OS Comparisons From the BBC

igb writes "As part of their coverage of the launch of Vista, the BBC last week asked people to submit descriptions of the benefits and drawbacks of their chosen system, and today they've posted responses from two Vista users, a Linux user, and an OS X user. There's nothing earth-shattering here, but it's interesting to see the operating systems compared on a level playing field, and good that the BBC has given equal time to the major alternatives."

Comments

Not level

[suso]

I'm sorry but this is not a level playing field. What this is is acknowledging the competition so as to appear fair and silence advocates, but then show off the latest features of Vista's interface, but not show the same in Linux and OSX. They have been playing this game for long enough that they know that eye candy sells. For goodness sake a Linux user that I work with said he was going to buy Vista just because he thought the box looks cool.

Re:Not level

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'm sorry but this is not a level playing field."

Two on Vista. One for the others. The 1st Vista user sounds like he has never used any OS except Windows yet touts it will give OSX a run for its money. Typical Windows users. Little or no experience on another OS but yet its the greatest thing since sliced bread. As evidence by his statement:

" A huge amount of research has been put into this new version which is evident in everything from the user interface right through to the new security model."

Yeah, much research and security by looking at other operating systems! sigh.

Note in contrast, however, the OSX and Linux dude have had prior experience. That makes their testimony more creditable in my book. But, hey, if you like Vista, more power to yeah.

Re:Not level

[mpe]

I'm sorry but this is not a level playing field. What this is is acknowledging the competition so as to appear fair and silence advocates, but then show off the latest features of Vista's interface, but not show the same in Linux and OSX

It also isn't exactly even handed to have twice as many Vista advocates. It's a bit like having a political program with two Labour, one Tory and one Liberal Democrat...
A very obvious omission was "stick with XP".

Re:Not level

[AikonMGB]

Yes.. I can see that would work extremely well when your window manager is broken and you can't click anything..

If my Windows session is wrecked enough but I still have the ability to use the Start menu, I use it to shutdown the computer so I can boot into Linux.

Aikon-

Mac user

[Veinor]

The Mac user writes: "I find it hard to find things to criticise, except perhaps to say that new versions of iWork and iLife are produced each year and it is hard to resist buying each new version, modestly priced as they are." Does anybody else smell a shill?

Re:Mac user

[XCol]

"I don't remember the last time a programme crashed on me, and OS X itself has never crashed on me." I have to wonder if this guy does anything but play reversi on his Mac. Lord knows I cant make full use of my Macs without at least one drop out or crash a week...

Re:Mac user

[DAharon]

No kidding. That comment invalidates everything he said previously (as if there were anything of significance in any of the blurbs). Give me a friken break! I wasn't born yesterday.

Re:Mac user

[melikamp]

I felt that the criticism for Vista and OSX was kinda weak. May be it's not even about a shill, but rather about not knowing any better. The main issue with the non-free systems is that you cannot tinker with them, but most users do not even realize what they are missing. The Windows guys were, like, "Vista > XP", and the OSX guy was, like, "OSX > XP". Well, duh. Of course the new version is better than the one that's 5 years old--anything less than that would be a disaster. They do not see, though, how limited they are in their ability to customize their systems, both in terms of appearance and functionality, and this limitation is directly linked to the fact that the source is proprietary and the system can only be produced in "one size fits them all" format.

Only the Linux guy was actually capable of providing a reasonable assessment of strengths and weaknesses, thanks to his broader knowledge of OSes and what they are useful for.

Re:Mac user

[aristotle-dude]

"I find it hard to find things to be excited about, given that new rehashes of iWork and iLife are produced each year and it is hard to justify buying each new version, even modestly priced as they are."

There, now the opinion is more realistic. Not really, that is just your opinion. I've got no problem with you having a differing opinion. What I do have a problem with is you being a prick about it and not being willing to accept a differing viewpoint at face value.

Re:Mac user

[mr_matticus]

The problem is an issue of values. You assume that people value the ability to tinker over the value of what is essentially an appliance, which is not true--some people would prefer the Apple "just work" mentality. As computers grow more specialized (media servers, desktop workstations, mobile information devices, etc.), the desire for a self-contained, reliable, attractive solution will only grow.

Some people don't see open source as a virtue, and it's not simply because of Microsoft FUD. Most people I know honestly don't care because they don't want to have to dig around in the depths of the OS. They don't want to compile applications, and they don't care that the same source tree works on four different platforms thanks to elegantly designed tools. As long as there are Windows developers making applications that allow them to do what they want, it's an immaterial advantage. Some don't care that Linux costs nothing, because they never buy Windows either. It comes with their computer, so from their perspective, Windows doesn't cost anything either. If computer makers sold their machines at one price and offered to preinstall Windows for a separate fee, that act alone would be Linux's greatest boon in a decade.

Trying to "educate" users about how "wrong" they are is the fastest way to look like a pretentious computer geek and lose credibility. It's not about "seeing the light," it's about what values people have and which OS most closely matches. People here hate and mock attempts at religious conversions and many seem to resent government deciding what to do with tax dollars, but they have no such problem with pushing their Linux agenda on the masses.

Linux will always be relatively small because its virtues appeal only to a small portion of the population. It can't compete on ease of use with OS X, or the universality of Windows, or on cost with Windows (as long as Windows is bundled with PCs), or on the cohesiveness of OS X, or on many other fronts. Linux is great for tinkerers and those with an allergy to closed source; the rest of the population isn't broken because they don't care about those things.

Re:Mac user

[ClosedSource]

"The main issue with the non-free systems is that you cannot tinker with them, but most users do not even realize what they are missing."

You mean they're missing the opportunity to tinker their way to disaster?

Re:Mac user

[mr_matticus]

I wouldn't call it a pessimistic view. Linux works fine, and it's a valid desktop operating system. But there's nothing that makes in intrinsically superior for Windows customers. Your example points to the problem most OSes will face: people spend most of their time in web browsers these days. Being able to locate a familiar icon and use a familiar application isn't an indicator that someone can use Linux. Any idiot can use a mouse and understand the now-basic desktop metaphor.

What happens when they need to install a driver? There is no step-by-step process to follow. Hell, even updating video drivers requires you to know to type ./ before the (ridiculously long) filename just to get it to run. Both nVidia and ATi do a crappy job of modifying the X config files. It's easy to use if you don't do anything with it other than use the software it comes with. Where Linux fails is in the tasks that aren't as common, but are essential in order to keep customers (driver installation, software updates, installation, maintenance, plug-ins, basic troubleshooting, human-readable help files).

I'm not sure what your last paragraph means. If Dell or Gateway wanted to cut costs and install Linux, what's stopping them? Deals with Microsoft giving them licenses for $25 or less. The costs involved in supporting Linux are far greater than that, and Linux would generate many more support calls because of its inferior driver system and its utter lack of a device manager (IMO, Windows' device manager is better than either OS X or Linux, but in OS X's defense, Software Update works extremely well for new drivers/firmware).

Don't take this as a serious rebuttal, as the only serious point is that your example doesn't prove anything other than people recognize the Firefox icon (a victory in and of itself!).

FTFA

[fabs64]

"The most unique new feature is called Readyboost. When you're having performance issues due to insufficient memory, you can use a USB flash drive as an additional cache of memory to boost performance."

Wh... WHAT?!

Sounds like a good way to wear out a flash drive..

Re:FTFA

[iluvcapra]

Does it use the thumbdrive as core or swap?

The first would work horribly, the second ... horribly, but might wear your thumbdrive down slightly slower.

Either way, it will shuttup any "insufficient memory" alerts Vista may throw up, thus it's a feature: "Look how easy it is for me to add extra memory to my computer! How cool is that!" The fact that Vista consumes a gig or so of RAM just doing it's thing is simply above a casual user, thus such band-aids are effective.

No to look too far down my nose at anyone, but this feature is for shit, and the guy who came up with it doesn't know how computers work.

Unique feature?

[Anubis350]

FTA: "The most unique new feature is called Readyboost. When you're having performance issues due to insufficient memory, you can use a USB flash drive as an additional cache of memory to boost performance."

Unique? That's Virtual Memory. Sure, the fact that it's easy (may be) a good thing (though how many people are going to keep an empty flash drive around for this? Easier to get the kid down the street to install more ram for you and be done with it if you cant do it yourself. However, unique? I can put a swap file on flash drive and itd do the same thing...

This is a good start

[JoshJ]

The linux advocate pointed out the free software license, contrasting it with "piracy". Hopefully this is the start of free software making a real impact in the mainstream media.

It's Filler

[Bullfish]

This is just filler for BBC's tech page. There is no real detail given on any of the operating systems other than, "it's cool, I like it". Before anyone says they should've said this and should've said that, this is aimed at people who know squat about computers, less about OS's and will likely read this article on page 5 of their newspaper. It was probably tossed on the desk of some rookie rerporter at five minutes to quitting time.

Insecure much?

[XCol]

"It is clean, uncluttered and lets me get on with my tasks. When I see Windows' reminders, popups, and other interruptions, I appreciate its absence in OS X." Isn't it funny that the only person to sledge their non-choice of OS was a Mac user?

Re:Insecure much?

[Helios1182]

Compare the amount of user interaction with the OS in Vista and OSX and you will see what he means. It is very rare that OSX gives messages or prompts to the user.

Re:Insecure much?

[aristotle-dude]

"It is clean, uncluttered and lets me get on with my tasks.When I see Windows' reminders, popups, and other interruptions, I appreciate its absence in OS X."Isn't it funny that the only person to sledge their non-choice of OS was a Mac user? Did you totally miss that the guy was a switcher from windows? That might be why he mentioned the contrast between the two systems. You might want to loosen that tinfoil hat a little.

Re:Insecure much?

[Anonymous Coward]

twitter, please read this carefully. Following this advice will make Slashdot a better place for everyone, including yourself.

• As a representative of the Linux community, participate in mailing list and newsgroup discussions in a professional manner. Refrain from name-calling and use of vulgar language. Consider yourself a member of a virtual corporation with Mr. Torvalds as your Chief Executive Officer. Your words will either enhance or degrade the image the reader has of the Linux community.
• Avoid hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims at all costs. It's unprofessional and will result in unproductive discussions.
• A thoughtful, well-reasoned response to a posting will not only provide insight for your readers, but will also increase their respect for your knowledge and abilities.
• Always remember that if you insult or are disrespectful to someone, their negative experience may be shared with many others. If you do offend someone, please try to make amends.
• Focus on what Linux has to offer. There is no need to bash the competition. Linux is a good, solid product that stands on its own.
• Respect the use of other operating systems. While Linux is a wonderful platform, it does not meet everyone's needs.
• Refer to another product by its proper name. There's nothing to be gained by attempting to ridicule a company or its products by using "creative spelling". If we expect respect for Linux, we must respect other products.
• Give credit where credit is due. Linux is just the kernel. Without the efforts of people involved with the GNU project , MIT, Berkeley and others too numerous to mention, the Linux kernel would not be very useful to most people.
• Don't insist that Linux is the only answer for a particular application. Just as the Linux community cherishes the freedom that Linux provides them, Linux only solutions would deprive others of their freedom.
• There will be cases where Linux is not the answer. Be the first to recognize this and offer another solution.

From http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/docs/HOWTO/Advoca cy

Drawbacks?

[Add_Water]

"requires more resources", "is less widespread than the competition", "it is hard to resist buying each new version" are these the real drawbacks? And where's the comparisons the headline talks about? It looks like they picked 4 fanboys comments and posted them. And why are there 2 comments about Vista, and just one of each other oses? Because windows has a bigger market share?

Re:Drawbacks?

[Falladir]

Because they told the first guy they would publish his comments before they realized that despite having used windows since 3.1, he knew jack-all about it. Here's a summary of his comments, rendered in caveman-speak:

"I use windows long time. Now it pretty! When changing between programs it VERY pretty! But my flash drive doesn't work any more."

Seriously, how can a major news source publish "it just adds to the overall experience." Seriously.

I can't respect a guy who's so utterly hung up on the eye candy. Having my window manager respond instantaneously (go, fluxbox, go!) turns me on much more than it ever would to see 2d windows rendered in 3d perspective.

Possibly false assertion from the Linux guy??

[Anonymous Coward]

Also, unlike Vista and OS X, Linux provides comprehensive support for languages such as Gaelic and Welsh.

I believe this to be false, and I am assuming it is coming from someone who has never used OS X. I just looked in System Preferences, and they are indeed there under International (you need to look under its native name, e.g. "Cymraeg" for Welsh -- it's hidden under the "Edit" button). OS X was built with Unicode in mind. OS X even comes with built-in support for the Inuktitut (Eskimo) language for chrissakes!! (Try visiting http://www.gov.nu.ca/inuktitut/ in Safari --- that is rendered in the default font!!)

I use both Linux and OS X heavily, but stuff like this doesn't lend the Linux camp any credibilty IMHO.

Re:Possibly false assertion from the Linux guy??

[Weedlekin]

Did you not read the post you're replying to? There is no Irish or Welsh version of OS X because _OS X directly supports_ approximately 100 languages or variants of languages out of the box, plus a bunch of other localisation details, all of which can be applied on a per-user basis. Thus, my Mac has users set up for me in British English (I have several users optimised for different tasks), and users for my wife and her daughters in Spanish because that's their native language, and this per-user localisation not only affects menus, shortcuts, etc., but also application programs which, if written according to Apple guidelines (easy to follow if one uses Apple's Interface Builder UI design tool), will use the chosen language for text, dialogs, spell-checking, sorting, etc.

Thus, if I had a friend who wanted to work in Afrikaans, Korean, Arabic, Hebrew, Catalan, Kanji, Swahili, etc., etc., etc., I could add users for them that used those languages by the simple expedient of selecting the International section of Apple's System Preferences app, if necessary adding their language to the default list by clicking a button and putting a check-mark next to it, and then dragging that language to the top of said list (and if necessary, setting other localisation parameters to reflect their calendar types, currency and number formats, etc., etc.).

Re:Good to see the alternatives get some face time

[spencerg83]

I was surprised that none of the Vista users had complaints (well, maybe it is no surprise due to the fact they weren't entirely critical). I subscribe to Maximum PC magazine, and they shred the crap out of Vista-- sure, they love the eye-candy and other handy things that Vista has to offer over Windows XP, but the editors of Maximum PC wrote another article detailing about 10 things they hate about Vista, including ridiculous DRM software, redundant program install prompts, AND the fact that it will have compatibility issues with a lot of software on the market today (well, the latter is to be expected as newly released OS's run into this). In the end, they recommend putting off the whole upgrade for at least a year (when PC games will catch up to DirectX10, and when hardware will be more compatible with the new OS).

Oh, and they absolutely hate the high-dollar price tag, and the scaled software packages (Home Basic, Home Premium, Business, Ultimate).

I'll stick with my XP for now and upgrade when I need to, for gaming's sake.

The virus argument

[SirSlud]

FTFA:

Another significant advantage with Linux is that, unlike in Windows, there is no need to worry about security since viruses are very rare, no virus has yet spread successfully on the platform.

1. I do not like windows.
2. I used to develop on freeBSD and linux (now Windows because I am a game production developer, it comes with the job.)
3. This argument about viruses has absolutely no basis since if an OS is not widely used, it simply isn't an attractive commercial target for virus/adware writers. I wish Linux/OSX cheerleaders would not use this point in listing the merits of a system beause nobody can convince me that if everyone used Linux or everyone used OSX to the degree that Windows dominates the market (and especially the novice computer user market with respect to Linux) this argument would neccessarily hold up. (It might hold up, I'm just sayin that right now theres no way to know.)

Re:The virus argument

[Just Some Guy]

This argument about viruses has absolutely no basis since if an OS is not widely used, it simply isn't an attractive commercial target for virus/adware writers.

Except that it's true. If you were a spammer, would you rather own a botnet of Win98 machines on dialup, or a cluster of Unix boxes sitting on a fiber ring? And why has Apache had so very few in-the-wild exploits compared to IIS?

There are far fewer Unix machines than Windows, true, but I'd say that the typical Unix host would be a far more attractive prize than the typical Windows desktop.

Re:The virus argument

[Slashcrunch]

Sorry SirSlud, but market share does not mean automatically being targeted by malware writers. If it did, the Apache server would be quite the delicious target. Targeting Windows machines is commercially viable because it is a widespread *and* a soft target. If it wasn't soft, it wouldn't be exploited as widely as it is.

What matters

[Reality Master 101]

Here's the only comparison of operating systems that matters to the vast majority of people:

Software Selection:

Windows: The most and best selection
OS/X: Far less than Windows, but still serviceable
Linux: The least selection and most crude.

People use applications, not operating systems.

Re:What matters

[dangitman]

Not only does linux have thousands of applications, I would venture to say that you have never used Amarok, Gimp or a dozen other programs that outstip any comercial equivelent.

Well, you must be clinically insane. GIMP outstrips any commercial equivalent?? It doesn't even come close to Photoshop. It's not even in the same category. I think you might be the troll here. The fact is that while there are plenty of applications for Linux, most of them are far less functional than the best commercial software. It would be nice if this wasn't true, but it is. For example, show me where you can get a Linux video editing application that even comes close to commercial counterparts like Final Cut Pro or Avid.

Translations and Corrections.

[twitter]

On average, a RANDOM 4K read from flash is about 10x faster than from HDD. Now, how does that translate to end-user perf? Under memory pressure and heavy disk activity, the system is much more responsive; on a 4GB machine with few applications running, the ReadyBoost effect is much less noticeable.

Translation: You want 4GB of RAM to run Vista.

Q Isn't user data on a removable device a security risk? A: This was one of our first concerns and to mitigate this risk, we use AES-128 to encrypt everything that we write to the device.

Unsaid: it was much easier to leave the contents encrypted than it was to create an additional "security risk." This probably has something to do with them encrypting all of your data for the "trusted path."

Ever hear of the hybrid hard drive?

Yes, but I would not buy one programed by Microsoft. We shall see if their 10 year life estimate holds water any more than their previous claims to safe data storage and secure computing.

Don't you just hate how they are paying people to fill Wikipedia with this kind of spam? No bother, the truth will out.

Sterotypical

[SuperKendall]

I felt that the criticism for Vista and OSX was kinda weak. May be it's not even about a shill, but rather about not knowing any better. The main issue with the non-free systems is that you cannot tinker with them, but most users do not even realize what they are missing.

Yet another person lost in the stereotyped view of OS X users as clueless Noobs, who know not what an OS is.

Sorry, but the number of people who use OS X and are equally at home configuring any other UNIX system are legion. We are just people who got tired of having to configure things, and wanted to tinker with applications or other development instead of the OS that run them or even the window manager we interact with daily. I know a fair amount of about the kernel, about launchd, even about the filesystem and lots of other internal aspects of OS X I can use to configure the system just as well as any Linux system - but I am also happy with good defaults out of the gate that mean my tinkering is for fun, and not a matter of Getting the Damn System Functional.

I really don't understand how people so seemingly apt in their ability to configure all aspects of Linux systems can rain such heavy critisims down on OSX users, where really the only constraint I face in tinkering with the system is the equivilent of a somewhat locked down window manager in Linux. After having used TWM, CTWM, GWM, KDE, and Gnome (among others) I don't mind a window manager that is pleasing an performs well without much tweaking.

Re:Sterotypical

[simm1701]

Not to mention expose! Ok linux has similar but I've never had time to mess around with it enough - the mac just works - and it is a full blown unix under the GUI.

The hardware also just works! Its just a shame you pay a premium for it.

I've used pretty much everything out there (bar VMS), I've installed linux on $1m IBM servers, I've built kernels from source for my desktop, I've worked as a tester on several open source projects.

Right now, on the balance of all things, I would honestly say OSX is the superior desktop purely because you have almost every benefit that linux has (for the user - not the FOSS evangelist) without any of the configuration/maintenance pain.

I would really like to see linux desktops follow OSX in this, rather than trying to model on windows - to a certain extent they are doing, but there is definitely still ground to be made up.

FYI my current desktop? dual boot laptop, windows (OEM with the system and used for games when I can't be bothered to get winex working) and ubuntu. The laptop was 500 quid less than a apple that would meet my requirements (256Mb descrete graphics card)

Good money after bad

[element-o.p.]

It can't compete...on cost with Windows (as long as Windows is bundled with PCs)...

I disagree.

At face value, you are right. You buy a computer, it comes with Windows pre-installed, IE, Outlook, maybe even Office. You and I know that you paid for the software in the purchase price, you just didn't see that cost since you were going to pay it even if you wanted Linux or x86 Solaris or FreeBSD or... So, it looks like Linux can't compete on cost with Windows.

Then you get infected with a worm or trojan because the anti-virus software installed on your computer didn't come with free updates for then next N months. Now you have to buy a subscription to McAfee, or Norton, or Kaspersky (or if you're really smart Nod32, but I digress), and that is a re-occurring cost every year. Because you've done some homework, you also buy firewall software from McAfee or Symantec or (shudder) Black Ice. Yes, XP comes with a firewall, but you want the reporting features and ability to block by program that a commercial product offers. Oh, but you're getting a lot of crap in your e-mail, so you also buy mail filtering software. Then your thirteen year old, who knows way more about computers than you ever will (okay, this is /. so that's probably not true for this subset of computer users, but assume you aren't a geek for a minute) is taking programming classes at school, so you buy Visual Basic and Visual C++, and so on.

Now how much cheaper is that Windows computer than Linux? There are free (as in speech and as in beer) alternatives for each of these problems available for Linux.

So, yeah, the initial purchase price may be equivalent, but after that, you are just throwing good money after bad. But that's just my opinion. YMMV :)

Surprising bias against Windows from supporters

[AYeomans]

I was surprised by the trailing remarks from the Windows supporters:
"I really think that this one's going to give Apple Macs a run for their money." i.e. Mac have been clearly in the lead and Vista is just catching up.
"I see windows Vista as a big improvement over Windows XP and would strongly suggest other PC users who have not explored beyond the Windows camp to upgrade." i.e. if you've already tried Mac or Linux there's no reason to look at Vista.
Doesn't seem completely balanced reporting to me to have that level of ambivalence from the Windows supporters.

Can't he get the empty box on eBay for half-price?

[Shag]

Seems like that's usually the way it works, after all.

You fail reading comprehension

[GalionTheElf]

He didn't say MS shouldn't steal others ideas (everyone does it), he's saying that the guy is making a flawed statement, highlighting his lack of experience with anything non-windows. If he knew anything about the _ancient_ *nix security model, he wouldn't act like this is some amazing ms invention.

Also saying that if you wouldn't use anyone else's ideas, you'd use linux is incredibly funny, as linux is, at it's most basic level, a reverse-engineered unix.