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Startup Tries Watermarking Instead of DRM

Loosehead Prop writes "A U.K. startup called Streamburst has a novel idea: selling downloadable video with watermarks instead of DRM. The system works by adding a 5-second intro to each download that shows the name of the person who bought the movie along with something like a watermark: 'it's not technically a watermark in the usual sense of that term, but the encoding process does strip out a unique series of bits from the file. The missing information is a minuscule portion of the overall file that does not affect video quality, according to Bjarnason, but does allow the company to discover who purchased a particular file.' The goal is to 'make people accountable for their actions without artificially restricting those actions.'"

45 of 344 comments (clear)

  1. What's the enforcement mechanism? by flanksteak · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sounds reasonable. But then how does the copyright holder distinguish between the purchaser engaging in illegal distribution vs being the victim of theft? The article never covers that. I think I can guess how the **AA will react to any watermarked file floating around the net with Joe User's name/account reference embedded in it. They'll call a SWAT team and have Joe's house raided. No proof. Sorry, Joe, for the mess. We're on to harassing the next person we vaguely suspect of illegal distribution.

    1. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Heck, the pirate can randomly filter out a few more bits and thus fingering some other patsy instead of him/herself?

      --
      sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    2. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      OTOH, it will make the user more protective of their data in the first place- and with this watermarking scheme, it is THEIR data.

      Another business model from this could be "You TV"- upload your own bug, buy content- and it's stamped with YOUR bug and available on a website password protected as you choose for you and your friends. Eventually, the bug becomes a video file in and of itself and a route for advertising- and suddenly we'll have advertiser-supported IPTV.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    3. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by flanksteak · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm not an executive, just an..hey waiiit a minute...

    4. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by Gorm+the+DBA · · Score: 3, Insightful
      First off...it's beyond a *reasonable doubt*, not a shadow of a doubt.

      More importantly, that only applies to criminal prosecutions, not civil ones. In Civil lawsuits, you only have to prove you're 51% likely to be right. Admittedly, the amount of your judgement is lower if you're only barely correct (usually...), but still, it's not all that hard of a standard.

      In addition, good lawyers cost $150 or more per hour. Defending yourself against an RIAA action will take any lawyer at least 10 hours of time, almost certainly more if it goes to trial. And no, you don't get reimbursed if you get found to be the winner (except in certain very difficult to prove situations, which almost certainly would rarely apply here).

    5. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by rhombic · · Score: 4, Insightful
      They have to prove it "beyond a shadow of a doubt" in a court of law.


      Nope, not at all, at least in the US. The **AA's are filing civil suits, where the standard is "preponderance of evidence", i.e. the jury thinks probably, yeah, the defendant did wrong the plaintiff. BTW, in the US at least it's "beyond a reasonable doubt", and that standard only applies to criminal cases.

      --
      1984 was supposed to be a warning, not an instruction manual.
    6. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by WindBourne · · Score: 3, Interesting

      First you have to know where to filter. As it is, the company should be able to spread the information across a number of frames and still not have it be seen. Interestingly, they can even do it up right so that the various transcoders will still show important info. Overall this is a pretty good idea.

      As to the theft vs. giving it away, well, there are some easy answers to this. Once a person is a "person of interest", then allow them to keep going, but track them closely. Most ppl will be found to give away the film. It is when it hits the net and is spread wildly, that the issues come in. I would guess that fewer than 1% of all film/music owners are at the core of thefts.

      This is overall a win/win.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    7. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by soft_guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sounds reasonable. But then how does the copyright holder distinguish between the purchaser engaging in illegal distribution vs being the victim of theft?

      Since you're comparing this to theft, let's compare with what happens when it turns out some physical property you bought was actually stolen. You don't get to keep it -- you're not a "victim." You have to give it back. Translating back to this case, they'd probably ask/require you to delete your copies.

      Of course, comparing copyright violation to theft isn't legally valid, so the analogy doesn't help much.

      You have it backwards. In this case, you'd be in trouble for having your property stolen (i.e. being the true victim), not from receiving stolen property which is what you are talking about. With watermarking there is no difference between purposely uploading your music to Kazaa and having it stolen by a hacker who uploads it to Kazaa.

      Basically the media companies would be asking people to treat their files as if they were national secrets which is too burdensome. They are NOT being marketed as state secrets - they are being marketed as a replacement for music CDs. If you leave music CDs on the seat of your car and a thief breaks your window and steals them, you are a victim. Under this scheme if the thief breaks your car window and steals your iPod (and shares your music files), you are a criminal. Big difference.
      --
      Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
    8. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by 91degrees · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But then how does the copyright holder distinguish between the purchaser engaging in illegal distribution vs being the victim of theft?

      They can't.

      But if you happen to be the victim of "theft" a lot of times, then they could reasonably start asking questions.

    9. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by skiingyac · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Only if the pirate has access to the reference file. Without that, he's SOL. Or just find 2 bought copies, do a diff, and you've found the bits. Flip some of them.

      Better yet, steal a credit card number, "buy" a copy, and some other guy gets blamed for it.
    10. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by Hitch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      here's the thing, though - *why* would you do this?
      I mean, I understand the "I need to break the copy protection scheme to use my media!" mentality we all have - because this *isn't* "copy protection". it's "copy indication". You can still do whatever you want with it.
      hell, you can still even share it with your friends!
      just don't put it on a p2p share.
      rip the audio for an mp3? go for it.
      recode it for your ipod? sure.
      want to ditch your ipod and get some other media player? you're able to without having to jump through hoops.
      none of that is restricted.
      this is exactly the kind of copyright "protection" we've been begging for - so why WOULD you immediately try to break it?
      hell, even better is they only have to store a hash of my watermark on file to re-send me the video as often as I want it wherever I want it, and it's up to me not to abuse it. this is a *good thing*

      --
      You see, without that little doohicky, the universe stops.
      http://propheteer.org
    11. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by Em+Adespoton · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Easy... they take the extra step and investigate. These companies aren't concerned about one file leaking... what they're looking for is browsing Kazaa, and finding that over a 3-month period, 80% of the movies released were purchased by a single person. Then they have reasonable proof to get a warrant and have the police investigate that person. If it turns out the person's computer is part of a bot net, they continue on to figure out who is controlling THAT. Otherwise, they try to prove the person has been deliberately broadcasting their IP.

      But this is all beside the point. The watermarking in and of itself will be enough of a deterrent for most people, which is what they're really after. The watermarking will also help the authorities to more comprehensively understand exactly what goes on with filesharing (how many original copies are being shared? How far is the reach? What is the lifecycle of a file? etc.).

      I, for one, think it's a great idea. Nobody's actions are being restricted; just a bit more information is being made freely available, as it wants to be. We just have to make sure to combat the "it has his name on it so he must have distributed it" reflex.

    12. Re:What's the enforcement mechanism? by Castar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You can't really share it with your friends. Or, you can, but you'd better trust them a lot. And anyone else that might use their computer. Or, for that matter, that might use your computer. And you'd better make sure you wipe your drives clean before throwing them out, and that you don't lose the burned DVD, and...

      I think this sort of scheme has more potential to go drastically wrong for some innocent person than any other sort of DRM. All it takes is one person you share with (or yourself, for that matter) to be careless, and your name is plastered all over the internet as a pirate, and you have a hell of a time convincing a jury otherwise.

      --
      I yearn for you tragically. A. T. Tappman, Chaplain, U.S. Army.
  2. So the pirate has to buy three copies now ... by 140Mandak262Jamuna · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Then hex diff it, find the missing bits add them, and then.... profit!

    --
    sed -e 's/Chuck Norris/Rajnikant/g' joke > fact
    1. Re:So the pirate has to buy three copies now ... by Goaway · · Score: 3, Insightful

      1 2 3 4 5 6 7
      o o o o . . .
      o o . o o . .
      o o . . o o .
      o . . o o o .
      . . o o o o .
      That's five different sets of seven bits, with three bits missing in each. That's well over n-1. Can you reconstruct the original now?

  3. re-encode the movie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Solution: re-encode the movie, I prefer 2 pass xvid

    Could the missing bits affect the movie and be detectable?

    1. Re:re-encode the movie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Have you tried removing an industrial strength watermark (e.g. DigiMarc)? I tested various watermarks in a course project (Steganography) and it's not so trivial. A large number of watermarks were resistant to encoding, cropping, affine transformations, rotations, etc.

      The only way I could successfully remove the watermark without making the image unusable was by diff'ing the original with the watermarked. But where are you going to get the original?

    2. Re:re-encode the movie by nblender · · Score: 5, Funny
      The bits they change are subtle and don't affect the overall plot of the movie. So, for example, everyone who downloads a copy of the movie gets Lindsey Lohan replaced with another actor (say, Danny Devito) in every scene in which she appears. This change, while sublime, is preserved through re-encoding.

      Quite clever, really.

  4. Compression? by P(0)(!P(k)+P(k+1)) · · Score: 3, Interesting

    From TFA:

    The missing information is a minuscule portion of the overall file that does not affect video quality, according to Bjarnason, but does allow the company to discover who purchased a particular file.

    I'll assume the people working on Streamburst are clever; but I wonder how susceptible the ghost-stream is to translation and recompression: whether it's possible to corrupt the signature-stream while retaining watchable quality.

  5. Still doesn't solve the real problems by sokoban · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So, people who pay for a movie from these guys won't be able to share it via Kazaa or bittorrent or whatever is popular right now. I don't think that many people who pay to download a movie really do so with the intent of putting it on a filesharing network. I mean, why the hell would you do that? The people I know who do the whole illegal filesharing thing, don't pay for media they can get for free, and the people I know who buy digital download media, don't use illegal filesharing sites. Buying something legally kinda defeats the purpose of using a filesharing site, amirite?

    --
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  6. I see this "cracked" in five seconds by A+beautiful+mind · · Score: 4, Informative
    it's not technically a watermark in the usual sense of that term, but the encoding process does strip out a unique series of bits from the file. The missing information is a minuscule portion of the overall file
    The warez guys will do what every torrent user does, build the file they want from more sources. They will strip all conflicting bits from the file and substitute the missing ones. Yeah, this does make it so that they need two or more sources, but it's certainly doable.
    --
    It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
    Be yourself no matter what they say
  7. Excellent by mustafap · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This sounds perfect. As they say, it makes *me* responsible for the file; I can make millions of copies as backup. Of course I wont give it away, to do so is at my own risk.

    The authentication will be a problem of course; it means I will not be able to make an anonymous purchase on the web - something that people are quite reasonably concerned about being able to do. What will it be signed with? My DNA? What about identity theft?

    A heck, I give up. I was wrong. It's another stupid idea.

    --
    Open Source Drum Kit, LPLC deve board - mjhdesigns.com
  8. Re:Nothing major by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    ssand,

    Did you read even the summary? Removing the beginning does not remove the unique signature formed by bit removal.

    Of course bit removal or any sort of water mark can also be mucked with.

    Still, this would be more user friendly than "hard" DRM.

  9. They probably thought of that.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Real pirates probably already have the originals anyway.

    Besides, this appears aimed more to stop casual file swapping by scaring the non-tech-savvy than it is at real pirates.

  10. They already do this in theaters by PCM2 · · Score: 3, Informative

    In principle, I like this idea. I don't really see a problem with it.

    However, they already do something similar in theaters. Every so often in theatrical movies you will notice a weird pattern of "cigarette burns" that appears for a brief moment. (Yes, to my eyes at least, they are visible and sort of distracting.) The pattern is different for each copy of the film shipped. The idea is that, if someone sneaks into a movie theater and makes a cam of a first-run movie, the producers of the movie can analyze the video and figure out which theater it came from. That helps them put more pressure on theater owners to enforce bans on video cameras, etc.

    But does it seem like there are fewer cam bootlegs out there since they started doing this? They started it maybe five years ago.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
    1. Re:They already do this in theaters by KokorHekkus · · Score: 3, Interesting
      n principle, I like this idea. I don't really see a problem with it.
      If someone else gets access to that movie and spreads it, should you be held liable? You have X and someone manages to lay their hands on it and makes copies. If X is a DVD movie you wouldn't be liable (unless you helped the person in some way. But if X is a downloaded movie and the watermarking is to be any useful you must be liable... otherwise you can just say "uuuuh, somebody stole it from my computer... I didn't do nothing... you have to show I did it".
    2. Re:They already do this in theaters by karmatic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not those. These. (Look in the upper middle of the screen).

      Most people don't seem to see them, and they typically try to make it after a bright flash (which makes them a little less visibile). Personally, they drive me nuts, but so do single projector DLPs.

  11. Re:Digital Fingerprinting? by bilbravo · · Score: 3, Informative

    The "watermark" is throughout the video. The first five seconds is just a "header" if you will, for the naked eye to see. The watermark however, could not be removed so easily.

  12. Not To Bad by endianx · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I suspect this would be fairly easy to circumvent, but I love the idea!

    I have always thought that piracy should be solved through law enforcement, not technology. Much like traffic law enforcement.

    DRM is the equivalent to putting a 70 mph speed cap on all cars. This watermarking is sort of like requiring cars to have a license plate.

    If they can find a way to make this work I'd be overjoyed.

  13. Ohhhhh... by sterno · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You thought this was something intended to defeat deliberate large scale pirates? Why would you think that? I mean none of the DRM crap stops them either, so why should this? :)

    --
    This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
    1. Re:Ohhhhh... by ebyrob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well basically. It sounds like this isn't intended to help figure out where illegal/unofficial distributions come from. Rather to prove legitimate rights to a particular bit of content.

      Basically if the RIAA says "we found copies of Titanic and Spiceworld in your online data store on June 15", you can come back and show them your official copy bought on May 12 so they'll leave you alone. Assuming forgeries are difficult, this might allow technologies like managed online media storage to get off the ground without the legalities dragging it down. Basically this gives you a portfolio of "legally registered" works that another entity can help you manage without imposing additional restrictions on what you can do with the content.

      DRM kind of does this, but it locks up the portfolio and leaves someone besides the end-user with the keys. Under a scheme like this, you're less fencing in your property, and more just making an outline that says where the property boundaries are...

    2. Re:Ohhhhh... by nine-times · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I actually think this is just about right in terms of copy protection. You're right, really professional pirates won't be stopped, but they never will be. However, it discourages individuals from posting their purchased copy online.

      So long as you don't have any moral issues with piracy, anyone can buy a CD, rip it, and put it online. It's easy, doesn't require any expertise, and loads of people do it. That's part of the reason why there's an absolute flood of music online. However, if you knew that every copy online could be traced back to the first guy who purchased it, far fewer people would do it.

      So, if you accept that hard-core professional pirates just can't be stopped, and your goal is to discourage casual piracy without preventing people from doing valid things, watermarking is a good solution.

    3. Re:Ohhhhh... by Omestes · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Quick correction, MPAA, not the RIAA. It is easy to confuse your media giant defenders of.. er... themselves, I know.

      I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with this, though. I do like it better than nasty DRM, but it seems... Underdone, and perhaps still a step in the wrong direction. I think the various **AAs should learn that the problem isn't piracy, but that piracy is the symptom of a larger underlying problem, that their business model is outdated and self-defeating (may I add draconian?), and their prices are unfair.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    4. Re:Ohhhhh... by OglinTatas · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Indeed. This is a good thing because it is not there to prevent deliberate piracy, it is there to treat paying customers decently. That seems to have fallen out of favor, so I say bravo to them.

    5. Re:Ohhhhh... by yali · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This will make an interesting comparison to iTunes... iTunes sells music online with DRM that can, in principle, be defeated (or 1 person could buy an un-DRMed CD and upload it to the rest of the world). But by putting just enough hassle in front of the typical consumer, combined with pricing that is generally perceived as reasonable, iTunes has managed to be quite successful. Consumers could engage in piracy, but most choose not to.

      What's interesting about identity watermarking is that instead of using a digital control like iTunes, they're using a more social one -- making people feel accountable. (As was pointed out, it's unclear yet whether people will actually be held accountable.) If that is effective, critics of the **AAs could make a more effective argument that DRM, which restricts legitimate fair use, is not necessary.

    6. Re:Ohhhhh... by OglinTatas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What do you do in any instance of identity theft? You've got a big mess to clear up largely on your own. That doesn't stop people from having credit cards, cell phones or conducting financial transactions over the phone or online. Are those products and services a bad thing? No. Do people not use them because of the risk of ID theft? No. Even if you had no credit card, cell phone, computer, or bank account, if you have a birth certificate you are at risk for identity theft.

      So is the risk that someone would hack into your computer reason not to use a service like this, which has definite benefit if you were in the market for downloading videos? No. People who hack into your computer can fuck up your life a lot worse than just stealing your videos.

    7. Re:Ohhhhh... by paulatz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But since this is a luxury good,

      I won't say that music and movies are luxuries. I agree that HDTV and 5.2 surround are luxuries, stupid ones to be fair. But visual and audio arts are a primary need for people. Humans play music and drama when they don't have enough food to eat, they built instruments and wore play dresses before writing was developed. You can't honestly say that simple entertainment is a luxury and, since we don't have a lifestyle that allow us to gather every evening around the fire to sing and play, listening to music and watching a movie is a real need for us, not as important as eating and having sex but not much less either.

      --
      this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
    8. Re:Ohhhhh... by LunaticTippy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      All it'd take for your file to be shared is:

      1 evil friend
      1 flash drive
      1 minute alone with your computer

      --
      Man, you really need that seminar!
  14. See also this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    http://www.broadcastpapers.com/whitepapers/Content %20Technology-05-2006-046-048.pdf

    The Thompson system for watermarking video and there's also a Fraunhofer Institute system:

    http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,124676-page,1/ar ticle.html

    These are all good ideas IMHO. As long as

    1. The watermark isn't easy to remove
    2. There is uncertainty as to whether the mark is removed
    3. It isn't used to apply DRM

    1 is obvious, 2 is there because the pirate has to be uncertain if their copy still has the idea, and 3. because the advantages of the system over DRM are lost if they use it for DRM!

    Imagine you can freely buy and use the media you use however you like, but if it shows up on p2p, the ID can be pulled and traced back to you.

    Since the DRM doesn't work, (not a single piece of media has successfully been locked up by DRM yet, a 100% failure rate). And since the DRM is already so restrictive that it puts off genuine sales, and is causing competition problems as inter operation is non existent. Then watermarking scheme will take over.

    This one, I'm not so keen on, since the watermark is too easy to remove compared to the more mathematical approaches. The key point of any watermark approach is the mark must be difficult to remove and there must be uncertainty that the mark has been successfully removed.

    My 2 cents.

  15. Blockbuster Watermark by 93,000 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I see a future with millions of movie files on the P2P networks that are watermarked "Blockbuster Video".

  16. Simple work around by king-manic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    1-Buy 2 or more files from them
    2-do a bit comparison
    3-modify a copy to reflect a random profile of all removed info

    this would make any compairson hard.

    --
    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
  17. I had a similar idea by kasperd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    At some point I did a scetch of a somewhat similar idea in some net forum. Though I would not remove bits, rather I'd do an encoding with slightly increased quality in a few random places. (That way I would hope to prevent people bitching about reduced quality). And how much the watermarking costs in terms of extra space could be computed exactly. I haven't done any calculations on the extra space, but I would expect a few KB for a full movie.

    To explain what my idea was I'll first give a short reminder of how jpeg works. Blocks of image data are transformed using something based on fourier transformations. The resulting coefficients are then rounded to different scales. For high frequency components a scale with larger steps can be used as errors in these components are not easilly noticed. There is a table of standard steps to be used for each combination of horisontal and vertical frequency. (I left out the part about how to handle colour components, which is not relevant for the following idea).

    Making a minor change to one of the step sizes is not going to cause a major difference in the size of the compression or the quality. By picking some of the entries at random and reducing the step size you are going to increase the quality of random parts of the picture. Now what I want to do is to make a redundant encoding of a signature on the text from the watermark and use those bits to choose places to increase the quality. The signed text itself is included in the begining of the file.

    First of all removing the signature would means you couldn't compute the step sizes, and thus you couldn't correctly decode the file. And if the file was reencoded, you might still be able to extract the watermark by comparing with the original uncompressed movie. You would just have to find enough of the places where quality was increased. (And enough is a lot less than all of them).

    The signature used in the encoding should be performed using the buyer's private key. In addition to this, I would sign the entire encoded movie using the seller's private key to be able to detect if a file is corrupted (as a service for the users). The part about the user signing something could be replaced with just using a hash of the text, but that might weaken the proof of origin of a particular movie a bit.

    Now all of this could be combined with features to prevent users from accidentially losing a copy to a cracker/pirate. Since this is not intended to prevent users from intentionally copying the file, it could be a lot better and less intrusive than DRM.

    --

    Do you care about the security of your wireless mouse?
  18. Like door locks... by sterno · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The truth is anybody can break into your house at anytime. They don't because there's some risk, however slight, that somebody will notice and they'll get caught. Same logic here. It's not going to prevent somebody from pirating but it will discourage the lesser crimes.

    --
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  19. Content proveiders don't just want to stop piracy by maughanahan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's a nice idea, but the content providers will never go for it. They want to use DRM to limit fair use so they can sell you the same content in different formats. They can make themselves sound very self-righteous banging on about preventing piracy, but they are at least as interested (if not much more so) in preventing our fair use.

  20. Not buying it. by Kadin2048 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd really like to believe this, but I just can't.

    Whether or not people are "fundamentally" good or evil isn't an argument worth having, in a way, because it's impossible (or nearly so) to take a person completely out of their environment and away from the threat or fear of consequences. However, I suspect that if you gave the 'average Joe' a Ring of Gyges, that he wouldn't help himself to the contents of the local bank/liquor-store/etc. (at least until the novelty of being able to possess anything wore off).

    While you, in fact, may be so constrained by morality -- and if that is the case, I salute you -- but to assume that most people are, seems a bit of a stretch. Most people don't commit crimes, because the perceived risk/reward doesn't work out in their favor. I could go out tonight and hold up the 7-11 on the corner, but I'm not going to; the few hundred bucks it might gain me (at best) wouldn't be worth the strong possibility of spending the next decade or so in prison. However, to someone who was poorer, or strung out on crack, that equation might come out differently; the possibility of a small amount of cash might be more than enough to make the risk worthwhile.

    We can argue about the fundamental nature of humanity all day -- after all, if it was good enough a subject for Plato, it's good enough for me -- but in the end, what matters is whether your philosophy produces a model that predicts how people actually act, rather than how they wish they acted, or how they justify their own actions to themselves. The risk/reward model does this fairly well, at least with economic and property crimes, and therefore seems far more likely.

    --
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