No Closed Video Drivers For Next Ubuntu Release

lisah writes "Ubuntu's next release, Feisty Fawn, is due out in April and, according to company CTO Matt Zimmerman, proprietary video drivers failed to make the cut for the default install. Zimmerman told Linux.com that although the software required for Composite support is not ready for prime-time and therefore will not be included in Feisty, Ubuntu hasn't given up entirely on including video drivers in future releases. '[T]he winds aren't right yet. We will continue to track development and will revisit the decision if things change significantly.' Ambiguous or not, the decision to exclude proprietary drivers for now should satisfy at least some members of the Ubuntu Community. In other Feisty Fawn news, the Board also decided to downgrade support for Power PC due to a lack of funding." Linux.com and Slashdot are both part of OSTG.

Comments

Before the flamewars start

[Anonymous Coward]

This is in no way an "ideological" decision but a pragmatic one.

The propietary 3d drivers would have been included because the original plan was to support a 3d desktop (like compiz and beryl) out of the box.
As it has now become obvious that these desktops are not yet stable enough to be the default, there isn't any need to include the propietary drivers.

Re:Before the flamewars start

[MrvFD]

The only thing that bothers me is that they add to the confusion by not dismissing the general "proprietary drivers == 3D desktop" point of view. In summary, Intel integrated graphics have 3D desktop with the free drivers, ATI Radeon up to quite new X850-series have 3D desktop with the free drivers, and by the time of feisty+1 we just might have 3D desktop working on the free Nouveau drivers for NVIDIA cards. Not the top speed of course in case of reverse-engineered ATI/NVIDIA drivers, but enough.

The situation is even more interesting considering that the proprietary ATI drivers (that are required for the X1000-series to have even 2D support) don't support Composite with AIGLX, the default in Ubuntu and X.org, while the reverse-engineered open source driver does. I think it is one aspect that has been affecting this decision - why include proprietary drivers if they don't even work.

It is to be admitted though that NVIDIA has such a large market share (probably 20-30% of all desktop and laptop PCs, compared to ca. 50% with Intel integrated graphics), that it partly makes the issue "3D needs proprietary drivers"-like, until Nouveau gets usable.

misleading title

[Verunks]

the driver will not be enabled by default, but they will be still present in ubuntu

nope, you can't read this

[Anonymous Coward]

01110100011010000110100101110011001000000110110101 10010101110011011100110110000101100111011001010010 00000110100101110011001000000110000100100000011000 10011010010110111001100001011100100111100100100000 01100010011011000110111101100010001000000111010001 10100001100001011101000010000001111001011011110111 01010010000001110011011010000110111101110101011011 00011001000010000001101101011011110110010000100000 01110100011011110010000000101011001101010010000001 11011101101001011101000110100001101111011101010111 01000010000001100001011100110110101101101001011011 10011001110010000001110001011101010110010101110011 0111010001101001011011110110111001110011

Re:nope, you can't read this

[moranar]

The binary says:

this message is a binary blob that you should mod to +5 without asking questions

Re:nope, you can't read this

[markov_chain]

Is it a sailboat?

Re:nope, you can't read this

[Minwee]

It's not a sailboat, it's a schooner.

...and can be easily enabled when...

[aeneas]

.. trying to turn on the 3D desktop.

--snip--
    * However, new infrastructure will be implemented which allows the user to
          trivially enable both enhanced desktop effects and the necessary driver
          support.
--snip--

more than just desktops,

[Aeron65432]

Or maybe we complain just because we like our Tuxracer, UT, Doom3, and desktops to be ready to go when started.

Or, it could be because installing ATI drivers (for those of you out there who've done it know this) is an absolute pain in the ass on Ubuntu. When I installed NVidia drivers on my friends laptop, I groaned because it was so convenient.

People would complain if OpenOffice, Firefox, and some kind of movie/music didn't come packaged with Feisty Fawn, and for good reason! They are essentials to the system! I think it's really too bad they probably won't be included.

Re:more than just desktops,

[dinivin]

Or, it could be because installing ATI drivers (for those of you out there who've done it know this) is an absolute pain in the ass on Ubuntu.

What's so difficult about:

% sh ./ati-driver-installer-8.33.6-x86.x86_64.run --buildpkg Ubuntu/6.10
% dpkg -i *deb

Re:more than just desktops,

[G3ckoG33k]

"What's so difficult about:

% sh ./ati-driver-installer-8.33.6-x86.x86_64.run --buildpkg Ubuntu/6.10
% dpkg -i *deb"

How about:

# sh ./ati-driver-installer-8.33.6-x86.x86_64.run --buildpkg Ubuntu/6.10
# dpkg -i *deb

Re:more than just desktops,

[cortana]

The difficulty comes later on when you need to install or upgrade something else and the shitty packages built by the idiots at ATI who know nothing about how Debian-based systems are put together break.

Do yourself a favour and stick with the official packages: http://packages.debian.org/src:fglrx-driver

Re:more than just desktops,

[robinvanleeuwen]

"How about:
# sh ./ati-driver-installer-8.33.6-x86.x86_64.run --buildpkg Ubuntu/6.10
# dpkg -i *deb"

On my laptop a compaq r4000 with a bcm43xx pcmcia network controller and ubuntu
6.10, xorg 7.1, beryl, and a ati 200M XPRESS controller it was a nightmare to get
it all working together. Either my nic would fail, graphics would fail, x would fail
, all would fail at the same time. I tried ndiswrapper, my system hangs on that one.
(three different versions of ndiswrapper). All on amd64.

After a week or so trying different versions of all programs involved i came up with
the right settings. A custom kernel 2.6.18.1, ati driver 8.29.6, x windows 7.1.1,
If i try a newer kernel, the ati drivers won't compile, if i try an older kernelversion
my wlan isn't properly supported, so i'm stuck at 2.6.18.1, and i want xen to run on
my laptop, which uses 2.6.17.x i think so i'm out ofluck...

I think they did a good job postponing the option of a beryl/compiz/xgl/aixgl setup
in ubuntu. If you get it working it's quite cool and worth the trouble. IMHO this kind
of thing is always worth the trouble (i have a relatively high geek factor).

Re:more than just desktops,

[MMC Monster]

Actually, I thought the above post should be marked funny. Yes, it's relatively simple and I've done similar for my nvidia drivers in the past. The problem is, you really can't expect end users to use a CLI to install anything.

End users should be told to go to one place. For now, that's synaptic. Maybe in the future it will be some click'n'run thing. Don't instruct them to

1. download a driver from a particular website.

2. open up a shell.

3. enter a cryptic line.

4. pray.

Plus, is the CLI way going to survive when a kernel upgrade is released? Presumably when the proprietary drivers are in synaptic they will be updated to work with the kernel updates.

Re:more than just desktops,

[605dave]

"What's so difficult about: % sh ./ati-driver-installer-8.33.6-x86.x86_64.run --buildpkg Ubuntu/6.10 % dpkg -i *deb" Wow, and you people wonder why Linux hasn't taken hold for the average consumer. Sure it isn't difficult to type that line, but it looks confusing and intimidating to the average person. And that answer is always slightly condescending too, implying someone is an idiot for not knowing the obvious solution. Linux will not succeed anytime soon on the desktop market, because the geeks who make it don't respect the non-geeks who would use it.

Re:more than just desktops,

[bberens]

Yep, I'm one of those linux users that can probably get it working if I really want to but for the most part if yum install [whatever] doesn't pick it up with my extended repository list it's just not getting installed on my Fedora box. While it's not exactly pertinent to Ubuntu it's basically the same idea. Even people who are capable of doing the work are less likely to do it because it's a pain.

Re:more than just desktops,

[Stormwatch]

Honestly, what do people expect? It's a fucking *nix.

How was that again... "Mac OS X. Because making UNIX user-friendly was easier than fixing Windows."

Re:more than just desktops,

[samkass]

>> The problem is, you really can't expect end users to use a CLI to install anything.
>
>Why? Why is it so unreasonable to expect people to know how to use their computer?

"Using a CLI" != "Using a computer". "Using" a computer should be about identifying what you want to create, edit, contribute, read, etc., then being able to do so in the easiest way possible. Maybe that's a CLI for you, but for most people double-clicking on an icon, or even having something already done so you don't have to worry about it at all, is a lot easier.

I thought you people lost these arguments in the late 80's. 20 years later and you STILL think CLI's should be necessary to perform basic functions on your computer?

Between putting dogma over usability and insisting everyone else should use a computer like a developer prefers to, combined with the big split in the licensing models coming up with GPLv3, I foresee some dark days ahead for open source on the desktop.

Re:more than just desktops,

[Blakey Rat]

Typing in the stuff isn't difficult.

Figuring out what to type in is. Rebooting, then coming up with a text screen because "startx" failed and there's nothing but an instruction telling you to restore your backed-up config (with, of course, no instructions on HOW to do that or, even better, an option to automatically do it)... that's very difficult.

Of course typing in those commands *is* difficult for somebody who's visually (or otherwise) impaired. You can install a driver on Windows or OS X using a screen-reader... try typing in 6-x86.x86_64.run with a screen-reader.

Re:more than just desktops,

[mrsbrisby]

Wow, and you people wonder why Linux hasn't taken hold for the average consumer.

I agree. It's all ATI and NVidia's fault.

Let's tell consumers to stop buying their low-quality buggy hardware that require special installation procedures, and maybe they'll stop dragging down the consumers idea of the Linux Desktop.

I have an intel-based graphics setup that works just fine with beryl- no special install voodoo necessary. It might not get quite as many FPS as my coworkers' firegl board, but it never crashes, and never freezes up on me.

He's convinced all he needs to do is tweak some underclocking or somethingrather I don't really understand, but at this point I'm pretty sure a big part of his efforts are there to justify his purchase and vindicate his decision, and that the ATI board really wasn't worth it even to him- an otherwise very technical person.

Maybe after we get ATI/NVidia to stop hurting Linux with their inferior hardware and software, we can get some OEMs- besides TiVO- to actually ship with Linux desktops...

Re:more than just desktops,

[ltbarcly]

Using a CLI requires two things: the ability to read, and the ability to type (even if it's just hunt-and-peck typing). Actually it requires 3 things. Reading, typing, and a working knowledge of the syntax of the command line, precedence of commands, memorization of the 2 dozen or so commands you might use regularly, understanding of the help system to find commands you might need but rarely use, and so on.

Most people aren't smart enough to master this with out hours of formal training. So don't complain that most people don't use a CLI, most people don't use calculus either.

Re:more than just desktops,

[MayonakaHa]

Hot wiring a car only requires the ability to recognize colors and connect some wires together. But people don't expect me to know how to do that in order for me to operate my vehicle. Neither do they expect me to know how to fix it by crawling under the hood and figuring out what's wrong with the engine.

I know how to fix my own car just like I know how to operate Linux using a CLI, but do I expect others to? Nope. While it may be fairly simple, at least to us, it's very intimidating to the average user who would rather stick the keys in the ignition and "make it go" so they can get their work or play going.

Re:more than just desktops,

[rantingkitten]

Guys, I hate to break this to you, but "most users" can't install the drivers on Windows either. You ever walk someone through that process?

"Okay, so go to nvidia.com and find the driver for your card."
"How do I do that?"
"Click Downloads, select your operating system..."
"Is that Windows?"
"Yes. So select that and--"
"It says.. Windows XP slash 2000... Windows 98 slash 95..."
"You're on Windows XP. So select that."
"Okay."
"Now which video card do you have?"
"I don't know."
"Right click on the desktop. Go to properties. Go to Advanced. Do you see it?"
"No."
"Right above the colorful thing."
"Oh. Okay.. uh.."
"..it'll say Nvidia something, or maybe GeForce something."
"Ohhhh. GeForce 5200?"
"Okay, select that then."
"Where?"
"On the WEBSITE."
"Exit out of this?"
"YES, EXIT OUT OF THE PROPERTIES THING AND GO BACK TO THE WEBSITE."
"Okay."
"..."
"..."
"..."
"Did you select the 5200 yet?"
"No, am I supposed to?"
"YES. Click that. Click next."
"Do-I-want-to-download-the-following-file: installer dot exe."
"Yes. Download that."
"Where should I save it?"
"ANYWHERE. The desktop, okay?"
"Okay... it's downloading."
"..."
"Do-I-want-to-run-the-following-application: installer dot exe."
"Yesssss."
"It says.. warning-some-software-can-damage-your-computer-are -you-sure-you--"
"Yes."
"Accept terms and conditions?"
"...yes..."
"This-will-install-nvidia-drivers-blah-blah-blah, continue?"
"...yes..."
"Setup is preparing the... uh, install..shield.. wizard?"
"That's fine, just let it go."
"Do I click Next?"
"YES. YES. JUST KEEP HAMMERING NEXT UNTIL IT SAYS FINISHED."
"Okay. ...it says finished, do I click Ok?"
"YES FOR GOD'S SAKE ALREADY!"
"Okay, now it says I must reboot. Should I do that?"
"@#%"

Yeah. That's much, much easier for most people. The CLI looks intimidating but, to most people, both Windows and Linux CLI are incomprehensible gibberish anyway, so what's the difference?

Re:more than just desktops,

[Blakey Rat]

Really? You thought that the GUI won in the 80's? Which GUI was available then?

Mac OS.

And you think THAT was more powerful than CLI? You're an idiot.

Ask someone interested in desktop publishing. Hell, Apple's Macintosh along with the LaserWriter printer *invented* desktop publishing. Decades of the CLI didn't create it, but only a couple of years with a GUI did.

And for what it's worth, yeah, Mac OS was pretty damned powerful. It wouldn't still be around if it didn't meet people's needs.

3 seconds, no starting a program or using the mouse.

Plus the months of learning curve so that you know what the hell that "cut -f2,3 -d',' file1 | sort > newfile" gibberish even means, not to mention the time taken learning how to create your own gibberish that does what you want. Given a choice between doing an extremely rarely-needed task in 3 seconds with years of learning curve, or doing it in one minute in Excel, I'll pick Excel every time.

These are trivial examples, yes, but you would be shocked to learn how much processing is trivial once you start doing it in an environment that doesn't hold your and and change your diaper for you.

If you're the type of person whose job consists mainly of combining and/or sorting strange random data files over and over again, you might have an argument. Maybe. (Except still not, since it's trivial to run CLI commands in a GUI-- try running GUI tasks like photo editing or desktop publishing in a CLI!)

But that type of person is a very small minority. Face the facts, bud, you're only deluding yourself. I may be an idiot for agreeing with the grandparent poster, but at least I'm not a delusional idiot.

This is the Aqua and Aero "equivalent" ?

[drsmithy]

Apparently what is probably the premier desktop-oriented Linux distro doesn't think it's stable enough to include, but it's just as good - nay, better - than Aqua and Aero ?

Sounds like just another day in Linux-land to me :).

(Aside: I've used Beryl, etc on Ubuntu and it definitely does some cool stuff. To try and suggest it's anything close to the equivalent of OS X's and Vista's offerings, however, ignores some pretty hefty usability issues with regards to getting - and keeping - it working.)

Re:This is the Aqua and Aero "equivalent" ?

[kripkenstein]

Apparently what is probably the premier desktop-oriented Linux distro doesn't think it's stable enough to include, but it's just as good - nay, better - than Aqua and Aero ?

Sounds like just another day in Linux-land to me :).

You are comparing them on one aspect, in which admittably the Linux offerings fall short - stability. But the people who say that Compiz/Beryl are better aren't talking about that, they are referring to other aspects - say, that they require less in the way of hardware (especially vs. Vista), or that they allow a lot more user customization.

So, you are all right.

Re:This is the Aqua and Aero "equivalent" ?

[oohshiny]

Apparently what is probably the premier desktop-oriented Linux distro doesn't think it's stable enough to include, but it's just as good - nay, better - than Aqua and Aero ?

Look who's talking: OS X 10.4 has most OpenGL acceleration disabled by default because Apple doesn't consider it release-ready; to enable them, you have to dig around with low-level settings. The only hardware-accelerated desktop operations in 10.4 appear to be texture operations. And Vista apparently has serious problems with 3D graphics drivers not quite doing what they are supposed to (see FPS story earlier).

Don't kid yourself: none of this stuff is new and neither Apple nor Microsoft pioneered it. The reason they are all coming to market with this functionality in mainstream systems at around the same time now is because hardware is finally cheap enough and fast enough to do so. If Linux were a little later to market (I don't think it actually is), it has to do with getting drivers out of recalcitrant vendors, not with Linux "following" Apple or Microsoft.

Re:This is the Aqua and Aero "equivalent" ?

[arevos]

Apparently what is probably the premier desktop-oriented Linux distro doesn't think it's stable enough to include, but it's just as good - nay, better - than Aqua and Aero ? From a stability perspective, Beryl and Compiz have quite a way to go. However, the base systems seem more flexible than their proprietary counterparts from what I've seen. Do you know if Aqua or Aero have a plugin system that enables one to add third party effects to the graphics system? For instance, could I write a plugin for either desktop that would make my windows "wobble" when moving them around? Or explode in a shower of sparks when closed? Or would adding such features be built into the operating system and unable to be altered or extended by third party developers?

I don't think it's accurate to say that 3D acceleration on Linux is necessarily better than Aqua and Aero, as it's currently more immature. However, the X based systems seem to me to be more flexible, with a more clearly defined architecture. When this reaches stability, it seems that Linux will enjoy a not insignificant advantage over its competitors. Until then, I'd have to consider it as not better, but perhaps "more promising".

Re:This is the Aqua and Aero "equivalent" ?

[jalefkowit]

For instance, could I write a plugin for either desktop that would make my windows "wobble" when moving them around? Or explode in a shower of sparks when closed?

That's correct; unlike proprietary systems, Linux has no mechanism to protect you from your own bad taste.

Sorry, but ATI binary drivers just suck too much.

[MrvFD]

I'd understand the "give us our whatever-blobs"-attitude better if the "half" of the proprietary drivers people want wouldn't suck so bad. On my 64-bit Ubuntu, the proprietary ATI fglrx drivers:
- Hang the whole machine every time I logout (apparently because I'm using DVI output... gosh!), so I exit that installation of Ubuntu (which is not my primary, just testing the fglrx drivers etc. there) with alt-sysrq-e/i/s/u/b because it's safer.
- Give only green stripes and a complete hang if using _both_ DVI and VGA outputs at the same time (oh my god, we never though that could happen!).
- Do not give any 3D support if I happen not to disable Composite/AIGLX in Xorg.conf.

...while the reverse-engineered drivers give my Radeon X800 card 3D acceleration, DVI output, DVI+VGA output, accelerated Beryl 3D desktop via AIGLX etc. just finely. So I just don't belive in the FUD (from eg. NVIDIA) that they are so complex and extremely difficult to write, that the worldwide OSS community couldn't do that - those handful of reverse-engineering people are already doing better drivers than ATI with all the in-house knowledge!

I do symphatize with the people who just want "stuff to work", and know that NVIDIA proprietary drivers happen to be better quality at this time, but all my experiences with binary blobs has been so bad that I will take reverse-engineered drivers anytime, even for NVIDIA.

For those who haven't read it yet, David Airlied's LCA 2007 talk is a really good and entertaining piece: http://www.skynet.ie/~airlied/talks/lca07/nouveau. odp (yes, server's mime-type is probably wrong, you have to save it first)

No more PPC support?

[nurb432]

Well, that sux.

These names kill me.....

[Chineseyes]

for the next few releases I suggest nibbling nymphs, fighting phallus, and nasty necrophiliac.

Confused ...

[foobsr]

Quote: "Starting with Ubuntu's 7.04 release in April, Ubuntu users will gain access to Linspire's newly opened CNR (Click and Run) e-commerce and software delivery system."
referenced here: http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/08/ 1830240 : "Canonical and Linspire Make a Deal ... Ubuntu users will get access to proprietary software (DVD players, media codecs) via Linspire's ..."

What will a potential user make out of this while asking himself whether things will work for him?

CC.

Why?

[jopet]

What is so bad about including the proprietary drivers. For many users, they are the only way to make proper use of their hardware and e.g. run 3D design programs or something like X-Plane under Linux.

Why make it harder for these users?

What is so bad about giving me the proprietary but working NVidia driver for my NVidia hardware right from the start instead of forcing me to read countless HOWTOs and jump through holes first?

Re:Why?

[peragrin]

And what happens when the drivers don't work quite right but instead hang the entire kernel on you while your doing some menial task.

Who's fault is it? Who do you go to get help? I have had the NVidia driver die on me but it killed off the system. when you have a closed blob you can't figure out which part is broken. is it the kernel, or is it a driver?

That is what is wrong with them. Even on windows. how do you know which part really breaks? is it the crappy third party drivers, or is it MSFT's interface? Both sides blame each other if you ask them. All you can do is throw out the card or wait for an update. At least with linux if you have the mind to you can do the work yourself.

Re:Why?

[Hal_Porter]

That is what is wrong with them. Even on windows. how do you know which part really breaks? is it the crappy third party drivers, or is it MSFT's interface? Both sides blame each other if you ask them. All you can do is throw out the card or wait for an update. At least with linux if you have the mind to you can do the work yourself.

Or you can get Windbg, find the non Microsoft module in the stacktrace and either upgrade or uninstall it.

Interestingly, on Win XP, the machine uploads a dump to Online Crash Analysis which tries to find the faulty driver. I've seen this on a laptop with an Intel graphics chip - the machine would freeze for a few seconds, then Windows switched back to the default VGA driver at 640*480*16 colors and said that the device driver had got stuck in a loop and prompted me to save my work while it rebooted. After the reboot, OCA run and told me to install a new version of the graphics driver from the Intel site. Very, very impressive.

You can see that the GDI has some kind of watchdog to detect infinite loops in graphics drivers. It also knows how to reinitialize itself from 1024*768*64K colors to 640*480*16, and run in that crippled mode until the user has saved his documents. And OCA can presumably spot patterns in stacktraces submitted by the developers who found the original bug.

So it's possible to have systems based on untrusted kernel mode code which can heal themselves without needing any human input by talking to a server, with a bit of organisation.

Re:Why?

[jopet]

Sorry, but that community must obviously be 1) nuts and 2) not representative of Linux users if it thinks that way.

I am really sick and tired to see a couple of fundamentalist nuts hinder the success of Linux through nonsense like this. Until you can actually use hardware the way you do with other OS, Linux on the desktop for everyone will remain fiction.
It is already sad enough to see how much hardware there is were no driver at all (proprietary or not) is available -- to limit Linux even more by not supporting companies to easily include and distribute proprietary drivers is just insane.

I and many others have been using Linux (and before, *NIX) for many many years and I hate to see some fundamentalists declare themselves "the community" and speak for me and many others.

Of course, they are free to finally drive Linux into total irrelevancy with this, but I hate to see it happen.

Re:Why?

[Just Some Guy]

What is so bad about including the proprietary drivers.

It breeds complacency. My home desktop has an old GeForce MX 400 card which still works perfectly well. It renders my 1600x1200 desktop cleanly and quickly, and basically does what I want it to. I don't have a strong need for OpenGL but do like to play games occasionally (eg Quake or Second Life) and although it's not fast, it worked perfectly.

Note I said "worked". Nvidia has officially deprecated my card, so no new drivers will ever support it. New kernel with an incompatible ABI? I can't upgrade to it. Security vulnerability? I can't get the fix. Basically, I can either keep using my system in its current state forever, or buy a new card purely for the driver upgrade.

Yes, I know my card is old and slow by today's standards. But if it works for me and I'm happy with it, why should I have to replace it? Given that my motherboard has an old Via chipset that Nvidia only supports in AGP 2x mode and that new cards are all but impossible to get working (I've tried), I'm looking at a complete system upgrade just to get a new driver.

With a Free driver, in the worst case situation I could at least attempt to fix new problems on my own as they arise. With closed drivers, I have no control whatsoever. I like Free software for philosophical reasons, but it also has huge practical advantages. This is one of them.

Sorry but..

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand why we can't use proprietary drivers if they exist. I mean support from the hardware manufacturers are what Linux lacks and needs and what many wants, at least bitch about. Let proprietary and open source live together and take advantage of each others existence since proprietary drivers means that developers have one thing less to do and might use their time onanother project.

All of the above IMHO of course.

Buy hardware

[Kludge]

Or maybe we complain just because we like our Tuxracer, UT, Doom3, and desktops to be ready to go when started.

My Tuxracer, bzflag, + AIGLX/compiz bling-bling work out of the box because I only purchase hardware that is supported out of the box: ATI 9200 or less, or Intel graphics.

If you don't support the companies releasing open source drivers, those companies will disappear. And please don't give me the boo-hoo about Intel graphics not being as fast as the latest-latest-latest ATI/NVIDIA card. They really are fast enough for 99% of gamers.

Only on Slashdot...

[StressGuy]

can a string of 0's and 1's get modded as funny...every day...it gets a little closer to the day I'm sitting in a rocking chair on my front porch yelling at kids to get off my lawn....

So it is.

[aug24]

I don't know which is sadder... that he posted it, that you worked it out or that I trust /.ers so little that I had to do it too to check you weren't winding me up.

Justin.

Re: I can.

[nbritton]

I can read your message just fine, my reply:

01100111011101010111011001100110001000000111101001 11001001100110011001100110111001110100011100100010 00000111011001100110001000000110111000100000011100 10011000010111000001100101011011000110001101100111 01110010011100010010000001101111011101100110000101 10111001100101011011000010000001101111011110010110 00100110111100100000011001110111010101101110011001 11001000000110110001100010011010000010000001100110 01110101011000100110100001111001011100010010000001 11101001100010011100010010000001100111011000100010 00000010101100110101001000000110101001110110011001 11011101010110001001101000011001110010000001101110 01100110011110000111011001100001011101000010000001 10010001101000011100100110011001100111011101100110 00100110000101100110

Mandriva?

[Linegod]

So Mandriva can do it, but Ubuntu can't, and now all the arguments are 'why Linux can't do it'?

Since when did Ubuntu become the only Linux? Does everyone fall for marketing that easily?