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Godwin's Law Invoked in Linus/Gnome Spat
lisah writes "The flame wars between Linus Torvalds and the GNOME community continue to burn. Responding to Torvalds' recent claim that GNOME 'seems to be developed by interface Nazis' and that its developers believe their 'users are idiots,' a member of the Linux Foundation's Desktop Architects mailing list suggested that Torvalds use GNOME for a month before making such pronouncements. Torvalds, never one to back down from a challenge, simply turned around and submitted patches to GNOME and then told the list, '...let's see what happens to my patches. I guarantee you that they actually improve the code.' After lobbing that over the fence, Torvalds concluded his comments by saying, 'Now the question is, will people take the patches, or will they keep their heads up their arses and claim that configurability is bad, even when it makes things more logical, and code more readable.'" Linux.com and Slashdot are both owned by OSTG.
I really think that Linus is a cool guy no doubt about that, sending in those patches to the Gnome community sure was the way to prove who is the over-geek here and how to get something done instead of wasting valuable time arguing over something as unimportant as Gnome (pun intented), if Linus is right.
;)
But Linus does really seem to have a bit of an attitude problem at times. Which is many times good if you are a boss for employees, but the problem just is that is not what Linus is, he is the boss of volenteers, they can quit if they don't like their boss.
I can't help but get a little worried, had it been anyone else but Linus I wouldn't mind, let people have their strange ways as long as they do not bother me or anyone else to much.
I am just worried for Linus, I sure hope he does take care of himself and stay mentally fit, that flamewars like the one he appearently had with the Gnome people here does not bring him out of balance somehow.
If Linus somehow gets sick and overloaded then it will lead to a whole lot of mess with the development of the Linux Kernel which really would not be nice.
So please Gnome people start behaving, be humble, accept the patches and do not upset Linus, we really need him, even if he isn't always the nicest person around
I'm not a Linus fan boy. But, I have to say that if the work he is submitting is worth bringing in, there will be hell to pay for ignoring it. It's not like some l33t t33n trying to horn in. He has a history and following. We're not talking about some novice.
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.
Sorry kneejerkers, but its going to require a much more detailed description of those patches than simply "cleaner and more capable" before we can make a good evaluation of whether Linus's patches should be accepted.
After all, if someone submitted patches to the linux kernel to grab the local weather report and print it out on boot, that would be adding capability that Linus would never accept in a million years because it is outside of the scope of the kernel. If Linus's patches are similarly outside the scope of the official design goals of Gnome, then any expectation that they would be accepted is just a red herring.
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
People don't want configurability, they want something that works out of the box. That's why despite being free, people will pay 200$ for a copy of Windows. They don't want to compile things, they want it to work out of the box. They don't want to edit config files, they want it to self discover out of the box.
I think Linus is right. The GNOME developers have dumbed down the interface to the point of annoyance. There is a difference between hiding more advanced tweaking in a separate window or panel and making you (for example) go to gconf to fix the setting, as I have to do every time I want to re-enable emacs-style key bindings after every upgrade of my distro.
:-)
Yeah, yeah, I know, it's F/LOSS, I should just submit patches. But I'd rather rant and let other people submit them for me
Linus, that is.
The whole point of the open source movement is to allow alternative approaches to flourish and be chosen (or not) on their merits. It's what OSS does to raise quality. The biggest problem KDE and Gnome always had was that they continually trod on each others' toes. So, let them go their separate ways - let KDE be configurable and Gnome be "designed for idiots". See who wins. Either which way the variety is good for OSS itself.
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
This argument has nothing to do with the background or what gnome looks like morons, it has to do with the way it responds to actions, the way it presents options to the user.
The fact that linus had to take time to submit patches means the gnome developers are doing something incredibly stupid, this isn't a turf war, it means linus is concerned that the kernel he spends shitloads of time on is being trivialized by idiot programmers refusing to accept what the rest of the world wants in the systems they use.
KDE does the same shit, its annoying. I use linux daily but i have to say this is classic linux bullshit, KDE has too much, gnome has too little and no one wants to talk to each other or solve shit because everyone is in their own little camp.
Prefixes are gay as well, kstfu, ggbye
How does it happen that when we anonymous coders (or cowards) send patches and complaint about some open source program on a mailing list, it goes relatively unnoticed, and on the opposite side when some guy named Linus Torvalds does the same, he gets lots of attention.
I do not want to sound like jealousy or so but we humans are all equal in rights. But we are not equally famous. So because someone is famous, what he says should have more value?
I believe the Linux kernel is a good piece of software, but that's millions of line of code, Linus wrote only a small part of them. If another coder who wrote a good piece of stable drivers in the Linux kernel said the same thing Linus said, the question is, would this have had any headlines anywhere?
The answer is certainly no.
So that's why I think we should put an end to this Linus stuff. Linus does this, Linus says that... Who cares? Okay he did good things by the past, he does good things today but hey, there are many good developers out there, probably even better ones, and even Linux would survive pretty well without Linus.
To all those Gnome fans:
There are tons of things that can be configured/fixed in Windows just like Gnome.
With some configuration tool that's only suitable for an elite bunch to use.
So, I don't see Gnome as an improvement over Windows in terms of usability.
That don't match up too well with reality. Recent GNOME is bigger, slower, and has more layers of complication than recent KDE. If you want to talk about bloat, how about using a complete deadend technology like CORBA under the hood, or using XML in places where text would do because "you just don't know"? GNOME has been working on "performance enhancement releases" for the past year or so, but KDE has gotten faster with every release since 2002 and KDE4 is expected to cut overhead even more significantly. Have you compared the dependency trees for kubuntu-desktop vs. ubuntu-desktop? The GNOME one is considerably, um, bushier. Installing a GNOME app from zero takes so much downloading, I'm glad it's automated at least. I feel real pity for the person who actually has to compile all that crap.
;)
Incidentally, spatial file management is one of the worst things ever to come out of the "if it agrees with common sense it can't possibly be right" school of interface design.
I read description of the patches, and I don't want a window system with configurable right, middle OR double clicks on a title bar. If Linux ever becomes popular, it would be conceivable for a user to use someone else's machine, or expect instructions in an introductory book to work. He will then end up closing an important spreadsheet while trying to maximize it. Besides, window title bar is not the most critical or complex part of UI. I would rather gnome and kde teams focus on developing killer controls and good UI design tools. I DON'T want my window system's control panel to look like Linus'es make xconfig.
So the result is likely to be that they will use the default, and assume that Gnome is "Linux".
The term "power user" implies a certain level of familiarity, but little actual knowledge - a lot of rote learning ("click here to do this"), perhaps the ability to use VBA, and that is about it.
The ADL have become (maybe they always were, I haven't paid that much attention) one of the most pro-censorship advocacy groups out there and in an unbashedly biased fashion too - take their stance on Borat - at first they wanted him off the air for encouraging anti-semitism, but someone must have explained the joke to them because a year or two later they issued a second press release saying it's too bad that Borat uses Kazakhs as the butt of his jokes, but its OK after all since they aren't jews, so we don't want Cohen censored after all.
How can they expect anyone to take them seriously when they are happy to endorse the exact same kind of defamation they claim to oppose as long as it is aimed at some other ethnic group besides their own?
When information is power, privacy is freedom.
"there will be hell to pay for ignoring it"
I can't believe Linus, who has probably dropped more patches than anyone else alive, would think that sending in unwanted patches along with a *fuck you too* for good measure would think that somehow the GNOME people would suddenly change their minds.
Furthermore, projects should avoid contributors that are unable to get along even if they would make a valuable contribution. Having the additional useful developer doesn't balance out loosing the contribution of others who are offended and the loss of community around your project. I'm not making this up, just ask any HR department whether they would hire an all around offensive individual regardless of how good he is.
Honestly, I have a lot of respect for Linus, and respect someone who cares so much about the right solution. However in this case he has gone way over the line from being passionate about technology and perhaps a little quirky, into being embarrassingly out of touch with the norms of human interaction in a public forum.
-- http://thegirlorthecar.com funny dating game for guys
Because I want full configurability.
Because I don't want the bloat involved with Gnome and KDE backgroud utilities running
Because I don't want my machine to act or behave like M$ Windows or OS X
Because I want pure freakin' speed!!!
Because eye-candy isn't that damned important. I get by fine with 3Ddesktop and translucent aterms.
If I really want eye-candy I'll run Enlightenment
As I've been telling people thinking about Vista, do you want a fast computer so your OS can look pretty or so you can get more done? Application performance comes first and foremost so I want the lightest, fastest desktop available short of running Rat or screen.
And I find no reason to say anything different here. Linus arrived fashionably late to the Gnome vs. KDE flamewar. 5 years late. And 3 years too late to make a real difference.
I've looked at the titles of the patches and I'm sure that Gnome will reject some of them on style guidelines -- regardless of what Linus thinks. But I think it helps to understand the two mindsets.
Linus thinks like this: "I want to configure the middle mouse button to do something special the way I'm used to it." Gnome devs thinks like this: "Lucy doesn't want her children to screw up the computer such that double-clicking anything fails to work." Look, Linus has my utmost respect as one of the top coders on the planet. But even I have to point out that no one is dictating that he must run it on his desktop. Linus is free to choose what ever he wants, and if he wants to fork it, he can.
So in that respect I would say that we would need to take his comments with a grain of salt as well.
At worst he can always fork it and call it Linus/Gnome.
In what world are these mutually exclusive?
Windows is free?
Come on, with a post that short, you can afford to read it aloud to yourself and see if it makes sense.
Funny, that seems like what Linus is doing here. He wants to be able to change his right-click without recompiling! In what way is that wrong?
Oh, by the way, Windows allows programs change options in your right-click menu without rebooting, much less recompiling.
Which is why good Linux UIs make this configurable through a nice GUI. Point and click your way to what you want -- just like on Windows.
You know, your post reads like you think this has something to do with Linux not detecting hardware (except it does; it's not 1999 anymore), but that's not the issue at all. It's about UI preferences, and for fuck's sake, how is my computer supposed to know what kind of UI I want?
Oh, right, there's Clippy, which tries to guess what I'm doing ("It looks like you're writing a letter..."), and Vista's UAC, which asks me before it does anything ("Are you sure you want to use the Internet? That could be dangerous!")... I suppose that's my computer "discovering" what I want out of the box. But you know what, every single person I've talked to -- not just on Slashdot; Microsoft zealots included -- hates Clippy and UAC with a passion, because the defaults are fine for most people, and for the people who care, they'd rather hunt for the settings they care about than be bombarded about absolutely everything.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
Here's the link: (it was posted a bit earlier)o p_architects/2007-February/thread.html
.... But I do think that Linus needs to chill and let the GNOME core developers run the way they want to and accept or postpone (if there's a freeze) or reject his patches as they deem appropriate. If Linus want to contribute to GNOME (I hope he does), he has to do it by GNOME's rules or fork, or pass it on to someone who *is* willing to play by GNOME's rules (I'd be surprised if there weren't are more than a few developers and distros who would be willing to work as intermediary between Linus and GNOME). That's the way open source works.
http://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/deskt
Basically, Linus wants to have fine grained control over what the mouse buttons do.
Sounds like a simple request, but he doesn't reveal it until *after* he submits a patch and in that same email goes on to rant about how no-one listens to him and how GNOME developers make excuses instead of just doing whatever he wants. In a later email he comments that he sent the patches to a developer's only email address (that he admits may or may not have been able to see his patches) because he doesn't like bugzilla and says that the patches must be accepted or GNOME developers are a bunch of hypocrites even though an API freeze is in effect for about a month ( http://live.gnome.org/TwoPointSeventeen ).
Personally, I find it a bit interesting that Linus has repeatedly flamed (or sidelined) people on the Linux kernel mailing list for acting like he is now, not following the kernel submission procedure, assuming that freezes don't count, and assuming that if the core architects of the Linux kernel think that a feature (done in a certain way) is a bad idea then they must be a bunch of hypocrites.
I personally don't know if the patches are any good or in keeping with GNOME's design or need changes or
It's not unreasonable to expect this. GNOME core developers don't go on the Linux kernel thread and whine and submit attitude patches to Linus, 'tho if they did, they would (and should) be flamed. Linus has said repeatedly on the kernel mailing lists that submitters must either follow the kernel rules, or fork (e.g. if you don't like the license), or pass on your patches to someone who is willing to do things that kernel developer's way (none of Reiser's patches would have gone if it weren't for this later option).
Are there problems with the GNOME way of doing things? Sure. Linus brought up a good point about the ease of submitting patches. But all projects have issues. There was a time, not too long ago, when the submission process for the Linux kernel was "send Linus your patches and if he doesn't respond then keep resending them because the patches might have gotten lost". But the issues won't get better if you complain to the wrong people.
Just my 2 cents worth.
As a long-time, very savvy & intelligent PC user who's given up on linux half a dozen times (it's just not worth spending the few hours I have spare in the week reading forums so I can work out how to get my monitor's native resolution offered, or the six months it would take to get UT2k4 running), I find the idea that linux users are being treated like idiots hilarious. How the FUCK does a sub-average human get far enough into linux that they have GUI-config issues?
Ironic, we're advocating choice and alternatives in the big picture by supporting an option (Gnome) that does neither.
When someone actually proves that Linus is wrong, though, he'll recant.
These GNOMEheads seem to not be so enlightened.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
So - let's see what happened here.
a) Linus bitches about something he doesn't like
b) Somebody says "Use it for a month and THEN see if you like it (which totally ignores the fact that what he's bitching about shows that he HAS, in fact, used it). Others tell him that if he's not using it, or doing something about it, he has no right to complain.
c) Linus turns around and does what he's told to - he submits patches to fix what he thinks is broken
I don't see anything wrong here. I don't see evidence of an ego. What *I* see is somebody with very strong opinions, and grounded with a basis in fact (even if you don't agree with his conclusions - which I don't), doing something about it instead of just whining.
I wish MORE people had this particular "ego problem" of Linus' - Open Source would be much further along.
I'll tell you who are Interface Nazis. The developers for software that ends with an 'imp' and starts with a 'G'.
And GNOME was developed on the UI toolkit originally developed for which famous piece of software?
Unlike you, the Gnome developers don't actually decide things based on their opinions alone, they apply widely used principles of UI design and they test their interfaces on "real people".
Gnome is doing a good job at what they're doing. If people like Linus and you want to help, learn something about UI design first. Then, you can either contribute suggestions for specific improvements justified based on accepted UI design criteria, or you can participate in user testing. Your and Linus's opinions, on the other hand, are pretty much worthless.
If you make things up you shouldn't link content which proves you wrong.
I don't see anything wrong here.
:-|
Nor do I. I haven't been able to find out what Linus' patches are supposed to fix, but he should at least be taken seriously. More than I, in any case. I have to admit I'm one of those long-time Gnome users who bitch and moan when the developers come up with some new asshattery, but don't do anything about it...
I see it as a not paticularly good idea implemented badly - as an exercise for the reader consider how you would go about exporting the gpanel menu setting from one user to another on the same machine. Consider it in detail and look at source code instead of just stating "it's XML - how hard can it be?" - it will suprise and offend you - and you'll see why some very capable gnome developers have not yet finished the Sabayon application that is designed to do such things.
There's a lot that is good about gnome but don't assume that pointing out flaws is due to attitude problems.
Right now, people who find Gnome 95% perfect are suffering, because it won't let them fix the last 5% and get their dream environment. And you are not doing these people any favours by telling them they should use some other environment instead, because if Gnome is 95% perfect then KDE, Xfce, Blackbox, etc. will all be worse for them.
The mutant thing above really has me thinking it's time for people to reach for a dictionary, a few good novels and a few years worth of newspapers - I see it as a really bad comparison I cannot grasp the point of. Real people can do a lot of things and cover a wide range of abilities without getting pidgeonholed in with people in extreme states. Start paying attention instead of cataloging.
"People don't want configurability, they want something that works out of the box."
... and deeply personal ... way. The Windows you speak of is very configurable, and the popularity of stuff like TweakUI proves that a lot of people want it even more so. The Mac is not so configurable and ... golly gee whiz ... it's not as popular.
First, there is no monolithic "people" who single mindedly want something. If there were, everyone would be satisfied with the pathetic lot that the majority have voted into power in Washington.
More importantly, you are making a false dichotomy. Configurability is not the enemy of ease of use. The two properties are completely unrelated. Want to please both the dabblers and the deep tinkerers? Just give each software module intelligent defaults (pretty much like Gnome does now with some exceptions where it could be greatly improved), and add comprehensive configuration dialogs to change things. Now prominently add a single button, "restore all defaults". Presto. Now idiots (forgive me) can always instantly set everything to the One True Way which is easy to learn and easy to explain, while intelligent people can still set things up in an intelligent
I see your point, but it's not that simple. Like it or not, Gnome is the first thing that many people see on their way to using the software Linus does care about, which is the Linux kernel. It's like the lobby of the Linux hotel. And it's hard to blame Linus for saying "Clean up that fucking lobby, you stoners! I've dedicated my life to the internals of this hotel, they're aswesome, but once people see the filthy lobby, they run away without even noticing the good stuff!"
People who advocate the killing of other human beings should be banned off this board, plain and simple.
The real problem isn't really the lack of desktops or window managers. The real problem is the lack of a decent file manager that's independent and that allows you to see content (e.g., see jpegs, see pdfs).
ROX is not the answer. XFCE is not the answer.
I wonder: could something like this benefit from Java? That would be a good idea, wouldn't it? You could have something light like Fluxbox, that have a power file manager, since you already hava Java installed. That would also be multiplatform.
Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts
Yes, but it's the Linux hotel, not the Linus hotel. It was Linus's idea (borrowing a lot from Unix of course) but he didn't build it by himself and he doesn't own it. Many people have dedicated their life to a project without being able to call all the shots. Linus has been around long enough to know this (and he probably does).
Too bad that +5 is the highest moderation you can get. I think this one sentence sums up the situation better than all of the other posts I have read. I, too, am a Gnome user and do not like the direction it is going. The two most common scenarios I see are:
So where does that leave us, the dispossessed Gnome users? I wish I knew.
Now the question is, will people take the patches, or will they keep their heads up their arses and claim that configurability is bad, even when it makes things more logical, and code more readable.
This is from the guy who steadfastly refuses to let the Linux kernel even compile with C++ compilers, let alone move it over to C++. Apparently, power, configurability, and choice are values he cherishes only for other people's projects.
Linus' patch for Gnome is bad. I'm sorry he doesn't understand why complete configurability for the mouse is undesirable, but that's his problem. Furthermore, he actually has a trivial option for getting what he wants: he can use one of half a dozen other window managers, many of them fully configurable.
"People who advocate the killing of other human beings should be banned off this board, plain and simple."
Ban who you want from YOUR board. I think the Slashdot folks will just ignore those we disagree with. I fully embrace anyone's ability to express their opinion. I just as fully embrace everyone's right to ignore others' opinions.
I reserve the right to think for myself. Others' opinions are optional. Puppy on lap = typos...not illiteracy.