Debian Gets Win32 Installer

An anonymous reader writes "Debian hacker Robert Millan has just announced the availability of a Debian-Installer Loader for win32. The program, inspired by Ubuntu's similar project, features 64-bit CPU auto-detection, download of linux/initrd netboot images, and chainloading into Debian-Installer via grub4dos. The frontend site goodbye-microsoft.com/ has been set up for advocacy purposes. Here are some screenshots."

Comments

Almost Too Easy?

[P(0)(!P(k) P(k 1))]

The ease with which someone could blow away their Windows install (and apposite data) is hilarious, actually; the frontpage is slick, and the Debian logo has a nice, clean svg -> png feel.

The one thing I always felt FOSS had going for it were pious, minimalist interfaces;* goodbye-microsoft.com is no exception.

_____________
* And dangerous ones, like fdisk.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[greginterrupted]

Well, it doesn't look like new users can "blow away their windows install." I read the site that was linked, and although it doesn't describe the actual process or show screenshots of terminals, it does make a huge point of (and so does the ubuntu link) showing large messages clearly stating that your hard drive will NOT be formatted.

I was kind of disappointed though, because without reading the documents on the site, the average user would not know what the installer is actually doing. They show a screen of the Windows XP bootloader, the one we are familiar with that lets you boot into Windows or Win with safe mode. It's the bootloader that you get when you hit F8 during startup. However, now it's got a "Ubuntu operating system" listed under "Windows XP professional." How did that get there? I'm not sure. The screenshot that precluded the bootloader screenshot only showed a message asking the user if he/she wanted to reboot. It's the ?????? step between steal underpants and profit.

I'm actually pretty happy with my windows xp pro install, and have been so for about three years. I'm not going to switch back over to any other OS anytime soon, even after owning a mac for six months. The point of this comment is to make sure that people know that users will NOT BE FORMATTING THEIR HARD DRIVES by using the installer. I believe they're only modifying the bootloader and installing a small linux on the ntfs or fat32 drive right alongside winxp or 2k. I could easily be wrong, but the images and the guide on the site didn't do anything to explain the process so it's all speculation.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[NekoXP]

It's a loop-mounted ext3 "hard file" like you get in an emulator.

The process is, basically - GRUB loads a kernel+initrd from the Windows filesystem. Kernel loads, mounts / from the initrd, mounts the NTFS or FAT filesystem from the Windows box, and finds the hardfile and initrd - then it swivels root to use the image via the loopback filesystem (so you can mount files as disks).

Not sure how this bodes for expandability of the disk image though. I guess the idea is the Ubuntu install just works, and you can put the data back onto your Windows disk..?

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[rapidweather]

I do recommend using a livecd linux to see how it goes. Detecting your hardware, coming up with a decent "X", sound, network, and so forth.
Installing linux to the hard drive is not a safe option for those who do not know how to do this, here I recommend trying it on a spare machine. Spare machines are hard to come up with, since XP, and now Vista are more or less married to the machine. Who would want to experiment with your nicely set up XP box?
I tried FC6 dual boot with XP and had to give up, took hours to restore XP, since I did hose the ntldr. Did use my livecd linux to look around in the filesystem and see what I needed to do with the Dell restore CD.
On my older PC's I do use Windows 98, or preferrably MSDOS 6.21 to do a poor man's install of my live cd linux with some loadlin batch files, and a MSDOS menu to select.
On boxes with small monitors, I have an additional choice, 800x600, instead of 1024x768. I use QTParted to partition the drive, and usually put the main filesystem knoppix folder in a 1 GB partition, have a swap partition, and put a 1 GB "persistent home directory" image in the Windows or DOS partition.
So, with XP, or Vista, I would just run the livecd linux with the "toram" knoppix cheatcode boot option, that would work well on boxes with a GB of RAM.
I notice in today's paper, Office Depot and others have tons of new Vista laptops and desktops for sale, in their flyer. A lot have only 512 MB of RAM, that might result in a "slow" Vista, I suppose.

-- Rapidweather

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[makomk]

Older versions of Mandrake Linux used to have a somewhat similar feature - you ran a Windows program, and it created files to use for the Linux filesystem and swap, added an autoexec.bat menu to boot Linux from, then used a DOS program called (IIRC) something like lin4win to boot into Linux and fire up the install CD.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[makomk]

Ah, sorry. The program used to boot Linux was loadlin. I think lin4win may have been Mandrake's name for the scheme.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[heroofhyr]

If Linux evangelists want people to move to a Linux OS then you don't want a MS Windows installer you really want a proper Linux installer other wise you are just saying that Linux is a poor cousin to MS Windows and I can assure you that the majority of potential users who do this will eventually go back to MS Windows and usually with a bad feeling to Linux.

I disagree and think this is good news. My father-in-law only uses his computer for his mail, his music, and for the various PCB/schematic applications he needs. I've attempted to convince him numerous times to use something other than Windows, mainly because his computer has such limited resources and the software he uses is nothing that isn't available freely and just as high-quality in the FLOSS universe. It also runs like a tortoise with XP Pro. He seems nervous about trying something he's unfamiliar with, so I finally got an Ubuntu LiveCD from Ship-It. As anyone who has tried this service knows, it can be quite awhile before it arrives. The point of the CD is for him to try it out and see how it is without actually changing anything in his hard drive. The reason I had to get a CD rather than just download/burn it is because these days I'm only burning to DVD-Rs and a) I don't feel like buying a single blank CD and b) he has no DVD drive. Had I known about this installer I would've just pointed him to it and saved myself a lot of time.
While I agree that a high-quality installer is a worthwhile goal (I remember when I first installed FreeBSD back in 1999 or so and it was so bare-bones that I had no idea what the hell I was doing for about 90% of the installation) and things are moving in that direction, there are a lot of people who lack the hardware to burn LiveCDs, aren't going to take the risk of paying for one for an OS they're just mildly curious in and have never used, and/or have no knowledge of configuring their operating system. These people also probably have an OEM copy of Windows and don't know how to use anything else. Making the act of trying something new as simple as running a program using the Windows Installer dialogs they're used to is, to me, a good idea, and rather reminiscient of the old BeOS 5 Personal Edition. Whether anyone switches or not, it's a safe way for them to check it out.

In fact dual booting is not a real solution either because users will eventually fall back to MS Windows because it is too easy to backslide. It is very important if you are trying to convince friends that if they are serious they must switch to a Linux only PC although let them play with a few distros before that and they need to get educated in basic security and System Admin practices.

That's a rather harsh suggestion. Unless it's an issue of HD space, I wouldn't ever recommend to a newbie that they toss Windows overboard completely and forego dual-booting. When I first started out in the non-Windows/DOS world it was around early 1998, and one of the first problems I came across was getting PPP working. If I hadn't had the foresight to dual-boot, what would you have suggested I do to find an answer to how to set it up? I certainly couldn't go online to find help--after all going online was the problem. So how did I fix it? I booted into Windows, found some websites with example scripts, printed them out, and booted back. At the time I wasn't aware of Lynx so I had to do the same thing (reboot, print out, reboot) to get XF86 configured and running. If Windows is too easy to backslide towards, that in itself speaks volumes about the learning curve and potential for frustration of non-Windows systems to people weaned on it. I don't know too many people who buy a Mac, try it for an hour, and take it back to the store (e.g. backslide) because it's too different, their menus aren't in the same place, common system applications have different names, etc. If someone doesn't like Linux, BSD, or whatever, that's their business. There may be a stupid reason for it, and one can try and correct that misinformed

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[NekoXP]

That kind of system didn't work so well on Windows 2000 though. I am really surprised it took so long for the distros to work something up for 2K/XP/Vista, I guess the stumbling block is loop-mounting a file as disk space requires write access to the underlying filesystem and they were waiting on something like ntfs-3g - although ntfs write support in the kernel was always just fine and dandy.. I guess it is a matter of quality assurance and safety of data and not technical ability..

I'd be impressed to see what else comes out of this. Perhaps a Linux distro which will install under the Program Files folder in Vista, and reuse the Windows documents folder, all running off the native NTFS filesystem (one thing users will always hate about dual boot is all their documents being spread around, and if the filesystem for Ubuntu or Debian's installers is in a disk image, and people default to /home/myuseraccount, it will do nothing but annoy..)

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[.com b4 .storm]

I guess the idea is the Ubuntu install just works, and you can put the data back onto your Windows disk..?

Not if it's NTFS. Remember, Linux cannot reliably (that is, without f**king everything up) write to NTFS partitions. It can read them, and even resize them without much trouble, but writing data to files is pretty much a no-go, and the partitions will be mounted read-only for that very reason.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[NekoXP]

I thought the FUSE ntfs-3g was pretty stable now? First release it sucked and trashed a couple of simple test disks I had but they fixed that stuff pretty damn quick.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[WhiteDragon]

I think that the kernel's NTFS write support, for only writing to (and not creating or changing the size of) existing files was considered stable for quite some time. Apparently that's all this distro uses, a large file on the existing NTFS or FAT32 partition that is loop mounted, so it would not be a problem. The file would never change size or anything like that.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[hswerdfe]

there are several solutions to this problem.

Create a Fat32 partition and save your documents there.
or save your documents in Linux and use Explore2fs
http://www.chrysocome.net/explore2fs

I think there are better options available now, but these are the only ones I have ever used. back when I still cared about booting windows.

Re:Almost Too Easy?

[NekoXP]

Neither of those are any good for this hypothetical guy who installed Ubuntu using a one-click installer are they? No repartitioning, that was the point.

I would say that having a common user folder/document folder structure across operating systems is something important to interoperability. At some point you did care about booting Windows and sharing the files, wouldn't it be easier if you didn't have to resort to a 3rd-party tool to get things done for you, or pick a non-standard location to save a file (everything on Windows defaults to Desktop or My Documents, everything on Linux will try and save it to your ~/Documents folder or ~/Desktop folder) - sharing user accounts (at least by association) would ease people into Linux by letting them have all their stuff in one place.

Even if it's having the Linux installer symlink the directories to the appropriate Linux locations via a little clicky installer.

the ultimate answer

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, it DOES run linux

Re:the ultimate answer

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, it DOES run linux

It may run Linux, but it doesn't run under Linux in Wine! Just complains about missing c:\boot.ini and that my version of Windows might be too old. So where's the Linux port?

Slashdotted already?

[Doddman]

Has that site been slashdotted? And if so, is there a mirror?

Goodbye

[Anonymous Coward]

goodbye-webserver.com

IE exploit?

[Qwell]

What would be funny, is if somebody managed to automate this, and used an IE exploit to force it to run.

Disclaimer: I cannot be held responsible if somebody actually does this.

Re:IE exploit?

[JoshJ]

It'd be fairly hard to put it into practice (would require the person to download a LOT without interrupting the download, say, by turning the computer off- though in theory that's able to be worked around) and would end up damaging the public perception of linux. Right now, most people don't know what linux is or have a vague idea that it's something that goes on computers and think it's for tech nerds.
A "linux virus" would be just the thing Microsoft needs to completely vanquish any and all hope of people switching to linux.

Re:IE exploit?

[Joebert]

Funny maybe, but it would kill PR for Debian.
If there's one thing people hate more than holes in Windows, it's the software that exploits thoose holes.

Re:IE exploit?

[noz]

I cannot be held responsible if somebody actually does this.

That's what you think. :P

Re:IE exploit?

[mark-t]

Hmm... and what if a Windows fanboy were to build it with that very purpose in mind?

Re:IE exploit?

[Joebert]

Microsoft would likely be willing to pay said fanboy big bucks.

Re:IE exploit?

[Oopsz]

you mean tuxissa?

Re:IE exploit?

[1310nm]

Who needs exploits when most people will install ActiveX controls without knowing what they do anyway? All the site needs is a "Be sure to click the yellow bar at the top of your browser!" notice.

Re:IE exploit?

[mark-t]

Meh... they might still use VB... and just invoke the code for this autoinstaller once it is finished downloading it.

Re:IE exploit?

[the_womble]

Most people would probably think "Windows looks a bit different after that update".

I told a neighbour recently that I did not use Windows. The reply was "What do use instead? Excel?"

Most people do not know what a PC is, or that it is a switchable component.

Re:IE exploit?

[iangoldby]

The really alarming thing is that the front page invites the user to download and run a Windows .exe file directly from a web site that he probably knows almost nothing about.

What should Windows users (or anyone else for that matter) never, ever, do? Repeat after me...

Re:IE exploit?

[Nataku564]

... run windows.

Re:IE exploit?

[jZnat]

You think a Windows fanboy could actually create a Debian-installing worm? XD

Re:IE exploit?

[Easy2RememberNick]

Imagine a Firefox exploit that installed a copy of Windows! The horror, 30 days of hell watching a yellow balloon.

Re:IE exploit?

[karearea]

I told a neighbour recently that I did not use Windows. The reply was "What do use instead? Excel?" And then there are the people who refer to the case as the cpu or hard drive. I've had 'interesting' reactions when I've told people (who have told me they opened their harddisk to clean it out) that harddisks should only be opened in clean room conditions and that they'd probably lost all their files ... but then I can be a bastard like that :-)

"Responsability"

[paul248]

They spelled "responsibility" wrong in one of those screenshots:

http://goodbye-microsoft.com/screenshots/3.png

Re:"Responsability"

[chris_sawtell]

Your patch would, I'm sure be very welcome.

You have sent it in havn't you?

Re:"Responsability"

[stinerman]

Nothing better to do at 2:31 EST?

Re:"Responsability"

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Logic failure at line 2: Assumption that because someone is willing to take a few seconds to be helpful by pointing out a mistake that is trivial to fix, they are also willing to take a few minutes/hours to identify and follow convoluted procedures for filing fault reports using obscure, over-complicated interfaces that would make professionals weep.

Would you like to:
(T)hank them for their help, fix the trivial bug and make life a little better
(S)implify the "approved" error-reporting process so trivia can be reported trivially
(I)gnore the problem and watch your product stick at <5% market share eternally?

Re:"Responsability"

[ElleyKitten]

Also "wether".

Re:"Responsability"

[chromatic]

Assumption that because someone is willing to take a few seconds to be helpful by pointing out a mistake that is trivial to fix....

Reporting bugs on Slashdot is helpful?

Re:questions

[Coryoth]

anyone know if this does:
1) resizes the windows partition so you can still access it from debian?
2) scans windows for your settings and replicates similar ones in debian?
Anything else, and why not just use the damn CD?

I was curious about this too. The site itself doesn't carry much information, but the related Ubuntu project has more detail. The idea is that the linux disk image gets saved as a file (in C:\ubuntu apparently) which gets loopmounted and booted into via grub4dos. Thus Windows gets to stay exactly as it is, and there isn't even any disk repartitioning done - linux just sits as a disk image file on the C:\ drive. The Ubuntu project also talk about gleaning some info from the Windows registry for installation - though it only mentions locale and timezone data (presumably more can be managed).

It is, at least, quite different from a CD install in that your Windows install (presuming this works the same as the Ubuntu version) remains untouched (aside from getting a new directory and a couple of extra files) with no risk of data loss via repartioning etc. Certainly an interesting idea.

Re:What would the Slashdot position be...

[Lehk228]

i believe the position would be on the floor

rolling and laughing

Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[exley]

From the announcement:

This has a few interesting applications:
...
- Migrating to Debian for users who have no idea how to burn an ISO and/or how to configure their BIOS for CD boot.

Uhhhh, if someone doesn't know how to burn an ISO or tinker with their BIOS, is this installer really something they should be screwing around with?

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[zxsqkty]

If it's really as simple as "click and run", sure why not? You don't have to be technically gifted to install Weatherbug or Bonzai Buddy either...

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[zlogic]

About eight years ago I knew nothing about computing except how to install a new game. But I wanted to experiment, so I installed OS/2 (pirated), then Linux. Of course I borked my whole system several times but since there was nothing valuable it was a Good Thing because I learned a lot. Oh, and after a Windows-basher-zealot spends the whole weekend configuring Xorg he'll probably be a little less biased against Windows.
This distro should focus not on the stereotypical granny or joe-sixpack users but rather on people who know nothing about computing but are willing to spend their time tinkering with Linux to learn more. Linux is great for learning how computers work and a lot of books are easier to understand than MSDN. I think the website should recommend a couple of good books that explain how Linux actually works. And set up good, friendly forums and a wiki.

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[ewanm89]

That's how I got started. I wanted to learn to program in C and found it difficult on Windows as I couldn't afford copies of expensive software. A friend suggested linux and after trying multiple distros on my exotic hardware (scrounged from multiple old computers I could get off a local school for free) I managed to install and configure slackware as my first full distro. 3.5 Yrs and a new computer later debian is booted 98% of the time. I only boot windows for games (defcon at the moment, Introversion I'm waiting). I'm never going back.

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[westlake]

Uhhhh, if someone doesn't know how to burn an ISO or tinker with their BIOS, is this installer really something they should be screwing around with?

Why not begin with a simpler question?

The frontend site goodbye-microsoft.com/ has been set up for advocacy purposes

Why does the Linux zealot come across like a fourteen year old kid scribbling his first obscenites on a bathroom wall? What did we do to deserve a site like BadVista.org?

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[that this is not und]

You (assuming you mean 'Microsoft') listened too much to the marketing people and created a big mess. Now, to be defensive, you slough off all cricitism as coming from 'Microsoft haters.'

I certainly don't hate Microsoft, any more than I hate General Motors. But they both produce a mediocre product with more 'gee whiz' marketing crap than anything consumers really want.

Welcome to a crappy future, if you work for either firm.

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[init100]

I wanted to learn to program in C and found it difficult on Windows as I couldn't afford copies of expensive software.

Doesn't everyone on Windows just use pirated software? Seems like that among my friends.

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[ewanm89]

I only do for M$ office (when I absolutly have to) and photoshop (I usually prefer gimp).

Re:Maybe not the best way to get new users...

[Duds]

If they don't know those things they're going to last 10 minutes in Linux anyway.

Mirror?

[pwizard2]

Are the pictures mirrored anywhere?

It would seem that after less than an hour of slashdot traffic, their server has melted into slag.

Re:Mirror?

[Kijori]

The main site is mirrored at Mirrordot and Coral Cache, and the pictures are at MD and CC.

Well that didn't work

[skiflyer]

I just tried it, it said everything went fine, I chose the Debian Installer at reboot, and I got a grub menu with 3 choices, expert, standard and auto. All three resulted in a "file not found message", so I booted back to XP.

Re:Well that didn't work

[Anonymous Coward]

Install Linux and run it under Wine.

Re:Well that didn't work

[Joebert]

What do you mean ?
It worked fine, I can see your desktop clear as day.

Re:Well that didn't work

[the donner party]

That's nothing! When I tried it, everything went fine, but when I first booted linux, it burned down my house, killed my dog and ran away with my wife! They really have to fix problems like that if they want non-technical users trying out this linux thingy.

Re:Well that didn't work

[jtull89]

Speaking of which, is this installer thing actually safe?

Re:Well that didn't work

[mrogers]

Joking aside, Linux usability has come a long way in the last few years. When I first installed Red Hat 5.2 back in the day, it burned down my house, killed my dog, ran away with my wife, and then I had to configure the serial ports by manually editing a config file. These days there's a GUI for that.

Re:What would the Slashdot position be...

[mark-t]

I'm not sure that'd be so funny... people would actually blame linux for it, you know. The PR for debian would probably tank. Even, as I mentioned elsewhere, if a windows fanboy might do this with that very agenda in mind, I strongly suspect the outcome would be the same, regardless of who did it.

Some Opperationz are Dangerous!

[twitter]

Uhhhh, if someone doesn't know how to burn an ISO or tinker with their BIOS, is this installer really something they should be screwing around with?

I understand that it's dangerous to "screw around" with your computer when it's running Windows, but I did not know that writing a file was one of those dangerous things now.

You would be amazed at how difficult some vendors make it to do what should be very easy. Though burning an ISO image should be the easiest thing a program could do with a blank CD, most burning programs either lack the option or hide it. Telling your computer what device to boot off should also be easy, but the larger vendors don't display the keystroke required to get into the BIOS configuration utility. What should take five minutes can easily take hours and could take a trip to the store to buy burning software. People are usually put off but these types of guessing game, especially when the results are uncertain.

All of it backfires eventually. A user who's insulted enough will do something about it. Sooner or later, they all learn.

Re:Some Opperationz are Dangerous!

[Rob Simpson]

Yeah, some CD burners come with decent software, but I was amazed when the Sonic junk that came with my laptop wanted me to pay for some "full version". On the Linux partition it's as simple as right-clicking on the .iso and selecting "burn to CD". On the other, Linux must have the most confusing and insane directory structure ever...

Re:Some Opperationz are Dangerous!

[jimicus]

All of it backfires eventually. A user who's insulted enough will do something about it. Sooner or later, they all learn.

"The idea that Bill Gates has appeared like a knight in shining armour to lead all customers out of a mire of technological chaos neatly ignores the fact that it was he who, by peddling second-rate technology, led them into it in the first place." - Douglas Adams, 1995.

That was almost 12 years ago, and Adams was talking about Windows '95. Yet with the release of Vista just around the corner, it seems just as appropriate today.

Re:Some Opperationz are Dangerous!

[RAMMS EIN]

``All of it backfires eventually. A user who's insulted enough will do something about it. Sooner or later, they all learn.''

While true, the reaction many people have to crappy software coming with their computers is either buying or pirating (Windows) software that works better. That doesn't help open source one bit...

Mirrors are our friends

[LinuxGeek]

Screenshots via mirrordot.org.

could use a better description...

[chicagotypewriter]

The last screenshot has the caption, "which in turn starts the D-I we all know and love."
Those saying goodbye to Windows that haven't already said hello to Debian don't know or love the "D-I" (which they probably know what D-I is).

Sure, it makes sense to most of us here, but Joey Bagodonuts won't have any clue what that page means.

And I was thinking something else

[mikek3332002]

When I read the headline I though the article was initally an installer for Debian GNU/Windows. LOL

Well you have to install WINE...

[EmbeddedJanitor]

... oh, wait....

Re:Well you have to install WINE...

[Ash-Fox]

I can run Wine under Windows just fine. I used to-do it to get Windows XP only applications running under Windows 2000.

Re:Well you have to install WINE...

[SLi]

What, the feature to run Windows XP applications in Windows 2000 is in Windows XP? How clever.

Re:Well you have to install WINE...

[McGiraf]

"What, the feature to run Windows XP applications in Windows 2000 is in Windows XP? How clever."

How typical of microsoft, I does not surprise me at all :)

Re:Well you have to install WINE...

[BJH]

I just tried it (clicking on the link from Ubuntu and saying yes when it asked if I wanted to run the .exe under Wine).

It gets as far as the download stage, but partway through pops up a window with the message "Error: c:\boot.ini not found. Your version of Windows might be too old, or damaged."

Now to file a bug report with the Wine team...

goodbye-microsoft?

[MadnessASAP]

I believe you meant goodbye-server.com there. But seriously I'm assuming that Microsoft is going to be to happy about this and will probably have their lawyers try to cue that domain into their possession. Any more legally inclined people out there care to offer there opinion/insight?

Because...

[OneSmartFellow]

...loadlin is too difficult ?

Re:Because...

[mrjb]

You will be surprised just how noob some users are.

I have written a cross-platform application that consists of just an executable and a shared library (DLL/.so, respectively).

Even with the email-assistance I give them, regularly it proves too difficult for users to copy the library file to the default library directory (c:\windows\system32 or /usr/local/lib, respectively). Especially Mac users have trouble because they have to do this as root user, which often is a concept unknown to them.

This happens so often that I'm working on an installer now. End users just can't be bothered with technicalities and procedures.

Re:Because...

[OneSmartFellow]

OK, so why not simply create a script that relies upon loadlin rather than reinvent the wheel.

Re:Because...

[nyu1]

That's what I did ;) Just that instead of loadlin, it's grub4dos (loadlin doesn't support win >2k). And instead of a silent script, it's a GUI script.

Re:Because...

[iangoldby]

Especially Mac users have trouble because they have to do this as root user, which often is a concept unknown to them.

Huh? I'm sitting at my MacBook Pro right now. If I drag a file from the desktop into my /usr/local/lib finder window it just says "The item <whatever> could not be moved because "lib" cannot be modified." Then there are two buttons: Authenticate, and OK. If I then click Authenticate, it asks me to type an Administrator's name and password. Nothing here about a 'root user'. Furthermore, any Mac user who had no idea what an Administrator was would either already be one (its the default, sadly) or had his account created by someone who doesn't allow him to make alterations to /usr/local/lib anyway!

(By the way, you do know about shift-command-G in the Finder, don't you? I take it this is how you are directing the user to open /usr/local/lib.)

Just in time!

[The MAZZTer]

For the release of Vista in two days, which will make this installer break! Vista no longer uses boot.ini or the NTLDR loader.

In fact, I'm using the Vista RC2 bootloader to boot Windows XP. The Debian installer would fail horribly because the boot process would not be altered atall.

Re:Just in time!

[lantastik]

Vista was released over a week ago. The download version is the version they are releasing in two days.

Re:Just in time!

[joey]

I'm sure that someone will figure out a way to boot linux from vista eventually. In the meantime, I understand that vista has fairly extreme system requirements, so there's a whole load of machines that won't be able to run it, and the installer seems like a nice advocacy move to switch those away from the obsolete version of windows they're stuck with, and over to linux.

Re:Just in time!

[kestasjk]

Err people aren't going to get Vista on their new computer only to immediately head to goodbye-microsoft.com to install Debian.

Oh wait.. On second thought that was a bit short sighted of them.

Re:Just in time!

[inquisitor]

You can in fact do the same stuff with Vista's bootloader - if you install Vista after XP, it'll migrate all the menu options across; you could just do a bit of creative googling on "bcdedit" (the procedure is the same as this one for chainloading a hacked MacOS X boot sector - look at step 13) or you could use a graphical tool like VistaBootPRO.

I don't particularly like the publicity stunt nature of this installer, but it does at least make Debian easier to install and that's a good thing for them. (Shame about the Microsoft snark on the other pages, though, makes it come off as amateur.) The Ubuntu one seems to be better, at least because of its lack of similar soul-crushing focus on ideology.

Re:questions

[Incidence]

If the installers are able to create a functional dual boot system without affecting Windows then this could be really good for Linux adoption, assuming my situation is even semi-common outside my group of friends.

I've worked with live-CD's in the past and would like to install Linux, but the problem has always been the threat of lost data and system downtime getting the OS to work. Between school and my job I can't afford to be without a functional computer for any real length of time, so even the small chance of something going wrong and the natural learning curve of a new OS have made switching impossible. If this option is able to do what Ubuntu plans then switching would be a very easy decision.

A few hours and an over-night download giving a fully functional Windows OS for work and school and a Linux OS for learning the system would be just what I've wanted.

Re:questions

[scum-e-bag]

I mean, you're running Windows and you paid for the right to use them... RIGHT? RIGHT? ;)

No. You paid Microsoft to tell you how to use them.

Re:questions

[mikearthur]

Out of interest, as I don't know, is there much of a performance hit for using a loopback filesystem as your root, in this way?

Re:questions

[joey]

The current implementation for Debian is different than what Ubuntu is working on. goodbye-windows.com just downloads the two files (kernel, initrd) that let the completely standard Debian installer boot, installs a grub bootloader and uses it to convince windows to boot linux. Thereafter it's identical to what would happen if you netboot the Debian Installer.

d-i does allow optional resizing of the windows partition and setting up a dual-boot system. It does not scan windows for settings or the like.

Oh BTW, while it's slashdotted, you can see it at http://www.mirrordot.org/stories/f592f4a8f9a66105d 885ff7a49228380/index.html

Re:questions

[at2000]

1. No
2. No

You only avoided the need for burning a CD, but not the d-i. That's why the Ubuntu one is much easier to use.

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[chill]

For the curious...

Here is a link to the ISO Burner Power Toy for Windows XP. This will allow you to record a CD or DVD .iso image under WinXP without having to go out and purchase a full version of Nero or Roxio. This is a very handy tool.

http://isorecorder.alexfeinman.com/isorecorder.htm

Re:questions

[semiotec]

isn't this what BeOS used to have? where you can launch BeOS from within Windows. And in Windows you just see a file, which is the BeOS image.

Re:http://goodbye-microsoft.com

[Zontar The Mindless]

I think this should be

http://goodbye-server.com/

Damn! That one's slashdotted, too!

Re:Debian + Beryl?

[strider44]

Just add the repository from the beryl pages. It's not very hard. Debian support will be forthcoming I'm sure.

This sort of thing really is needed

[gjuk]

By most standards (although perhaps not those of /.ers) I'm no newbie - I used to write assembly on the Z80 and x86. I run a number of Linux servers and am fairly confident with a degree of admin on them via ssh. However, my only attempts at running desktop Linux (without destroying Windows, which I dislike but need) have been abject failures. Sure, I believe it's probably not too hard - but life's too short for the endless pages of details I have to read. Still, I want to do my bit for the cause. The easier we make it for people like me - the more chance we've got of making it easier for everyone else. It's important for the future of technology that we break the Windows hegemony (not anti-MS, just pro-competition). Steps like this might just help.

Re:This sort of thing really is needed

[ewanm89]

The installer does it for you. Just make sure you defrag and backup (extra security I've never needed) Win disk first and during partitioning click to shrink Windows partitions. Make sure you choose desktop install.

Re:This sort of thing really is needed

[smoker2]

Well, lets see how many pages we need.

First download vmware player.
Then download an Linux image
Unzip the image (if necessary)
Point the installed vmware player at the image you downloaded.
Enjoy.

Re:This sort of thing really is needed

[rs232]

The installer does it for you. Just make sure you defrag and backup"

I don't understand the 'abject failures', as you say the Installer does it for you. If you want to do it manually then you can do it in just four steps. First get a Knoppix CD and your Linux Installer of choice.

01. Scandisk and defrag Windows.
02. Boot from the Knoppix CD and run QTParted and resize Windows to make room for Linux.
03. Boot from the Linux install DVD and install.
04. Reboot the machine and you have a dual boot system.

Re:questions

[keitosama]

You had to launch BeOS as an application within Windows, while this method still makes you fire up Debian in the bootloader before entering Windows, apparently.

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[skinfitz]

I've never managed to get that working - I emailed Alex Feinman (the author) about it recently but have yet to receive a reply.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[skinfitz]

Microsoft do provide a program to burn ISO images - it's in the Windows Server 2003 Resource Kit and it's called 'cdburn.exe'.

WHY they can't simply distribute a mission critical tool like this along with the OS I have no idea.

goodbye-microsoft.com

[timmarhy]

i predict MS lawsuit and legal challenge for that domain name in 5, 4, 3, 2 ....

Re:goodbye-microsoft.com

[creativeHavoc]

if http://ie7.com/ can survive this long, goodbye-microsoft.com should have similar luck.

Re:goodbye-microsoft.com

[Kidbro]

Nobody is stopping you.

Re:goodbye-microsoft.com

[Trogre]

hello-linux.com ?

Worms

[skinfitz]

I am loving this 'click here to install Linux' trend - I am wondering how long it is going to be before we see a worm exploiting this to install Linux on vulnerable machines.

All it would take is a silent installer with a built in bit torrent client to download the files and an XP theme for Gnome or KDE.

They could even advertise - don't like Windows? Want Linux? No problem - just plug your Windows machine into the net, turn off your firewall and go out for a few hours.

Re:Worms

[traabil]

I am loving this 'click here to install Linux' trend - I am wondering how long it is going to be before we see a worm exploiting this to install Linux on vulnerable machines.

Why would someone do that? It would for sure kill off all their zombies.

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[Sterling Christensen]

There's always BurnAtOnce: http://www.burnatonce.com/

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[5of0]

Works fine for me - you do have the correct Service Pack one, right? There's different ones for SP1 and SP2.

very bad idea,IMO

[CdBee]

I always feel that different operating systems should be on different parttions so as to gve better redundancy and the ability to remove one without wiping the others. It was a bad idea when MS allowed Windows 2000 and 98 to coexist on a single FAT32 partition and this is a bad idea now..

If the Debian people want to make migration easier, they should built a Win32 app that exports outlook express email to mbx and installs it into Thunderbird, copies over address books, favourites and wallpaper. THATs the sort of thing that gets a newbie linux user feeling happy.

Re:very bad idea,IMO

[Zerathdune]

While I agree with your thinking, you are mistaken in understanding how this works. As I understand it, the ubuntu version will run from an image stored on the windows C: drive, but the debian exe differs in this respect. The process is as follows for debian:

- user downloads and runs exe.
- exe detects if the system is 64 bit capable and picks the appropriate images for the kernel and init.
- exe uses grub for dos to create a bootloader that has options for windows and the debian installer.
- user restarts computer and selects debian installer.
- from here on it behaves exactly as a net install cd, and you will infact have to resize your ntfs partition (which in my experience debian does just fine.)

This doesn't yield a setup that is any different from a standard debian install. IMO, the biggest advantage of this is being able to install on computers with no cd drive or usb boot. I like the idea stated in the 2nd paragraph of your post, and I suspect it would be extraordinarily easy, since Thunderbird and Firefox both have the capability already to export Outlook and IE settings, and the code could easily be reused.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[slapys]

"WHY they can't simply distribute a mission critical tool like this along with the OS I have no idea."

Hmm...not shipping their OS with a tool mainly used to burn other OSes...why would Microsoft do that? This makes no sense! Someone please explain to me what is going on here??

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[skinfitz]

Yep - I have XP Pro SP2 with the correct version. It all appears to work until the actual burning or image reading part - when I click go it immediately just tells me it's finished without doing anything.

I Love it!

[frsmith]

Classic!!!!! Bob

oh it works, mostly

[misanthrope101]

You already seem to know more than me, and I've exclusively run different Linux distros, all Debian-based, for about 6 months. My WinXP install was about a year old and I didn't want to go through the pain of reinstalling all those dozens of programs. Apt-get is much faster in that regard, and with the default install I get a much more usable system than I do with the default install of Windows Anything. I like Kile, Synaptic, the terminal, and Knoppix. When things work, they work better than Windows. They work 90% of the time. When they don't work, they just don't work, and I can't fix it. My sound is at half-volume and apparantly it's a chipset issue with no resolution yet. Also, my university's distance-education portal (WebTycho at the U. of Maryland) won't work with Ubuntu, because it says I don't have Javascript installed, though it's there. So I have to reboot into Knoppix to do my homework.

So there have been frustrations, but not enough for me to re-install all the progams I would need to give me a Windows install as useful as the one I get with Knoppix or some other Linux distro. Also, I can't figure out how to get Konqueror to view all the folders in detailed-list view by default. I keep having to select it. So yes, again, there are frustrations. But it works, by and large. There were frustrations with Windows, too. But I'll at least have to get a VMWare install of Windows together, because I just ordered a Garmin GPS with the Mapsource software, which is Windows-only.

goodbye-microsoft.com

[massysett]

I think it's better to promote Linux because of what it does well, rather than promoting Linux by saying MS is no good.

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[Curtman]

Works fine for me - you do have the correct Service Pack one, right? There's different ones for SP1 and SP2.

That's the problem with Windows. Until they get that stuff sorted, it will never be ready for the desktop.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not shipping their OS with a tool used mainly to burn iso-images of slipstreamed, updated Microsoft OSes, so your brand new installation doesn't get rooted while you attempt to download the patches. This makes no sense!

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[inquisitor]

You can also use imgburn, which works very well for lots of disc image formats.

Re:questions

[smoker2]

May I refer you to my previous comment, made some moments ago.

The front-end site is really terrible

[robosmurf]

The windows based installer is an interesting idea, and the Ubuntu version looks pretty good.

However, the goodbye-microsoft.com front end site is a complete disaster.

It just contains a link to an executable file. The 'More details about it link' says NOTHING about what it does. It doesn't say what it will install, what it is for, or what it will do to your existing OS.

I really hope that few people would be stupid enough to run the executable. Getting people to run random files from sites with names that suggest that they will trash your OS is not something to be encouraged.

Re:The front-end site is really terrible

[westlake]

However, the goodbye-microsoft.com front end site is a complete disaster

You were expecting something better from a site that calls itself "goodbye-microsoft.com" or "BadVista.org?"

Re:The front-end site is really terrible

[XB-70]

I could not agree more. As a paying member of various LUGS, this is just the sort of thing that causes immense grief and head-aches to John Q. Public. It's like giving a 15 year old the keys to a bus and saying, go pick up the kids. I think I'm going to start a website called: GoodbyeGeekMarketing.org and point out all the stupid things that back-room programmers think the public 'needs' vs. how to entice them to 'want'.

If the Debian crowd are smart, they should look at what makes people tick and address their issues in a cogent, reasoned way, not simply have the public install some strange executable who's purpose they don't understand.

Re:The front-end site is really terrible

[that this is not und]

If my company is typical, I think people are already that stupid.

The IT person in charge of antivirus deployment actually distributes virus updates company-wide in binary email detachments. So all employees are well-trained now to click-and-run attachments that (supposedly) come from her (forged?) email address.

We're a company that runs Windows on servers (!??!!?!?) so I guess it's par for the course for the IT people to be like that.

Re:The front-end site is really terrible

[init100]

Getting people to run random files from sites with names that suggest that they will trash your OS is not something to be encouraged.

You should be glad that the domain name suggests what will happen to Windows. Malware does not advertise as such. :) So I'd rather say that running random files from the internet is not something that should be encouraged, regardless of domain name.

Re:The front-end site is really terrible

[Jezter!* $nothername]

I think that there's a hidden "danger" here that seems to have been overlooked.
The downloaded .exe file would indeed look very familiar to a Windows user and should a Windows (computer) naif user click on the link, download and double-click the .exe ("Hey, it's an .exe file, that's Microsoft stuff". Click, click) to install the Debian or Ubuntu distro, see it work, even like it ... and then praise Microsoft for supplying the goodies!

There has to be far more detail given so that the naif in question understands that they are installing and running a completely different o/s within the Windows environment and that it can be uninstalled. That it is a GNU/Linux product and nothing to do with Microsoft. That it can be downloaded in its unadulterated form and loaded as the single o/s on their system or onto its own partition (or second HDD) as a proper duel boot option.

Having said that, if explained fully, I think it's a great way for non GNU/Linux users to get to try it out without much hassle and especially with the "do I, don't I dilemma?" facing many Windows users, with Vista being almost force fed to them, over the next couple of months.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[Rufty]

Because it's already too fat with all the AOL crap Dell and the rest preload? Because it's useful?? Because customers want it???
Just tried to download. Didn't work. Just how dows M$ break a site so it doesn't even render in safari????
Firefox is OK, though ;=)
Now, will this run under parallels?

drivers that make it more then a toy

[cinnamon colbert]

will it recognize my canon pixma ip 1600 printer and pcmicia wireless card ? no ? little more then a toy far as my personal needs go.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Ash-Fox]

will it recognize my canon pixma ip 1600 printer

According to some usenet posts, it's supported fine by CUPS

and pcmicia wireless card

My PCMCIA wireless cards (broadcom, atheros chipsets) all work fine under Linux, I did have to install one package (bcm43xx-firmware) for broadcom before it work though. Just 'apt-get install bcm43xx-firmware' (nothing else).

I cannot say if any of that would work under Debian stable. I haven't used stable in years.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[cinnamon colbert]

i dont mean to be rude, but it is posts like this that keep linux off the mainstream desktop
type apt-get....
r u joking ? stupid lazy people like me are not going to do that
the pixma thing was kinda sneaky... i tried installing lindows, and according to the what i found on the interenet at the time, pixmas are real hard to work with linux

which brings us to the real question: if (a) you respect other peoples desires, and (b) i don't care about cpu threads or security or file systems, but do care about ease of use, which means the os recognizing the printer i already have, what advantage does linux give me ? untill linux can answer that question, it will be marginal on the desktop

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Just Some Guy]

will it recognize my canon pixma ip 1600 printer and pcmicia wireless card ? no ? little more then a toy far as my personal needs go.

It will probably recognize your PCMCIA card. It may or may not work with your $29.00 printer.

Elsewhere, people are still having problems installing Windows XP on systems that only have SATA drives. I guess that makes it "little more than a toy" by your standards?

my post #10543621 "most arrogant ever on /."

#17790056 is in the running.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Ash-Fox]

r u joking ? stupid lazy people like me are not going to do that

Stupid lazy people like me aren't going to tell you to click the K button, then goto the system category etc. I only give you the terminal command because it's easier for me. You can do this all graphically if you want.

which brings us to the real question: if (a) you respect other peoples desires

Yes, if you don't want to try Linux, don't. Stop wasting my time.

(b) i don't care about cpu threads or security or file systems, but do care about ease of use, which means the os recognizing the printer i already have, what advantage does linux give me ? untill linux can answer that question, it will be marginal on the desktop

You've been on Slashdot for so long and you don't know the advantages of Linux?

I even just Googled on it right now and found the advantages. I'm sorry, but I don't think you're capable of installing Windows. So I suggest you buy a pre-installed Linux system from a vendor like System76, as I don't think you can install Windows from scratch either.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[jZnat]

My PCMCIA wireless cards (broadcom, atheros chipsets) all work fine under Linux, I did have to install one package (bcm43xx-firmware) for broadcom before it work though. Just 'apt-get install bcm43xx-firmware' (nothing else). Okay, I use Linux myself (Kubuntu Edgy and Feisty on separate computers), but comments like this really piss me off. How the hell do you apt-get install anything without network access? The install method used in goodbye-microsoft.com doesn't download the two DVDs necessary to have every package in the Debian repository, so I wouldn't assume you can just pop the CD in and install the firmware. This is especially a problem for people who don't have a second computer and are trying the installation without having another partition with Windows on it [anymore].

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[init100]

Then I suggest that you continue using the Microsoft products that you enjoy so much. Nobody is going to force you to switch to Linux, and since you demand that Linux becomes Windows for you to switch, then stay with Windows, since you like it so much.

If you, on the other hand, had been inconvenienced enough by the "shitty software ms produces", you might consider trying and learning a new operating system as a way to solve your problems. Either you stay in Windows and continue to use the "cruddy software", or you accept that you might have to learn a few things to set up and use Linux efficiently. You have obviously chosen to stay with the "cruddy software" rather than making an effort to learn a few new things and solve your problems. That's your choice.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Doctor Crumb]

You think typing "apt-get install somedriverpackage" is difficult? Think about what you have to do on windows; plug in the device, track down the driver CD (or floppy), start the install wizard, click through a EULA, choose which of the many drivers on the CD actually match your device (since they ship one CD for many models), wait while things install, click through several "the driver is installed" messages, and finally reboot (at least once). You only think it's easier to install drivers in windows because a) it's what you're used to, and b) you've never tried installing an obscure device.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[init100]

comments like this really piss me off. How the hell do you apt-get install anything without network access?

Probably because few computers come with wlan but no wired ethernet connection. And I hear much fewer problems getting wired ethernet interfaces to work than wireless interfaces.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Ash-Fox]

Again, this is my privelidge, adn the failure of the linux community to realize that most people are like me is why linux on the user desktop is roughly, rounded off, zero (the inability of thelinux community to provide an answer that is satisfactory to me and others like me as to how to deal with the problem of office doc and xls file compatibility is also big)

What compatability issues? OpenOffice is more compatible with Microsoft's own file documents than Microsoft is? Have you even tried opening Microsoft Word documents from older versions of Word in new versions? Guess what -- It doesn't work. But it works in OpenOffice. Not only that, but I can open the later Office documents in OpenOffice too.

Macro support? OpenOffice.org has had the support of the majority uses of Macros for ages now.

What are you rambling on about?

I'm not interested - that is my priviledge, and since linux is stuck at zero on the desktop, it is fair to ask if 90%of th epeople in the world care, and i thing the answer is no.

Seeing that about 20% of unique vistors who visit some of my websites are using Linux, that isn't zero

if linux doesn't recognize the stuff i have, what is it doing for me - rather then get defensive, and call me names, answer that question on my terms.

If Linux is not recognizing your 'stuff', what is it doing? It's not recognizing your 'stuff'. Whatever that may be. I don't get the point of the circular logic question you're asking.

sorry, linux has to do something i care about - simple graphical installs with a nice desktop are a minimum, not something to be proud of , a minimum for a good os.

Which it does already, infact I find some Linux installers easier than Windows's installers (particularly Kubuntu's).

you can ask, why am i here bashing linux ??

You're bashing it because you're making assumptions that aren't true about Linux. I am not going to go out of my way to enlighten someone who is unable to spend less than half a second of his life to type two extra letters for words and ontop of that demand I go out of my way and write up a proper answer to what you want to know exactly.

you don't do anything i care that much about, and linux seems to be a pain

You've already made your assumptions before trying it. Stay with Windows and ignore everything else, you will find yourself much happier.

and you are forked intoa 100 branches (google psychology of choice to see why this is bad) and and and..

I personally find the benefits outweigh the costs.

do something new an dusefull that I care about, and linux will sweep ms away in a moment. keep focusing on garbagge like pipes and awk, you'll never get anywhere

No, Linux being better than Microsoft's software will not sweep MS away alone (there are certainly many instances of where Linux can do things better than Windows can and vice versa). Microsoft software is sold with most brand new systems, a lot of software is written purely for Windows. Until shops start selling purely Linux with brand new computers, like they do with Windows. It is unlikely Linux systems will just 'sweep ms away'.

And I'll raise another point, the OS installed on computers by default doesn't have to be good at all -- said OS will sweep them away anyway.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Ash-Fox]

Okay, I use Linux myself (Kubuntu Edgy and Feisty on separate computers), but comments like this really piss me off. How the hell do you apt-get install anything without network access?

In this case you will to grab http://ubuntu.cafuego.net/pool/dapper-cafuego/bcm4 3xx/bcm43xx-firmware_1.3-1ubuntu1_all.deb (works in Dapper, Edgy, Feisty -- This information can be found on Ubuntu's wiki).

Copy it onto a cd/disk whatever and either double click it in the GUI to start a package manager or

sudo dpkg -i bcm43xx-firmware_1.3-1ubuntu1_all.deb

Other than that... Most people are able to connect temporarily via ethernet to their router (many home wireless&ADSL routers usually come with one free LAN cable).

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[BSDetector]

I have NEVER had a problem installing Windows XP on any system that only had a SATA drive. I guess that I must be some sort of mutant because I don't spout drivel like the above Slashdotter and I have magic installation-time powers. It's also ironic that he/she mocks someone with an alleged $29 printer yet he/she wants nothing but "FREE" software. A-hole!

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[Just Some Guy]

I have NEVER had a problem installing Windows XP on any system that only had a SATA drive. I guess that I must be some sort of mutant because I don't spout drivel like the above Slashdotter and I have magic installation-time powers.

Guess so, because Googling for install windows xp sata gives a few million hits, and they're not all about how fun it is.

It's also ironic that he/she mocks someone with an alleged $29 printer yet he/she wants nothing but "FREE" software.

Who said that? You're on crack.

Re:drivers that make it more then a toy

[BSDetector]

So if go to Google and enter "install linux sata" and I see that there were approximately 1,310,000 hits. And guess what - the very first one (http://xtronics.com/reference/SATA-RAID-debian-fo r-2.6.html) contains the gem below. I guess you have all that down pat along with all the other user-friendly requirements.

Fix up initrd
If you are using a SATA drive you pay attention!

edit /etc/mkinitrd/mkinitrd.conf and change:

MODULES=most
to

###MODULES=most
MODULES=dep
and

ROOT=probe
to

###ROOT=probeROOT="/dev/md2 jfs"
This tells init to use what it takes to boot off of a raid device not the /dev/sda device currently used. go to Google to do the run of the mill XP deploys. So tell me

just tried and failed

[cinnamon colbert]

i just tried this on my hp laptop running win2000..process failed early on, some nonsense about mounting a root partition or something...

Re:just tried and failed

[wellingj]

some nonsense about mounting a root partition or something...

Hardly nonsense if it told you what the problem was....don't see that on much on Windows.

Re:Shows why I don't want Linux as my desktop

[springbox]

Eh? The difference between the two: The windows fonts in the shown dialogs are rendered as-is with no alterations. The fonts in the Debian installer use some sort of "anti-aliasing" around the edges of the font making them look smoother. I wouldn't call that "smeared"; I think it looks nice.

I RTFA

[frAme57]

and I have one question. Now, I am all for expanding the GNU/Linux/FOSS/BSD userbase, and I am certainly no l33t user but is this

- Migrating to Debian for users who have no idea how to burn an ISO
and/or how to configure their BIOS for CD boot.

really the people we want to invite to the party?

Re:I RTFA

[Kooglebot]

No, they're not.

I've used Linux for nearly ten years now. I switched to Debian from Red Hat a few years ago and like it very much. Installation (for me, anyway) was a piece of cake.

But what I don't hear much about -- in these comments or elsewhere -- is CONFIGURATION. A chimpanzee can now install Debian on a PC, but how about configuring exim? Or setting up a printer? I had problems with both of these things -- which I eventually solved, of course, but how many naive users could? There are plenty of useful guides, books, etc., but very little written at the NOVICE level for Debian (probably because it isn't really possible).

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[bfree]

cdrtools frontend GPL burning for Windows.

mod more funny

[Mateo_LeFou]

"I told a neighbour recently that I did not use Windows. The reply was "What do use instead? Excel?"

That made my day.

Re:mod more funny

[init100]

"I told a neighbour recently that I did not use Windows. The reply was "What do use instead? Excel?"

That made my day.

Unfortunately, it is probably true.

Opensource Windows kernel exist

[DrYak]

Although I think you were speaking about something like Cygwin (GNU userland and Posix compatibility layer inside an actual Windows OS from Microsoft),
We should maybe point that ReactOS is an actual Windows-compatible open-source kernel and may one day actually end up being available as Debian GNU/ReactOS.

Very White & Nerdy...

[Das Auge]

I was really excited to see how this works, but I'm running Ubuntu. So I installed in under WINE...

Re:Very White & Nerdy...

[goddidit]

Did you have to tweak your wine config? When I try to run it under wine it says that there is no c:\boot.ini, and suggest that my version of windows might be too old or damaged.

Re:Very White & Nerdy...

[kurzweilfreak]

You sure you were running under WINE and not Vista?

Zing. :P

Re:Very White & Nerdy...

[BJH]

Actually, if you look under your ~/.wine/drive_c/ directory, you'll see that it has created a debian/ directory and placed some grub-related files under there, one of which is named "grldr". I didn't try starting that one under Wine, but I wonder how far it would have got...

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[The Spoonman]

some DVD/CD burner program (believe it or not, WindowsXP does *not* do this out of the box!)

I forget the current Slashdot stance: do we want Windows to do everything out of the box, or do we want to chastise them for doing anything out of the box because that drives away competition? I mean, if they're going to be chastised for including a web browser (an absolute essential for everyone these days), but then complain that they don't include burning software (still only needed by a subset of everyone) isn't that a little hypocritical? If they did include burning software, wouldn't that drive Roxio and Nero out of business like IE did Netscape?

Re:Shows why I don't want Linux as my desktop

[chrwei]

maybe you need to increase the refresh rate on your monitor or gte one with a better dot pitch? to me the windows fonts look jaggy and hard, where the anti-aliased linux ones look smooth like print on paper. You can get the same effect in windows though by turnin g on Clear Type, and you can also turn it off in linux.

see, this is why you DO want linux on the desktop. the defaults look better and work better (tell me again why my XP taskbar needs to be smooth and rounded wasting 30% of its screen space?) and it lets you change EVERYTHING.

Re:Shows why I don't want Linux as my desktop

[Just Some Guy]

Look at the screenshots of the Windows dialogs: the small fonts are perfectly clear and sharp. Look at the last screenshot, of the Debian GUI installer: the fonts look all smeary or out of focus or something.

In other news, people have different antialiasing settings from mine, and some even have their subpixels in a different order.

Re:Shows why I don't want Linux as my desktop

[Ash-Fox]

It looks better/worse depending on the display (CRT/LCD).

For those who think that this is a new concept.

[ce33na66]

Slackware did something very similar many years ago. They may even still have the option. I don't know since I don't use slackware anymore.

It was not too complicated to install a loopback filesystem in a file on a FAT partition. If I remember correctly, I did this as a Linux newbie around the mid to late '90's.

This does bring up one of my favorite pet peeves. I started with linux in 1995. I was a DOS user with no idea of the complexity of linux. All that I knew was that I hated Win95 because it was more restrictive than DOS. Without actually understanding what I was doing, I was able to read a set of instructions and manually install an early version of Slackware. It worked and got me going down the Linux road.

It absolutely gripes my ass that "so called" computer whiz kids, who wouldnt know a command line if it bit them, say that linux cannot do this or linux cannot do that. What they really are saying is that they are too lazy to learn some simple task that Microsoft is presently handling for them.

Seriously though; modern linux distro's are easier and quicker to install than any 32 bit version of windows. I welcome a web based, loopback filesystem, installation program. It is the only way some people are going to learn that they are being duped by a company selling them nothing but false promises.

Re:Shows why I don't want Linux as my desktop

[jZnat]

Maybe you should stop using CRT displays? Also, the Windows fonts look like ass IMO because they're all aliased and whatnot. Enabling ClearType in Windows doesn't help much either because also IMO, I feel that is way too blurry.

Re:questions

[Firehawke]

I'm actually disappointed by the design. I was expecting something more like a Windows executable that takes system settings and does 90% of the install process from actually INSIDE Windows. It wouldn't be impossible by any means-- just a bit tough since filesystem drivers aren't available for a number of the popular ones (ReiserFS, for instance..)

Re: Windows .ISO burner

[that this is not und]

I remember when Microsoft said there would never (need to) be a Service Pack for Windows 2000.

-1, "Hegemony"

[Gothmolly]

You've been reading too much Noam Chomsky. Ask your parents for some other books next time you come up from the basement.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[bazorg]

The problem is not merely including software extras with windows, it's the way they're made mandatory and favoured over 3rd party alternatives. the EU got a different build of Windows when requested MS to remove Media Player, that shouldn't have to happen. On a Mac, if you drag Safari to the trash bin it will not drag the Help system with it...

Re:RMS exploit?

[init100]

Linux would be set back for years, because people could no longer trust them. Instead of offering their software above, and in the open, they have to sneak it onto people's computers, like a common crimminal.

Sounds like something Microsoft would pay big bucks for.

Re:What would the Slashdot position be...

[init100]

... if somebody made an auto-installing version of this, i.e. installed the same way as spyware is?

I don't care about the Slashdot position. Such a thing would be great PR for Microsoft, who can now say what they have wanted to say for years: "See? You can't trust these communist Linux hippies. You can only trust big commercial software companies like Microsoft".

Doen't run on Wine...

[flyingfsck]

Hmm, a total POS - I tried to install it using Wine and it wouldn't work...

Wait for the Cease & Desist

[jvs]

How long before they get a C&D from the M$ lawyers for using Microsoft in the domainname.
I dont think parody will be an excuse this time.

Re:Been there, done that...

[NekoXP]

That's SO user friendly! A 30 page document! Much better than a one-click installer!!!

It's not for noobs!

[Anonymous Coward]

This is in fact very nice because I don't have a CD Drive in my Thinkpad X60s and I've been too lazy to install Debian another way.

I _am_ lazy, but I'm running Debian on various machines for 7 years!

Well, we've fixed that, haven' we?

[ColdWetDog]

The site is slashdotted hard. Joe Q. Public isn't going there for a while.

Now, we just wait 24 hours or thereabouts for the dupe and we'll do it again! Rinse, lather, repeat.

hasta-la-vista-microsoft.com

[Jump]

Why not www.hasta-la-vista-microsoft.com ?
Like in the Arni movie ;-)

Re:questions

[GodSpiral]

I installed linux on loopback FAT system 10 years ago. It seemed a bit slow, but not outrageously so, and for most applications, just load time was affected.

I do wonder if there are data integrity and major speed issues with loopback on ntfs, and if there has been any improvements over the last 10 years in this regard.

Spellcheque...

[zurtle]

Look at this and cringe when you see the word "RESPONSABILITY"... I know I did.

How will people take this seriously if basic, ignorant spelling mistakes like that slip in at the installer stage???? I know several people who would instantly hit Cancel and never look at Linux again. Silly, silly people.

Blow away windows?

[nurb432]

Neither of these 2 'installers' delete anything that is already there. Though you could fill your drive up pretty easy.

Re:What would the Slashdot position be...

[Trogre]

The PR for debian would probably tank

Debian ... tank... Debian... tank

There's a joke in there somewhere, I know it.

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[TheRealAnonymousCowa]

I forget the current Slashdot stance: do we want Windows to do everything out of the box, or do we want to chastise them for doing anything out of the box because that drives away competition? I mean, if they're going to be chastised for including a web browser (an absolute essential for everyone these days), but then complain that they don't include burning software (still only needed by a subset of everyone) isn't that a little hypocritical? If they did include burning software, wouldn't that drive Roxio and Nero out of business like IE did Netscape?

Knowing Microsoft, I doubt that any of their offerings would match up to the power of professional tools like Roxio and Nero. And as of now, I don't think Windows XP supports DVD burning. Either way, I prefer using Nero as it gives a lot more power to the user than Windows could possibly hope to.

Re:On the other hand...

[neminem]

You know, some people have computers that don't have BIOSes capable of booting from cds, because their BIOSes are lame. Some people might want to run linux on these computers. This seems like a pretty easy way to do that.

Heck, it's even nicer for those of us who do - why waste a cd if you don't have to?

Re:What would the Slashdot position be...

[Schraegstrichpunkt]

Rebuttal: "They wouldn't have been able to do that if your software wasn't so bad."

Re:Shows why I don't want Linux as my desktop

[JamesGecko]

*cough* The Linux fonts can look just as ugly as the Windows ones. Just go turn off the hinting/anti-aliasing. The option is under "Menu -> User Interface Preferences" in XFCE. I believe it's under "System -> Preferences -> Fonts -> Advanced" in Gnome. KDE probably has the option buried in that massive collection of widgets they call a control panel, but you get the idea. By the way, you might also want to avoid Mac OS X and Windows Vista, they have it on by default, too. ;-)

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[jesboat]

No, but you do lose the ability to change your default web browser if you're running 10.4.

Re:questions

[Solra Bizna]

With Gentoo Linux, you can take advantage of the fact that Disk Utility creates 256MB of empty space before every partition. That's enough room for a bootloader partition and a small root partition. Just bind big directories like /usr, /opt, /home, etc. into your OSX partition, and voila! (I did this on my desktop. There were no issues at all, aside from the fact that HFS+ is nowhere near as fast as reiserfs.)

Only real problem is, Gentoo is not exactly a user-friendly distro. :|

I've thought about what would be involved to get Ubuntu into a setup like that, but the Ubuntu graphical installer is a horrid mess from an implementation standpoint, and I wouldn't know where to begin.

-:sigma.SB

Re:Ubuntu+Windows not hard at all.

[The Spoonman]

it's the way they're made mandatory and favoured over 3rd party alternatives

Mandatory that they be used? Mandatory that 3rd parties use them? Or, mandatory that they be on the machine? Big differences between all three. There's no mandate that says you have to use IE. I use Firefox and not once have I received a call from Microsoft. Similarly, there's no mandate that third parties use IE as a basis for their apps. A lot of companies see the value in having a single base they code to, but they're the smart ones (described as "being in bed with Microsoft" in Slashdot lingo). The only mandate is that it be on the machine, and why is that? So that they, and 3rd parties, can build against it. Got an app that needs to retrieve web pages? You can either do it from scratch yourself, or just use the APIs that are already available. This is the fundamental problem with Linux: no standards. There's 500 different ways to accomplish the same goals and achieve the same results. Some call this "flexibility". Those who know what they're doing call it "wasteful".

EU got a different build of Windows when requested MS to remove Media Player, that shouldn't have to happen

You're right, the governments should stay out of the technology field if they don't understand it, but what are you going to do? Or, are you suggesting that Media Player is something that people don't want? 'Cause the fact that about three copies of MP-less Windows sold in the EU is proof enough that MS is just providing people what they want. It's only politicians and those duped by them who think differently.

On a Mac, if you drag Safari to the trash bin it will not drag the Help system with it

Yes, indicating that while they're both programs designed to show hyperlinked documents, Apple went one way and designed two separate pieces of software to do the same thing, whereas MS built one and then built the other to utilize the first. That's called "reusing code". Just because everyone else does things wrong doesn't make it right.

Debian installer vs. Vista

[norminator]

Actually the Debian installer referenced in the OP won't work on Vista, because there's no boot.ini. So it's not much better than loadlin for Vista. (Unless someone knows of a workaround?)

And now it's time for Zatoichi!

[alpt]

And now it's time to code Zatoichi: http://idiki.dyne.org/wiki/Zatoichi !
Zatoichi is the windows virus, which installs a GNU/Linux distribution and
spreads itself. It was proposed two years ago.
Now, with "goodbye-microsoft", implementing Zatoichi is a piece of cake ^_^