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Dell To Linux Users — Not So Fast
PetManimal writes to tell us that after all the hubbub over Dell's note about manufacturing Linux-friendly Dells and choosing distros, the company is now telling users not to expect factory-installed Linux laptops and desktops anytime soon. According to the article, Dell says that lining up certification, support, and training will 'take a lot of work.' "The company said today that the note was just about certifying the hardware for being ready to work with Novell SUSE Linux, not an announcement that the computers would be loaded and sold with the operating system in the near future..."
What is there to certify? The SUSE Linux people knows what works with their OS. Pick some hardware from that list, build it, ship it.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
Hmmm, sounds like somebody at Dell got The Phone Call.
Dude, you're getting a false hope!
It's as much work as you want to make it.
The simple solution is to ship a hardware testing CD with the box and let whatever distribution provide the "support" for anyone installing it.
All Dell would have to do would be to contact Linus (who would delegate it) to check that the hardware is supported by the current kernel. Problem solved.
Why is this a reason not to buy a Dell? If I want to be confident that I will be able to run Linux on my machine with no driver issues, I buy Dell. The servers are all Linux-friendly, because you can buy them with Linux loaded. Also I've never heard of any issues with laptops or desktops. You can even ask their sales people about Linux support, while other manufacturers won't talk to you about it. As a Linux user, I would go straight to Dell.
Couldnt Dell just use hardware that is compatible with SUSE (the SUSE people probably have a list somewhere...), and then pass the burden of software support along to SUSE? If your program doesnt install correctly on your Dell, you call MS, not Dell. If your HD dies, then you call Dell. And I'm guessing that their customer base will not be needing that much support, because the people who buy a Dell with linux pre-installed are probably the same people who buy a computer preloaded with MS, nuke the drive, and install their favorite linux distro all by themselves. I dont understand why tech support would be the thing holding Dell back. Maybe this is a cop-out?
Before we do this, you love me don't you???? Couldn't resist. I'm so getting flamed for this one...
Dell needs to continue listening to its customers, and give me Linux on my Dell (dude). The first step for this should be a Linux hardware forum where they discuss possible chipsets and identify possible incompatibilities before they occur. An open forum by such a large manufacturer may also put some pressure on chip and card manufacturers to open source their drivers.
The Widget of Sticky
I'm not a Linux user (yet). I just started looking into a distro to install, and I'm swimming in some unknown waters here. I can kinda sympathize. Not that I'm a huge Dell fan. I bought 2 5 years ago and was never really happy with their customer support, but as a well known, well established PC vendor, they have to have people on hand that can support a Linux environment. They've spent years as an M$ only vendor, so it's not like they have a bunch of Linux guys who can just show up and say "sure, I'll do customer support". They need to know that their support people can handle the calls. Bash Dell all you want (I won't disagree) but they still have to maintain what they sell, and so they need some level of confidence in the people who are supporting their computers. It's not like Windows where you can count on most of the users being no smarter than a tech-support person with a script to read, if they're going to be serious about sending out a box with Linux, they need to be able to support it. It's much more than "is our hardware supported". They need to be ready for when someone who's never even seen linux calls in and needs some help. Personally I know where to go, but I can just imagine some of the people I know thinking "Linux is the next big thing, I need one of those" and then scratching their head and wondering what they got themselves into. From what I've gathered from my Linux using friends, tech support is going to be a lot more than just "restart".
Most of the previous posters are saying that certification is a waste of time or simple. It is not... the process of certification is not that simple.
Essentially certification means that the hardware will operate as expected/designed. Sure the kernel will support the network card... but will it support it when someone wants to make some off the wall settings that are supposed to work?
Not to mention, with the level of integration and customization done by Dell and their OEM suppliers, using a supported Broadcom NIC, for example, does not mean that it will operate correctly in Linux.
Besides... it gives linux credibility. I know I have purchased hardware thats on the linux HCL and run into compatibility issues or hardware that is supported but has limited functionality. Things have come a long way, but they are far from perfect.
Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
If you can validate the hardware the "professional support" will come from the distribution.
This is Linux, not Windows. There's no need to stay with Microsoft's support methods. Either the hardware is flawed or there is something in the software that isn't right. And the people best able to address that would be the support staff at the distribution you're running.
Maybe they are just waiting for some poll that isn't flooded by people who really love linux but have no plans on buying a Dell.
Yes, its good they are considering Linux on their machines. But how many people will actually buy it? How big is the market for Dell to bother with selling it? Most people using Linux in the workplace already have their preferred Linux hardware vendor. Most people that are Dell shops are MS exclusively. That leaves the companies that have mixed vendors and home and personal use.
Verifying hardware and drivers and support staff will take time and money. They can't switch overnight, not Dell. They are too big to do it quickly. If they don't do it right the first time, they will alienate everybody that may have been interested in the past as well as losing the money they spent on failing. If they take their time and do it right, they can start eating in to HP and other hardware vendors that ship with Linux certified.
-I just work here... how am I supposed to know?
Dell used to get linux support through Linuxcare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LinuxCare and, if I recall they also had a contract with Redhat. If these left a bad taste, they may want to try to do it in house. In that case, it would take some time to build a team.
s -selling-solar.html
If that is the problem, start suggesting a group that could just step and handle the workload.
Sun doesn't own the Sun, no one does. http://mdsolar.blogspot.com/2007/01/slashdot-user
I'm very dissapointed. Just when I thought when Dell was going to grow some pubic hairs they prove again to their customers that they don't have the guts.
... to live life with no balls. that's not funny man.... no balls. shit.
It would be nice to have a laptop guaranteed to have all of its buttons work like dvd/cd buttons, lcd contrast, hybernate and suspend!
I would have definitely bought from Dell if they went through it!
It's a missed oportunity really, they could have supported ubuntu and pre-installed a nice glossed version with all the beryl trimmings and gdesklets turned on and guaranteed all the features and buttons on it will work.
It would have presented to be a nice alternative to windows vista and the mac!
Dell you have no balls... sorry you've got no balls man.
that sucks man
"If a show of teeth is not enough, bite
This really does worry me - if the linux Dell's do come out and are cheaper with SUSE or whatever distro they go with, I'm sure your everyday Joe will buy it. I worry that everyday Joe will then get stuck if he can't get something working with a GUI. I'm not trolling. I've seen people download windows programs and expect them to run in Linux when they double click setup.exe Its worse if they call the "Windows guru" whose never touched linux and cannot help. If Joe gets really frustrated he "upgrades" to Windows and vows never to try Linux again.
Let Dell take their time because if this is going to work its going to have to be seamless and familiar. I'd actually be thrilled once Dell picks out a distro because thats a big impetus to standardize a lot of things to it, GUI, installer and package manager especially. If you can get a standard cross distro installer and package format, unfortunately like InstallShield, that correctly adds entries for menus, and just works then Linux is really ready for the desktop.
Reality must take precedence over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled.
"Also I've never heard of any issues with laptops or desktops" Then you've never looked very hard. I own a Dell laptop and can say that the overall experience under Linux isn't the same as Windows because of Dell. Dell has custom tweaks in the ATI driver that provides better performance (aside from that fact that Linux ATI drivers suck) as well as adjustments for the LCD that I can't change in Linux. Don't even get me started on my Dell wifi card which is based on a broadcom chipset. Since 2.6.17, I have had native kernel support, but there are still some APs that I can't connect to, for example APs that use shared WEP keys.
SUSE doesn't have any real community momentum these days and - at least from what I hear - is still plagued by spiralling dependency problems. Have they or are they going to sort this stuff out?
The documentation and community around Ubuntu is so strong that they'd surely get far less phone-calls if they chose this distribution, while 're-selling' Ubuntu's commercial support option if the customer desired it. In other words, ship with Ubuntu soon/now and just outsource the support to either the community or the paid pros? I'm sure if Dell was to start shipping with Ubuntu pre-installed Mark would consider edging something like 'Feisty' into LTS status.
I would be surprised if the only reason they wouldn't do something like this is to meet MS half way, as their SUSE vendor. It's obvious the most noise regarding Linux on Dell points toward Ubuntu.
Disclaimer: I'm not a daily Ubuntu user, I've just seen users that try it stick to it for a sustained period, whether coming from SUSE, Windows, Fedora or OS X.
Dell will only provide free software pre-installed when they start to loose marketshare to companies that provide installation and support of GNU/Linux on desktops and laptops. Why not buy your next computer from system76?
------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
There is a lot more ugly stuff going on behind the scenes than most of us can imagine and this is probably just one of many ways Microsoft threatens computer vendors:e ll+over+its+Linux+dealings/2100-1014_3-6153904.htm l
http://news.com.com/Did+Microsoft+want+to+whack+D
to write the support scripts. Not until they can blame 99% of the problems on the customer will they be prepared to offer support for it. All they excuses they've collected for Windows will be of little use for them, they'll have to start from scratch.
"To those who are overly cautious, everything is impossible. "
Sadly there is trouble with Dell hardware/software even in their 'big business' server sales. ... our group bought from Dell, and got machines with closed source, YOU CAN'T RELOAD THE OS WITHOUT OUR PROPRIETARY BINARIES software.
Ugh, $60,000 worth of disposable equipment.
Wouldn't it be nice if they had just picked some scsi cards that have free software drivers? How nice it would be if Dell used it's market might to ask for specifications or free drivers instead of how non free companies usually do it - asking the maker to keep things secret.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Obviously they don't have the lobes for Linux.
An open forum by such a large manufacturer may also put some pressure on chip and card manufacturers to open source their drivers.
Dell does not need to wait to chose hardware that already has free drivers. This would be a great service to their customers who will get hardware that's certified to work with free software. Right now Dell is a crap shoot for free software users, with more losers than winners and users have to do all the homework for themselves. If you go through all that trouble, you might as well build your own box from cheap parts.
Dell has already turned on the pressure. Just mentioning that they will do this will have vendors lining up.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
or the Dell Dude says click on the "Network Status" icon and when it opens up start reading me what it says
(in the background it opens up a secure shell and tries to check in)
Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
It will be just as long before I consider buying any of your computers.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Told you so. Microsoft won't let Dell do it. Microsoft controls the terms of Dell's OEM discount on Windows. Microsoft imposes many requirements for that discount. Why do you think you see "Dell Recommends Windows Vista" all over the site?
I would happily pay extra for a system that I knew would work with Free Software drivers. Looking around for compatible hardware and jiggering the system so that it works with binary-only drivers takes my time, and my time is worth something.
While I respect that, I also see the reason... Servers typically mean a larger client, which typically means more money. Money = good = Dell happy. I imagine if my 2 dell systems cost more than the $5k (U.S.) I spent on them (combined), I'd be getting a bit more customer support too. If they put Linux on their machines, they need to deal with the thousands (or, more likely, millions) of customers who bought one system and demand customer support. Financially it's a nightmare. Putting Linux on their boxes doesn't mean "enterprise" it means supporting the masses that think "Linux will make me look cooler" in a home user support role. I've been through numerous software and hardware scenarios where being a "home user" just isn't lucrative enough for some decent support. But, if you tally up the numbers, who's more likely to give you a bad reputation? Thousands of pissed off (home) consumers or hundreds of happy (enterprise) consumers? Who do *you* think the U.S.'s (notoriously one sided) media is going to showcase? And then, there's market share. How can a company, who's ultimate responsibility is the dollar, justify offering Linux? Microsoft can say "in the past Y years we sold N copies of Windows" while all Linux can say is "X number of people downloaded our OS" without being able to (financially) justify that they were *all* new users (or at least a majority)? As long as Linux is free it will be hard to say how much of a share they have in the computing world. I pray it's always free, and hearing of institutions going OSS is great (like so many governments) but shy of that, it's hard to put a price on the users who use Linux and will buy a Linux based system. Financially it may add up, but there just aren't enough numbers to prove it.
"How about a nice cup of Shut The Fuck Up About Linux..."
you had me at #!
Do you really want Dell craplets in your Linux Distro anyway?
Just ship them with a Knoppix CD in the coffee-cup holder. No one will know the difference!
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
the hardware works PROPERLY with Linux out of the box, it's okay... no one expected Dell to break Microsoft's heart anyway...
I thought the Linux community was basically avoiding Novell until all of their Microsoft flag waving was sorted out. I know I have been... :|
I ate your fish.
It's supporting linux
the closest thing to a network management tool microsoft has released is mmc. With *nix you get, at the very least ssh and a shell, which is enough to control everything that runs after the beginning of the init process. Pair that with a server management card and you have everything you need, you never have to touch the box again.
I fear the Y2038 bug
That would be a huge win. However, I think Ballmer would lose his mind if this happened.
Should not have ordered the Dell with the Broadcom chips since they offer IPW. You can even probably swap out the chipset (though I'm not sure if it's MiniPCI or whether it's onboard).
All they are doing is defining the minimum time frame for me to give them money. If it takes them a year to build and support Linux systems, it'll be a minimum of 1 year before they get money from me. If it takes them 20 years, it'll be a minimum of 20 years before they get money from me. I'm sure they'll let me know when it is they would like some money.
"not an announcement that the computers would be loaded and sold with the operating system in the near future"
Retailers hate to announce new features more than just a little bit into the future for fear of someone who was ready to buy today putting off their purchase for any considerable length of time. They don't mind if there is a hard date for consumers to look forward to and start saving up, like if they announced this would start in April. But with no definite time frame some purchasers might hold off indefinitely and then get irritated at the delay and purchase a different brand. So it makes good business sense to jump on this misunderstanding right away just as much as it makes sense to begin this process of trying to provide something some of their potential customers want.
If you want linux you probably won't like Dell's factory settings anyway.
They should just include a Suse CD and make a deal with Microsoft to include a CD with a 30 day trial copy of Vista.
Microsoft is happy, linux users are happy, everybody is happy.
bash-2.04$
bash-2.04$yes "Don't you hate dialup connections?"| write USERNAME
and...
I agree with you Dog. This move would be a huge risk, and with some investors suing Dell already over perceived Intel kickbacks, this whole PR move by Dell with desktop linuxes could be nothing more than a preemptive PR strike of their own concerning claims about Microsoft kickbacks. It seems nonsensical on the surface, but maybe Suse and RedHat are making waves on their own which just isn't reported. I dunno. Who knows. Maybe Dell investors are just looking for some ripe apples to start falling off the Dell orchard here, and any NEW news is better than no news when it comes to investing. Linux is just that news.
Personally, I think Dell can mitigate any risks here by just selling preloaded "legacy" hardware linux systems at substantial cost reductions. Surely Dell has a large inventory of two to three year old systems collecting dust in their warehouses. Cheap e-machines were a hit way back when, and they were basically nothing more than email/tube clients anyways. Just imagine a beowulf cluster of Dell linux machines sold across America at _half_ their cheapest current model offerings. Linux has a stable and proven track record on "older" systems. Sounds like a good entry level market to me, and a great way to pump up sales figures at the same time. Linux support is not an issue - there are so many ways to materialize an acceptable linux support contract (with caveats and limitations). With all the RHEL and Ubuntu certs to be had (and hired for Dell tech support), what's the dealio? Well, you get the picture. You can fill in all the possible blanks here. It's feasible, and doable, imo. It just requires some _small_ risk - no need to plunge naked head first into an icy arctic fishing hole just yet.
I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
It would be nice if Dell started doing support. With calls spanning two weeks and three continents (I talked to people in the USA, Singapore, India and Australia) and being faxed all the details of another client just in an attempt to purchase a spare battery I have little confidence in their abilities in this way.
just a guy he knew. I'm not sure he disagrees with your assessment ;) It's a real problem, though; there are alot of stupid people out there, or at least people who have long since lost the ability to really think (the world tends to train it out of them).
I remember sigs. Oh, a simpler time!
Too bad he isn't using the 'twitter' account - that would have been even funnier.
If I was buying something premade by Hell Computer, then I probably would be thinking that Linux was a type of flooring, and not an OS.
Knowing Google's lust for data collection, the Soviet Union is still alive and well inside the psyche of Sergey Brin....
If we want a GNU/Linux computer, we can get one from places like system76.com, rcubedtech.com, or other GNU/Linux friendly OEMs. Sure, it would be nice if Dell gave a darn, but we don't need them.
You know, up to this point I wouldn't even slightly consider Dell either (IMO, the only decent laptops are MacBooks and Thinkpads), but if Dell follows through it might be enough to make me change my mind. Who says the OP isn't allowed to change his mind, too?
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I found Microsoft's support much better than Dell's. Although, maybe that's because I got their customer support for corporate users.... Even still, that's comparing it to Dell's customer support for corporate users as well....
Before OEMs can even think about pre-installing an OS they need to create an infrastructure that is going to work. The software needs to have a functional software installer/distribution method, and patches and updates need to work without too much user interaction.
Today for instance I was attempting to install my nVidia drivers onto my OpenSuSE 10.2 install, and it is giving me a very difficult time. Without the drivers, I can run the desktop at 1024x768 on my LCD. Once I install them, it doesn't recognize my monitor, and refuses to give me any other resolution but 800x600 at 50Hz.
Things like that simply HAVE to work from the get go. People are used to popping in a CD, or clicking a few buttons, and their products work. They will not take the time to jump onto IRC and talk to some really angry geeks who think they are gods of computers and try out any terminal commands.
I think Dell is on the right track at least because this puts some pressure on the other OEMs to tap into the market. Basically whichever OEM finishes the infrastructure first (my money is on Dell by way of India and China) gets the prize.
Relocating to San Francisco / Palo Alto... Hire me?
Had the enter key pop off on my laptop. They sent a new one within 2 days. The instructions were missing so the guy talked me through replacing the keyboard while I was on the phone. (It turns out to be pretty simple, but I didn't know that at the time).
.... (not Dell). If you want support you pay the extra for the premium. Once a system has been set up, start duplicating disks.
So between broken keyboard and fixed 2 days.
Support staff seemed very friendly and knowledgable.
Of course this was a hardware problem so software may be a different story. But I think preloading linux with a major distro shouldn't be a problem. Send out a sample machine to suse/mephis/ubuntoo/gentoo/debian and so on with instructions to load their OS on as nicely as possible, and to call for hardware specs if needed. I have a feeling that companies wouldn't mind doing this as a service to get possible thousands of sales. The community sponsored distros have gurus that would love to promote their software. Software support provided by
Anyways, does Dell do software support for Microsoft? I don't think so.
Not necessarily a stupid move, since distributing that operating system quite possibly violates (or will violate) the GPL. If copyright infringement lawsuits result from the Novell-Microsoft deal, Dell would likely want to hold Novell at arm's length.
http://outcampaign.org/
Hey, the guy said he bought it with closed source, or did they buy them initially with windows? If they did with windows and decided to switch Os's mid stream. Is its fault.
1. IT guy could have asked dell before hand. Could have researched on the web. Found out which companies had support if not open source drivers for the dell.
Personally, servers need to special drivers, no graphics.
Wait there is more. from the dell Site. On the 1950.
Microsoft® Windows® 2000 Server
Microsoft® Windows® 2000 Advanced Server
Red Hat® Linux® Enterprise v4, AS EM64T
Red Hat® Linux® Enterprise v4, Advanced Server
Red Hat® Linux® Enterprise v3, ES
Red Hat® Linux® Enterprise v3, Advanced Server
Red Hat® Linux® Enterprise v3, WS
Novell® NetWare® 6.5 SP5 (No Open Manage support)
A list of all the Os's they support. Two MS Choices, 4 different Red hats, and one Novell. Cleary states what is certified on it, and if you specify one of the the ones they support, they will supply with app. controllers, nics, etc. Too time consuming and costly to support every flavor of linux out there.
And after searching the web, there are not that many problems under the supported versions and many work arounds. Also people running Free BSD and a host of other unices.
Guy fails to mention what Linux, and what specfic problems
And you know what? Could have bought one server, tested it with whatever linux he was working with, and if it didnt work, send it back. Or use it in another capacity.
Just sounds like some young buck made a bad decision without due dilligence and is passing the buck to Dell.
So sounds like someone without a lot of knowledge and poor problem resolution skills.
And for shits and grins, I called some our it guys, and we have have about 15 of that particular model in production. Running redhat.
Hell, even clues on how to get it working under Centos.
So it is other fud, or just someone who has not made their bones in it.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
see link in title.
And this blurb from the index. Amazing what is out there.
Welcome to the Dell Linux Community Web. This site is dedicated to providing any information that may be useful regarding your usage of Linux on your Dell equipment. While Dell primarily works with and officially supports Red Hat and Novell / SuSE Linux, many of our customers choose to run other distributions. Though we cannot have telephone support for all of the different flavors and configurations and patches you may be using, since these have not gone through our standard testing practices, we certainly can foster other methods that may provide you with help and resources. This website, along with our highly popular mailing lists, allow us to help you use your Dell equipment however you choose.
Puto
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
hell, Dell is still working on that preloaded OS/2 version. I hear they almost got it figured out. damn drivers.
...like they are gonna pay a bunch more for their Windows installs, just so they can sell a few thousand pre-loaded linux boxes. LOL
so, uh, good luck with this thing you call linux
My guess is that all Linux laptops will be offered with lowest configuration (512 MB, 40 GB HDD, cd-rom etc.,) and will cost like hell when you try to customize each component. This way they can keep MS happy because no one will prefer the linux laptop.
The other reason why only advanced users will buy it is that the default installation of all distros don't even play DVD movies.. WHAAAAT ?? I get a PC and i can't play my DVDs ?? Users don't want to care about apt-get or whatever to get may be a new xine-lib or dvdcss whatever. Linux is very customizable and will only confuse beginners.
I don't want a signature.
"Nawwww!"
Surely it doesn't take a lot of time to manage to deliver a laptop or computer just with a plain-old *empty* hard-disc ? I don't see what testing or certifying or whatever should be needed to do that. It's also what most nerds would want anyway, because you can bet whatever linux-variant Dell opts for ain't going to be precisely the one you want anyway.
A "naked" variant for all their computers would be a good first step, and should be easy.
Will Dell PCs with linux be cheaper than the SAME model with windows or will everyone still be eligible for the Microsoft tax? If there is no price decrease on models bearing linux this is all a hoax, then you're paying for something you're not getting (windows) and still lining the pockets of Microsoft.
Most likely the price will be the same, because a PC without Windows promotes piracy!!!11 Right.
I'm feeling a little smug here! Dell is going to drag it's heels as long as it can, on this one.
*** Don't be dull.***
So true.
As far as I can tell, Dell only supports the hardware anyway. They provide OS drivers for the hardware, but their support stops there.
You don't get Windows support, you get Windows -driver- support.
Linux is the Kernel. People seem to be missing the point, the problem isn't so much supporting multiple distros, the problem is supporting multiple kernel versions. I'm not saying that is an easy thing to do, I'm sure it would be a pain in the ass (ie., costs Dell money).
A house divided against itself cannot stand.
I happen to work for a company (not Dell) that offers a discount for purchasing a Dell system up to $1500. They'll fork the bill, and I have 2 years to pay it back out of my paycheck.
Good deal? Yes, but then again I'm not going to take advantage of this program if I have to get a system with Vista installed. XP Pro, maybe. Personally, I'd rather have a Apple option.. it's more like home if I have at least a terminal option and that familiar bash prompt.
Life was hell, then I discovered Linux...
Just sounds like some young buck made a bad decision without due dilligence and is passing the buck to Dell.
So sounds like someone without a lot of knowledge and poor problem resolution skills.
That or astroturfing FUD. IME, it's practically impossible to find a SCSI controller which can't be made to work like a charm in Linux so the OP is, IMO, either lying or incompetent.
Disclaimer: The above message is intended to make absolutely no sense at all, if it failed in this the author would like to apologize in advance.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
With all the yawns for Vista and Dell spiraling downward for a moment there I thought Dell was actually going to start serving the needs of its customers.
I'll remember this next time somebody tells me how the PC is "an open platform". Sure it is.
If the standard Linux/Unix concept of trusted repositories was more mainstream, we wouldn't have spyware. End of story.
.app/.mpkg (on OS X). Then try to come up with a way to implement that in a user-friendly way, instead of defining "user-friendly" as being "InstallShield-like" and then trying to tack package management on top of that.
I don't mean to sound like the "RTFM, n00b" kind of zealot, but it's 4 AM, and I'm tired, and I really think you should try to understand why package management is better than InstallShield or
And yes, packages generally do correctly add menu entries on Linux, and they do so without forcing you to reboot.
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
I'm typing this on a Dell laptop running Red Hat Enterprise Linux 4 WS - but then I chose to order one with an Intel wireless card and a Nvidia GPU, so it works. The reason your laptop is more annoying to use under Linux than under Windows is that you chose to buy one with a Broadcom wireless chip and an ATi GPU - which would be the same if it was a Lenovo or Sony or HP with those parts installed, and so absolutely not "because of Dell". Any suckiness is down to ATi, Broadcom and your own choices.
I guess someone (*cough* Microsoft *cough*) got to them before the needs of the customer could. But we knew this was going to happen didn't we.
Set aside for the moment the fact that they flat out REFUSE to sell us what we've been telling them we want and will pay for and have ALREADY gotten to work on our own. This confusing mixed message yes I mean no I mean not yet nonsense is confirming to us that Dell has its head way up yonder the colon. Is it any wonder why Dell and all the lesser companies are dying?
What is the matter with these people? A rumour appears that says they might be thinking about Linux on their machines, and they get a big response from interested buyers. Dell! Wake up and smell the opportunity!
www.wavefront-av.com
Typing this on a Dell which came with XP which I removed and installed FC6. Not that hard, really. You know what I'd like to see?? A PC w/no OS that comes with Linux certified hardware. Simple as that. Then, I can install whatever distro suits my fancy.
Why won't Dell sell a laptop WITHOUT an OS? Then there is nothing to support!
Let the community "support" it. The fact that you cannot buy a laptop without
paying the Microsoft tax is pretty telling. If I have to pay a laptop OS tax, I
might as well pay it to Apple where I at least get a useful and reliable OS
in return.
For people who can't figure out how to install an OS, sell them the craptastic
Vista but for the rest of us, just sell a machine with a blank HD, some diags on
a CD (so we can prove that the machine is busted if and when it is) and be done
with it. They'll sell boat loads of them.
I have a three year old Dell Inspiron that runs SUSE10.1 just fine. My wireless, NIC and ATI video were all supported out of the box. The ONLY hardware issue I've ever had was with dual monitors, and I think I was pushing the limitations of X.. NOT the hardware.
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/64210/Ge t_Linux_certified_by_a_wellestablished_FOSS_compan y_whose_motives_are_clear
I'm going to run out of town with a mob carrying torches and pitch forks just for saying this, but THIS is why Linux--despite anyones claims--is simply not ready for the desktop.
/. gives them no credit for: Ensuring hardware compatibility--usually "plug & play" style--for nearly anything that you can buy at Best Buy or Dell or CompUSA.
When a guy that has enough knowledge and comfort to actually install and run linux STILL didn't know all the esoteric reasons why you need a specific GPU or WiFi card, etc, how could you ever hope for a regular joe-user to know?
I'm certain that the average user doesn't know a GPU from an IOU and they don't want to know.
Whether or not this is a GOOD thing (i think it is, personally), users are accustom to something that Microsoft does that
When linux can say the same, then you're on to something. Until then, stop evangelizing so much and spend more time writing decent drivers.
The server market--esp. web server--Linux is awesome. But desktops are a different beast. You can argue that the desktop shells for Linux are excellent now--and that was an important piece of the puzzle--but now that users have a desktop they might actually want to USE IT for something, and to do that, they'll need support for networking, optical, and video hardware.
they trying to tell us something. Maybe the headlines should read
Dell to Gentoo Linux Users - Not so Fast
or
Dell to Vista Users - Not so Fast
'cause no one has ever installed a Linux on a dell. (Yeah, I realize they want to standardize and document. blah blah)
Power to the Penguin!
This is the third or fourth posting about this in the last couple weeks and it is a total waste of time. DELL ALREADY SELLS COMPUTERS WITH RHEL. Go to Dell and check out their "n" series. We have over 200 Dell 450n/470n/490n Precision workstations that came with RHEL on them (we wiped them and install our own custom Debian build). We also have two racks of their blades (PowerEdge 1855) that are running 64-bit Ubuntu. Dell only provides hardware support for these systems. If you have RHEL problems, you call Dell and they transfer your to Red Hat (since we wipe RHEL off the systems, we are own our own).
Please, please, please Dell and Slashdot editors: just admit it, Dell already sells Linux. Stop these nonsensical postings about corporate posturing.
dd
"if you hang the blame on the wall
there'd be a frame around us all" - Jay Farrar
The LSI controllers that ship with the PowerEdge 1950 are supported very well with either the megaraid2 driver (SCSI) or mptsas (SAS). You can get the array status by running mpt-status. NONE of this software is binary-only or available only from Dell.
That would be wonderful and Dell should advertise the fact and make sure it stays true. This is also known as certifying the hardware. If Dell would certify their hardware for free software, we would all be better off.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Dell is also notorious for tweaking hardware or just plain having inconsistent builds. They're like a network company that likes to switch out wifi and wired nic chipsets on you while not bothering to change the model name on the box.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Yes that's what I would do if I was buying again, but I bought this laptop before I was a full time Linux user.
But I guess they did sell machines with not-yet-existing Vista.
Patents Drive Free Software as Hurricanes Drive Construction Industry
Sure, there is all that but when it comes down to it, Dell not only can't afford to lose any of those Microsoft marketing dollars( something 20% of Dells profits ) but Microsoft has already told them they can sell Linux but can't "lead with Linux". And, they, Microsoft, have probably needed to remind Dell of this and thus the public 'correction' on their stance with regards to pre-installing GNU/Linux and OSS.
If people understood these two little issues, there would be no discussion on Dell pre-installing Linux. Atleast not until Microsoft has less control of them.
IMO
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Well, to see just what would transpire if I looked for a Linux ready machine (Laptop), I went on the Dell site & built a D620 Latitude laptop w/ T7200 processor, 1GB, 80 GB, DVD-+, Intel wireless, 15.4" soopah doopah screen.
Guess what ?
The Windoze XP (or Vista...) machine comes priced seven dollars cheaper ! $1538 for Windoze & $1545 for No OS.
Shouldn't this machine be 30-70 dollars cheaper ( because of no M$ tax ) ??
I just recently bought a hot new laptop & I can tell you it wasn't a Dell because of stupid pricing issues like this. I mean, c'mon, more $$ for the missing M$ operating system ? Sheesh...
Indeed. They can't even get their Vista loads correct. The recent Dell's I bought had Vista.. On boot the system had an error message about the Roxio/Sonic driver not being compatible!! hah.. On top of this, their default Outlook integration completely screws with Outlook (ie you can't use Outlook due to a significant decrease in speed and stability).
I spent way too much time troubleshooting these issues and after having the computers for over two weeks, finally got them deployed yesterday after wasting countless hours with a (very bad assumption) that a computer sold by Dell Small Business and running Vista Business would actually have been tested and work flawlessly with probably the most popular email client on Windows (Outlook 2003).
You really don't get it if you think that a consumer has any desire to worry about their video chipset or WiFi drivers. Seriously.
And your "McD's coffee V. Starbucks coffee" analogy is just bad. These are well branded companies. Any person on the street could tell you that their impression is that Starbucks is further up market than McDonalds. Now go ask them that same question about ATI Vs. nVidia. They'll look at you like you're on LSD. Ditto for Intel WiFi Vs. Broadcom WiFi.
Linux is still offered on "Nerd Terms." Linux may be free of charge but there's still a heavy cost associated with it. If you want to run linux, great, but you're going to have to become a computer expert. You're going to have to understand what a driver is, first of all, and then understand why you need certain makes of hardware. You'll need to understand many of the mundane things that Windows abstracts away. You'll need to know why Broadcom=Bad and Intel=Good except for somethings where Intel=Bad and AMD=Good and you'll have to know what a video card is and why ATI is a huge brand name but ATI=Bad and nVidia=Good and you'll need to understand that SOME nVidia STILL =Bad and the next nVidia card that comes out might =Bad for a year until drivers come out and then it =Good.
To any "average" user that I know, if you'd ask them to pick between learning that, or shelling out another $100 for a copy of Windows, they'll pick Windows in a second.
People always talk about about how "If cars worked like windows, they'd crash all the time..." but you never hear about "If cars worked like linux.."
If cars worked like Linux they'd be totally free, but they'd require you compile them from their parts.
You'd have to know why the Delco spark plugs that fit your car won't work, but the Bosch spark plugs do.
You'd be able to boast that your car can stay running for 300 days even though you don't actually ever need it to.
You'd have a car that doesn't crash but you'd also have a car that you couldn't lend to a friend without giving them a significant training lesson.
You'd have to re-compile the car every time you make a significant addition to it.
It would look like a normal car on the outside, but on the inside, everything you're used to in a Windows world is different.
If you bought a fleet of linux cars for your business, they'd run forever but you'd never have any good drivers.
You could get more speed out of a lesser engine but you'd find that the most common and coolest new roads aren't compatible with your car.
You'd be able to configure things like how many degrees your wheels turn for every revolution of your steering wheel, or how fast your CD plays back, or fuel injection timing, even though you don't want to do those things. At the same time, you'd have to use a CLI to change your radio station or set your climate control.
Etc
I agree! Which is why I wrote what I did!
This complexity must be abstracted away in order to make linux successful on the desktop.
It's as if millions of penguins all cried out at once, and were suddenly silenced.... talk about farce of the penguins. Yeah but does it run lin... nevermind. I for one welcome my non-dell-linux using overlords Dell FTL! Micro$oft made them do it. I use free-bsd you insensitive clod! LINUX RULES, YAY FRIST PSOT! I use the cowboy Neal distro
No self-respecting Linux hacker would vote 600 times in an online poll. Now, writing a script to vote 600 times....
(IANAL)
Or is the big hurdle here that you think the average joe-user is out modding their computers with new hardware and will be tripped up by compatibility problems?. That is not my understanding of joe-user, joe-user gets a computer and expects it to work out of the box, he doesn't install new hardware and doesn't install the OS from scratch and configure it to run his hardware. The most he will ever do is hook up a new printer or plug in a usb device before he gets the next computer.
So, the problem here is a chicken and egg problem not an inherent Linux problem. As long as linux is not preinstalled, then you are right about it not being ready for the average user, because the average user isn't going to be installing an OS from scratch, they are going to let Dell figure it out. Whether or not this is a GOOD thing (i think it is, personally), users are accustom to something that Microsoft does that
That should have been the headline. Dell used to do this With Intel all the time. They would rumour that they were going to use the new AMD chips and then negotiate a better deal from Intel. It took over 8 years of this before Intel finally called their bluff and Dell started buying AMD Chips. Dont expect an increase in Linux from Dell anytime soon.
called me the other day to discuss what I may need in the future.
I asked for a server, but said it must run Linux.
He said, "Our hardware is agnostic, it mostly runs anything. We push Windows because we get paid for it, we do not push one Linux distro over another as they do not pay."
Take it for what it is worth.
Still not sure if the hardware in the servers he quoted will be supported by my distro of choice, Debian.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Why can't Dell just test and certify that all of the hardware they use in building new systems has working drivers that are either free (as in NVIDIA or ATi) or Free (as in already in the kernel), so that when you buy a computer from Dell, you are assured 100% that this hardware will work in Linux and that drivers are easy to acquire and maintain?
THEN worry about OEM Linux.
grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
Your explanation is too simple.
The hand that feeds here, is Microsoft - not the customers. I know this is counterintuitive but it is reality. Dell is a pawn in a much larger chess game.
You see, if Dell agrees to sell MSFT and only MSFT, then they buy ALL copies of windows for, lets say, $25. If they disagree, and decide to sell a different OS - even one copy, the price for ALL of their windows copies goes up to $50.
And that gives Dell's competitors (who pay $25) an edge. So yes, there is big-time systematic pressure applied to make sure that Dell gives customers exactly what Microsoft thinks customers should have. And it's too risky for Dell to fight that unless they can get out from under those types of contracts (which is difficult, just ask food makers how hard it is to get on grocery store shelves)
That's why this is not quite as simple as you make it out to be. MSFT plays a LARGE part of Dell's decision making process because of their pricing control and lack of competitors to windows. Microsoft (very smartly, I might add) has created a scenario where its customers are competing over themselves for the right to sell MSFT software cheaper than the other guy.
So the only reason Dell actually started all this crap to begin with wasn't because they were starting to listen to the demand and trying to sneak around the racketeering agreements that M$ and Dell made to only push Windows, it was because now since M$ thinks they have patent control over Linux (and thus effectively can monopolize/proprietize/control it) that it's OK for Dell to push it out. But only Suse, of course. All other distros are evil "intellectual property" violators, shame on them for STEALING M$'s ideas!
Promote true freedom - support standards and interoperability.
Here's my opinion on Linux. Let me preface this by saying I have found Knoppix to be an invaluable tool in fixing broken Windows installs, and I have a basic grip of compiling and installing a distro and using XAMPP to build up my technology stack. This is all I need to know since my job is writing new software, not administering existing software.
I also have a lot of experience writing windows-based apps.
That being said, my opinion as a long time slashdotter is that the Linux community _hates_ Microsoft so much that they, in effect, throw the baby out with the bathwater. They're unable to see that much of what Microsoft does is actually what consumers want. They ignore this fact with two primary methods of logic: First, that users don't WANT what Microsoft gives them, they just don't have any other choice. Second, that Microsofts products shouldn't be respected because they couldn't stand on their own two feet. The second fact is a corollary from the opinion that since Microsoft has no cred on the tough engineering issues (security is the typical example), they are not the people one should be taking direction from.
My opinion is that Linux would be much more successful today if it weren't for this mindset. This has worked to bring in the most devout microsoft haters but it's at the expense of the larger population. A left wing candidate could rally the Nader-esque base by adopting a socialist platform, and they'd get a hugely devoted base, but they'd do it at the expense of the vast population that's turned off by their views.
Specifically, Microsoft makes software that the average user finds usable. The obvious proof of this is that they do, in fact, use it every day. Can Word or Excel be improved? Yes. Absolutely. But are they still used to produce millions of vital documents daily? Again, Absolutely.
I once built a website that completely ripped off the Amazon shopping cart system (no One Click, of course). The client at first objected to my plan. It would be JUST LIKE amazon he complained. I reminded him that when you walk into Krogers (grocer story chain) you don't say "Oh my god! Look at their checkout! They copied that EXACTLY from Wal Mart!" In fact, it's an unconscious relief. It's familar.
Microsoft had the benefit of setting the baseline. Most people know the concept of a personal computer only thru the offering of Microsoft.
Linux, IMO, has spent too much time trying for revolution and not enough working on evolution. To a Linux enthusiast they seem to come off to me as somebody that desperately wants to flick the light switch on and display a whole new word to the User. They want to bust the paradigms. These are noble goals but they require a leap of faith on the part of the user that the user isn't particularly interested in making.
My suggestions to the linux community would be to really examine what works about Windows. Like it or not, there's a lot. There really is. Don't get hung up over how much trouble the Registry has caused. Don't get jaded by UAC. Don't box it in based on it's security flaws. Reduce it to the DNA that makes it usable to the average joe.
Then copy it. Rip it off. They say that good writers borrow from other writers and great writers steal from them outright. Well, steal from them outright. To do this you might have to abandon the moral high ground that lets you look down your nose at Microsofts culture of "innovation by acquisition" but WHO CARES?
The issue it seems to me is that the Linux movemement often comes across to me as "Rule One, Hate (and beat) Microsoft." "Rule Two: Build great software."
The only way to succeed is to really, REALLY, drop Rule one. Or at least swap the order of the two rules.
Users want ubiquitous hardware. (Yes, I'm using ubiquitous in a wrong way but you get it). They want to not worry about what's under the hood. They want it to work. They want to be able to share shit with their friends. Etc.
Right now, Linux is just not there. It's not. Don't hate me for sa
He's not telling dear old Dell to go stuff themselves, he has no interest in them whatsoever. He's just karma whoring to validate his existence. Slashdot mod points are everything to him.
If they just give me a notebook without Winblows, they don't need to install Linux in my system, I take care of that. I just want a cheaper system :). I could love Dell forever if they do that.
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