The Twilight Years of Cap'n Crunch

Carl Bialik from WSJ writes "Tech pioneer John Draper, a legendary, eccentric figure in Silicon Valley better known as Cap'n Crunch, has slipped to the margins while his peers became rich, the Wall Street Journal writes in a profile. Draper was a 'phone phreak' and helped develop the technology for word processing and voice-activated telephone menus; meanwhile, he eluded the mainstream by tampering with the phone system, frequenting the rave scene and shouting at anyone smoking anywhere near him. 'Once tolerated, even embraced, for his eccentricities, Mr. Draper now lives on the margins of this affluent world, still striving to carve out a role in the business mainstream,' says the WSJ. More from the article: 'Contemporaries who've gone on to riches and fame say they've tried to help Mr. Draper over the years. Mr. Wozniak says Mr. Draper's problem is that his skills lie in technology rather in making business deals or starting a company. "He didn't come from a business orientation," says Mr. Wozniak.'"

Comments

Wow

[baldass_newbie]

When Woz is saying you don't have business skillz, that's something.
Seriously, the phrase for this 'Emotional Intelligence' and it's in short supply for most geeks/nerds/etc.

Re:Wow

[jellomizer]

Well Woz does have business skills. He is able to keep a job, maintain organizations, work well with people. He just doesn't like the remote aspect of upper management he just wanted to be an engineer. Compared to others like "Cap'n Crunch" and many other geeks they think just because they are smart that people will want to keep them. You can be the smartest person in the world but you will not be able to keep a job if you smell like 2 week old dead fish, and people feel you will at any one time snap.

Re:Wow

[cowscows]

Well, there are people who like to think that they're smart enough that they don't have to pay any mind to "society's rules", that their extreme brilliance is all that they need. Geeks are notorious for that, although often unfairly stereotyped to the extremes. But in generally, things like "I'm going to wear t-shirts and sandals to business meetings, and they can go ahead and fire me if they don't like it" are basically symptoms of the same thing.

The problem is that in the end, technology is really only useful to the point that it interacts with people. While there are many who will appreciate technology for technology's sake, if you're really going to get anywhere, what you're doing has to satisfy people. And if your attitude pushes people away before they can appreciate what you're trying to do with technology, then you're just going to end up isolating yourself. As smart as you are, there are other people out there just as smart, who are also able and willing to have more normal social contact with others, and they'll get chosen over you.

If you want to make a technology based business, It's not enough just to understand technology. You should also strive to understand people as well. You'll never figure it all out, but the ways that individuals, organizations, and societies work are important, and pretending that it isn't won't make everyone else go away.

Re:Wow

[jcr]

Oh, for pete's sake..

If you were as allergic to tobacco as he is, you'd yell too. I remember seeing his hand break out once because an ashtray had been spilled on him. It took a couple of weeks for the blistering and peeling to clear up.

Now, something that you probably don't know, is that when he was in jail, he got beaten severely because he refused to tell the mob how to make blue boxes. He has severe back problems to this day because of it. That's hardly the choice that would be made by someone who thinks none of the rules apply to him.

-jcr

Re:Wow

[GeckoX]

I don't agree.

The guy that shows up wearing a t-shirt and sandals to a business meeting, and is consciously thinking 'screw em if they don't like it', is NOT the kind of geek/nerd we're talking about here.

Your typical geek/nerd may appear a bit unkempt not because of a conscious decision, but because of any related thoughts not even entering into their mind.

We're talking the kind of person that can sit down and code for 2 days straight, never even thinking about eating or whatever. People that live in their head.

There's a BIG difference. Most geeks/nerds today really aren't. It's just fashionable to be seen as such, somewhat. And a lot of these people play up the part. Sad, but true.

Unfortunately, it's usually going to be the true geeks/nerds that get fired, let go, walked over, ignored whatever because they don't fit in with the social aspects at their place of work.

Personally, where I work, I try to be very very conscious about peoples abilities, and completely shut off everything else. I don't care if you're a nice guy or not, doesn't matter at all...unless it impacts your ability to do work or other people's ability to do their work. Stink in a meeting? Whatever, you're doing a great job and don't worry we wouldn't make you meet with our customers directly as we know you wouldn't deal with it well.

I've fired people that I actually liked a lot. I've fired more people that I'd actually hang out with outside of work than people that I wouldn't. On a personal level, I really can't stand some of the people I work with. Bottom line is though, that has just about zero impact on how they do their jobs. It takes all kinds.

Re:Wow

[JoshJ]

If more people believed in principles rather than rules, the world would be a better place.

Re:Wow

[rblancarte]

These are basic interpersonal skills, not business skills.

I think Woz was just being nice, or diplomatic. I read the blurb and then the article, the whole time thinking the same thing - this is something that a lot of people should learn from. I think you hit the nail right on the head M-GW.

After finishing up a CS program just last year, one of the biggest things I noticed was the major lack of social skills that many students had. There were many briliant students, but some of them just terrible at interpersonal interaction. I think the grandparent post is very right. Many brilliant computer types have this attitude about being so high and mighty they are irreplaceable. Hell, it was an article just last week.

Personally, I think that interpersonal skills are something that really should be worked on by the people themselves and also perhapse helped by educational facilities. Why not have CS programs teach a class(es) in interpersonal skills? Perhapse it will help guys like Crunch who are brilliant and have tons to contribute to find a place and realy make their mark. I think it is a shame that much of his brilliance has mostly gone on wasted.

RonB

Re:Wow

[tobi-azz]

Only if people believed in the _same_ principles. However, they don't, so we have rules.

Re:Wow

[JudgeFurious]

I didn't smell like 2 week old dead fish. I just forgot to bathe for a couple of days while I was working on something.

  Ok a month but I still smelled better than dead fish.

  The only reason they fired me was because that bitch in the clerical refused to go out with me and got that restraining order. The cowards in management were afraid of getting sued and I think one of them was having an affair with her. Once I finish my manifesto they'll all be sorry they ever fired the smartest man who ever worked there!

Re:Wow

[cayenne8]

"After finishing up a CS program just last year, one of the biggest things I noticed was the major lack of social skills that many students had. There were many briliant students, but some of them just terrible at interpersonal interaction. I think the grandparent post is very right. Many brilliant computer types have this attitude about being so high and mighty they are irreplaceable...."

I agree. I find it amazing that so many in the field have the personality of a small soap dish. That makes it tough when you almost have to 'drag' the brilliance out of a very smart person.

I find that quite often, if you get into the IT field...if you have a good personality, out going, personable and present yourself well in business situation, it will often more than make up for some tech skill deficiencies you might have, whereas someone lacking but, a tech wizard, will often get left behind professionally and financially. In this day in age, you cannot afford to be one dimensional.

One fine case in example, I'd just started one of my first tech jobs where the team took a huge chance on hiring me..I'd really only had experience teaching myself foxpro, and building a user interface while doing medical research while trying to get into med school. My degree is in Biochem. Anyway, they were going to use Delphi to build a windows interface to submit and manage processes on the mainframes they had. Well, I'd only been on the team maybe a week....and they had to give a presentation, to a small group of potential users....maybe about 15-20 people tops.

These guys were all terrified it seemed of standing in front of the people and presenting the strategy and ideas we were working on. I've never had a problem getting in front of a large group of people for anything...so, noob guy volunteers. It went just fine...but,from then on...many people noticed me, and i did well at the company. I would have people ask my opinion over others in the group that were MILES ahead of me technially....hell, I'd have to ask them at times, and then give the answer later to the higher ups that asked me. So, yes...people skills will go a LONG way to save your ass and move you forward in life. You have to have skills to back up BS for sure, but, mediocre skills and excellent people skills can take you much further that skills alone.

"Personally, I think that interpersonal skills are something that really should be worked on by the people themselves and also perhapse helped by educational facilities. Why not have CS programs teach a class(es) in interpersonal skills?"

Unfortunately, I dunno if this is something you CAN teach. While I hesitate to say that these important interpersonal skills are something you are "born with". I would say that they are pretty well ingrained in you by the time you are a teen or maybe even earlier. I don't say you can't learn new things, but, with most people that have the skills....they are second nature and natural for them to use. I'd say it is kind of like being 'witty' and being able to come up with funny things instantly in conversation....a skill that often is a sign someone has exceptional interpersonal skills.

Talk about evil

[szembek]

"helped develop the technology for word processing and voice-activated telephone menus". Thanks a lot buddy. YES, NO, NO, MAIN MENU, YES, ACCOUNT BALANCE!!

Re:Talk about evil

[welshwaterloo]

Man, you've got the weirdest word processor..

Re:Talk about evil

[LMacG]

The amazing thing is the his screen displayed "Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all."

Much more in Secret History of Hacking documentary

[toby]

For a historical overview, detailed reminiscences of phreaking and interviews with Draper, Wozniak and Mitnick, see The Secret History of Hacking (50 minutes). In particular it details how the phreaking story hit national headlines, how Draper and Wozniak met, prank calling the Vatican, and the blind hacker with perfect pitch who can control phone switches around the world by whistling.

Kinda Sad.

[jellomizer]

It is kinda sad to see a pioneer live the rest of his life in near poverity. But it also shows that in order to make it in the world you do need some ballance in your life. In order for society to respect you you must respect society. He bairly respected society and now society barly respects him.

Re:Kinda Sad.

[Peter Cooper]

That's a nice sentiment, but it's not really true. Look at Steve Jobs. He's not known for his respect to others.

I think I'd rewrite it to say.. in order for society to respect you, you must know how to manipulate society.

How Strange

[eldavojohn]

Mr. Wozniak says Mr. Draper's problem is that his skills lie in technology rather in making business deals or starting a company. "He didn't come from a business orientation," says Mr. Wozniak.

That's funny, "not coming from a business orientation" is pretty desirable when I'm looking for someone to talk to. I think Mr. Draper's real problems were that he picked the wrong friends when he was starting out & incurred legal fees he couldn't afford. If one of my friends was ever living in a vehicle, I'd be certain to lend a hand. Especially if I was some Apple hot shot. I guess my definition of "friend" differs from Mr. Wozniak's. A bright man under utilized in our society. And the article points out all of his problems. Although he made mistakes, I doubt his situation is entirely his fault. Another misunderstood engineer.

Re:How Strange

[tinkerghost]

Especially if I was some Apple hot shot. I guess my definition of "friend" differs from Mr. Wozniak's.

I doubt it differs that much, from the article, The Woz has paid for his legal bills.

Re:How Strange

[Just Some Guy]

If one of my friends was ever living in a vehicle, I'd be certain to lend a hand.

Says you. Without personally knowing the people involved, you can't possibly say that. My best friend from childhood - more like a brother, really - has been homeless for well over a decade. I've gotten him three different jobs that he held for a couple weeks before not showing up one day. He's sane, inasmuch as he's acting rationally: he's not willing to invest the responsibility necessary to maintain a fixed living space. What more can I do to help him?

Maybe Woz tried to give Cap'n a hand up a few too many times and got tired of it. Again, without being personally involved in the relationship, you can't know.

Re:How Strange

[Just Some Guy]

See, you just proved my point. I've been doing everything I can to help him for over 15 years, but you write it off as shrugging my shoulders and walking away. Well, the truth is a lot more complex than that, and without knowing me and my friend, you have no means to evaluate your hypothesis.

Re:How Strange

[Darby]

That's not being a friend. If the help you're giving someone isn't working, try something new. There is always help for someone. I don't need to know you OR your friend - who I'm not even talking about - this is not deducing motives, but actions. Someone stopping helping their friend FOR ANY REASON is not being as good a friend as they can. Simple. It doesn't matter if one friend is Hitler and the other Mother Theresa - motives, feelings, pizza preference, whatever - it doesn't come into it :)

One of my brothers is probably in worse shape than Capn Crunch, since he doesn't even have any "skillz" at all.
He had every opportunity in the world to make something out of his life and he has consistently refused to do so.

There isn't one of us that he hasn't lived with and robbed.
He's been sent to rehab several times and prison several more.

This is all over a period of more than 20 years.

We have all tried many different things to help from simply providing money, food and a place to stay, to helping get him jobs, to paying for education, tutoring and the like.

So, while it's nice to believe that people can always be saved from themselves, I don't believe it.

Given 20 years of Meth addiction, his brain is well and truly fried. He, for the most part, can't even string together words into meaningful sentences.

If I were to invite him into my house, then I know full well that he would steal shit *whether he needed money or not*.
If I let him live there, it would only be a matter of time until I came home and found my wife beaten to a bloody pulp because *that's the sort of shit he does*. And goes to prison for. Repeatedly. With no concern for the consequences, or the fact that it's his own family he's destroying.

So, there is no way in hell his friends and family are going to be able to pull him out of this since he has no real interest in pulling himself out.

At some point, in some situations, your best course is to just let them make their own way for better or worse.

So, while I find your sentiment admirable, I also find it rather naive.

Price of an interview

[jfoust2]

Back in the middle 80s, when I was writing for computer magazines, I was amazed that a young pup writer like me could get an interview with someone as famous as Mr. Crunch. I remember reading the Esquire blue-box article when I was a teen.

I met him at a trade show. When I asked for some time to sit down for the interview, he insisted we go back to his hotel and conduct the interview in the gym. I balked, eventually only getting a few quotes and a picture. It took me a while before I figured out what he really wanted. Apparently Mr. Crunch thought I was cute.

Re:Price of an interview

[YankeeInExile]

Hacker 1: Did you ever work out with Crunch?
Hacker 2: Once ...

There were a lot of "oncers" running around the bay area in that era. The best thing about meeting crunch wasn't meeting crunch -- it was all the hangers on that you met. Steve S. The guys from Berkeley who did the FatMac hack. Edjik. Perry F. John Perry. The list could go on for pages...

Re:Price of an interview

[redwoodtree]

Actually, not a troll at all. The same thing happened to me.

I was hanging with friends in the Bay Area one night when one of them said "Hey, there's captain crunch". He was just hanging out. So I started talking to him and he offered to show me some things and talk to me more. Being 19 and so excited to meet one of the all-time heroes of phreaking I followed.

Next thing I knew Mr Crunch was on my back (literally) and basically getting himself off. He's an odd, odd, odd odd odd bird. I shook him off and took off as quickly as I could.

Moo

[Chacham]

Woz is amazing.

A genius at electronics, he could not start a business for his life. So, he created an alter-ego, by taking everything that he isn't, and putting it into one new character. He names his new character as any techy would, by its function, and Mr. Jobs came to be. For a first name, he simply chose his own.

Think about it:

1) Can you imagine how two people so opposite can get together so well?
2) Have you ever seen the two of them together?

Apparently, he tried pawning off his DUPED (dual-user personality electronic disorder) to the cap'n, but it a bit of a crunch Drapier refused. Now, Woz is taking his sweet revenge with public humiliation.

Re:Moo

[Hoi Polloi]

You need physical proof. I think someone should break into Woz's home and search for a hidden stash of black turtlenecks.

Re:Parallels?

[xtracto]

couldn't help but think of the similarities between him and RMS. I couldn't decide if it was amazing how two similar people could end up going in two different directions, or if this was foreshadowing the future for RMS.

Interesting... I guess the main issue is that although they might share a similarity on the "hippiesque" attitude they are certainly different.

Anyway, I feel really sorry for Mr. Draper, there was a time during my early University years (1998) when I read a lot about the old school hacking/phreaking/cracking scene. I got amazed with them and even tried to reproduce the different circuits (boxes) built just for fun (although they did not worked in the Mexican TELMEX company... well the one with the diode to avoid a call to be charged did kind of worked =o) ...

I would sugest The Hackers Crackdown for a really nice read about those times... I remember also reading some interviews made to "Dark Avenger" (a girl made the interview, which made it more interesting)... if you do not know who D.A. was, he was one of the best virus creators back when viruses did not need a user to click "Yes, install this virus on my computer" button...

Ah the old days... to think that some guys made loads of money with movies like Hackers, Sneakers, The Wizard among others commercializing in *some* way what this guy did...

Someone should rise some funds for these guy... I always thought of him as a genius

Just leave him alone

[plopez]

That's probably what he wants. Just because he doesn't have a bazillion dollars doesn't mean he is a failure or pathetic. Just because he doesn't want to, or have the cut throat personality required to, make it in business does n't mean he is worthless. It sounds like Baker *did* have that cut-throat personality, does that make him better because he made more money.

I mean this is the WSJ, where the only thing that matters is money and once you get enough of it you are a demi-god who can do no wrong. Why do we worship the rich like this? It makes no sense.

I love this part:
"He set about preparing the meal -- obtained free from a Whole Foods worker who leaves outdated products near a dumpster at a prearranged time."

Now there's a guy who is smart, why pay for food when you can get it for free *and* keep perfectly good food from spoiling? Anyone paying retail for food is a sucker.

Nice qoute from Woz:
"But, actually, John is one of the happiest guys I know, no matter what his situation seems."

So just leave him alone.

Pff. Newbies.

[FlyingSquidStudios]

Draper is Captain Crunch. Cap'n Crunch is the guy on the cereal box.

crossed paths in the 1980s

[peter303]

I recall it was at the Mac users club at Stanford. He seemed to always be working on some project, but usually worked alone on them. Had a bit of grooming issue too, but thats not unusual in Silicon Valley.

Crunchman story

[Anonymous Coward]

I met Draper once, went 'raving' with him (he was a big club raver then), and talked him into signing my homebrew lineman's handset with 'CaptnCrunch', even though he didn't want to go by that nick anymore. So I got his autograph on something worthwhile. Back then I was patching into roadside payphones to get a dialtone to get on the internet, with a torx screwdriver I picked up free from a computer tradeshow. Figured it was time to quit when I opened one box up and black widow spider had made a little happy home in there. The highpoint of my phreaking career was what I called the 'plaid box', or adding a cordless basestation and answering machine inline with a payphone, so you could drive within range of it and make and make free phone calls from inside your car. This worked with those third party carrier payphones. I was a hacker, not a phreaker, so my only interest really was in getting a data connection on the road.

Watched him give an interview in a park to an Indie film crew, and kind of snickered to myself listening to his exploits as a hacker, because I myself at the time was sucessfully hacking ATM machines. There I was standing watching the interview, 10x a hacker, with the film crew oblivious to me but obviously wrapped up in the by gone legend of the Crunch persona.

Beware his attempts to engage you in excercise or 'straighten out your back'. My guess is his short time in prison he went gay. You've got to be predisposed for that however. If you don't want to go gay in prison you don't, nobody forces you to. I did two years in prison (and subsequently won my appeal) and had two consecutive flaming butch fags for roommates and no way in hell was I going to go gay, I hated those SOBs.

He goes to India a lot, and is not as computer illiterate and someone here claimed. He is destitute most of the time back then it seemed to me, living off of payment for 'speaking engagements' which pretty much have run out. Most of his personal hardware are Apple laptops given to him by Woz. I gave him 3 old Pentium boxes one time. He tried selling a firewall for a stint called the 'Crunchbox' I believe, coded by a guy I believe by the name of John Chen?, who did all the programing and was a hardcore fan of NetBSD for its ability to royally lock down the OS security wise.

Had a website http://webcrunchers.com/ and http://shopip.com/

The thing is, if you are good hacker, I mean, a great hacker, you never get caught. Nobody ever even knows your name. You don't advertise. You never develop any attachment to any particular nick. I never got caught. My lovely tour of prison was a freak victim of circumstance thing, I happened to be apparently in the wrong place at the time when something else was going down.

The fun thing about the internet is, you can talk to these folks online. I've talked to Clifford Stoll, and Woz via emails. Never talked to RMS in real life, but almost ran into him. I don't get around much anymore and try to avoid traveling in hacker circles, avoid Defcon, etc.

No, the cat does not "got my tongue."

[Impy the Impiuos Imp]

> frequenting the rave scene and shouting at anyone smoking anywhere near him

That's like frequenting the Playboy mansion and shouting at anyone flopping out their tits anywhere near him.

It all comes together now as to why he's broke -- he's an idiot.