Slashdot Mirror
New Plan In UK For "Big Brother" Database
POPE Mad Mitch writes "The BBC is reporting that Tony Blair is going to unveil plans on Monday to build a single database to pull together and share every piece of personal data from all government departments. The claimed justification is to improve public services. The opposition party and the Information Commission have both condemned the plan as another step towards a 'Big Brother' society. Sharing information in this way is currently prohibited by the 'over-zealous' data protection legislation. An attempt to build a similar database was a key part of the, now severely delayed, ID card scheme."
They've already tried it once, and so has the FBI/DOJ, both of them dropping the ball and wasting millions of taxpayer dollars/pounds. A modest team of pros should be able to complete a project like this for far less money and in a reasonable amount of time, it's getting to where I don't think they actually intend to make these systems function, it's just a money pit. Another pork project for the IT consultancies who happen to know the right people.
Thanks to the War on Drugs, it's easier to buy meth than it is to buy cold medicine!
I, for one, welcome our new public servant overlords.
is to sell the mailing lists to raise more money for more pork projects.
OK, so they'll organise it just like in 'Brazil', then charge you for collecting your data?
Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
Don't you want to be Secure Beneath the Watchful Eyes in the UK? What is the problem?
It seems perverse that anyone would consider this a remotely reasonable plan.
The article doesn't look at the technical side of doing this at all, but its pretty obvious that todo what they are talking about doing here, it means restructuring the data for hundreds if not thousands of applications that are in use now.
Why is the UK government so gung-ho on these 'MegaIT Projects'?
Lets hope this dosen't get traction, but as with most things 'New Labour', I can only imagine this is signed and sealed now that the public are being made aware
This is where the UK needs a "Move On" to organise citizen opposition. Britons should stop thinking of themselves as "subjects".
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/pri/en/oj/dat/2002/l_ 201/l_20120020731en00370047.pdf
0 2dltr0014.html
http://www.law.duke.edu/journals/dltr/articles/20
Does GB intend to withdraw from the EU?
If so, the "Big Brother" talk is more than idle literary reference. We can move forward with renaming Britannia to "Airstrip One."
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
The good thing is, the entire system will fulfill all the requirements of Orwell's "memory hole."
The bad thing is, the entire system will fulfill all the requirements of Orwell's "memory hole."
Are all these IT Projects and police cameras actually a secret plot to harness George Orwell's spinning body as the primary power source for the U.K?
I lived in the U.K as a teen and always wanted return later. Now, the thought of returning gives me the creeps.
Winston would be so proud.
Vive la George!
My lasers trace, everything you do,
You think you've private lives, think nothing of the kind
There is no true escape, I'm watching all the time!
CHORUS:
I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam
I am perpetual, I keep the country clean.
I'm elected, electric spy,
I'm protected, electric eye.
Always in focus, you can't feel my stare,
I zoom into you, you dont know I'm there.
I take a pride in probing, all your secret moves,
My tearless retina takes, pictures that can prove.
Electric eye (in the sky)
Feel my stare (always there)
There's nothing you can do about it, develop and expose,
I feed upon your every thought, and so my power grows!
I'm made of metal, my circuits gleam
I am perpetual, I keep the country clean.
I'm elected, electric spy,
I'm protected, electric eye.
I'm Elected - Protected - Detective - Electric - Eye.
- Judas Priest, Electric Eye, 1982.
25 years ago, this was cheesy hair-metal dystopic science fiction.
Sucks to be us.
The UK is half "Europe" and half "America Jr." They track the US much more closely than the rest of Europe (if you hadn't noticed through the whole Iraq issue).
The UK already has a history of over budget information-sharing projects. In related news, the FBI also wasted $100 million on the fiasco that is the Virtual Case File database. If intel agencies are really interested in sharing data, maybe they should follow the CIA's example of using secure Wikis?
In any event, I agree with the other commentators that this is a pork project more than anything.
They both protect them differently. The USA protects the rights of the individual (like free speech and no gun control) while Europe protects the rights of the group (like restricting hate speech against groups and having gun control). This is mainly because they have implemented their systems differently. In the US rights that aren't delegated to the government are reserved by the people, while in Europe rights that aren't delegated to the people are reserved by the government.
They both have their good points and bad points. The US system will return to equilibrium in a couple of years and beat the European system in protections (even though we have a temporary crackdown today). You just have to rough it out for a couple of years.
FTFA: "Sharing information in this way is currently prohibited by the 'over-zealous' data protection legislation."
.. legislation is interesting. I think that many if not most of the citizens or subjects would consider any legislation that permits such information sharing to be over-zealous.
The use of the phrase over-zealous
My doctor doesn't need to know what my taxes were, nor does the tax man need to know what speeding tickets I've had. The only probable useful use of this information sharing by the government is to track people of covertly wrong reasons.
I'm pretty certain that the MI5 doesn't need to know how many people reported to the doctor for STD treatments, so what they are tracking is information that they shouldn't be collecting anyway. In spite of the surprisingly vast amount of information about private citizens that is available on the Internet, collating all government owned information about citizens will provide nothing useful in the war on terror or the war against drugs.
In case nobody was paying attention, the attacks in NYC and London were perpetuated by people that either already should have set off security bells, or by people who would not set off security alerts anyway. Creating this type of spying system will not deter terrorists, criminals, or any other group they might claim to be fighting.
Like gun control, if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have them, and if you outlaw privacy, only outlaws will have it.
Its time that governments, especially elected ones, start learning that you don't force peace, but encourage it, protect it and these can only be done WITH the cooperation of citizens, not in spite of their rights or through sacrificing their rights for them.
Sure, they can read and record this and it still won't help them find any subversives. In fact, they will have only wasted money tracking my statements instead of focusing on using currently implemented laws and methods of upholding those laws.
I'm not against sharing data, but when it can be tracked back to individuals it necessarily becomes a kind of evil. Knowing the eating habits of all 37 year old men who have had minor heart attacks can be a very useful set of data, But also knowing their names and addresses, voting records, tax numbers, and what type of car they drive is not necessary to the usefulness of the information.
If this has been announced, rest assured that the implementation phase is already underway.
As has been said, now is the time to make this an election issue. I'm pretty sure that those present at the signing of the Magna Carta would not approve of this. Hmmmmmm
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
You can only wonder if Tony Blair's decision is also the democratic decision of the People of the UK who vehemently oppose such controversial schemes. It boils down to the question: Can the UK at present still be considered a democracy when the PM repeatedly abuses his power that was initially entrusted in him by its citizens and now keep betraying his own country? I do not think so.
I like how that implies that they're not yet already there. Denial is aparrently the Thames now, not a river in Egypt.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
Here's another interesting question:
IF you took it as established that there were going to be these systematic invasions of privacy and compilations of databases and whatnot...
As is currently being done by organizations within both government and corporate sectors...
Would you rather have this information legally protected and made obscure so only those with government authority or enough money and resources to assemble it themselves have access to this information?
Or commercialized so the rich and powerful get more access to it?
Or made public and available to everyone with universal access?
And why?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
If they care so much about that TV show, why don't they just Google it rather than making their own trivia database?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
One nice, big, fat, juicy target. It'll be nice not to have to break into all these different, incompatable databases all the time. Yep, should save a lot of work for the crooks when they're stealing laptops. Now they'll need only one. Very convenient indeed.
What?
britain is nothing like the rest of europe, in fact most countries within europe are nothing like each other. you use britain and europe as interchangable regions when they are not, british laws don't effect european countries. this fact obivously escapes you since your american and have no concept of the world past your own city block.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
The UK is half "Europe" and half "America Jr."
No. The US is the Original European Union. What they are doing in the old country is emulation.
What?
And will there be mutton dressed up as lamb?
Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
I'm a UK citizen and resident. In my experience government departments don't talk to each other and it does lead to problems for everyday people, this would be a valid way of working towards solving that problem. I'm sure our glorious leaders are aware of the benefits it will give them in controlling the population, and I expect they think it's a good idea. IMHO the bureaucracy has become so complex and unwieldy that even it's professional administrators can't keep up.
Of course this is a UK government IT project, so it is doomed to failure.
Blair loves to copy Bush in everything. This is just another. The NSA had this a long time ago I'm guessing, and I'm guessing this whole operation will be run through sym links:) I'd bet he already has it, too. I'd be good if the EU had, um, a government to keep all this tracking together. I'm not afraid of just another database (I'm sure they're already everywhere) but with such clear disorganization the countries are showing in gereral, they might lose track of the operation. 1984 is the best distopia book, but I've heard of many that are just plainly that the world has too much knowledge, and society is just spinning off hopelessly.
The U.S.A. is nothing like the rest of America. In fact most countries within America are nothing like each other. you use the U.S.A. and America as interchangeable regions when they are in fact not. The laws of the U.S.A. don't necessarily affect other American countries. This fact obviously escapes you since you are European and your grip of the world past your own city block is about as strong as the one you have on spelling and grammar.
Personal information stored in big brother database
A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
...is a double bladed sword. This means it will also be easier for the bad guys to steal all your personal information. (Assuming you don't think your government is one of the bad guys; and a bigger assumption being that a government entity can accomplish this.)
"I gotta be honest, I'd feel safer walking through any working class town in the South than the equivalent in Britain."
Hmmmm, I recently went on a fly/drive holiday to Britain and Ireland during world cup season. My partner and I drove 3500 miles in 5 weeks and stayed in pubs and B&B's. The only "problem" I saw was a couple of kids trying to rip the door of a phone box late at night, I stuck my head out of the window of our room and told them to fuck off, they didn't even answer back, they just ran.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
Disclaimer: Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors.
I was looking for the correct option to mod you, but the "wrong" option just wasn't there.
From the Online Writing Lab at purdue:
"Use a pair of commas in the middle of a sentence to set off clauses, phrases, and words that are not essential to the meaning of the sentence. Use one comma before to indicate the beginning of the pause and one at the end to indicate the end of the pause.
Here are some clues to help you decide whether the sentence element is essential:
* If you leave out the clause, phrase, or word, does the sentence still make sense?
* Does the clause, phrase, or word interrupt the flow of words in the original sentence?
* If you move the element to a different position in the sentence, does the sentence still make sense?
If you answer "yes" to one or more of these questions, then the element in question is nonessential and should be set off with commas. Here are some example sentences with nonessential elements:
Clause: That Tuesday, which happens to be my birthday, is the only day when I am available to meet.
Phrase: This restaurant has an exciting atmosphere. The food, on the other hand, is rather bland.
Word: I appreciate your hard work. In this case, however, you seem to have over-exerted yourself."
We cant share simple media yet the governments and big bussiness can share all form of personal and private information on us. Why the double standards whats next well all are going to have to have a chip embeded in our hands?
Mutated by Scientists.
The terrorists of the future aren't in Iraq, Afghanistan, or any Mosque like our govt. would like us to belive. They're lurking in Downing Street, and Westminster.
Tony Blair and Gordon Brown may lay the foundations for it, but sooner or later, our greatest fears will be of the government themselves.
Could someone please explain to me how this scheme is different than the Danish CPR-Register? We Danes have had it since 1968, and as far as I am concerned, I do not think Denmark has turned into a totalitarian state.
:)
In fact, the CPR scheme allows data to be easily accessed between different departments of the government and organisations. Also our CPR-number works as a global key to many services, making access that much easier. It's true that your dentist should not see your crime record, but I don't think that any agency in the UK will be granted any information that is not relevant to their role.
Then again, since I am Social Democrat, I guess I have a hard time agreeing with the fears that naturally plague Libertarians (who seem to make out a vocal part of this discussion) about such measures.
Let's keep things civil
another good test to see if your two commas are appropriate is to read the sentence without including the phrase between those two commas. if your sentence makes sense this way then your commas are probably appropriate since the section between the commas is either slightly off-topic or is some sort of modifier.
"i stand on the edge of destruction" -shai hulud
In all the arguments about Bush, there have been repreated suggestions that Blair is more intelligent than Bush. I do not think this is so at all. He has superior verbal fluency (he is a barrister, i.e. a talking lawyer.) But all the signs are that in understanding of the modern world, strategic grasp and understanding of the structure of, and problems of, society, he is every bit as blinkered and limited as Bush.
I'm sorry about this rant, but thank you for reading it. Meanwhile, if you _do_ share the misfortune of being English, please do something. Write to your MP. He will probably be a technical illiterate too, so try and spell it out very plainly without using jargon. Gathering all information about citizens into a big central repository accessed by many different groups - police, NHS, Civil Servants - is a recipe for disaster in a country where newspapers buy and sell informants every day. A country that cannot prevent newspapers from illegally tapping telephones, cannot prevent criminals, Ruper Murdoch and Lord Rothermere from gaining illegal access to such a huge centralised database. Until the Government can somehow fix the abuses of the Press and the opportunities for blackmail, they should never consider such a database.
Pining for the fjords
Which means you can buy it in Alaba market, Lagos for Naira 1,000 or a similar value in Roubles in Moscow, but slightly less in Latvia, Lithuania, and slightly more almost anywhere else.
The UK's IT infrastructure leaks data like a sieve, and the more you put in to a sieve, the faster it leaks out.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Maybe in the US it is, but in the UK we have data protection legislation so the only agencies that have access to everything are law enforcement (and even the police need to jump through hoops for some bits of that).
Y'know, if you add every government department up, the public sector is one of the biggest single employers in almost any first-world country. Much bigger than any one company. Given the typical government approach to security (one password and you're in to everything), do you really want your neighbour who works as a receptionist in the doctor's surgery to be able - even in theory - to view your tax records?
It's too late for me! SAVE YOURSELF
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Brother_(Yes_Mini ster)
"the new National Integrated Database: the detailed personal records of every UK citizen, which will be held on computer by the government"
England Prevails
When I was working on similar systems in America, we estimated (in our internal risk analyses) that information in a local police database accessible to the average user could be acquired by unauthorised outside users for about $1000. The corresponding figure for a national police agency database was about $10,000. If the information was more valuable than that, additional safeguards were needed. The UK Government proposal is basically flying in the face of that.
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
will it be using MySQL?
So this would be like the bank that I moved to, which offered to transfer all my direct debits, salary payments etc. from my old bank account to the new one automatically? The one where they made such a mess of a simple process that after several weeks of grief, I went into my local branch, demanded to see the manager, and sat there while he phoned head office and asked them to stop, please? I then contacted all the organisations involved manually, correcting the screw-ups and updating the bank account details, in less time than it took to fix the bank transfer department's mess.
The problem with all these grand plans is that they're great in theory. If everything works, and the data never leaks, and only trustworthy people have access to the database, it's all fine. But what if this doesn't happen in practice? What legal requirement is there for the government to keep the information 100% secure? Where is the law that says I will automatically be refunded all expenses incurred as a result of any leak, in perpetuity? Where is the law that says a court will immediately dismiss any action taken against me by any government department as a result of an error the government made in the mega-database? How will they put the horse back in the stable if (when?) the information in the database leaks to ID thieves? Where is the law that says the government will disclose any such leak to me in timely fashion? Where is the law that says the government must provide a simple, effective and fast mechanism for me to correct errors in the database when I become aware of them? (If you're about to cite the Data Protection Acts, where is the funding to increase staff levels at the Office of the Information Commissioner by a factor of three so that they can meet the workload they already have under the DPA and FOIA?) Where is the guarantee that the contractors brought in to implement the scheme will complete it for the originally agreed amount of money, or that this original amount of money will be less than the savings made by switching to the new system? You get the idea: things that work in theory do not always work in practice.
I always find it odd that it's called a debate. Of course I can go only by my own experience, which may not be representative of the entire population, but I've never heard anyone except a politician and a few people on obviously biased on-line boards speak in favour of the government's proposals for ID cards and the National Identity Register. Moreover, those surveys I have seen that should be representative of the population as a whole suggest that in fact, most people here are unconvinced of the benefits.
Am I the only person who thinks a debate is what governments call presenting a fait accompli to the population, and letting it hit the papers for a few days so they can claim they consulted the people on the matter before proceeding to implement what they'd already decided to do anyway?
No, they can't. Government is a big place (think what proportion of the population work for it!) and fortunately for us all, things aren't nearly as open as that today.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
The Danish Society of Engineers
Reduce, reuse, cycle
Party % of seats %of vote
h tm">system where the votes are rigged</a>.
Labour 55 35.2
Tory 30.5 32.3
Liberal 9.6 22.0
We don't live under a democratic system, we live under a <a href="http://www.psr.keele.ac.uk/area/uk/uktable.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Given the typical government approach to security (one password and you're in to everything), do you really want your neighbour who works as a receptionist in the doctor's surgery to be able - even in theory - to view your tax records?
We already have that problem - she could work for the tax department.
Perhaps we should fund the government with a method that doesn't require invasive records on every citizen.
Already planned in the National Identity Register (the old scheme, already halfway to being abandoned couse they can't make it work...this news suggest it's now three quarters of the way to being abandoned) The plan was when you go for your compulsory interrogation and fingerprinting, they'll charge you for the privilege. Remember, this is the government that when it falsely imprisons people for decades, and is forced by the courts to pay 6-figure sums in compensation, subtracts board and lodgings for those years of imprisonment from the sum. The overwhelming all-seeing incompetent police state of Brazil, that charges suspects for the costs of their torture and interrogation, looks more and more predictive.
That can't be!!! I keep being told by Brits that America is a dictatorship!!! How could that be happening in Britain? 10+lmao points in their faces.
Karma: Bad is the liberal way of saying this guy won't drink the kool aid here on slash dot. I wear my Karma with pride
Heh, we ran outta time for Stratford upon Avon and the Queen had booked St, Pauls for a birthday bash but we did see a naked cyclist casually ride by in the middle of Cambridge and the drive down the west coast of scotland blew me away. I was born near Manchester and emigrated to Oz in 1964, it's my first time back, we visited the history of my family name (we were the ruthless pricks who inhabited Ludlow and Wigmore castles). No offence but your takeaway sucks (what is the orange stuff on sandwiches and don't tell me it's cheese), the only decent food is breakfast in a B&B and lunch/dinner in a pub, so we met a shitload of locals many quite anebreated but all of them freindly enough.
BTW: Every where we went the drivers knew how to make eye contact when driving and I didn't see very many aggressive drivers, both can be a hassle here. Oh and if anyone reading this is going, DON'T pre-book your car, it costs a fortune to take it on the ferry to Ireland.
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
>No offence but your takeaway sucks ;-)
There are one or two good chains but on the whole, yes, you're right.
>what is the orange stuff on sandwiches and don't tell me it's cheese
Orange? God knows! Especially in a sandwich. Cheese is usually sort of yellow. Oh, it could have been Red Leicester but that's usually a bit more, well, reddish.
Basically, if you had something orange in your sandwich and lived, be happy
I want a list of atrocities done in your name - Recoil
OK, I give up. I'm a "glass half full" person. Which one am I supposed to choose? :-/
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
It's sad, John Butcher died a week or so ago at the age of 60. There was an MP, one of very few, who understood technology and its importance, and even tried to explain why manufacturing was important to Mrs. Thatcher - and he was in the same party. (He was chairman of Texas Instruments UK at one point, I think.) He left Parliament in 1997, which was a pity.
Pining for the fjords
Example: Welfare recipient actually has a live-in boyfriend working for another agency that brings in tons. Can reclaim overpayment via taxes. Without linking of data between the 3 agencies, that may never be caught. Older medicaid recpient cant afford to decent housing and doesnt file since she makes so little and lives in a 'center'. She has back SS $ coming to here, but since the tax people cant see the records, they cant get the money to her to move out of government assisted housing and into her own place.. Now, can it be abused? Sure..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
In fact most countries within America are nothing like each other. you use the U.S.A. and America as interchangeable regions when they are in fact not. The laws of the U.S.A. don't necessarily affect other American countries.
Not for want of trying on the part of the USA. e.g. trying to get Canadians to change their copyright laws.
Given the amount of what I call "low impact xenophobia" in the UK, the government will force this first into foreigners, who nobody cares in this country about, the sociopaths in the Labour party know foreigners are an easy target to try this and any other of their great social inventions.
Once we 2nd class humans in this country are "registered" they can iron out all the details about how they will make this "work" for the indigenous population (people with half a clue knows this is just a waste of money, but whatever).
These and many other "initiatives" remind us all people living in the UK the roots of the Labour party: a socialist party. And we know how socialist and communist countires treat their people: with suspicion. The instincts are the same, not even Tony Blair and his cronnies could become Tory (Conservative) enough to care about civil liberties and freedoms.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Which is the best protector of civil rights? USA or Europe?
Europe, hands down, one hundred percent.
Think of the UK as an extra US State. It's not Europe.
welome our giant database weilding overlords
This is fine, as long as they give all citizens access to the data. Also, all government workers would also need to be listed in this database. I could stomach living in a glass house, AS LONG AS IT'S TWO WAY, NOT ONE WAY. Make the government drink it's own coolade, and they desire for this sort of thing will be quickly chilled.
Exactly. If you look at the latest polls, only about 1/3 of the US population agrees with Bush on anything...
"But this one goes to 11!"
I don't think so. The RCMP opened peoples mail for >25 years starting in, iirc, the 50's. Completely illegally. They even had an office within Canada Post in Ottawa and simply had mail re-routed to the office to make opening it easier. All without warrants and all completely illegal. When it became public knowledge Canada's response was basically "oh! Right then, we'd better legalize right away!"...
The tyrant will always find a pretext for his tyranny - Aesop