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Is Vista a Trap?
logube writes "BBC has up an article about the trap of installing Vista in your existing desktop. Written by Tim Weber, a self-confessed 'sucker for technology,' this article is a good introduction to the pain and extra money required to get going with the newest version of Windows. See how you can spend an extra 130 british pounds, and still have no working webcam! Says Weber, 'It took me one day to get online. The detail is tedious and highly technical: reinstalling drivers and router firmware didn't work, but after many trial and error tweaks to Vista's TCP/IP settings, I had internet access. Once online, Creative's website told me that my sound card was a write-off. No Vista support would be forthcoming.'"
as this happened with xp-64, didn't it?
also, by that logic, linux is a trap
Focus your fire on that unsupported hardware!
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
Why do I get the feeling this was posted solely to let people use "itsatrap" as a tag?
Secession is the right of all sentient beings.
Directx 10. They could have put out an XP version. (of course that doesnt sell CDs) You will need DX10 for upcoming games. Security updates (there still must be holes). Besides that I say wait as long as you can.
Libertarian Leaning Political Discussion Forum.
Burn the MSDN image, grab RAID drivers for my onboard RAID, put the drivers on my USB key, then boot the Vista install disk. Go through the usual setup with the drivers. Reboot. All hardware is auto-detected and drivers installed except for my Creative Audigy 2 sound card. Pull the drivers from their site and install. Update nVidia drivers while I'm at it. Works great, no problems.
Nothing that you probably need. Its slightly better than XP. Not 5-years-of-development better, but slightly. For all the flack, FUD, and outright lies that Slashdotters fling about UAC, it actually is a good idea, and a step in the right direction for Windows.
Every time there is news like this the fanboys shout 'you shoulda known' and
'get new hardware'. I have a better idea. Let's call Vista not an upgrade but a wholesale replacement of your computer and many of your applications. Most of your data will work in the new system but that's about it.
No - Vista is barely less of an upgrade than switching from XP to a Mac.
Vista won't recognise my C64 tape drive either! Those MS bastards! It's a conspiracy, I tell you!
A list of new features: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_new_to_Windo ws_Vista
win98 -> 2000, lots of problems with lack of drivers for older hardware
2000 -> XP still problems with lack of drivers for older hardware (although maybe not as many)
XP -> Vista well, what do you think?
-- the cake is a lie
Interesting! Does this mean that we might start seeing Windows customers agitating for open hardware specs so that interested parties can pick up the ball dropped by the vendor and write their own drivers?
...Just like the Linux guys have been doing for the last <*cough*> years?
Oh, wait. You have to be "certified" by Microsoft to write a usable Vista driver. Never mind...
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Thanks, but I don't need anyone correcting me with something that's wrong. Microsoft has full prerogative in deciding what their OS does with regards to DRM. No law mandates the use of DRM, so it's purely Microsoft's choice.
Your "correction" is also wrong in another way: it's not just the music industry that has a stake in Vista's DRM - the movie industry is just as, if not more, interested in that "feature" of Vista.
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Okay, it's bad for the poor people who have to buy new hardware because they can't get vista drivers for their existing stuff.
But it means a good load of ebay bargains for those of us running open source operating systems with support for just about everything built in.
I haven't actually noticed the bargains happening much yet, but they will come. Just like last time shortly after Windows XP came out. Second hand USB stuff was going for next to nothing on ebay.
-- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz
Microsoft isn't completely blameless here. If Microsoft had adopted the same strategy for drivers as the OpenBSD project has (accepting either fully open drivers or no drivers), then somebody (even Microsoft) could make the drivers work on Vista.
This is yet another why open drivers built from publicly-available hardware documentation are better than binary-blob drivers.
http://outcampaign.org/
Considering that Microsoft says a 1 GHz PC with 512 MB RAM will run Vista, he probably expected a working system.
I think Vista uses more RAM to display a window than my OS/2 Warp system used to run half a dozen apps (I had 8 MB of RAM on an AMD 486/40).
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I can't even do an "oblig"!!! The article title already did :(
Umm, at least a baseline support for that hardware? For a company so prided on backwards compatibility, Microsoft sure has given the finger hardcore to a lot of people when it comes to Vista.
For comparison: I have an Apple iMac G3 400MHz with 768MB RAM and a 40GB disk happily running OS X 10.4. This machine also has a (nonupgradeable) 8MB ATI video card. Note that this computer, at this moment, is almost 8 years old, and runs Tiger like a champ. Sure, I don't get all the cool effects, but the key is I didn't have to do a damn thing to make it work, it just did, and it doesn't even attempt the effects it can't handle. I can browse the internet, use iTunes, type in Word, Excel, Pages or Keynote, check my email, and even watch DVD's. And you know what? It runs 10.4 FASTER than it runs 10.3. Given, it's still a bit slower than OS 9, but given the added capabilities of it and it still being useable in OS X, that's a pretty damn good trade-off.
I hate sigs...
Linux as a whole might take some blame if an older version worked with the hardware (say in kernel 2.4) , but a newer version (say kernel 2.6) didn't. This does happen on occasion, but it is generally fixed-up by either an OSS developer that wants to use the hardware, or the vendor (such as the Nvidia binaries).
Remember, Vista is purported to be somewhat of an upgrade/improvement over XP. That means that people expect it to do what XP does, and more. It's still MS windows, just a newer, shinier, bulkier ones.
So if your winmodem worked in 2.4.x and not in 2.6.x, you might have a legitimate gripe at linux. Generally such things come out in the next-version bugfixes, but issues do happen where a particular newer version does not like certain hardware, or the source-code for modules doesn't compile and no newer-version source is available. If there never was support for your winmodem in the first place (note, WINmodem is a good giveway that it's not non-windows friendly), then the blame rests somewhat on the manufacturer for not providing a driver, or at least specs for such. In the case of winmodems, the software pretty much is most of the product, so the manufacturers guard it fairly closely.
I'm no longer running it because it wasn't very stable (read: Vista and things like Media Center were not stable from a clean install, not the third party software drivers were unstable), but it's pretty good for games, at least it seems like it will be when driver support is there.
For example, I installed the Beta Nvidia drivers, which while giving me over all worse performance because of a lack of SLI support, did actually give a demonstrable and perceptible performance boost (as promised), even though the drivers were not file.
DirectX 10 is the thing that's likely to get me to upgrade again to it, hopefully by the time it's 'mainstream' a service pack or two will be out.
Wow, completely missed the section of the article where he clearly says he *ran* said Upgrade adviser (which is what led to a Graphics card update among a few other things) but that he later still had problems with unsupported/non-functional hardware the adviser didn't give a peep about, huh? Give you a hint... second part of the article after "A blunt message"... starts with "But this was probably not enough, so I downloaded Microsoft's Vista Upgrade Advisor."
Sheesh.
Yeah seriously. I don't think the people that would buy Vista for DX10 are going to sit around for 5 years while Wine works on DX10. Wine is great and all, but that's really just not going to cut it. Like it or not, you are going to need Vista for DirectX10...there's no doubt about that.
"Those who would sacrifice essential liberties for a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - BenF
Yes unfortunately I tend to forget how different /. is when it comes to vague posts or ranting.
I have used Vista, I do not like it, it's intrusive and annoying to me (yes I do want to run that exe), I personally don't care about eye candy, I am into performance which vista does not have unless you are running a state of the art proc, 4 gig's of RAM and a high end graphics card (which none have decent drivers as of yet)
I'm not going to get into the DRM portion of Vista.
You're a sucker to buy it and a fool to run it.
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
I've been running Vista at work for a few months now, since Beta 2, doing compatibility testing. I have thus far not managed to run in to its DRM. This is because I don't have any DRM'd media. It turns out there are not evil DRM gremlins hiding on my system, trying to steal my media. All the video I shoot and edit works fine, my OGG/FLAC collection works fine, etc. Yes, if I were to get an HD-DVD or Blu-ray drive and try to play movies I'm sure I'd have to contend with the DRM. Well, I'm not so there's not really a concern there.
Basically to me Vista's DRM doesn't add any value, but it doesn't interfere with my work in any way. Thus I really just don't care. I don't see any way it it hurts my fair use. Please remember that the HD formats are encrypted anyhow, it's not like Vista does anything with that, and the decryption tools that have been released run fine on Vista. Maybe I'll encounter a problem with it at some point (that's why I'm testing it, to see what the problems with supporting it will be) but not yet.
It seems to me that "DRM" has become a poorly defined scare word for many people. They throw it around without knowing what it really means, just that it is bad and that you should hate it. I agree that DRM is not a useful technology, but let's be straight about when it does and doesn't matter. Vista does not have DRM gremlins that try to eat your media. Your unDRM'd media does not stop working, the tools for creating it do not stop working. No, video output is not degraded, I get full resolution in everything I do (since all the media isn't DRM'd) despite lacking an HDCP monitor and video card.
If it doesn't affect you, not likely to make it in to a "thing that didn't work for me" article, is it?
... doesn't have a single decent image-browser ...
... dc++ client ...
... office suite ...
... Not to mention decent looking fonts ...
Gwenview, Picasa...
Is in production. Check the CVS for latest builds.
I really don't understand why you included this. OpenOffice.org, KOffice, AbiWord; all more than comparable to MS Word.
In Debian based distros, sudo apt-get install msttcorefonts. Rather simple. Other distros have packages of their own.
In short, I'm under the impression that you haven't really tried to use a modern Linux distro for more than the five minutes it took you to stereotype it, say, "This sucks because it's not what I'm used to!", and go back to Windows.
"We may face a scorched and lifeless earth, but they're accountable to their shareholders first."
So, what you're saying it's kind of like installing an oddball wi-fi card on Linux. Except without the option of reading hundreds of pages of obscure documentation until you've transformed yourself into a mutant linux hotplugging guru.
In a nutshell, the differnce between getting things working in Linux and Windows seems to be this. Linux is like being parachuted into the wilderness with a hammer, forge, and load of pig iron. Windows is like being parachuted into the wilderness with an impressive looking knife that snaps in two if you don't use it very, very carefully.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
From the article:Uhm, no it isn't, not really. As the author later discovers (but still doesn't realize), getting hardware to work often involves hardware, drivers and OS (and sometimes other software). While we all wish it were that easy, us "expensive PC helpers" have the skills to deal with those cases when it isn't.
For example:Wizards? This suggests that the author does not know how to get to the properties of whatever network protocol (I'm assuming TCP/IP) he's using and configure them directly.You can find out by following the instructions at
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/298837.
I'm not defending Vista, but I also bristle when people devalue and disrespect people in IT/IS. We make things look easy because we're good at what we do.
I'm not sure what lies you've been reading about UAC, but it conditions users to always say "Yes" to security prompts. This is a very terrible idea and in this situation the criticism is well deserved.
"You are about to open the Control Panel -- allow or deny?"
"You are about to open the Program Files folder -- allow or deny?"
"You are about to modify user preferences -- allow or deny?
"You are about to open attachment pzxyTrojan.exe -- allow or deny?"
Allow.. allow.. allow.. allow.. allow..
I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
How would they enforce it? If a company just puts out a binary driver, what's to stop the user from installing it? Can YOU think of a way?
Sorry, but there is just NO way Microsoft could ever enforce that policy. Stop blaming Microsoft for corporations wanting to keep their drivers secret so that their competitors don't use them to improve their OWN drivers.
My sig can beat up your sig.
People who run linux. If it ran on the last version, it is almost certain to run on the next. Unless it's 15 year old hardware. No, wait, most of that works too.
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
Honestly, who does an OS upgrade and not check for hardware compatibility?
If you RTFA, you'll see that he a) used a Microsoft app that checks your system for Vista compatibility before installing; b) replaced his incompatible hardware before the install with hardware stated to work with Vista by the manufacturer.
Short of having someone lend him the hardware to try it out with Vista, I don't really see what else he could have done to avoid problems...
Seven puppies were harmed during the making of this post.
Pot. Kettle. Black. Microsoft isn't going to force vendors to open source their drivers when they so closely guard their own code. What's good for the gander is good for the goose and all that.
You're point is well taken however. I don't see why hardware vendors don't release their source code. They can patent the hardware if it truly contains innovations and with software patents they could patent all or part of the driver if it's anything special and release the code under whatever license they deem appropriate.
If I was evaluating two pieces of expensive hardware that performed equally well I'd take the piece with open source drivers over the piece that didn't have open source drivers even if it cost more just for insurance on the investment. You'd think that having open source drivers would be a point that high end hardware manufacturers, especially new ones, could compete on.
It doesn't matter whose fault it is, Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista or the hardware vendor, the fact of the matter is that people expect their computers to "Just Work"(tm). All my grandma is going to know is that under Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista, her sound card doesn't work, but under Windows XP it did. Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista needs to support this hardware out of the box, and until it does, Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista will never be ready for the desktop.
Seriously, you Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista fanboys need to stop living in denial and admit that Linux^H^H^H^H^HVista has some serious problems that make it unusable for most people.
http://www.mhall119.com
Not supporting DX9 makes no business sense. DX10-only games will be games by Microsoft, or games for which Microsoft paid the developer their expected DX9 profits to be DX10-only.
I was reading an article recently where people were looking for ways to explain what the problems are with digital rights management technology to non technically minded people.
Examples given tended to be along the lines of "I can't watch foreign released films, they were never released locally so I have no legal option, and I need this for my book report." and "You shouldn't have to pay for that song again, you already paid for it."
These are, quite frankly, not the most pressing examples I could think of.
Here's some examples you can show your mom and dad:
1) Broadcast news will be all be digitally signed by the big media companies.
The same technology used to cause your saved version of American Idol to self-destruct can be used after the fact to erase news right off your home electronics. It will also prevent it from being transferred to unprotected permanent media, or played back from any backup.
2) Medical software and data will all be digitally signed by the rights owners.
The same technology used to stop software piracy could be used after the fact to switch off hospitals and clinics that don't pay their bills. There is massive financial incentive to design this to happen automatically. Anyone who doubts the realism of this scenario need only look as far as the behavior of the existing drug companies.
3) Company files will all be digitally signed.
If you are being screwed over by your employer or any company you have business dealings with, they will be able to ensure that you don't make anyone else aware of it.
Anyone who thinks this technology is about protecting Britney Spears from Bluebeard the Pirate is missing the point. This is about totalitarianism.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
It's about time to give up on PC gaming, especially with the beauty, convenience and comfort of today's powerful consoles (both of them). Nothing compares to 5.1 Dolby TrueHD sound blasting from a nice surround system while you're seated on a comfortable couch in front of your high-def TV of choice. You get your shooters, online games, web surfing, etc.
With Vista, MS gives us another reason to turn towards consoles as a smarter choice. It's currently an unnecessary upgrade that wraps your media in shackles with DRM and pesters you every 5 minutes to second guess whatever you want to do with it. Oh and it's expensive and won't look pretty unless you spend some $$$ on your computer.
The days of Wintendo are numbered and I think Vista is a good reason to bring the curtain down.
"...but its nice to know my account has user level priveledges[sic] instead of admin..."
Awesome, welcome to 1975! You must be a really proud owner of a modern, prior art ripping operating system.
Remember, Microsoft said exactly the same thing about XP and 2000 that they do about Vista, and that they have about every single version of Windows except pehaps 1.0: "Faster, more secure, more personalized, better than ever before!"
And we say exactly the same thing we've always said: "Bloated, incompatible, too invasive, look at that WGA!" XP has the same privacy issues, 2000 had worse (if possible) compatibility issues.
But around SP1 or SP2, XP became livable, arguably better than 2000. And probably around SP1, 2000 became stable enough, and was obviously a HUGE upgrade compared to 98 -- so huge that if they hadn't done it when they did, Linux probably would've taken over.
So, we're going to have the same thing happen here. I predict that in roughly 2 years, around SP1 or SP2, Vista will actually be better than XP. But it isn't yet -- too much stuff isn't compatible, and the "beta" was a laugh; if you buy it now, you are their gamma testers.
Smart people stick with XP, and let the rest of the world test and debug Vista for us.
Me? I'll keep dual-booting XP and Linux (Ubuntu here, Gentoo at home).
Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
About being certified by MS...I'm not sure where you are getting your information from, but it is wrong.
Want to develop drivers for Vista, Server 2003, XP, W2k, and possibly older MS platforms? Hit the download button from here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/ddk/default .mspx/.
Want a kernel debugger and access to the O/S symbol files? Try here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/devtools/debugging/d efault.mspx.
Need some know-how on passing the Windows logo requirements? Try here http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/whql/WHQLdwn.mspx
How about 64-bit Vista drivers? Well, those have to be digitally signed. Try here for more info http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/system/platform/64bi t/kmsigning.mspx
Total cost to you: Zero. Well, that certificate for signing the 64-bit drivers costs money, but that's not going to MS.
I understand the general /. attitude towards most things MS, but at least try to get the facts straight before you spread FUD around.
Stay hopeful that the Crystalline Amoeba poops your car out soon
FPSs, MMORPGs and RTSs all suck on consoles. Considering that I'm only interested in those genres and that online play with a fast control scheme (ie. keyboard and mouse) is a requirement for me to even consider playing, I think I'll stick with my PC.
Media Center records all content into the .ms-dvr format which contains DRM. However, since you have Media Center you have either Home Premium or Ultimate; therefor you could use Windows DVD Maker which will capture the video without DRM. Media Center's video capture is for TV shows and some of them like sports broadcasts require DRM. If you use the wrong tool for the job it could see it not working how you except.
Fuck that! Why would I want to replace my nice, general-purpose, hackable PC with DRM-infested proprietary crap?
(Note: I'm not going to be playing games on Vista, either.)
"[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz
Because in Soviet America, America hates you.
(sorry - couldn't resist)
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
Or even ditching DX completely and using OpenGL.
Game companies arent stupid. They know people are trying other OS's.
Google, id software, Epic and others have moved accordingly.
I'm betting that other companies are considering it.
So, it sounds like when they are done reimplementing UNIX, they might just have a fine operating system.
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
http://www.dwheeler.com/blog/2007/01/07/#drm-nonse nse-hddvd
Nuff Said.
David Wheeler has got it all in a screenful. Why it doesn't do the content-providers any good, why it doesn't do the "consumer" any good, and why it's all a waste of time anyway.
All written in clear English.
One quote from the article: "I do not approve of piracy. I don't approve of murder, either, yet I approve of the sale of steak knives and cleaning supplies... and would oppose trying to halt their sales."
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re