Debian Gets Win32 Installer

An anonymous reader writes "Debian hacker Robert Millan has just announced the availability of a Debian-Installer Loader for win32. The program, inspired by Ubuntu's similar project, features 64-bit CPU auto-detection, download of linux/initrd netboot images, and chainloading into Debian-Installer via grub4dos. The frontend site goodbye-microsoft.com/ has been set up for advocacy purposes. Here are some screenshots."

Comments

Almost Too Easy?

[P(0)(!P(k) P(k 1))]

The ease with which someone could blow away their Windows install (and apposite data) is hilarious, actually; the frontpage is slick, and the Debian logo has a nice, clean svg -> png feel.

The one thing I always felt FOSS had going for it were pious, minimalist interfaces;* goodbye-microsoft.com is no exception.

_____________
* And dangerous ones, like fdisk.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[greginterrupted]

Well, it doesn't look like new users can "blow away their windows install." I read the site that was linked, and although it doesn't describe the actual process or show screenshots of terminals, it does make a huge point of (and so does the ubuntu link) showing large messages clearly stating that your hard drive will NOT be formatted.

I was kind of disappointed though, because without reading the documents on the site, the average user would not know what the installer is actually doing. They show a screen of the Windows XP bootloader, the one we are familiar with that lets you boot into Windows or Win with safe mode. It's the bootloader that you get when you hit F8 during startup. However, now it's got a "Ubuntu operating system" listed under "Windows XP professional." How did that get there? I'm not sure. The screenshot that precluded the bootloader screenshot only showed a message asking the user if he/she wanted to reboot. It's the ?????? step between steal underpants and profit.

I'm actually pretty happy with my windows xp pro install, and have been so for about three years. I'm not going to switch back over to any other OS anytime soon, even after owning a mac for six months. The point of this comment is to make sure that people know that users will NOT BE FORMATTING THEIR HARD DRIVES by using the installer. I believe they're only modifying the bootloader and installing a small linux on the ntfs or fat32 drive right alongside winxp or 2k. I could easily be wrong, but the images and the guide on the site didn't do anything to explain the process so it's all speculation.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[NekoXP]

It's a loop-mounted ext3 "hard file" like you get in an emulator.

The process is, basically - GRUB loads a kernel+initrd from the Windows filesystem. Kernel loads, mounts / from the initrd, mounts the NTFS or FAT filesystem from the Windows box, and finds the hardfile and initrd - then it swivels root to use the image via the loopback filesystem (so you can mount files as disks).

Not sure how this bodes for expandability of the disk image though. I guess the idea is the Ubuntu install just works, and you can put the data back onto your Windows disk..?

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[heroofhyr]

If Linux evangelists want people to move to a Linux OS then you don't want a MS Windows installer you really want a proper Linux installer other wise you are just saying that Linux is a poor cousin to MS Windows and I can assure you that the majority of potential users who do this will eventually go back to MS Windows and usually with a bad feeling to Linux.

I disagree and think this is good news. My father-in-law only uses his computer for his mail, his music, and for the various PCB/schematic applications he needs. I've attempted to convince him numerous times to use something other than Windows, mainly because his computer has such limited resources and the software he uses is nothing that isn't available freely and just as high-quality in the FLOSS universe. It also runs like a tortoise with XP Pro. He seems nervous about trying something he's unfamiliar with, so I finally got an Ubuntu LiveCD from Ship-It. As anyone who has tried this service knows, it can be quite awhile before it arrives. The point of the CD is for him to try it out and see how it is without actually changing anything in his hard drive. The reason I had to get a CD rather than just download/burn it is because these days I'm only burning to DVD-Rs and a) I don't feel like buying a single blank CD and b) he has no DVD drive. Had I known about this installer I would've just pointed him to it and saved myself a lot of time.
While I agree that a high-quality installer is a worthwhile goal (I remember when I first installed FreeBSD back in 1999 or so and it was so bare-bones that I had no idea what the hell I was doing for about 90% of the installation) and things are moving in that direction, there are a lot of people who lack the hardware to burn LiveCDs, aren't going to take the risk of paying for one for an OS they're just mildly curious in and have never used, and/or have no knowledge of configuring their operating system. These people also probably have an OEM copy of Windows and don't know how to use anything else. Making the act of trying something new as simple as running a program using the Windows Installer dialogs they're used to is, to me, a good idea, and rather reminiscient of the old BeOS 5 Personal Edition. Whether anyone switches or not, it's a safe way for them to check it out.

In fact dual booting is not a real solution either because users will eventually fall back to MS Windows because it is too easy to backslide. It is very important if you are trying to convince friends that if they are serious they must switch to a Linux only PC although let them play with a few distros before that and they need to get educated in basic security and System Admin practices.

That's a rather harsh suggestion. Unless it's an issue of HD space, I wouldn't ever recommend to a newbie that they toss Windows overboard completely and forego dual-booting. When I first started out in the non-Windows/DOS world it was around early 1998, and one of the first problems I came across was getting PPP working. If I hadn't had the foresight to dual-boot, what would you have suggested I do to find an answer to how to set it up? I certainly couldn't go online to find help--after all going online was the problem. So how did I fix it? I booted into Windows, found some websites with example scripts, printed them out, and booted back. At the time I wasn't aware of Lynx so I had to do the same thing (reboot, print out, reboot) to get XF86 configured and running. If Windows is too easy to backslide towards, that in itself speaks volumes about the learning curve and potential for frustration of non-Windows systems to people weaned on it. I don't know too many people who buy a Mac, try it for an hour, and take it back to the store (e.g. backslide) because it's too different, their menus aren't in the same place, common system applications have different names, etc. If someone doesn't like Linux, BSD, or whatever, that's their business. There may be a stupid reason for it, and one can try and correct that misinformed

the ultimate answer

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, it DOES run linux

Goodbye

[Anonymous Coward]

goodbye-webserver.com

IE exploit?

[Qwell]

What would be funny, is if somebody managed to automate this, and used an IE exploit to force it to run.

Disclaimer: I cannot be held responsible if somebody actually does this.

Re:IE exploit?

[Joebert]

Funny maybe, but it would kill PR for Debian.
If there's one thing people hate more than holes in Windows, it's the software that exploits thoose holes.

Re:IE exploit?

[Oopsz]

you mean tuxissa?

Re:IE exploit?

[the_womble]

Most people would probably think "Windows looks a bit different after that update".

I told a neighbour recently that I did not use Windows. The reply was "What do use instead? Excel?"

Most people do not know what a PC is, or that it is a switchable component.

Re:questions

[Coryoth]

anyone know if this does:
1) resizes the windows partition so you can still access it from debian?
2) scans windows for your settings and replicates similar ones in debian?
Anything else, and why not just use the damn CD?

I was curious about this too. The site itself doesn't carry much information, but the related Ubuntu project has more detail. The idea is that the linux disk image gets saved as a file (in C:\ubuntu apparently) which gets loopmounted and booted into via grub4dos. Thus Windows gets to stay exactly as it is, and there isn't even any disk repartitioning done - linux just sits as a disk image file on the C:\ drive. The Ubuntu project also talk about gleaning some info from the Windows registry for installation - though it only mentions locale and timezone data (presumably more can be managed).

It is, at least, quite different from a CD install in that your Windows install (presuming this works the same as the Ubuntu version) remains untouched (aside from getting a new directory and a couple of extra files) with no risk of data loss via repartioning etc. Certainly an interesting idea.

Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[exley]

From the announcement:

This has a few interesting applications:
...
- Migrating to Debian for users who have no idea how to burn an ISO and/or how to configure their BIOS for CD boot.

Uhhhh, if someone doesn't know how to burn an ISO or tinker with their BIOS, is this installer really something they should be screwing around with?

Re:What would the Slashdot position be...

[mark-t]

I'm not sure that'd be so funny... people would actually blame linux for it, you know. The PR for debian would probably tank. Even, as I mentioned elsewhere, if a windows fanboy might do this with that very agenda in mind, I strongly suspect the outcome would be the same, regardless of who did it.

Re:"Responsability"

[chris_sawtell]

Your patch would, I'm sure be very welcome.

You have sent it in havn't you?

Some Opperationz are Dangerous!

[twitter]

Uhhhh, if someone doesn't know how to burn an ISO or tinker with their BIOS, is this installer really something they should be screwing around with?

I understand that it's dangerous to "screw around" with your computer when it's running Windows, but I did not know that writing a file was one of those dangerous things now.

You would be amazed at how difficult some vendors make it to do what should be very easy. Though burning an ISO image should be the easiest thing a program could do with a blank CD, most burning programs either lack the option or hide it. Telling your computer what device to boot off should also be easy, but the larger vendors don't display the keystroke required to get into the BIOS configuration utility. What should take five minutes can easily take hours and could take a trip to the store to buy burning software. People are usually put off but these types of guessing game, especially when the results are uncertain.

All of it backfires eventually. A user who's insulted enough will do something about it. Sooner or later, they all learn.

Well you have to install WINE...

[EmbeddedJanitor]

... oh, wait....

Just in time!

[The MAZZTer]

For the release of Vista in two days, which will make this installer break! Vista no longer uses boot.ini or the NTLDR loader.

In fact, I'm using the Vista RC2 bootloader to boot Windows XP. The Debian installer would fail horribly because the boot process would not be altered atall.

Re:questions

[Incidence]

If the installers are able to create a functional dual boot system without affecting Windows then this could be really good for Linux adoption, assuming my situation is even semi-common outside my group of friends.

I've worked with live-CD's in the past and would like to install Linux, but the problem has always been the threat of lost data and system downtime getting the OS to work. Between school and my job I can't afford to be without a functional computer for any real length of time, so even the small chance of something going wrong and the natural learning curve of a new OS have made switching impossible. If this option is able to do what Ubuntu plans then switching would be a very easy decision.

A few hours and an over-night download giving a fully functional Windows OS for work and school and a Linux OS for learning the system would be just what I've wanted.

Re:questions

[scum-e-bag]

I mean, you're running Windows and you paid for the right to use them... RIGHT? RIGHT? ;)

No. You paid Microsoft to tell you how to use them.

Re:questions

[joey]

The current implementation for Debian is different than what Ubuntu is working on. goodbye-windows.com just downloads the two files (kernel, initrd) that let the completely standard Debian installer boot, installs a grub bootloader and uses it to convince windows to boot linux. Thereafter it's identical to what would happen if you netboot the Debian Installer.

d-i does allow optional resizing of the windows partition and setting up a dual-boot system. It does not scan windows for settings or the like.

Oh BTW, while it's slashdotted, you can see it at http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/f592f4a8f9a66105d 885ff7a49228380/index.html

Re:Well that didn't work

[the donner party]

That's nothing! When I tried it, everything went fine, but when I first booted linux, it burned down my house, killed my dog and ran away with my wife! They really have to fix problems like that if they want non-technical users trying out this linux thingy.

Re:http://goodbye-microsoft.com

[Zontar The Mindless]

I think this should be

http://goodbye-server.com/

Damn! That one's slashdotted, too!

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[skinfitz]

Microsoft do provide a program to burn ISO images - it's in the Windows Server 2003 Resource Kit and it's called 'cdburn.exe'.

WHY they can't simply distribute a mission critical tool like this along with the OS I have no idea.

Worms

[skinfitz]

I am loving this 'click here to install Linux' trend - I am wondering how long it is going to be before we see a worm exploiting this to install Linux on vulnerable machines.

All it would take is a silent installer with a built in bit torrent client to download the files and an XP theme for Gnome or KDE.

They could even advertise - don't like Windows? Want Linux? No problem - just plug your Windows machine into the net, turn off your firewall and go out for a few hours.

goodbye-microsoft.com

[massysett]

I think it's better to promote Linux because of what it does well, rather than promoting Linux by saying MS is no good.

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[Curtman]

Works fine for me - you do have the correct Service Pack one, right? There's different ones for SP1 and SP2.

That's the problem with Windows. Until they get that stuff sorted, it will never be ready for the desktop.

The front-end site is really terrible

[robosmurf]

The windows based installer is an interesting idea, and the Ubuntu version looks pretty good.

However, the goodbye-microsoft.com front end site is a complete disaster.

It just contains a link to an executable file. The 'More details about it link' says NOTHING about what it does. It doesn't say what it will install, what it is for, or what it will do to your existing OS.

I really hope that few people would be stupid enough to run the executable. Getting people to run random files from sites with names that suggest that they will trash your OS is not something to be encouraged.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[The Spoonman]

some DVD/CD burner program (believe it or not, WindowsXP does *not* do this out of the box!)

I forget the current Slashdot stance: do we want Windows to do everything out of the box, or do we want to chastise them for doing anything out of the box because that drives away competition? I mean, if they're going to be chastised for including a web browser (an absolute essential for everyone these days), but then complain that they don't include burning software (still only needed by a subset of everyone) isn't that a little hypocritical? If they did include burning software, wouldn't that drive Roxio and Nero out of business like IE did Netscape?