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Dell To Linux Users — Not So Fast
PetManimal writes to tell us that after all the hubbub over Dell's note about manufacturing Linux-friendly Dells and choosing distros, the company is now telling users not to expect factory-installed Linux laptops and desktops anytime soon. According to the article, Dell says that lining up certification, support, and training will 'take a lot of work.' "The company said today that the note was just about certifying the hardware for being ready to work with Novell SUSE Linux, not an announcement that the computers would be loaded and sold with the operating system in the near future..."
What is there to certify? The SUSE Linux people knows what works with their OS. Pick some hardware from that list, build it, ship it.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
Hmmm, sounds like somebody at Dell got The Phone Call.
Dude, you're getting a false hope!
Sure, but the only people who that sort of deal would appeal to are people who would buy it with no OS at all and then install their own OS.
People who want linux preloaded also want professional grade support.
Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
Why is this a reason not to buy a Dell? If I want to be confident that I will be able to run Linux on my machine with no driver issues, I buy Dell. The servers are all Linux-friendly, because you can buy them with Linux loaded. Also I've never heard of any issues with laptops or desktops. You can even ask their sales people about Linux support, while other manufacturers won't talk to you about it. As a Linux user, I would go straight to Dell.
Before we do this, you love me don't you???? Couldn't resist. I'm so getting flamed for this one...
Dell needs to continue listening to its customers, and give me Linux on my Dell (dude). The first step for this should be a Linux hardware forum where they discuss possible chipsets and identify possible incompatibilities before they occur. An open forum by such a large manufacturer may also put some pressure on chip and card manufacturers to open source their drivers.
The Widget of Sticky
I'm not a Linux user (yet). I just started looking into a distro to install, and I'm swimming in some unknown waters here. I can kinda sympathize. Not that I'm a huge Dell fan. I bought 2 5 years ago and was never really happy with their customer support, but as a well known, well established PC vendor, they have to have people on hand that can support a Linux environment. They've spent years as an M$ only vendor, so it's not like they have a bunch of Linux guys who can just show up and say "sure, I'll do customer support". They need to know that their support people can handle the calls. Bash Dell all you want (I won't disagree) but they still have to maintain what they sell, and so they need some level of confidence in the people who are supporting their computers. It's not like Windows where you can count on most of the users being no smarter than a tech-support person with a script to read, if they're going to be serious about sending out a box with Linux, they need to be able to support it. It's much more than "is our hardware supported". They need to be ready for when someone who's never even seen linux calls in and needs some help. Personally I know where to go, but I can just imagine some of the people I know thinking "Linux is the next big thing, I need one of those" and then scratching their head and wondering what they got themselves into. From what I've gathered from my Linux using friends, tech support is going to be a lot more than just "restart".
Most of the previous posters are saying that certification is a waste of time or simple. It is not... the process of certification is not that simple.
Essentially certification means that the hardware will operate as expected/designed. Sure the kernel will support the network card... but will it support it when someone wants to make some off the wall settings that are supposed to work?
Not to mention, with the level of integration and customization done by Dell and their OEM suppliers, using a supported Broadcom NIC, for example, does not mean that it will operate correctly in Linux.
Besides... it gives linux credibility. I know I have purchased hardware thats on the linux HCL and run into compatibility issues or hardware that is supported but has limited functionality. Things have come a long way, but they are far from perfect.
Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
Maybe they are just waiting for some poll that isn't flooded by people who really love linux but have no plans on buying a Dell.
Yes, its good they are considering Linux on their machines. But how many people will actually buy it? How big is the market for Dell to bother with selling it? Most people using Linux in the workplace already have their preferred Linux hardware vendor. Most people that are Dell shops are MS exclusively. That leaves the companies that have mixed vendors and home and personal use.
Verifying hardware and drivers and support staff will take time and money. They can't switch overnight, not Dell. They are too big to do it quickly. If they don't do it right the first time, they will alienate everybody that may have been interested in the past as well as losing the money they spent on failing. If they take their time and do it right, they can start eating in to HP and other hardware vendors that ship with Linux certified.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
Dell used to get linux support through Linuxcare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxCare and, if I recall they also had a contract with Redhat. If these left a bad taste, they may want to try to do it in house. In that case, it would take some time to build a team.
s -selling-solar.html
If that is the problem, start suggesting a group that could just step and handle the workload.
Sun doesn't own the Sun, no one does. http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
This really does worry me - if the linux Dell's do come out and are cheaper with SUSE or whatever distro they go with, I'm sure your everyday Joe will buy it. I worry that everyday Joe will then get stuck if he can't get something working with a GUI. I'm not trolling. I've seen people download windows programs and expect them to run in Linux when they double click setup.exe Its worse if they call the "Windows guru" whose never touched linux and cannot help. If Joe gets really frustrated he "upgrades" to Windows and vows never to try Linux again.
Let Dell take their time because if this is going to work its going to have to be seamless and familiar. I'd actually be thrilled once Dell picks out a distro because thats a big impetus to standardize a lot of things to it, GUI, installer and package manager especially. If you can get a standard cross distro installer and package format, unfortunately like InstallShield, that correctly adds entries for menus, and just works then Linux is really ready for the desktop.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
"Also I've never heard of any issues with laptops or desktops" Then you've never looked very hard. I own a Dell laptop and can say that the overall experience under Linux isn't the same as Windows because of Dell. Dell has custom tweaks in the ATI driver that provides better performance (aside from that fact that Linux ATI drivers suck) as well as adjustments for the LCD that I can't change in Linux. Don't even get me started on my Dell wifi card which is based on a broadcom chipset. Since 2.6.17, I have had native kernel support, but there are still some APs that I can't connect to, for example APs that use shared WEP keys.
People who want linux preloaded also want professional grade support.
And they're going to Dell for this?!?!?!?!?
GStreamer - The only way to stream!
SUSE doesn't have any real community momentum these days and - at least from what I hear - is still plagued by spiralling dependency problems. Have they or are they going to sort this stuff out?
The documentation and community around Ubuntu is so strong that they'd surely get far less phone-calls if they chose this distribution, while 're-selling' Ubuntu's commercial support option if the customer desired it. In other words, ship with Ubuntu soon/now and just outsource the support to either the community or the paid pros? I'm sure if Dell was to start shipping with Ubuntu pre-installed Mark would consider edging something like 'Feisty' into LTS status.
I would be surprised if the only reason they wouldn't do something like this is to meet MS half way, as their SUSE vendor. It's obvious the most noise regarding Linux on Dell points toward Ubuntu.
Disclaimer: I'm not a daily Ubuntu user, I've just seen users that try it stick to it for a sustained period, whether coming from SUSE, Windows, Fedora or OS X.
1) No high-end AMD systems (their instruction set is better supported on Linux)
2) High-end systems do not provide an option for high-end nVidia cards (their drivers work better on linux)
3) All high-end systems require purchase of MS Windows
These problems are unacceptable and force me to look for alternative manufacturers. If you know of someone that will actually build a good linux system (desktop system, thank you very much) then let me know, otherwise I'm going to end up doing it myself again - and honestly, that's getting irritating.
There is a lot more ugly stuff going on behind the scenes than most of us can imagine and this is probably just one of many ways Microsoft threatens computer vendors:e ll+over+its+Linux+dealings/2100-1014_3-6153904.htm l
http://news.com.com/Did+Microsoft+want+to+whack+D
to write the support scripts. Not until they can blame 99% of the problems on the customer will they be prepared to offer support for it. All they excuses they've collected for Windows will be of little use for them, they'll have to start from scratch.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Sadly there is trouble with Dell hardware/software even in their 'big business' server sales. ... our group bought from Dell, and got machines with closed source, YOU CAN'T RELOAD THE OS WITHOUT OUR PROPRIETARY BINARIES software.
Ugh, $60,000 worth of disposable equipment.
Wouldn't it be nice if they had just picked some scsi cards that have free software drivers? How nice it would be if Dell used it's market might to ask for specifications or free drivers instead of how non free companies usually do it - asking the maker to keep things secret.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Obviously they don't have the lobes for Linux.
While I respect that, I also see the reason... Servers typically mean a larger client, which typically means more money. Money = good = Dell happy. I imagine if my 2 dell systems cost more than the $5k (U.S.) I spent on them (combined), I'd be getting a bit more customer support too. If they put Linux on their machines, they need to deal with the thousands (or, more likely, millions) of customers who bought one system and demand customer support. Financially it's a nightmare. Putting Linux on their boxes doesn't mean "enterprise" it means supporting the masses that think "Linux will make me look cooler" in a home user support role. I've been through numerous software and hardware scenarios where being a "home user" just isn't lucrative enough for some decent support. But, if you tally up the numbers, who's more likely to give you a bad reputation? Thousands of pissed off (home) consumers or hundreds of happy (enterprise) consumers? Who do *you* think the U.S.'s (notoriously one sided) media is going to showcase? And then, there's market share. How can a company, who's ultimate responsibility is the dollar, justify offering Linux? Microsoft can say "in the past Y years we sold N copies of Windows" while all Linux can say is "X number of people downloaded our OS" without being able to (financially) justify that they were *all* new users (or at least a majority)? As long as Linux is free it will be hard to say how much of a share they have in the computing world. I pray it's always free, and hearing of institutions going OSS is great (like so many governments) but shy of that, it's hard to put a price on the users who use Linux and will buy a Linux based system. Financially it may add up, but there just aren't enough numbers to prove it.
"How about a nice cup of Shut The Fuck Up About Linux..."
you had me at #!
Fine for you.
But Dell has to provide meaningful technical support to make a go of OEM Linux in the consumer market.
You don't tell retail customers to Google for answers, you don't sent them to the IRC chat rooms. You provide the level of support that is appropriate for users new to Linux or you will drown in a flood of red ink.
Like you'll be missed.
There isn't a shop, restaurant, bank, professional office, hospital, school, library or public facility of any kind within twenty miles of here that isn't running a Windows OS on a Dell PC.
If you want linux you probably won't like Dell's factory settings anyway.
They should just include a Suse CD and make a deal with Microsoft to include a CD with a 30 day trial copy of Vista.
Microsoft is happy, linux users are happy, everybody is happy.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
My $750 includes T6600 and 2 GB of RAM - fact, because I type this on such a box, and I just checked. My video card ($80, included in the price) is NVidia GeForce 7300 GT, which I selected mostly because of dual DVI. Dell, OTOH, offers for $809 a P-4 3GHz system (Dell Precision Workstation 390), and once you start "customizing" to make it usable the price climbs quite high.
I can understand if the GGP does not want to risk it if s/he is unfamiliar with the hardware. But price-wise, you can definitely buy a box in pieces for half the price of what Dell or HP will charge you. Besides, you will get a universal system that can be upgraded or repaired, as opposed to custom boards, rails and other stuff that major box makers just love to put in.
Hasn't Ballmer lost his mind already?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Before OEMs can even think about pre-installing an OS they need to create an infrastructure that is going to work. The software needs to have a functional software installer/distribution method, and patches and updates need to work without too much user interaction.
Today for instance I was attempting to install my nVidia drivers onto my OpenSuSE 10.2 install, and it is giving me a very difficult time. Without the drivers, I can run the desktop at 1024x768 on my LCD. Once I install them, it doesn't recognize my monitor, and refuses to give me any other resolution but 800x600 at 50Hz.
Things like that simply HAVE to work from the get go. People are used to popping in a CD, or clicking a few buttons, and their products work. They will not take the time to jump onto IRC and talk to some really angry geeks who think they are gods of computers and try out any terminal commands.
I think Dell is on the right track at least because this puts some pressure on the other OEMs to tap into the market. Basically whichever OEM finishes the infrastructure first (my money is on Dell by way of India and China) gets the prize.
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
Not necessarily a stupid move, since distributing that operating system quite possibly violates (or will violate) the GPL. If copyright infringement lawsuits result from the Novell-Microsoft deal, Dell would likely want to hold Novell at arm's length.
http://outcampaign.org/
Surely it doesn't take a lot of time to manage to deliver a laptop or computer just with a plain-old *empty* hard-disc ? I don't see what testing or certifying or whatever should be needed to do that. It's also what most nerds would want anyway, because you can bet whatever linux-variant Dell opts for ain't going to be precisely the one you want anyway.
A "naked" variant for all their computers would be a good first step, and should be easy.
Will Dell PCs with linux be cheaper than the SAME model with windows or will everyone still be eligible for the Microsoft tax? If there is no price decrease on models bearing linux this is all a hoax, then you're paying for something you're not getting (windows) and still lining the pockets of Microsoft.
Most likely the price will be the same, because a PC without Windows promotes piracy!!!11 Right.
Disclaimer: The above message is intended to make absolutely no sense at all, if it failed in this the author would like to apologize in advance.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
I'm typing this on a Dell laptop running Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 WS - but then I chose to order one with an Intel wireless card and a Nvidia GPU, so it works. The reason your laptop is more annoying to use under Linux than under Windows is that you chose to buy one with a Broadcom wireless chip and an ATi GPU - which would be the same if it was a Lenovo or Sony or HP with those parts installed, and so absolutely not "because of Dell". Any suckiness is down to ATi, Broadcom and your own choices.
I'm going to run out of town with a mob carrying torches and pitch forks just for saying this, but THIS is why Linux--despite anyones claims--is simply not ready for the desktop.
/. gives them no credit for: Ensuring hardware compatibility--usually "plug & play" style--for nearly anything that you can buy at Best Buy or Dell or CompUSA.
When a guy that has enough knowledge and comfort to actually install and run linux STILL didn't know all the esoteric reasons why you need a specific GPU or WiFi card, etc, how could you ever hope for a regular joe-user to know?
I'm certain that the average user doesn't know a GPU from an IOU and they don't want to know.
Whether or not this is a GOOD thing (i think it is, personally), users are accustom to something that Microsoft does that
When linux can say the same, then you're on to something. Until then, stop evangelizing so much and spend more time writing decent drivers.
The server market--esp. web server--Linux is awesome. But desktops are a different beast. You can argue that the desktop shells for Linux are excellent now--and that was an important piece of the puzzle--but now that users have a desktop they might actually want to USE IT for something, and to do that, they'll need support for networking, optical, and video hardware.
Dell is also notorious for tweaking hardware or just plain having inconsistent builds. They're like a network company that likes to switch out wifi and wired nic chipsets on you while not bothering to change the model name on the box.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
You really don't get it if you think that a consumer has any desire to worry about their video chipset or WiFi drivers. Seriously.
And your "McD's coffee V. Starbucks coffee" analogy is just bad. These are well branded companies. Any person on the street could tell you that their impression is that Starbucks is further up market than McDonalds. Now go ask them that same question about ATI Vs. nVidia. They'll look at you like you're on LSD. Ditto for Intel WiFi Vs. Broadcom WiFi.
Linux is still offered on "Nerd Terms." Linux may be free of charge but there's still a heavy cost associated with it. If you want to run linux, great, but you're going to have to become a computer expert. You're going to have to understand what a driver is, first of all, and then understand why you need certain makes of hardware. You'll need to understand many of the mundane things that Windows abstracts away. You'll need to know why Broadcom=Bad and Intel=Good except for somethings where Intel=Bad and AMD=Good and you'll have to know what a video card is and why ATI is a huge brand name but ATI=Bad and nVidia=Good and you'll need to understand that SOME nVidia STILL =Bad and the next nVidia card that comes out might =Bad for a year until drivers come out and then it =Good.
To any "average" user that I know, if you'd ask them to pick between learning that, or shelling out another $100 for a copy of Windows, they'll pick Windows in a second.
People always talk about about how "If cars worked like windows, they'd crash all the time..." but you never hear about "If cars worked like linux.."
If cars worked like Linux they'd be totally free, but they'd require you compile them from their parts.
You'd have to know why the Delco spark plugs that fit your car won't work, but the Bosch spark plugs do.
You'd be able to boast that your car can stay running for 300 days even though you don't actually ever need it to.
You'd have a car that doesn't crash but you'd also have a car that you couldn't lend to a friend without giving them a significant training lesson.
You'd have to re-compile the car every time you make a significant addition to it.
It would look like a normal car on the outside, but on the inside, everything you're used to in a Windows world is different.
If you bought a fleet of linux cars for your business, they'd run forever but you'd never have any good drivers.
You could get more speed out of a lesser engine but you'd find that the most common and coolest new roads aren't compatible with your car.
You'd be able to configure things like how many degrees your wheels turn for every revolution of your steering wheel, or how fast your CD plays back, or fuel injection timing, even though you don't want to do those things. At the same time, you'd have to use a CLI to change your radio station or set your climate control.
Etc