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Networking in Extreme Conditions?
222 asks: "Mission: Create an intermediate distribution frame. Difficulty: A few feet away, industrial equipment will be generating roughly 2000 degree heat. Bonus: Keep the network switches inside the IDF from melting. Does anyone have experience in making IT work in such extreme conditions? Is there an enclosure in existence that can handle this type of abuse? This is essentially what I've been asked to accomplish, and now I'm asking my fellow readers for help: Can it be done?"
Your going to need more than just an insulated box. I cant think of any other way to do this than a water cooled box. ie a box with some pipes in the walls then you put in your hardware. Not sure refrigeration would even work in these conditions.
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Ask an avionics engineer.
Cisco make some pretty hard-wearing equipment, but I'm not sure they make anything capable of withstanding 2000 degree heat. Perhaps you should be talking to a consultant that specialises in industrial and extreme condition networking instead of slashdot?
Global symbol "$deity" requires explicit package name at line 2. - If only $scripture started "use strict;"
We need to start using this stuff. I'd like to see it at Home Depot eventually.
Where is the warning :P
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they are in the phone book under Rocket Scientists.
as a starting point. These beasts are supposed to be fireproof / fire resistant, so they should protect the stuff inside, however, then there is the problem of internal heat build-up.
There are peltier based coolers available designed to cool sealed boxes, but how they would cope with what sounds like a severe radiant heat source near by, who knows?
You are also going to have serious problems keeping the cat-6 from melting which implies metal ducting insulated from the heat source as well.
There are bound to be suppliers of extreme environment enclosures, try them for something suitable rather than re-inventing wheels.
Trying to associate Microsoft with "fun" is like trying to associate Satan with aromatherapy. -Tycho
Having worked on and in a networked environment for a 24-hour steel mill, I can predict that you'll have just as much trouble with interference as you will with heat. Assuming you overcome the heat issue, whatever's generating it will also be generating so much interference you'll be lucky to get 10mbits from a gigabit line.
Our solution was to use fiber for pretty much everything, to the point that we were using so much that it was simpler to use fiber for every tasks than mix in cat5.
Regarding the heat issue, if you're based as an IT specialist in an industrial environment, then you have to liase with the site engineers for this kind of task. It's outside of your experience/training/knowledge, so don't succumb to vanity and assume that you have the intelligence to pull through it unaided. Such a place will already have other heat and interference-sensitive equipment which has been installed by engineers on-site, and they'll be able to do the same for your equipment.
Expect a hefty price tag for installing a suitable thermal casing and ventilation system. Or after due consideration and consultation, if it can't feasibly be done then that's the end of the discussion.
I can't imagine a situation where you would need to have a switch "a few feet" away from a 2000 degree device. But, if you really need to do that, make sure you have a LOT of spare switches around...
Duke
FreeBSD: Nothing runs like a daemon with a pitch fork.
There was recently a similar Ask Slashdot asking us readers how we would handle severe cold environments. Most people said to keep the equipment as far away as possible.
I suggest the same, since I've never heard of solder that can stay solid at those temperatures, much less sillicon (or whatever crazy elements are being used nowadays) not turning into the Magical Blue Smoke that makes machines run.
You're asking for a great deal of problems (or intense job security) if you put anything electronic near that heat. At the least, run the sensor cables as long as is feasable AWAY from the heat, preferably THROUGH a firewall and into a nice human-friendly environment.
If that's not possible, the above idea of using a fire-proof safe with a great deal of COLD airflow (100's of CFM) might work, but I'd hate to clean up the aftermath of a cooling system failure.
Oh yeah, make plenty of backups. You'll need them sooner rather than later.
OK I'll bite.
I work with industrial networks...
WTF do you want networking kit so close to such a heat soure?
The motors/sensors etc on the machinery (ie, your heat source) should fead back into PLC controalers which are *bombproof*.
Only then well away from the machinery do you fead the signals from your PLC, into a computer to network and process data. (Or better than this, a robust NI fieldpoint network module to network the data, and process the data well away from the factory floor.)
Putting network switches in such a harsh environment in taking the piss. I'm not saying it can't be done, but you need to look at how everybody else reliably does it, and think why you are trying to do it another way.
Oh and BTW, 2000 F = 1093 C Most of us use SI units :-)
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
The parent summed up the entire scenario for you perfectly.
:)
I trained as a mechanical engineer, and I work now in IT.
Once you get into an industrial environment, recognise you don't know what you are doing.
The site engineers should be quite happy for you to outline the locations and temperature range you need, and work out a solution to that problem. Be specific about the scope of your situation and don't try to solve the problem for them.
And if you have to, work back up the chain a bit and see if they have alternate paths to send the cable, maybe that will help... The fibre is possibly a necesity too. I'm finishing up an airport project ATM, and everything that is important that needs to travel distances goes by fibre.
Just remember, YOU'RE the clueless client now. Be clear and specific with exactly what you need achieved, and they should be able to help.
Is that Fahrenheit, Celsius or Kelvin? Since even NASA is metric now, can I have that in some SI unit?
I agree with the FooHentai about fiber, you want that, don't even bother with cat 5. You also want to work with your plant electrician and draw on their experience dealing with heat.
You are also going to want some kind of shield to run in front of the enclosure, even if it's just a piece of metal that maintenance installs. That shield will get fairly got, so keep it a good foot or so from your equipment. This will also stop some of the interference that whatever equipment your working will put out.
Get a proper industrial enclosure to put your equipment in, and expect to pay heavily for it. You can also get ruggedized switches like the Cisco Catalyst 2955S-12 that are designed for extreme heat conditions to begin with. Do as much shielding as you can, it can make a big difference on how effective your equipment works.
This really is the wrong place to ask, unless you think some stupid geeked out heatsink covered in flashing neon lights from m4dsk1llz-ov3rcl0kerz.com is going to cut the mustard.
The only reason that I can see to have network switch equipment that close to 2000 degree heat (units? please?) is that you must be part of the Devil's IT team in Hell and you are in the network group.
What we've done at my place is to shield the boxes with fiberfrax board on the heat-facing side. Typically on a warm summer day, 10-15 feet from the furnaces it can reach 300 - 400 degrees. Keeping lateral air circulation is key (i.e. a cooler air flow along the side of the furnace that hits the side of the box) helps. Even with all that we end up replacing components at least once a year. Water cooled can help, but here in colorado the winters have frozen numerous water jackets even a few feet from the furnace (2800 degree). In most cases, cooled air brought in to the box via lines from an ac or fan works well enough without worrying about freezing or leaks.
Really the best solution is to keep all components with the exception of the cable itself in a control room or mcc room where there is some form of climate control.
I'll believe in corporations having personhood when Texas executes one... - advocate_one
1997 called, they want their joke back.
No way! We all know that there are lakes of molten brimstone in hell, which limits the temperature to its boiling point, which is 444C. I quote from http://www.fifer.net/quotes/:
The temperature of Heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is Isaiah 30:26, "Moreover, the light of the Moon shall be as the light of the Sun and the light of the Sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days." Thus Heaven receives from the Moon as much radiation as we do from the Sun, and in addition 7*7 (49) times as much as the Earth does from the Sun, or 50 times in all. The light we receive from the Moon is one 1/10,000 of the light we receive from the Sun, so we can ignore that ... The radiation falling on Heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation, i.e., Heaven loses 50 times as much heat as the Earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann law for radiation, (H/E)^4 = 50, where E is the absolute temperature of the earth (-300K), gives H as 798K (525C). The exact temperature of Hell cannot be computed ... [However] Revelations 21:8 says "But the fearful, and unbelieving ... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, 444.6C. We have, then, that Heaven, at 525C is hotter than Hell at 445C.
From "Applied Optics" vol. 11, A14, 1972
Say out loud: I'm an Aspie and I'm somewhat proud, I guess. Uh. Can I write an email in all caps instead? Hm...
Maybe a ceramic surface on the enclosure will help. I know it's used in exhaust piping and other high-heat applications, but whether it's viable I don't know -- I have no idea what (and how big) an IDF is, or how you would go about insulating it.
But if you can't move the heat away from the equipment, can you move the equipment away from the heat? Why is it that it needs to be that close? Can't you put only a subset of the equimpent (sensors, antennae, &c) close by and move the bulk of it to a safer location where heat isulation/dissipation is more easily handled?
"Good news, everyone!"
Give it a few years, and perhaps global warming will make this standard operating conditions?
I have to say... however overused and lame this retort is... it makes me smile every single time. Thanks :)
Aerogel. It's been covered on /. before. You can read about it here.
There are companies marketing it now. You can buy it in cut sections. It would be perfect for lining the outside of an IDF. One thing though--it will hold in heat equally as well as keep it out. You might have to have an AC unit of some kind.
A lot of people have mentioned Cisco, but I'm not sure how many of them have actually worked in chemical plants. For industrial plants, you want your switches with all your other 'sensitive' equipment -- in the PLC enclosure or the remote station. You can purchase these enclosures at different NEMA ratings for your industrial application. For switches, we use Phoenix Contact, which are DIN rail devices that go in the PLC panel.
Industrial control is a whole different ballpark. What works for business offices doesn't work in factories.
Titus Barik
Why don't you ask the people that installed whatever it is your plugging into the switch, as they obviously had the same problem, if they didn't why are you putting the switch beside the industrial machinery?
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I'm a cubical-jockey IT guy. I often end up helping out installing IT equipment at some of my companies plants, and although it's nothing near the enviromental setup as the poster described; you gotta realize that the plants have Plant Engineers that know thier setup just like you know the setup of your network or whatever.
I'll also agree with the people that stated you better have a pretty real budget here. Industrial-hardend equipment is expensive for a reason.
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You must work at the Gates of Hell. Best solution is to wait until Hell freezes over, or force it to freeze over by doing one of the following:
1) Get the Duke Nukem sequel released.
2) Get Microsoft to release a Linux distro (or, for just a slight cooling, Office for Linux)
3) Get my co-worker to admit that Star Trek pwns Star Wars.
There are other methods involving fiber and hardened switches in fireproof bunkers, but that's HARD.
KLL
Use a bit of science! You can make the box a little cooler by reflecting infra-red light away from the box. When we human beings "feel heat" from things like the sun and electric heaters, we are sensing the infra-red electromagnetic "light waves" radiating from the source. Since that is light, even though we humans can't see it, finding a mirror that reflects infra-red well should help keep the box cooler, if it is near the heat source. Of course, you will still need to cool the box since the ambient air temperature near the box is probably higher than recommended for the networking equipment. Still, using an IR mirror may greatly reduce the amount of cooling needed.
Ouch! The truth hurts!
Subject says it all.
Doubting the existence of evolution is like doubting the existence of China: It just shows that you're uninformed.
And yet, inexpensive aerogel with a ceramic sheild will do the trick. All for a fraction of your solution.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
You were misled.
No one is asking you to do what you think they are asking you to do.
Tell us what the industrial equipment is and we'll tell you if it will actually affect network equipment a few feet away.
For example, I have installed networked data acquisition systems within feet of plasma torches that reach over 10000K, no special considerations with regard to heat were required at all.
Tell us what the equipment is and we'll tell you if you actually have a problem or not.
captcha: panties (As in, don't get them in a bunch.)
> The IDF is already in place, and the decision has been made to place a new furnace in this area.
Bloody hell!
Was whoever made this decision in full possetion of all the facts when they made it?
Seriously, you are going to struggle with this, no matter what solution you come up with.
With interference on the line, heat shielding will be the least of your problems. Personaly I'd aproach whoever made this decision and thell them it can't be done without spending some serious money. Good Luck
Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
Don't believe what you read is the truth.
You should contact the "project manager" from this job..... http://thedailywtf.com/Articles/A_Secure_and_Well- Ventilated_Location.aspx
Fire bricks are usually rated for 2200F, within your range limit. I like the idea of reflecting back some of that heat, assuming you can find a reflector that won't be affected by the temps. Mounted against a wall of fire brick, and the other side should be well within temp limits for off-the-shelf gear.
How do I know this? My father owns a home in the Poconos, with a real nice fireplace. The fire bricks keep the house from burning down, even when the fire gets a few chunks of dry wood. Heck, the fireplace glass itself does a pretty fair job.
-BA
EE, how goes it fine sir? :-)
I'm a mechanical engineer for a glass plant, and we have leveling lasers with microprocessors built into the sides of our furnaces (typically >1500 C) - they have a case with a water jacket built around them, and the water is cycled through a forced-air convective system outside. The lasers are typically kept at about 45 C with no problem. Firms do exist to design such systems.
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A few years ago a friend of mine was working in mineral exploration. One of the systems that he was working on was in a rack which had protective tiles over it. It was claimed at the time that it was using space shuttle style tiles to reflect heat they had some other features and insulation I cannot recall. I have asked the guy to make a post....
As others have said, you really need to talk to an engineer about this. Having said that, remember the three ways that heat can be transmitted: radiation, conduction, and convection. Insulating the box takes care of conductive transfer. To prevent radiative transfer, the box should be wrapped in several layers of reflective material, with air gaps between the layers. Then, to prevent convective transfer, blow cool air through the spaces between the layers of reflective material.
Build a huge (very tall -- because it can not be very wide) heat sink in between the heat source and the equipment. Make the heat sink filled with water, and continuously exchange out the heated water with cool water. Add a refrigration system to the water, if the water volume is not enough by itself. Also, try and get a heat sink on the heat producer to direct heat away from the equipment. Ie.) outside. The water in the heat sink should keep the metal that contains it from melting. Water is pretty amazing stuff, so don't underestimate its value.
How about moving the IDF underground? (or rather, below the heat-generating equipment)
If you build a small "basement" as a networking closet, you won't need to do all that much to shield it from the heat.
just a thought...
Did you know that "FTW" ("for the win") is a direct translation of "Sieg Heil"?
CAN in vehicle. In most cars, at lease 10 sensors, keep feeding data to the ECU. Chips are placed behind firewall (whatever seperates the compartment and engine room), others like wire bundle, fuse and relays reside with the heat source. Due to harsh requirement (4 cyln engine ignite 4 times every ms @ 6000 rpm, oxygen sensor with 300 degree celcius working temperature mount on the catalytic convertor operate @ 900 degree celcius, wire 18 or less awg prefer.
If you are really in a 2000 degree uncontrolled environment, you will find all your cables melt. The only thing that might last is the Teflon cables, which are really expensive. Keep in mind any spilled molten steel/aluminum/magnesium/whatever will melt through stuff that the computer industry thinks is indestructible. Also, the industrial guys like moving equipment around. Plan on them rearranging anything that looks like it can be remotely moved.
My solution: after experimenting with conduit covered wires, we concluded cables were too expensive. We went all wireless. We used special antennas, and located everything so they got clear signals. (Interference is a bitch, and RF doesn't go around 5000 ton machines.)