a handful of people, largely unrelated to the scandal, have benefited from its demise.

      I agree corporations should be held more accountable, but ENRON is a poor poster child for that cause. The general culture of the corporation that lead it to creating artificial energy shortages in California were the same as the culture that lead to the explicitly illegal actions that lead to its downfull. It was caught in the net within a year or two of its bad faith becoming evident, the real problems are the companies that aren't.

      --
      You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
    5. Re:Idiot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Regulations aren't the problem, it's fiat currency, remember?

    6. Re:Idiot. by shaneh0 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The success of the freemarket can be measured by look at the whole of human history prior to the 20th century.

      There were thousands of years when all you needed to be, say, a shop keeper was a shop to keep. No business license or sales tax or liability insurance or health codes.

      Socialism and a regulated market economy are inventions of the past 100 years. Maybe it's just a total coincidence that during this time a middle class emerged, but I really doubt that.

      We did it your way for 10,000 years. Now it's time to try it our way.

    7. Re:Idiot. by lawpoop · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is patently untrue. For thousands of years, if you wanted to be a shopkeeper, all you needed was your dad to keep shop. If you wanted to be a blacksmith, all you needed was your father to be blacksmith. That's why we have family names like Smith, Miller, and Farmer. Occupations were something that belonged within a family.

      For most of human history, there was an upper class of elites, about 10% of the population, who ruled over the other 90% who grew food and served the elites. There are variations throughout the world, but this is the basic pattern. There was no free market or middle class or political freedom. Wikipedia says this about free markets: "The consensus among economic historians is that the free market economy is a specific historic phenomenon, and that it emerged in late medieval and early-modern Europe". It gets a little convoluted in places like Europe and India, where what emerges is a system of classes or casts: the religious/priest group, the warrior/nobility, and the mercantile class. But don't think that there was a free market. Kings had absolute power; they could levy fines, confiscate assets, fix prices, etc. etc. What emerged out of the class struggles of Europe was the idea of liberty -- freedom -- where nobody, not a King, not a priest, could tell you want to do. Applied to economics, the conclusion is the free market. You don't need the church fixing the price of apples, claiming that changing prices was a challenge to Go'ds natural order. Applied to politics, we get the idea of political freedom and the rights of man.

      Hunter gathers do/did live in a society with greater political and economic freedom, but technically, that's before history, since history is the recorded word. Furthermore, those societies are ruled by complex system of obligations to kin, so you can't really say that they have absolute freedom. As far as taxes, they have been part of business for as long as we have recorded history. The very first writings were receipts for business transactions. You needed these so that the King's tax collector wouldn't demand more than you owed, and the tax collector wanted to see that you weren't cheating him.

      So basically you're taking this libertarian fantasy of a free market and applying it backwards into history where it never really existed.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    8. Re:Idiot. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      Whoops! I read about half your post before I when off on my anti-libertarian rant. Sorry!

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    9. Re:Idiot. by Itchyeyes · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hunter gathers do/did live in a society with greater political and economic freedom, but technically, that's before history, since history is the recorded word. It's easy to live in a society with greater economic freedom when you're society doesn't have an economy. For a society to have an economy there has to be some form of trade, which in turn implies some form of division of labor. In a hunter gatherer society nearly everyone performs the same function to support themselves. Once agriculture enters the picture you begin to see these things, however you also begin to see the beginnings of governments that restrict and control trade.
    10. Re:Idiot. by lawpoop · · Score: 1

      That's not entirely correct really true. In hunter/gatherers, the exchange and distribution of food is mostly what we are talking about. But you are right -- in all other material culture, such as tools, clothing, pottery, etc. most adults are self-sufficient.

      There is a division of labor. The first division of labor is between productive adults and the elderly/children, who cannot provide for themselves, and then between men and women. Human beings typically cannot fully provide for all their needs on their own. We rely on our families to meet our basic everyday economic needs. For western people, that means the nuclear family, but for hunter/gatherers, that means you have obligations with all kinds of cousins and aunts and uncles. When you go out hunting or gathering, it's kind of a lottery; you might not find anything, but then if you do find something, it's way more than you can eat right now, and you have no refrigerator. So, you bring it back to the village and share it with everyone.

      When we talk about trade in the modern western world, we usually are talking about interacting with strangers who we have no relationship with other than economic. When talking about the distribution of food. So you will find a lot of trade in hunter/gatherer society, but it is highly ritualized and traditional. Along the lines of, if you go out hunting and get a warthog, your cross-cousin gets the left leg, your parallel cousin gets the right, your parents get this cut, etc. etc. If you get a caribou, then your parents get the head and the liver, your cross-cousin gets the rump, etc. etc.

      So theoretically you could give the meat away to anyone you wanted to, but they choose to keep of traditional distribution models lest they face ostracism. These traditions also make sure that *you* get some meat when you come home empty-handed.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    11. Re:Idiot. by suitepotato · · Score: 1

      Socialism and a regulated market economy are inventions of the past 100 years. Maybe it's just a total coincidence that during this time a middle class emerged, but I really doubt that.

      You say that as if it is a good thing. All the middle class really are is economic addicts. Their drug is comfort and their price paid is to turn a blind eye to reality or join in with one of various competing sides but never ever standing up for their own because they're too desirous of that comfort high to even known what their own side is.

      Anyone telling you of a problem will be selling you the solution for it whether or not either ever existed to begin with and by the time anyone bothers to wonder about that, we're twenty problems and solutions on into the future and really, we're more comfortable with delegating our power away to others as long as they promise us the comfort of total ignorance and utter detachment.

      Gun control, abortion, voting rights, poverty, racism, sexism, every cause that you can think of was a cause of others visited on the masses as some overtly important and all-powerful issue and if you just delegate your power to whoever, whoever will take care of it for you no matter which side of whatever you thought you gravitated to. All this when all that was needed was for individuals to stop thinking like groups and start thinking like individuals one to one. Funny how the golden rule doesn't figure into any of the solutions. Or maybe that's because if any so-called issues was ever solved, there would be no need for those peddling the solutions.

      All the middle class are is a resevoir of power for the power-hungry, self-aggrandizing, and self-important whether knowingly cynical or merely as self-deluded as those they seduce so easily to signing over their power of self determination. Not saying which side is right or wrong, only that the sides don't exist.

      Classes are an invention of the mind and perpetuated by those with a stake in keeping the idea real in our minds and those who don't know any better, but should.

      --
      If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
    12. Re:Idiot. by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Even if there were no regulations at all on the electricity market, Enron could still have easily manipulated it by turning off generators as it did. Even if they turned off all the generators, by the time any competitor managed to build a facility to replace them, Enron would have turned them back on, rendering the facility redundant.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    13. Re:Idiot. by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

      Oh yea, you're totally right. Things were much much better when there were 3% super rich and 97% super poor.

      Chances are you are sitting squarely inside that middle class, so forgive the humor I derive from your very parochial rant.

    14. Re:Idiot. by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      "While the stock holder's "entire value" may, superficially, have not been at risk, in practice a large number of investors, particularly employees (who, one might argue, were those who could hold the corporation accountable the most), did, in practice, lose everything, or a close enough approximation that the difference doesn't matter."

      Right, but whose fault is that? Ken Lay took the brunt of the blame. The Employees and other stakeholders are also to blame, because they weren't diligent enough during the "good years" and greed took over all rational thought.

      I personally know someone who smelled the coming fart that was the collapse of Enron years beforehand, and got out. He left because nobody CARED, just as long as the profits kept coming.

      Sorry, but I have little sympothy to people who look the other way for a buck.

      As for revoking the corporate charter, it still hasn't been revoked "in effect" reality), as the corporation still exists even as a shell. Again, it is the stockholder and stakeholders responsibility to make sure the company is sound, not the government.

      The government's job here is to enforce the corporate charter and collect taxes.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    15. Re:Idiot. by ozeki · · Score: 1

      I thought that Enron was Bush's fault. Did someone change this and not tell everyone?

    16. Re:Idiot. by Just+Another+Poster · · Score: 1
      We did it your way for 10,000 years. Now it's time to try it our way.

      Already been tried. Your "regulated market economy" causes stagnation, and the outright destruction of private property rights in the means of production causes mass-murder.

    17. Re:Idiot. by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Both of you guys are making good points, and we're all in agreement that corporations need to be held more accountable for bad acts done on their behalf.

      It's unlikely that any accountability will take the form of law as long as we've got this jackoff in the White House. Bush isn't much help either.

      The increasing outrage over the scandalous pay packages some of the worst of the CEOs have been getting is only going to increase the anti-corporate sentiment in this country, whether that sentiment is appropriate or not. Guys like Robert Nardelli and the boards that are in collusion with them are increasingly seen as current day robber barons. The company's workers are being told they can't have raises because of the slow economy and then they turn around and pay him 200million just to go away.

      The conflict between those on either side of the economic divide in this nation could heat up fast, just as it did several times back in the 20th.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
  10. Re:The internets by 91degrees · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Why do people focus on this bit of what Ted Stevens said? It's just a metaphor, and as such, about the only part of his whole statement that made sense.

  11. can you edit comments after it has been rated? by waxmop · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    I'm just curious

  12. outside of the US of A... by unfunk · · Score: 1

    ...how does "non-net-neutrality" affect us non-Americans? Does it affect us at all? If so, then any bid to degrade the quality of service of the intertron in return for more money should be definitely shot down.
    Any 'internal' US policy that could drastically affect the lives and businesses of people outside of the USA should not be passed, or even allowed to be considered, because not all of the people it affects can have a say.

    1. Re:outside of the US of A... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Net neutrality would restrict ISP from charging websites for bandwidth to reach consumers. Basically sites like slashdot would have to pay ISPs on both ends in order to work effectively. It would not directly effect Europe, in that your own ISP might still charge in this way even if we pass net neutrality laws. However, making having a popular site twice as expensive or have it load slowly might well stifle creativity or even shut down existing sites as they take unbelievable times to load.

      Many ISPs today (at least where I am) want to provide "live streaming video" over the internet in insane qualities. There just isn't enough bandwidth, so they would charge money to sites or if they didn't pay put a limit on how much bandwidth they'd provide.

      Or at least this is my understanding of it.

    2. Re:outside of the US of A... by WK1 · · Score: 0
      ...how does "non-net-neutrality" affect us non-Americans? Does it affect us at all?

      Yes, it can. Without net neutrality, an ISP might decide to block all overseas merchants. Then your computer shop in Germany (for example) won't get many American customers. Or, they might not block it, but will make it painfully slow unless you pay them money.

      Any 'internal' US policy that could drastically affect the lives and businesses of people outside of the USA should not be passed, or even allowed to be considered

      Are you saying we can't make any laws?

  13. Your energy provider agrees. by Zeek40 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Tell this to your local utilities company,they'll agree wholeheartedly because it's incredibly expensive to lay down the infrastructure to compete. Your electricity bill and water bill will go through the roof without the government smacking them on the hand. These sorts of things are natural monopolies where the cost of competing in the industry outweighs potential benefits to the consumer. There are very few cities in the US that i know of which have multiple cable companies servicing them, do you really want your only option for high speed internet access to have the freedom to determine what services (that they're not providing to you, they're just delivering) you have to pay extra to see?

    1. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by darjen · · Score: 1
      Tell this to your local utilities company,they'll agree wholeheartedly because it's incredibly expensive to lay down the infrastructure to compete. Your electricity bill and water bill will go through the roof without the government smacking them on the hand. These sorts of things are natural monopolies where the cost of competing in the industry outweighs potential benefits to the consumer. There are very few cities in the US that i know of which have multiple cable companies servicing them, do you really want your only option for high speed internet access to have the freedom to determine what services (that they're not providing to you, they're just delivering) you have to pay extra to see?
      The reason there isn't multiple cable companies in most areas is because the government doesn't allow it. Natural monopolies generally don't exist in a free market. And if they do, they damn well better provide excellent service or their market share will suffer. There will always be others waiting for the perfect opportunity to steal customers and take their place.
    2. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have multiple cable providers coming into my apartment. I don't know where you live, but cable is definitely not a natural monopoly. Neither is electricity and power. Just because it's expensive to compete doesn't mean it's impossible to compete.

      Essentially you're saying that the free market won't work because a regulated market doesn't work. That doesn't make any sense.

    3. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Zeek40 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Here is how I see this scenario working out, please show me where you disagree.
      1. Company A is the only utilities provider for the Towns, and is charging exorbitant prices.
      2. Company B sees the opportunity to compete in the market with Company A, and invests billions of dollars in infrastructure necessary to compete as a utilities company, laying lines to the entire town and creating their power plant.
      3. Company A recognizes what company B is doing and lowers its rates in each area that Company B services to sell utilities at a loss, relying on their dominant market position and the capital that they have accrued while being the only shop in town.
      4. Company B tries to compete for customers with Company A, but with the new low rates company A is charging, Company B finds itself short of customers and with angry investors who would like to see a return on their investment this decade breathing down its neck.
      5. Company B files for bankruptcy after it is unable to recoup its massive intitial investment in laying down infrastructure to the town. Unfortunatley, as their assets are liquidated, they find that there are very few people willing to buy a backup power plant and backup power grid for an entire town, and their investors really take it in the shorts.
      6. Company A resumes charging its exorbitant rates.
      7. Repeat as often as there are investors dumb enough to try to get into the market.
      The problem is the massive up front investment in assets that are worth very little outside the market.
    4. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Natural monopolies generally don't exist in a free market.

      I agree! I have my choice of 8 driveways, three sinks, 12 phone numbers, and 4 sets of outlets so that I can take advantage of all the wonders that competition and capitalism can offer.

    5. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      cable is definitely not a natural monopoly.

      You do not know what that term means. "Natural monopoly" is a specific term relating to an industry, not a company, where economies of scale make it impossible for a competitor to successfully compete. Electricity is the easiest example. Larger power plants are cheaper per unit output than smaller ones. So, if I have the lines laid, and I'm charging a reasonable price for the service, no one can compete unless they can take more than 50% of the market. For a competitor to come in planning on building a plant as efficient (so it will have to be the same size) then lay all the wires to all the houses, then charge rates low enough to steal away enough customers is simply impossible. They will lose money. Their only hope of entering the market is to sell at a loss for many years until people switch over, then jack up their rates.

      The average price to serve the consumer with the service is less with one company than many companies, so the market is a natural monopoly. That some incumbant utilities are so incompetent that they allowed some deep-pocket competitors to get a foothold does not invalidate this economic principle.

    6. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Dan+Slotman · · Score: 1

      That's how Rockefeller built Standard Oil. The only difference was that Company A was a national company, and could afford to absorb temporarily local losses. I'm never concerned with net neutrality as it relates to a mom and pop ISP. I'm only concerned when massive companies start throwing their weight around.

    7. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by darjen · · Score: 1
      1. Company A is the only utilities provider for the Towns, and is charging exorbitant prices. 2. Company B sees the opportunity to compete in the market with Company A, and invests billions of dollars in infrastructure necessary to compete as a utilities company, laying lines to the entire town and creating their power plant. 3. Company A recognizes what company B is doing and lowers its rates in each area that Company B services to sell utilities at a loss, relying on their dominant market position and the capital that they have accrued while being the only shop in town. 4. Company B tries to compete for customers with Company A, but with the new low rates company A is charging, Company B finds itself short of customers and with angry investors who would like to see a return on their investment this decade breathing down its neck. 5. Company B files for bankruptcy after it is unable to recoup its massive intitial investment in laying down infrastructure to the town. Unfortunatley, as their assets are liquidated, they find that there are very few people willing to buy a backup power plant and backup power grid for an entire town, and their investors really take it in the shorts. 6. Company A resumes charging its exorbitant rates. 7. Repeat as often as there are investors dumb enough to try to get into the market.

      Historically, the scenario you describe hasn't ever happened. For example, in the case of Standard Oil, the poster child for antitrust laws, oil prices had been falling steadily for a good couple of decades when they were the only game in town. This is when people got upset because they could not compete, due to the constant low prices. So what do they do? Start building up anti trust fervor. By the early 1900s when they were finally successful in getting the government to break up the company, Standard Oil's market share had already been slipping quite a bit. The result is that antitrust laws usually lead to higher prices, not lower prices.

    8. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Then why don't you do your neighbors a favor and try to start your own cable company. You'll see how well the friendly monopoly treats you... :)

      If it were purely tradition there would be SOME town SOMEWHERE that has a couple of utility providers. The fact that this is unheard of indicates that this is likely a natural monopoly.

      About the only areas you see competition with local utilities is stuff like WiFi and satellite-cable. And this is precisely because they get rid of the huge localized investments that make it impossible to compete with utilities. If such a technology existed for broadband I'd be less in favor of net neutrality. I've seen Verizon's idea of premium internet service - I once tried it out on my cell phone. 95% of the WAP sites out there weren't reachable - because they didn't pay to play.

    9. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by darjen · · Score: 1

      Can you show me any specific examples of a free market monopoly that raises and lowers their prices to discorage competition? I would love to see one if you have it.

    10. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Kalriath · · Score: 1

      I've heard tales of Stagecoach (a UK bus company) doing this to eliminate new competitors - unfortunately I can't confirm whether it's true or not.

      It's kind of pointless anyway, since that sort of behaviour in some countries is illegal (around here you'd have our Commerce Commission on your rear end in minutes)

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
    11. Re:Your energy provider agrees. by Caseyscrib · · Score: 1

      Aside from the fact that what you described is anti-competitive behavior (which is illegal in some instances), you are failing to account for the exponentially lower costs of technology over time making it more affordable to enter a competitive market. At the same time the choices of infrastructures available to create a network are expanding. A decade ago broadband became big because it ran over your existing cable and phone lines. It wasn't prohibitively expensive to develop the network, because the wires were already there. Wireless and satellite were slow to make an impact in this country because they had to compete with an infrastructure that was already there. In developing nations however, it would have cost more to build a wired network and therefore wireless is the standard.

      Today, governments are offering wireless broadband access, wireless companies are providing high-speed WiFi, power companies are exploring Ethernet over power lines, and so forth. Investors are looking at these alternative mediums as an inexpensive way to break into the market on an infrastructure that already exists (power lines, wireless, mobile networks, etc...). Cable and DSL companies are scared of all this competition (rightfully so), and their thought is "hey, let's lock our customers into paying extra for premium content." Network neutrality prohibits that, and so they need to find another business model.

      I really don't care that the cable companies are complaining... the internet is a public institution subsidized by taxpayers and if more money is needed the public should pay to expand it.

  14. Indeed... unintended consequences by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    You never know. Enforcing net neutrality may prevent the development of a ubiquitous high bandwidth wireless Internet which can compete with the land lines for performance and cost. When you institute a law like this you are essentially trying to hold development static at the current state of affairs.

    Take for example the massive subsidies that rail gets in the UK, this certainly holds the cost down to about half of the real cost for the small minority who use it, but it also makes it extremely difficult for alternative transportation systems which are potentially superior to compete, even to get venture capital.

    In short, just because you (or a politician) don't know the solution to a problem doesn't mean that someone else hasn't already found a solution and is just dying to put it into practice for you.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:Indeed... unintended consequences by moeinvt · · Score: 1

      I would say that NOT enforcing net neutrality is the thing that will stifle development of new content and services, kill innovation and erect massive barriers to entry. Failure to enact a law like this is going to hold development on that front to its "current state of affairs". Sure, Yahoo! and Google will have new offerings, but the small guy with a great idea is likely screwed. Without net neutrality, you'll make it next to impossible for a startup company offering online services, or someone competing with telecom and cable (like small ISPs or VOIP services) to compete because the big guys will always be able to make THEIR stuff superior.

      Is the growth and success of the Internet primarily due to the creativity and innovation of the telecom and cable companies or is it a result of massive numbers of "end users" developing cool content and services?

    2. Re:Indeed... unintended consequences by ArcheKlaine · · Score: 1

      You never know. Enforcing net neutrality may prevent the development of a ubiquitous high bandwidth wireless Internet which can compete with the land lines for performance and cost. When you institute a law like this you are essentially trying to hold development static at the current state of affairs.

      This could be true only in a case where the 'Enforcing Net Neutrality' you're talking about implies restricting competitors from implementing new ideas. The Net Neutrality that this slashdot article is talking about does not attempt to do that at all. Network Neutrality attempts to stop one action, and that is the throttling of packets that a corporation finds to conflict with their interests.

      Large telecommunications companies have expressed their will to implement this sort of packet-queueing to start offering services in other markets using their already-entrenched market share and widespread influence as a way to draw more customers towards their new services. This Net Neutrality legislation is proposed to keep this from happening, and nothing more.

      As to whether this law "tries to hold development static at the current state of affairs, I believe it serves to encourage just the opposite. Telcos only have to slow things down because there is a limit to what their current infrastructure can hold. The telcos have been given exorbitant amounts of money with the agreement that they will upgrade their networks to meet the needs of a growing market, and they haven't. In this sense, network neutrality's attempts to keep the telcos from throttling tells them directly to upgrade their network so they can handle their proposed new traffic(The telco's own IPTV? Maybe.) instead of trying to milk more cash out of both the aged network infrastructure and the bottlenecks in the network that are still there only because the network hasn't been upgraded to fix them. Am I right? As far as I see, the only thing trying to hold development at the current state of affairs are the telcos, and the current state of affairs boils down to 'You're still using shitty network hardware and lines. You want to keep using them because they give the illusion of resources being much more limited than they actually are.'

      All in all, net neutrality doesn't aim to be the solution to a problem (the problem being the aged network), it aims to be: 1. A response to combat a threat to one of the foundations of the internet. 2: Another push to get the telcos to do what they agreed to doing when they took government subsidies intended for upgrading and maintaining a high speed information network.
  15. Libertarian stance? by august+sun · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Dear /.

    I have a confession to make, I haven't been following the net neutrality issue closely at all. The extent of my understanding is that its proponents are calling for federal legislation ensuring that the private companies who do some infrastrutural magic to make the net possible, aren't allowed to discriminate or otherwise let business decisions apply to how they treat network traffic.

    As I see it, this should give rise to a philosophical point of contention:

    Namely, how do you reconcile libertarian free-market capitalism with legislation that at the end of the day will still be restricting the free-market actions of private companies.

    To distill the point, let's put it this way:

    /.ers tend to have strong libertarian leanings. /.ers are also vehemently and overwhelmingly in favor of Net Neutrality, which anyway you slice it still amounts to federal regulation of a free market.

    Any good answers to this? I promise there will be many +informatives/+insightfuls in it for you...

    1. Re:Libertarian stance? by yesthatmcgurk · · Score: 0, Troll

      Simple. Most of the supposed libertarians here are actually stinky hippies with unix beards and Che t-shirts.

    2. Re:Libertarian stance? by Thansal · · Score: 1

      For the msot part you are right. /.ers tend to lean in favor of libertarian views. However, we (like every one else) are hypocrits, and when something will come along and specificly bite us, we want some protection from it.

      Now, there is an actual argument for legislation that is pro-net nutraity, and does not clash (that much with our libertarian ways).

      Most (if not all) of the infrastructre that supports the internet (all those miles of copper and fiber), was heavily subsidized (if not outright payed for) by the govn't (and thus us), and then handed over to the Telecos, to do with as they see fit.

      So no, it does not fit into the libertarian view point, however it is the most probable soloution (realy just a patch) to a bad situation.

      --
      Do Or Do Not, There Is No Spoon, There Is Only Zuul. Everything in the above post is probably opinion.
    3. Re:Libertarian stance? by cowscows · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Listen, the USA is not an entirely libertarian free-market, nor should it be. A completely free market is not a good idea in theory, nor would it be in practice.

      The cable companies/phone companies/etc. are not currently existing in a free market. All corporate utility providers are subject to lots of government rules, and for good reasons. Many of those reasons are purely practical. Running utility lines requires a lot of wires and pipes and whatnot to be strung through our cities, or under the ground, through many different pieces of public and private property. Not setting some regulations for how all of that work would create huge logistic, safety, and performance problems. I wouldn't want six different power companies all stringing lines through my neighborhood, even if it did bring prices down some.

      So why would any businessman want to get involved in this? Because when a company agreed to provide utility services under those restrictions, they were usually given a monopoly in that market, without all the work of crushing their competitors.

      Technology, forever moving forwards, has led to some interesting circumstances, where digital technology is allowing some of those formally separate utilities to start to dabble in each others' markets. It's all turning to 1's and 0's, and our computers don't really care how that information gets into our house. Even the power companies are exploring bringing data to us over their lines. Add in the development of wireless, and all of a sudden these long-time monopolies are experiencing competition.

      There are plenty of examples of how monopolies tend to act in response to competition. They often involve using their current power to exert influence on other companies, and force unfair deals. These deals are seldom beneficial for the consumer. The Net Neutrality movement is an attempt to head off one kind of these dealings before they become a problem.

      To distill the point, let's put it this way:

      The government gave many of these companies their monopoly position. And now the government is trying to keep them from using that monopoly position to unfairly limit competition and new technologies.

      I guess a 100% free market argument would be that their never should've been any regulations on these utilities in the past. I don't think the argument for that is particularly strong, but even if you could, it doesn't change what has already happened, and getting rid of all regulation and pretending like it never happened is not a good solution.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

    4. Re:Libertarian stance? by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Libertarian theory is that government is bad because it's violent and because you can't take your business to another government.

      Telecom companies haven't been out there committing genocide, but they are often monopolies and duopolies. They have power that the market doesn't control. They're in a position to limit other people's freedom and have announced plans to do so. Minarchist libertarians, as opposed to anarcho-capitalists, see a role for government in fighting other enemies of freedom.

      Libertarians, by and large, also see a role for government in policing fraud. Verizon has said that Google is getting a "free lunch" on bandwidth. Lies poison a free market.

    5. Re:Libertarian stance? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a difference, even if subtle one, between adding value (higher speed) for a cost, and restricting access unless a toll is paid.

      In California, we have a couple of toll roads, and a bunch of free ones. Most people choose the free ones and most of the time it works well enough that most people choose the freeways. However during periods of high congestion some people, who have extra cash, can route around the traffic and go through the toll roads.

      I don't have a problem with this.

      However, if the fictional freeway company were to suddenly change the way the freeways work, so that only one lane was available UNLESS people paid the toll, or worse, only those with BMWs could use that free of charge, and everyone else had to pay the toll, well then that is a big problem, since we all paid for the roads (through taxes).

      In otherwords, I pay ATT for my DSL, I expect full speed access on their network. I Pay for the highway with my monthly fee. Using the highway metaphor (yes, metaphors are broken) it is like the city of San Diego charging extra for people to use their off ramps, for "content providers" charging extra for their content.

      I say, let them charge for their content, and put up toll booths on the offramps (Yahoo, etc). Don't expect me or the Highway company (ATT) to want to get off in your city. I don't want to pay extra for getting off in San Diego every month, because I happen to live in Nor Cal, and hardly ever go there.

      Net Neutrality is like this fictional/metaphorical highway. I really don't see a need for the government to get involved, one way or another. Let Yahoo try to extort from me, and see if I use Yahoo ever again. However if Yahoo and ATT can assure great content as part of the package (dedicated road for ATT customers), then fine. If they charge too much, I'll just move. I do have other alternatives.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    6. Re:Libertarian stance? by BadMrMojo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      /.ers tend to have strong libertarian leanings. /.ers are also vehemently and overwhelmingly in favor of Net Neutrality, which anyway you slice it still amounts to federal regulation of a free market.

      Ok, I'll bite. You are correct in that this is pretty blatantly hypocritical.

      I can't speak for anyone other than myself (obviously) but on this particular issue, I've weighed the possibilities as I understand them and I feel that governmental regulation is - for better or worse - more likely to produce a desirable outcome than corporate interest. For the sake of results, I'm willing to swallow my pride and endorse an option which is very clearly against my general leanings.

      Similarly, I won't vote for candidates purely along party lines but on individual merits instead. Everyone has to decide for themselves whether that constitutes hypocrisy or wisdom.

      Personally, I'd rather deal with the consequences of compromise than those of zealotry.

    7. Re:Libertarian stance? by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is one concept that you are missing in your analysis, and that is "natural monopoly". Unless we want fifteen different wires coming into people's homes, the telcos, power companies, and cable companies will have a natural monopoly on service to your home. Somebody owns those wires running across the sidewalks. We can't just quadruple the amount of phone poles overnight. If you are unhappy with your phone company, you can't just have another company drive their van to your house trailing copper wire behind them. There is just one phone wire coming into your house.

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    8. Re:Libertarian stance? by swillden · · Score: 1

      Namely, how do you reconcile libertarian free-market capitalism with legislation that at the end of the day will still be restricting the free-market actions of private companies.

      If the market allowed for a real free market in Internet service, it wouldn't matter. People would prefer the ISP that gives them fast access to all of the content they want, rather than just the content providers who pay up. Or perhaps we'd end up with a choice between slightly cheaper Internet service that is partially content provider-supported, or more expensive service that is neutral. Letting the consumer choose between the options would be very much in harmony with Libertarian principles, and would also allow me to have the kind of connection I want. But the reality is that both natural and government-granted monopolies restrict the set if broadband providers that are available to me.

      Given the restriction of the free market choices of consumers, it makes sense to apply government restrictions on the ISP to ensure that all of the consumer's (limited) options are reasonably good ones.

      Personally, I think the whole net neutrality thing is very simple: Carriers who discriminate between one kind of traffic and another should lose their status as "common carriers", making them liable for any damages caused by the data they transmit.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    9. Re:Libertarian stance? by rkhalloran · · Score: 1

      The problem is that the bandwidth providers have effective monopoly status within their respective service areas, at the same time they are marketing their own content to their customer base. They are looking for additional revenue from other content providers for access to those customers, and all but threatening to choke access if they don't play along. The analogy would be SBC-Prime aka AT&T going to Verizon, Quest, T-Mobile, Sprint, etc. and telling them there will be additional fees to call into the areas they service.

      This simply escalates into a tariff war among the carriers and results in pass-along costs to we the consumers. Our bills go up, access is restricted, and because of the effective monopoly status, no realistic alternative providers.

    10. Re:Libertarian stance? by aarku · · Score: 1

      Looking past your political generalization... Telecommunications are public utilities that tend to be natural monopolies and therefore fall into a regulated sector.

    11. Re:Libertarian stance? by MobyDisk · · Score: 1

      I had to struggle with that myself. I've found several ways:

      1) Telephone service and Internet service are not free markets, so the free market rules do not apply.
      In the Libertarian philosphy, you would not need this regulation because, if the consumer prefers Network Neutrality, then they would pick an ISP who offers it. The problem is that consumers don't have that choice. #1: Most areas only allow for 1 or 2 ISPs. #2: A given packet may travel throug a dozen different networks. I can choose who I subscribe to, but not what all the other hops on the internet are. So in the end, consumer's don't have a choice.

      2) Even free markets require rules.
      Capitalism only works if all competitors play fairly. That's why we have truth in advertising laws, labeling requirements on food, antitrust laws to stop cartels, etc. The consumer cannot make a fair choice if they are given misinformation. A non-neutral internet would allow ISPs to engage in a sort of cartel where they could delay or modify data that they didn't like. The free market won't work without network neutrality.

      Imagine if Comcast partnered with Barnes And Noble so that Amazon.com packets were delayed and Barnes and Noble packets were routed first. Consumers might switch to the "faster" site and thus make a decision that didn't reflect their true free market decision.

      3) Freedom of speech
      Since ISPs are corporations, it could cause a "chilling effect" if they were permitted to censor (or at least delay) information they didn't like. Maybe liberalblogs.org would be slower than republicansrock.net in some areas of the country. That's very dangerous.

    12. Re:Libertarian stance? by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Namely, how do you reconcile libertarian free-market capitalism with legislation that at the end of the day will still be restricting the free-market actions of private companies.

      A "free market" will result in a monopoly in many circumstances. Then, the monopoly abuses its standing to maximize profits with non-competitive pricing (which can be done because with a monopoly, there is not competition). These abuses have been repeated throughout the history of the US and the world. When one or two companies control all access choices for a consumer, then they control all access of other companies to that consumer. The people against net neutrality want to abuse their monopoly to extort access charges for all people wanting access to that consumer.

      Net neutrality is nothing other than an update of anti-trust regulations to prepare for future possible abuses. The question boils down to: "Can you be a libertarian free-market person, but yet support legislation against monopolistic abuses?" I believe the answer to be yes. But that is a matter of opinion. I see the free market as one where the consumers are the ones that are "free" not one where the companies band together in monopolies or oligopolies and are "free" to eliminate competition and abuse the consumers.

    13. Re:Libertarian stance? by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Simple, because the government paid a large percent of the share of the cost of the infrastructure, the telecoms didn't really own it until the telecommunications bill in the late 90s let the telecoms have free reign of the system with a promise they would use that to built the network of the future by 2000. Well they lied, no surprise there. But in effect the government needs to take back control of what it gave away to private industry that what the taxpayers mainly paid for in the first place. Sure in general governments giving then taking it back isn't good, but imagine if they governments had done the same to the roads or other common use property and the companies that got them ignored the initial use agreements for them.

    14. Re:Libertarian stance? by breeze95 · · Score: 1

      Neutrality is like this fictional/metaphorical highway. I really don't see a need for the government to get involved, one way or another. Let Yahoo try to extort from me, and see if I use Yahoo ever again. However if Yahoo and ATT can assure great content as part of the package (dedicated road for ATT customers), then fine. If they charge too much, I'll just move. I do have other alternatives.



      I am not sure that you get the point. The idea behind net neutrality is that it will prevent AT&T from putting a toll booth between their customers and Yahoo website. It will prevent AT&T from down grading Yahoo connection to AT&T customers, because AT&T is offering a competitive service, or Yahoo didn't agree to pay AT&T. It will prevent cable broadband providers from down grading VOIP services from competitors. I can go on and on. In short, net neutrality is good for the consumer.
    15. Re:Libertarian stance? by modeless · · Score: 1

      *applause*

      Where can I vote for you for Congress?

    16. Re:Libertarian stance? by Actual+Reality · · Score: 0

      I guess the key question here is: In what way are the internet backbone providers obligated to provide free access to any other computer on the internet? Internet service is a commodity. They have to put in the infrastructure to make it happen. This costs money. Why is it unfair for them to recoup these costs? I admit I will not like it if my internet priority gets bumped down so that someone elses can get bumped up, but I can also see that the telecom companies have a right to profit from the commodity that they sell. Now there is a possibilty that the government subsidizes the internet backbones. I don't know if that is the case or not, but if they are going to put the clamps on what a company can do with its commodity, then they should do something to offset the financial damages that will result from this type of legilation. I am not into government subsidies, but I am also against the government saying that a company MUST give away its commodity for free. ~AR

    17. Re:Libertarian stance? by cowscows · · Score: 1

      Send me 20 million dollars to fund my campaign, and if I have any cash left after a 6 year vacation, I'll see about filling out whatever paperwork is necessary to run for office.

      --

      One time I threw a brick at a duck.

  16. Re:The internets by xantho · · Score: 1

    And actually, the internet is a series of tubes, in the sense that a tube is a conduit through which things travel. It's just that the tubes are really huge right now. So you could make a case that the internet is a series of huge tubes that you use by putting your data in big trucks and sending them down the gigantic tubes.

    Think, Die Hard: With a Vengeange.

  17. Where is the problem? by MikeRT · · Score: 0

    Why should anyone be entitled to all you can consume bandwidth for a miniscule amount each month? We aren't getting that with electricity, and I think most people here would go ballistic if there were a serious effort to allow anyone to buy unlimited electricity for $40/month. The abuse alone would make the electrical grid unstable to say the least.

    You're asking Congress to start directly regulating technical policy with how the Internet works. Once they act, they very rarely do anything to fix their mistakes. You get it wrong now, it'll permanently fuck the American section of the Internet. Stick a fork in it, it'll be done because Congress will at best make another vague, ham-handed attempt to address a technical problem most of them couldn't ever understand.

    This is why I can't stand the pre-emptive regulatory arguments. There are other alternatives, such as putting pressure on ISPs that arbitrarily block access. Get a bunch of popular websites to block all of their customers. Get Google and MSN to display blacked out pages to their users. Shut off MySpace, block all outgoing email and IM protocol ports from them. Basically go two steps away from being a brownshirt on them in the private sphere until they knock it off.

    This is the same Congress that puts people on anti-terror committees who think that Shiite is probably a misspelling of shit. Do you really trust them to care enough to get it right?

    1. Re:Where is the problem? by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      "Why should anyone be entitled to all you can consume bandwidth for a miniscule amount each month?"

      Because that is what I am being sold, and what I am paying for.

      The old days of restricted bandwidth didn't work. 5MB downloads per month or whatever proved to be worthless for most people. You obviously weren't around during the dark early days, when dialup was 28.8kbs, T1s were expensive, and the internet was a few web pages and email, and one could surf the most interesting parts of the internet in a few hours.

      Then came the DOT.COM boom and everything exploded, dialup went to 56k, and it wasn't enough. People started bonding ISDN lines to get 128 and partial T1s to get faster links.

      Now, T1s aren't enough for most places, and DS3s and other HighSpeed connections are common. My DSL at home is faster than the T1s I had as an early ISP.

      There is a saying you should learn. "It is better to be thought of as a fool, than open your mouth and remove all doubt".

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    2. Re:Where is the problem? by rkhalloran · · Score: 1

      >>Why should anyone be entitled to all you can consume bandwidth for a miniscule amount each month?

      Because that's what I'm *paying* for? The telcos are already offering all-you-can-call plans for a modest amount.

      The issue is less the bandwidth I'm paying for, but the bandwidth providers trying to squeeze the content providers (many of whom they're competing with anyway) for fees to access their customers. It's like the cell companies of those people you call trying to charge you for that right vs. the current model of the carriers passing the traffic among themselves and basically assuming it all balances out.

    3. Re:Where is the problem? by spectro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Your electricity bill analogy actually doesn't work. In this case it is power GENERATORS that CHARGE YOU for electricity usage, they are like the content providers that charge a subscription to give you access. ISPs would be like the power TRANSMISION companies, and we pay a flat montly fee for that service (at least here in deregulated Texas)

      --
      HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
    4. Re:Where is the problem? by vertinox · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're asking Congress to start directly regulating technical policy with how the Internet works.

      Ummm..... Technically they have since it started.

      Does DARPA ring a bell?

      And all Telco's and Cable Co's have been FCC regulated since day one. And if you have ever worked an ISP you'll know there is plenty of regulation on how DSL, Central Offices (the phone company ones), and DSLAMs work.

      The only reason you can get Speak Easy and Earthlink DSL is because of current government regulation that forces telco's to let 3rd party ISPs use their CO's for their rack equipment.

      In this instance government regulation prevents over powerful already government sponsored monopolies. You remember the telco's got all that tax money in the 90's to build infrastructure?

      Well if we let the telco's go hogwild then the ISPs might as well be owned directly by the government... one that wants to charge whatever they want without.

      Normally I am a libertarian, but we are far too into this to let these companies run crazy without over sight.

      --
      "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
      -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
    5. Re:Where is the problem? by Qzukk · · Score: 1

      Why should anyone be entitled to all you can consume bandwidth for a miniscule amount each month?

      Because that was what they sold me? Because they stated in their contract that they would make a "best effort" attempt to carry traffic between the internet and my computer? I wonder at what point people decided that contracts were worthless and free to break at any time. I doubt that I'd receive any redress should I attempt to take AT&T to court over breach of that contract, they'd just claim it was retroactively terminated with no recourse. If I'm lucky I might get a refund for the remainder of that month's service.

      I'm all for not having the government fuck shit up, but let's not pretend that the companies involved have lily-white hands.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    6. Re:Where is the problem? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why should anyone be entitled to all you can consume bandwidth for a miniscule amount each month?

      Because I pay for it. If they aren't making money off it, they should change how they charge me, not make some backroom deal with some other company. I'm the one consuming the bandwidth. I'm the one requesting it from Google or wherever. So I should pay for my access, just like Google does. What "they" want is to still charge me $1 per month for "Internet access" so that no one else can come in with BBPL, wireless, cable modems, etc. and make money from it. They want to crush the competition with their monopoly status and low fees to the consumer, but then charge Google $1,000,000,000 to access their network at anything other than crippled speeds.

      No one is complaining about the prices or speeds of their connection. The complaint is about back room deals that are designed to be anti-competitive and hurt the consumer by abusing monopoly status.

  18. I really don't understand by WhatHeSiad · · Score: 1

    If I pay for my 8Mb/256k ADSL line and connect to a sever thats pays for its xxx/xxx connection, wouldn't any interference be a Denial Of Service attack?? I really don't understand it. One of my customers uses AOL for it's ISP, yet they have to pay a surcharge to email receipts to AOL customers, most others ISP's don't add surcharge business emails. They also have problems receiving emails from some other business (excluding spam that still floods thier inbox). If you pay per GB at each change of service provider, why can't you use it?

    1. Re:I really don't understand by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Right. You don't understand.

      What the ISPs are selling you is not 100% dedicated 8Mb/256k ADSL. They are selling you perhaps 5% usage of that bandwidth, maybe less. It's called "bursting" and it enables them to sell a great number of customers something and most of them will never even reach the 5% utilization mark. At least is was that way in 2002.

      Along comes content. Downloadable (legal) movies. Music. Streaming video. YouTube. And so on and so forth. This pretty much has pushed the utilization for some users way past the 5% mark, or whatever they were actually selling.

      So, there are relatively few choices. They can have angry customers that aren't getting the service they think they should have - like you. Or, they can upgrade the entire physical plant to accomodate 20x the level of service they were capable of providing. Only that costs money. They can charge their customers 10x their current bill, which will put the home user on the same billing level as they charge business customers today, or they can find some other way to pay for it.

      Government subsidy is probably out of the question. It isn't a priority and nobody understands.

      So, they can charge the folks with billions of dollars to spend. This sounds a lot better to the consumer because they aren't seeing the bill. But the ad-supported businesses aren't in favor of that idea. They want the relatively free ride they have now to continue. And they want millions of ad-readers to continue reading the ads they are showing.

      Yes, we can have laws that keep the ISPs from charging for access to consumers and ad-readers. But the result will be in the end we are all paying lots more directly to the ISP. Of course, we're going to end up paying more for goods and services because the ads cost more anyway, so it may not matter in the end. But it is going to feel a lot nicer to people to have a $25 ISP bill rather than a $100-150 ISP bill.

    2. Re:I really don't understand by WhatHeSiad · · Score: 1

      Ok I think I get it, the ISP dosn't want to put up the price of its service and appear unpopular so what it wants is money from say Youtube (who has already paid for the bandwidth at thier end) to subsidise their customers usage. Its a bit like when you buy a car with a 6 litre engine, the car dealership gets a fuel subsidy from the car manufacture and passes it to me so it cost no more than a 3 litre engine.

    3. Re:I really don't understand by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 1

      Actually the ad-supported businesses aren't getting a free ride. They're paying for their Internet connection and their bandwidth usage just like consumers are, and paying through the nose. What they want is to only have to pay their ISP for their Internet connection and bandwidth usage. What the telcos want is the right to charge businesses a second time for the bandwidth, so the business has to pay their own ISP for the bandwidth and then pay the user's ISP (who the business has no contact with at all) for the same bandwidth.

      And it isn't even the case that the user's ISP isn't getting paid. When the user's ISP connected to the business's ISP's network, directly or indirectly, one of the things that was negotiated was peering: how much the two ISPs will pay each other for handling the other one's traffic. If the telcos negotiated bad peering arrangements, well that's between them and their peers. The business and the users shouldn't be involved in that.

    4. Re:I really don't understand by mdozturk · · Score: 1

      Actually both sides need each other: ISPs wouldn't have any customers if content providers didn't exist. Companies like comcast lie about the services they provide "up to xxx amount", like you said, their customers are using more of what is promised to them. I cannot see what is wrong with that.

      The ISPs have an unfair advantage on their side. Say comcast starts charging for "throttling" packets from content providers. Say google gets pissed off at this and stops serving comcasts IP block. I have two choices: either I use something other than google or I switch ISPs. Switching ISPs is impossible (or at least hard) in most areas so I will have to stop using google.

      If net neutrality is removed ISPs can charge content providers obscene amount of money...

    5. Re:I really don't understand by WK1 · · Score: 0

      Yes, ISPs are promising loads of bandwidth, and are unable to provide that bandwidth, for whatever reason. Like you said, they could charge more, so they could increase their bandwidth capabilities, or they can double-dip to buy more bandwidth. You left out the obvious solution. Promise less bandwidth. I like bandwidth as much as the next guy, but if you can only deliver so much, only promise that much. I'll understand.

      The truth is, though, that ISPs see double-dipping as a huge, new profit source. That is why they are starting to do that.

  19. It isn't just about cheaper, it's about better. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    A couple of points.

    1: If you spend less on cheaper goods, you have more to spend on other things, like family, friends, education, charities, whatever.

    2: Things tend to get better, not just cheaper. I can call my girlfriend pretty much any time, anywhere in the world and instantly get hold of her on a mobile phone, I can see my niece on a video phone because I choose to pay for the things which matter to me, not to you.

    --
    Deleted
  20. embolden by Conspiracy_Of_Doves · · Score: 1

    How the hell did 'plutoed' beat out 'embolden' for word of the year?

  21. The real problem: ISP blocking of ports by volkris · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think this Network Neutrality debate is a bit misfocused. If we want to ensure the ability of people to speak their minds on the Internet we would do better to attack the near-universal practice of ISPs blocking ports and restricting the use of home servers.

    THAT is where the free speech comes from: the people. The NN debate seems to be rather focused on the ability to choose between large companies that want to profit through our expression. Even though there may be more options it still represents a consolidation of content. If we want information we must get it from these providers; the only way for individuals to express themselves is to partner with some provider.

    It doesn't have to be this way. If ISPs would let us use even our measly aDSL uplinks (that we pay for) to legally serve our own content people would be able to self publish. Software would be created to deal with the technical challenges that would arise, perhaps with legitimate P2P providing interesting solutions to some of these problems. In any case, that small change in policy has the potential to really change the way people view and use the Internet.

    Network Neutrality proponents love to talk about a level playing field... lets level the playing field between the consumers and the providers as a whole.

    1. Re:The real problem: ISP blocking of ports by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With AT&T, you can get a 5-static IP ADSL package for $50 a month, that has no port blocking. The normal cost for DSL in my area is $19 from them, so I don't see this as being prohibitively expensive for the few who would like to have a server or two. If you're running servers, you're more likely to be using an increased amount of bandwidth in comparison to the majority of users who just surf. Therefore, I think it is logical that people who don't have the intention of running servers should be able to buy a lesser connection with port blocking.

    2. Re:The real problem: ISP blocking of ports by volkris · · Score: 1

      In my areas it's around twice to three times as expensive with far lower connection speeds AND they still don't always unblock the ports.

      See here for an account of one business trying to get unblocked internet.

  22. As I see it.. by LongTimeReader · · Score: 1

    The Telcos are supposed to be a transport service. They are not supposed to care what is being transported (as such federal law forgives any illegal use by users). Now because they see all this money flowing and only a portion entering their coffers they are trying to put a dam to redirect the flow. Both content providers and surfers PAY for access to the internet already. What telecoms are trying to do is hold providers hostage for ransom. Thier claim is they need to have someone else pay for the imporvements they should have been performing the last 20 years. Most Internet services I have used DO NOT provide the stated bandwidth I pay for all the time, I can reach it now and then but not very often. We all are overpaying for substandard service. If ebay (or what ever sites you use) has to pay more for internet access then so do the rest of use because it's a service we use and they get all thier money from us. I don't like the idea of government regulation getting in the mix either but they already are when dealing with the telcos so there you have it.

    --
    If closed the mind be, so then the mouth should follow.
  23. Insightful? WTF! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Corporate fraud, on the other hand, comes from corporations.

  24. In a related story... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Toddlers to debate particle physics.

    Surely this will end well...

    Gulp.

  25. Free market capitalism by electrosoccertux · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not sure why but everyone on /. seems to think libertarian must be 100% free market. The libertarian view is that government should get only get involved when the free market cannot regulate itself. Last I checked, the telecoms aren't interested in playing fair. This means we need the government to get involved.

    The public highway system is most definitely better than not.
    The USPS is fine for most peoples' needs.
    Corporations can't fund an army.

    The above government controlled systems are working pretty well. There's nothing wrong with the government legislating fair play. We need net neutrality.

    1. Re:Free market capitalism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It was government that created the problems in the first place. There used to be proper competition in the past until the government granted monopolies came about. It seems a bit silly to go down the same road again, although I understand not knowing the path the market would take, is daunting. Trusting the government here is like trusting the telecoms, I would not trust either, but at least with the telecoms I have more of a chance of changing. Changing government is more difficult.

      If the telecoms did do something stupid, like blocking or slowing down a site, there would be backlash and public annoyance. If they are simply putting other traffic on different lines, who really cares? If I wanted to pay extra for a premium services and the telecoms wanted to provide it, isn't that their and my business? It doesn't hurt anyone.

  26. It's Really Simple by sycodon · · Score: 1

    You don't have to make anyone into a boogieman and you don't have to prevent providers from offering premium services. You just need to make sure that people get the bandwidth they pay for.

    If a content provider pays for the bandwidth to serve 10,000 people downloading at 500kb each, then 10,000 people should be able to download at that rate (assuming they have paid for a 500kb connection).

    It is the responsibility of the provider to ensure that they have fat enough pipes to meet their obligations. If they want to create and sell fatter pipes on top of that, then they should be free to do so, as long as they can meet thir current obligations.

    --
    When Fascism comes to America, it will call itself Anti-Fascism, and tell you to give up your guns.
  27. Congress Solves the Problem! by Snowgen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Wow, first Congress solved the spam problem, and now they're going to address net neutrality!

    Why don't I feel comforted?

  28. Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called facts by Itchyeyes · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, the middle class emerged during the middle ages as the bourgeoisie, which consisted primarily of merchants. The rise of the middle class over the last century or so has been primarily due to industrialization and mechanization, which has shifted more workers from away from production type labor and into mercantile and technical fields.

    You're assertion that the whole of human history, up to recent times, has been the history of the free market is entirely false. For example, in feudal Europe and Japan you needed a lot more than a shop to be a shop keeper. You needed to be a member of a certain land-owning class, something a great deal more difficult to obtain than a business license. And where exactly would you say that slaves fit into the free market?

    You also claim that Socialism and regulated economy are inventions of the past 100 years. However, Marx wrote The Communist Manifesto in 1848.

    Your entire statement is nothing more than supposition and conjecture, interlaced with flat out falsehoods. The free market is far from perfect. There are plenty of areas where regulation is needed to ensure things operate smoothly (economists refer to these as externalities). However, you completely fail to understand the respective benefits and shortcomings of the free market and socialism, not to mention basic history.

  29. Doesn't Congress understand? by deadhammer · · Score: 1
    This is madness! The Internet is not something you just dump something on. It's not a big truck. It's a series of tubes. And if you don't understand those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material.

    Congress, don't clog the Intertubes!

    --
    I'll be honest, we're throwing science against the wall to see what sticks. -Cave Johnson
  30. Baka by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > loopholes don't exist in a free market

    Sure they do. Collusion, form monopoly, remove 'free' from 'free market' and because you're a private company with apparently no accountability to the public ("how dare you pass laws restricting us!"), no one can stop you thanks to your monopoly power restricting the market.

    Now, you may say that that's a cheat because they work by removing the free market, but it's why you can't avoid having ANY regulation of the market--the companies will find it in their best interests to set up their own de facto regulation and won't be accountable to anyone.

  31. Natural Monopolies do exist by alexhmit01 · · Score: 1

    Okay, economic theory...

    Producing products (or services) by a firm have two basic costs, the fixed cost, and the variable costs. The fixed costs are costs that are generally fixed over the "short term" (i.e. you can sell the factory in the long term, but in the short-term, you have to pay your property taxes). Variable costs are the costs of producing the units, and we generally look at "average variable costs," i.e. if we spend 1000 on making the units, and produced 100 units, the AVC is 10. Marginal costs are the cost of producing the last unit.

    We assume that marginal costs are increasing at the interesting point of the market. i.e. when I start a farm, the first plot of land that I farm is the most productive, then I start farming less valuable land. Similarly, the early oil fields produced a lot of cheap oil, modern oil exploration is expensively looking for smaller and smaller amounts of oil. While their are increasing returns to scale initially (spreading out the fixed costs over more and more units, so average fixed costs come down), we assume that as you start pushing harder and harder to produce more (paying a premium to buy parts on the spot market, paying overtime to run a second and third shift, etc.), costs come up, and eventually we get decreasing returns to scale.

    Now, we can graph the "average cost per unit" as a declining curve (increasing returns to scale) until a minimum point, then an increasing curve as the increase in marginal costs over time. For non-physical products, remember the dot-com boom, less and less qualified employees were getting hired, and salaries were going up, meaning the cost/output of these people was going up...

    Now, we can plot that cost curve as the "supply curve of the firm," and collectively with its competitors as the "supply curve of the market". If we plot that against the demand curve, we can see where the intersection lies. If the firm's decreasing costs area intersects the demand curve, then one single firm will have lower costs than two firms competing will. This is called a natural monopoly. If one firm can produce at 10, but two firms producing at that level makes costs 15, then in the "free market" costs should drop to 14, and one of the firms exits the market.

    Now the problem is, introducing competition to this marketplace increases costs and therefore dead weight loss, but leaving the company with the monopoly will cause them to seek monopoly rents. These are markets that tend to be regulated.

    The problem is, most markets that we are interested in today are not static. AT&T had a natural monopoly, but technology changes (satellites, microwaves, etc.) created the cellular phone, alternative means of long distance than stringing wires between cities, etc., making it no longer a natural monopoly.

    With cable companies, there is room for competition in limited areas. The franchise agreements normally require universal wiring. If you notice cities letting competition in, they aren't wiring areas for the poor, they are poaching customers from the wealthy areas that buy premium packages and data services. This works because the incumbent monopolist has to maintain universal services, and the competitor is able to compete in isolated submarkets. If the monopolist competed with the competitor, they would lose their excess profits in the rest of the region, so they lose some market instead.

    There are natural monopolies, but it is questionable that in terms of technology monopolies, should you accept them and regulate them (the generally accepted approach to older industries), or leave the monopolies, expecting monopoly profits to bring in competition. Given the pace of technology change, it may be more reasonable to accept premium pricing in the short-term to get competition in the long term.

    The Telecom Act of 1996 promised to bring in a bold new era of competition by deregulating the companies, but from 1997 - 1999 people just howled at the exploding costs of cable television. However, a

    1. Re:Natural Monopolies do exist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Someone's in the middle of the Microeconomics 101 course...

  32. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

    I feel dirty making this joke but wth.

    "And where exactly would you say that slaves fit into the free market?"

    In the produce section?

  33. Re:Progressive Libertarianism by vertinox · · Score: 1

    Here is what I forgot to say or summarize in my previous post:

    Government Regulation that promotes monopolies is bad.
    Government Regulation that promotes competition is good.

    That is what real libertarianism is about. Government is a necessary evil (and I emphasize the evil part) but we need it so that non-government monopolies and despots do not enforce a will of their own the people and prevent free trade.

    --
    "I am the king of the Romans, and am superior to rules of grammar!"
    -Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor (1368-1437)
  34. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

    No, I'm just "wrong" because you don't agree. That is a common slashdot technique.

    First, Socialism was not embraced as a form of government the same year that Marx published his theory. Second, Even if it happened that same year, it is 150 years. I'm OK with rounding. Especially when we're working on a timeline of many thousands of years. The pedantry you illustrated in that criticism is like a neon sign flashing "Don't listen to me. I'm just a useless dolt." (Hey, I didn't say it. The neon sign did).

    Third, in the feudal times you mention you weren't a proper citizen unless you were part of the "land owning class" or nobility. So that is a given. A free market in a country only applies to that countries citizens, no? If you could implement free markets in America, would you let just any foreign citizen walk off the boat and open up a Jamba Juice franchise?

    Fouth, despite my tasteless joke in the previous post, slaves were a _product_ in the free market. And in fact they illustrate it nicely. You could buy, sell, or trade a slave whenever you want. That paints a vivid picture about exactly how unregulated that market was.

    In summary, your entire statement is nothing more that supposition and conjecture, interlaced with flat out assholeness. The regulated market is far from perfect. There are plenty of areas where regulation should be eased to ensure things operate smoothly. However, you completely fail to understand the respective benefits and shortcomings of the regulated market and capitalism, not to mention basic history.

  35. Corporate accounting practices by Dan+Slotman · · Score: 1

    You are only half right. Corporations do their taxes exactly like you or I do them. They try to pay as little as possible. Now, just as there are loopholes for individuals, there are even more loopholes for corporations. Bad accounting is enabled by voluminous tax code filled with special cases and exceptions. It is remarkable to see the wild difference between what any Fortune 500 company reports on its taxes and what it reports to Wall Street.

  36. Libertarian? what for? by Cigarra · · Score: 1
    I'd like to mod the parent up, but I'm sure somebody else will ;-) So, just in case it takes long, I'll quote:


    There is one concept that you are missing in your analysis, and that is "natural monopoly". Unless we want fifteen different wires coming into people's homes, the telcos, power companies, and cable companies will have a natural monopoly on service to your home.

    That's the point: just like in LLU, sometimes you want to regulate one thing (A), in order to create conditions for some other thing (B) to "explode", because you consider that an increase of B results in benefits for more people; i.e., it's worth the sin of regulating.
    The thing is: what do we need the DOGMA for? Libertarianism, although sounds nice, don't make you rich, right? It's always sane to balance the pros and cons of every choice, instead of choose "don't regulate because regulation is evil" by default.

    --
    I don't have a sig.
  37. hysterical hyperbole by Colin+Smith · · Score: 1

    Sure, Yahoo! and Google will have new offerings, but the small guy with a great idea is likely screwed. Without net neutrality, you'll make it next to impossible for a startup company offering online services, or someone competing with telecom and cable (like small ISPs or VOIP services) to compete because the big guys will always be able to make THEIR stuff superior. This is simply hysterical hyperbole. If people find that their network connection is slow they'll switch providers.

    --
    Deleted
    1. Re:hysterical hyperbole by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

      And what happens if the number of local providers can be counted on one hand? Or worse, what if all the local providers can be counted on one finger?
      What happens to people who want high-speed broadband, but live in areas where the government has to provide subsides to insure simple phone service?

      --
      There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  38. Yep. It is now officially the fault of Jeffrey Skilling, Andy Fastow, the Arthur Anderson accounting firm, and a British bank called NatWest.

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  39. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by mjtaylor24601 · · Score: 1

    "First, Socialism was not embraced as a form of government the same year that Marx published his theory. Second, Even if it happened that same year, it is 150 years. I'm OK with rounding."

    That's funny because I was under the impression that socialism was embraced as a form of government WELL BEFORE Marx every published his theory. I think the point was that Marxism is the most famous application of socialism in recent history and even IT predates the 100 year time frame you gave.

    "Third, in the feudal times you mention you weren't a proper citizen unless you were part of the 'land owning class' or nobility. So that is a given. A free market in a country only applies to that countries citizens, no?"

    That's a pretty interesting definition of a "free market" you've got there.

    You've essentially just argued that a market where the government gets to decide who can and can't participate (since the government dictates who is and is not a citizen as well as imposing the arbitrary rule that only citizens are allowed to participate) and other people can forcibly prevent you from participating (I don't think many slaves volunteered for the position) can be considered "free".

    If that's your idea of free I'd hate to see what you consider a regulated market to be.

    --
    I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
  40. VOIP & 911 by Anonymous+McCartneyf · · Score: 1

    I now have a mental image of Comcast giving equal priority to all VOIP calls--but only if you're calling 911.
    Oh, and if your 911 call is long-distance, then you are in trouble.

    --
    There is a fine line between recklessness and courage... -- Paul McCartney
  41. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

    "That's funny because I was under the impression that socialism was embraced as a form of government WELL BEFORE Marx every published his theory."

    Well, then you're under the wrong impression. Before Marx published his work socialism was nothing but an idea bantered about by european scholars. Marx and Engels were the first to roll it all up into a cohesive political theory. Thus the distinction between utopian socialists and scientific socialists. There was no party aparatus or other political organization. Just dinner party talk for the European intelligentsia. In fact, it wasn't until the 1870s that any real political power was held by socialist parties.

    Which is close enough to roll into the nice round number of 100 years. Deal with it. If you want to correct me to 137 years, be my guest, but it's worth pointing out that if you want to be pedantic, you ought to be _correct_.

    <i>"You've essentially just argued that a market where the government gets to decide who can and can't participate (since the government dictates who is and is not a citizen as well as imposing the arbitrary rule that only citizens are allowed to participate) and other people can forcibly prevent you from participating (I don't think many slaves volunteered for the position) can be considered "free".</i>

    Are you serious? Your idea of a free market is that non-citizens can hop off the boat and open a business, no questions asked? So by your measure there has never been a free market in the history of the world?

    In every civilization since Greece (and probably even before that) there has been distinction in privilege of those that are citizens and those that are not. And as far as I know, removing the concept of citizenship has never even been a part of the libertarian platform?

    Either you are so far off the deep end that you actually think that the concept of citizenship is too much government regulation, or you are just bullshitting because you dug yourself into a hole and feel you have to defend your (under-thought) arguments.

  42. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by kneejerker · · Score: 1

    I think your mistaking socialism for communism. Look up the parisian communes. Also the french revolution. Both, to my mind, are expressions of socialist governments, and predate Marxist communism by a fair margin. Flame begins now

  43. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

    Actually, before Marx wrote his manifesto, communism and socialism were interchangeable. They meant the same thing.

    "Socialism" was the preferred choice in England because "communism" sounded too much like "communion," as in holy.

  44. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by kneejerker · · Score: 1

    So, perforce, communism predates Marx. And i think your wrong on socialism and Communism being interchangeable. I was under the impression that prior to the word coming to discribe marxist theory, communism reffered to communes - thus my reference to the paris communes. I'll freely admit I'm going from memory here tho, link me sources and I shut the hell up :)

  45. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

    I don't have time to prove my point to some dude who I couldn't care less about. I am sure about this, I don't really care if you are.

    But I'm sure that wikipedia, infoplease, brittanica, or any other reference could shed some light on the subject for you.

  46. I don't think this is a good idea. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't think it is a good idea to make laws for future problems. It can have consequences that you don't see now. I know that a few problems have already come up, like dearaol, and the Level3 and that other company fiasco, but they mostly worked themselves out. I think the answer is less laws, not more.

    Notice the AC? That's because I know I'm disagreeing with most of the slashdot community. Disagreeing with the slashdot community is a sure way to lower your karma.

  47. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by mjtaylor24601 · · Score: 1
    "I'm sure that wikipedia, infoplease, brittanica, or any other reference could shed some light on the subject for you"

    Early communism

    In the history of Western thought, the idea of a society based on common ownership of property can be traced back to ancient times.[1] In his 4th century BCE The Republic, Plato considers the idea of the ruling class sharing property. [2] In the republic, the ruling or guardian classes are committed to an austere and communistic way of life, with the aim of devoting all of their time and efforts to public service. [3] At one time or another, various small communist communities existed, generally under the inspiration of Scripture.[4] In the medieval Christian church, for example, some monastic communities and religious orders shared their land and other property. (See Christian communism) These groups often believed that concern with private property was a distraction from religious service to God and neighbor. (Encarta)

    Communist thought has also been traced back to the work of 16th century English writer Thomas More. In his treatise Utopia (1516), More portrayed a society based on common ownership of property, whose rulers administered it through the application of reason. (Encarta) In the 17th century, communist thought arguably surfaced again in England. In 17th-century England, the Diggers, a Puritan religious group known as advocated the abolition of private ownership of land. (Encarta) Eduard Bernstein, in his 1895 Cromwell and Communism [4] argued that several groupings in the English Civil War, especially the Diggers espoused clear communistic, agrarian ideals, and that Oliver Cromwell's attitude to these groups was at best ambivalent and often hostile.[5]
    .....
    In its modern form, communism grew out of the socialist movement of 19th-century Europe. (Encarta) As the Industrial Revolution advanced, socialist critics blamed capitalism for the misery of the proletariat--a new class of poor, urban factory workers who labored under often-hazardous conditions.


    You're right, that wikipedia thing is really handy.
    --
    I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
  48. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by shaneh0 · · Score: 1

    Here you go jackass:

    The term "socialism" was first used in the context of early-19th century Western European social critics. In this period, socialism emerged from a diverse array of doctrines and social experiments associated primarily with British and French thinkers--particularly Robert Owen, Charles Fourier, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, Louis Blanc, and Saint-Simon. These social critics saw themselves as reacting to the excesses of poverty and inequality in the period, and advocated reforms such as the egalitarian distribution of wealth and the transformation of society into small communities in which private property was to be abolished. Outlining principles for the reorganization of society along collectivist lines, Saint-Simon or Owen sought to build socialism on the foundations of planned, utopian communities.

    The words socialism and communism were used almost interchangeably in the beginnings of the socialist movement, prior to the formation of communism as a distinct movement. People chose to use one or the other on the basis of perceived attitude to religion. In Europe, communism was considered to be the more atheistic of the two. In England, however, that sounded too close to communion with Catholic overtones; hence atheists preferred to call themselves socialists.[2]

    Early socialists differed widely about how socialism was to be achieved; they differed sharply on key issues such as centralized versus decentralized control, the role of private property, the degree of egalitarianism, and the organization of family and community life. Moreover, while many emphasized the gradual transformation of society, most notably through the foundation of small, utopian communities, a growing number of socialists became disillusioned with the viability of this approach and instead emphasized direct political action.

  49. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by mjtaylor24601 · · Score: 1

    Ok fine. If you want to argue that 19th century Western European social critics coined the term "socialism" and therefore by definition no form of government before that time could be correctly called a "socialist" government then go ahead, but such an argument is pedantry at it's best.

    Socialism is generally defined as "A system based on public ownership of the means of production and distribution of wealth", and such forms of government were experimented with long before Karl Marx. If you want to argue that they weren't socialist because no one had coined the term socialism then there's nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.

    --
    I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
  50. Re:Perhaps you,ve heard of these things called fac by mjtaylor24601 · · Score: 1

    "Well, then you're under the wrong impression. Before Marx published his work socialism was nothing but an idea bantered about by european scholars"

    I've already argued this point in the follow up thread from kneejerker so I won't bother to repeat it here.

    "Are you serious? Your idea of a free market is that non-citizens can hop off the boat and open a business, no questions asked?"

    Well in so much as a free market is defined as "One in which any individual may exchange their products or services by competitive bidding, open to all, without constraint", then yes I am making that argument. By definition a government rule that says that non-citizens are not allowed to engage in trade is a restriction on the economy which makes it less "free". Now, do I think that such a rule is a bad thing? Hell no! In fact I would argue that it is probably beneficial to society. But I'm at least grown up enough to acknowledge that a government restriction that I happen to agree with is still a government restriction.

    That's what this whole discussion is about. Many opponents of Net Neutrality claim to oppose it because it is "against the notion of the free market", as if this were somehow sufficient to make it a bad thing. My point is that just because something is counter to the free market doesn't mean it's something we shouldn't consider, the same way we do with rules concerning illegal immigrants and other non-citizens.

    Now that I've (hopefully) cleared that up, let me ask you a question.

    Is your idea of a free market feudal Europe where everything was by default owned by the nobility, and the Monarch could hand down any arbitrary decree about who was allowed to engage in what type of business?

    Is your idea of a free market early America where black people were not only prevented by law from participating in trade, but were themselves legally classified as chattel and all the benefits of their labour were automatically given to their "owner"?

    If not, then perhaps you could explain what you meant by

    "The success of the freemarket can be measured by look at the whole of human history prior to the 20th century."

    --
    I wish I were as sure of anything as some people are of everything
  51. FUD by various people by jonwil · · Score: 1

    Net Neutrality (and laws gauranteeing same) are not about preventing you (or anyone else) from applying QOS so that VoIP traffic gets priority over large file downloads.

    What it is about is preventing ISPs from deliberatly applying bandwidth restrictions to certain network protocols/ports, or source/destination addresses (such as "video traffic comming from google video is going to be bandwidth limited whilst video traffic from msn.com or cnn.com or trailers.mpaa.com is not")
    Some ISPs already do this by e.g. limiting traffic over BitTorrent to 64kbps or 128kbps or something even though you have a 1024kbps internet link (if people are downloading stuff over BitTorrent and sucking up too much bandwidth, make them pay for what they use)

  52. What about private property? by Silmaril · · Score: 1

    The owner of a good (including an IP network) should be allowed to decide how much to charge for the use of it.