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Indonesia Stops Sharing Avian Virus Samples
dankrabach writes "Indonesia has apparently decided to play the IP game, with the world's health at stake. The country, one of the hardest-hit by avian flu, has stopped submitting virus samples to the World Health Organization, and is negotiating to sell them to an American drug company that makes the vaccine. They feel slighted when they give away such samples, but then cannot afford the patented vaccines. Logical to me, given the rules of the game; however, can't we come up with some GPL'ish license to free any product based on this data?"
Looks like we're going to have to wait for the pirates to bring a few hundred million copies over through the airports, wide-open borders, by sea, or other means. Couldn't they have put some DRM into this?
Seriously can't wait to get my copies!
Zhrodague.net - I do projects and stuff too.
I live near where a recent 'outbreak' of Avian Flu has occurred in England. Forgive me for perhaps not seeing the bigger picture, but what's the big deal? regular flu kills more people every winter in the UK alone than Avian Flu has the world over - ever. AFAIK anyway.
Maybe make pricing inversely proportional to the number of samples provided?
--- Asking inconvenient questions for over 30 years...
Instead of "Indonesia has apparently decided to play the IP game, with the world's health at stake.", you could easily say "American Drug company decided to play the IP game, with Indonesia's health at stake."
I'd be pissed too if i was indonesia.
American Companies would just form joint 'research' partnerships (or some other shell game) with European/African/Asian/Any company & buy it through that.
Vaccines are problematic, because they're expensive to test, usually expensive to manufacture, and aren't needed year round. Companies don't want to make 'em because they aren't ludicrously profitable like every other patented drug out there.
Compulsory licensing (of the patent) is another option, but it ruffles feathers.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
My work here is dung.
Considering the amounts of money involved, I suspect the only thing that is going to change is that American drug companies will send their own people into the field in Indonesia to collect their own samples.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
What are you, some kind of commie, pinko, free-market hating anti-American scumbags? This is the free market we're talking about, it's power is Divine and it can do no wrong. Sharing things is bad, we should be charging for everything. I mean, if these Avian Virus samples aren't privately owned, we might be facing the dreaded Tragedy of the Commons here! Sharing of scientific data is socialism, plain and simple, and it goes against everything America stands for: profit at the expense of all else.
Seriously, though, I wonder how long it wil be before some misguided Libertarian offers up a serious excuse as to why this is a good thing. I can't wait, it's been a while since I've seen a good contortionist show.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
...only outlaws will have viruses.
Hey, I actually like the sound of that.
I can really see why they feel slighted - after all, collection of samples for the WHO is not a process without its costs and hazards. It's not like they're collecting bread mold or something.
Perhaps approaching the WHO looking for some form of compensation for sample collection could be attempted. Perhaps it already has been. But anyone who has dealt with a global scale NGO, especially a UN agency, knows that the bureaucracy involved makes even the most overburdened of national government bureaucracies look like a model of efficiency.
Still, though, I have to wonder about the claims that Indonesia cannot afford to purchase the vaccines. Indonesia is one of the most populous countries in the world, and seems more than able to afford many of the trappings of a modern industrialized nation. Their GDP is close to a trillion dollars US. Is it possible that a certain amount of their stand on this issue is posturing? Or to the benefit of one particular agency or department of their government? Follow the money to its destination and more would begin to be clear.
"Forbid any American drug company from buying the samples. Problem solved."
I guess this is why geeks aren't called to solve world problems. It isn't an "American" problem, but an economic one. As the other poster pointed out vaccines cost money to develop, and test. A GPL license isn't going to solve that problem. A socialist solution were the entire planet pays for the process might. But then "the world" isn't noted for working together for the common good either.
From the summary:
They feel slighted when they give away such samples, but then cannot afford the patented vaccines.
And the Shah of Iran in 1973, just before the oil crisis:
"Of course [the world price of oil] is going to rise," the Shah told the New York Times in 1973. "Certainly! And how...; You [Western nations] increased the price of wheat you sell us by 300%, and the same for sugar and cement...; You buy our crude oil and sell it back to us, redefined as petrochemicals, at a hundred times the price you've paid to us...; It's only fair that, from now on, you should pay more for oil. Let's say ten times more."
No real point. Just found the similarities interesting.
By summer it was all gone...now shesmovedon. --
I doubt it. The GPL works because individual programmers receive some sort of personal, non-monetary benefit from contributing to a GPL project -- the reputation, the joy of coding, etc. No similar incentive exists for drug companies to engage in costly research without the proceeds that come from patents. The GPL also works because for-profit players have an incentive to give back their own coding: so that it can be incorporated into the code tree and not require them to reimplement it every time a new version comes out. Again, there is no analogous market force to compel drug companies to give back changes, or even to make the changes in the first place. Finally, the GPL is largely enforceable because it is usually very straightforward to ascertain whether GPL'ed code is in fact being used in violation of the GPL: the software company cannot destroy the evidence or allow it to decay because they need to keep the source code to continue development. I imagine that it is not so easy to determine whether a particular medical advance was inspired by pseudo-GPL'ed samples.
It seems to me that that country's approach is fair and effective. Alternatively they might consider contractually binding recipients of their samples to offer them the resulting patented medication at cost.
No. Drug companies don't play games like this. None will sink money into developing a vaccine based on a virus sample if they cannot be granted exclusive rights to produce that vaccine for a period of time. They'll go spend their R&D dollars on fighting developing some other drug that they can use to rake in big stinking piles of cash instead.
That's the way capitalism works - when people decide what to invest in, they rarely look at putting money behind something that they realize is not likely to give them a large return out of the goodness of their hearts. They figure out what's going to make them the most money. The market is not known for rewarding altruism. As a result, any drug company that wants to continue to exist as a drug company is going to do very little in the way of charity research, and instead do the kind of stuff that attracts capital.
The only way we're going to get drug research without patent protection is to start some sort of government agency whose primary purpose is to do this stuff. But good luck getting that to happen (in the US, anyway) voters don't have a history of being in favor of things like this, and the drug industry would viciously lobby against any sort of government-sponsored competitor.
ANOTHER license. I'm so sick of hearing about licensing.
I know everyone is going to side with Indonesia...in fact, I think they should do what they need to do in order to secure their own access to medicines derived from the samples they give. However, if it were the U.S holding virus samples hostage for its own benefit, people would be calling for blood.
Another perfect example of hypocrisy. People want everything equal until someone or something they don't like gets to exercise the same equality.
If drug companies cannot patent a sell a cure for hundreds a dose (see for example the current controversial HPV vaccine) they will not develop the cure. They are far too busy working on penis pills to work about something that will kill 60% of the world population anyway.
That's the rule, that's what corporations do, that's America! If they don't they very quickly get thrown out by the shareholders and replaced by those that understand this rule. Why are people shocked?
Nobody in their right mind expects Indonesians will be able to afford the vaccine, they will die en mass. This is why we have universities and the WHO, where scientists who haven't crossed over to the dark side develop cures for things.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
Playing devil's advocate, I think a bird flu pandemic is exactly what this planet needs right now. We've added a billion people and welcomed two billion+ populated nations to the industrialized world and we're destroying most of our natural resources. I think a pandemic that could potentially reduce this burden, especially in SE Asia where those countries seem hell bent on destroying the environment in just about every way. Call me sick, but I don't have faith in humanity to reel itself in when it comes to development and consuming more and more in the future. The only solution is fewer consumers.
I'd get pretty tired of that, too. This isn't "playing the IP game, with the world's health at stake". This is fighting back against the IP trolls, who are holding the world's health hostage.
The Indonesians are pissed off with the Australians *not* the Americans. Read this article from The Jakarta Post: http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp? fileid=20070208.A03&irec=2
"The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
A vaccine is hard to make.
A vaccine is expensive to make.
If there's no profit, there's no incentive.
If there's no funding, there's no resources.
Tragic, but you don't want to do the work - no matter how helpful - if it doesn't put food on your table and a movie on your TV.
Sure you can volunteer a bit, but only if it doesn't harm your personal bottom line.
What are YOU doing to prepare the Avian Flu vaccine? Thought so.
In the long-shot chance you _are_ working on an Avian Flu vaccine, are you doing it for free? Thought so.
Yes, it makes sense for drug companies to charge a fortune for the Avian Flu vaccine - it will cost them a fortune to create it.
Yes, it makes sense for Indonesia to make arrangements to assure they get the vaccine (either thru barter or billing).
Yes, it sounds perverse to sell the disease to buy the cure.
Welcome to the real world.
You don't cure a pandemic for free.
You got a better idea?
Can we get a "-1 Wrong" moderation option?
This is exactly the scenario for which I'm paying taxes. I'm already gainfully employed, and there are a good chunk of people who are a lot better than me at creating vaccines. Taxes are supposed to be transferred from me (who is offering a service that is in immediate demand) to someone who is offering a service with delayed demand. Instead, what are we paying taxes for? Some dumb ass bridge to nowhere. Statues of politicians who ought to be in prison. Pork that reaches hundreds of billions of dollars in total.
Here's my idea: make every politician pay for pork out of his own pocket. I'm sure that suddenly there'll be a couple of billion dollars left over from my (and yours and everybody elses) taxes to fund some serious research into a bird-flu vaccine. I'm also not opposed to shooting politicians who dole out pork, but some might consider that animal-cruelty.
See, the free-market has known limitations, and we have solutions to the problems that a free-market economy has. The problem is neither the free market (nor your implied accusation that people want to have their cake and eat it too), but the fact that our current political system is unable to deal with any crisis, due to the corruption of its actors (politicians) and the overall greed, lazyness and stupidity of its stakeholders (the voters). I fully expect that if a crisis hits, we'll be run by a dictator in a heartbeat. Sort of like now, except all out and fully accepted by everyone.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
Something important with national and international importance obviously cannot be left to "the market" and commercial interests. It is long overdue to nationalize all drug companies and let the government(s) decide what research is done and what not (viagra etc.).
Instead of the usual situation where virus samples go to Big Pharma, who make patented vaccine, and get rich saving the developed world and wealthy people in the developing world, while Indonesian proles get neither vaccine nor money, we'll have the situation where virus samples go to one part of Big Pharma, who will (hopefully) make vaccine, and get rich saving the developed world and rich people in the developing world, and send royalties back to already rich Indonesians. Again, Indonesian proles will get neither vaccine nor money.
This is just a cynical money grab by the Indonesian elite, and, worse, by restricting who gets access to virus samples they just might be delaying the development of a vaccine that will save millions of lives.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
I think this is quite reasonable of them. If they were giving the samples for free, and then told "you have to pay a price for the vaccine", a price they were not able to afford, then it is only fair for them to say that "we contributed the sample, which lead to the vaccine, therefore we deserve a) a share of the profits from the vaccine or b) rights to the vaccine for a reduced cost".
The easiest way to achieve this is to charge for the samples, effectively providing funding for the purchase of the vaccine. Seems quite reasonable to me.
I hate printers.
As a long-time Jakarta resident I have but one comment to make on this sorry state of affairs - whatever money changes hands, it will only go to enrich certain members of the greedy ruling elite in this corruption-riddled country. The poor will see neither monetary relief nor cheap vaccine.