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"Market Share" "Installed Base" and Consumer Electronics

redrum writes "Analysts and reporters like to talk about market share statistics, but the conclusions they draw are often misleading, RDM reports. Market Share Myth 2007: iPod vs Zune and Mac vs PC takes a look at how numbers are used to paint grossly inaccurate portrayals of the market share of the Zune among iPods, and alternatively the Mac among PCs. A follow up article, Market Share vs Installed Base: iPod vs Zune, Mac vs PC demonstrates how the conventional wisdom of market share reporting can be turned upside down by simply comparing what vendors actually sell. An eye opening, in depth look at the real numbers behind PCs, music players, and console games."

50 of 264 comments (clear)

  1. Ahhh, roughly drafted by DingerX · · Score: 3, Insightful
    No offense guys, but:

    While analysts once liked to say that the Zune would take over the music player world in the same manner that Windows PCs engulfed the Mac, the situation was really not even remotely similar. Analysts had things entirely backwards.

    Sorry guys, the "Pro-Microsoft Press" is as much a straw-man shibboleth as "Main Stream Media's Liberal Bias". Give me a break!

    How many analysts out there saw the Zunes Microsoft unveiled last fall and actually predicted a success? I'm sorry, I call BS, along with the claim that the iPod created the market for HD-based players. HD-players existed long before the iPod, and anyone who remembers the lawsuits involving the Diamond Rio knows that the path to iPod's success was oiled with the blood of its competition.

    I'm not saying the iPod didn't create a huge demand, and grab a large part of the exploding market, but let's not exaggerate things here.

    Put another way, do we really need a pro-mac blog to provide a multi-part essay on why the Zune is not a success? I mean, this thing is as much a dog as the Apple ROKR!
    1. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 3, Informative

      The blog entry didn't say that iPod created the hard drive market, it claimed that iPod expanded the market. The blog entry was pretty clear in stating that there were hard drive players before the iPod.

    2. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by kalidasa · · Score: 2, Informative

      Put another way, do we really need a pro-mac blog to provide a multi-part essay on why the Zune is not a success? I mean, this thing is as much a dog as the Apple ROKR!


      Actually, that's the Motorola ROKR; it wasn't an Apple product, but merely licensed Apple software. If you had said "Apple Newton" or "Apple Lisa," you'd have made a better point (but not "Apple Pippin," as the Pippin was also intended to be a licensed technology platform and not an Apple product.

    3. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by SnowZero · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm not sue what article you read. The one I read jumped all over between topics, didn't finish one issue before launching into the next, and included graphs that it didn't even adequately explain. Roughly drafted, indeed.

    4. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by jrumney · · Score: 2, Informative

      The blog entry didn't say that iPod created the hard drive market, it claimed that iPod expanded the market.

      Expanded isn't really the right word. When the first iPod came along, hard-drive players were using 3.5" laptop hard-drives. Apple found a manufacturer that was about to launch 2.5" drives, and bought 6 months of their entire production, blocking competitors from being able to match their smaller players for the first six months of the iPods life.

    5. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by gozar · · Score: 4, Informative

      Expanded isn't really the right word. When the first iPod came along, hard-drive players were using 3.5" laptop hard-drives. Apple found a manufacturer that was about to launch 2.5" drives, and bought 6 months of their entire production, blocking competitors from being able to match their smaller players for the first six months of the iPods life.

      It was actually other manufacturers using 2.5" drives when Toshiba introduced the 1.8" drive with which Apple used with the iPods.

      --
      What, me worry?
    6. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by Brett+Johnson · · Score: 2, Informative

      This didn't matter much, because the first iPod sucked (small capacity, Mac-only, no AAC support, mechanical scroll wheel prone to failure, etc.)
      I had a 1st generation iPod and loved it.
      • small capacity - 5GB was a hell of a lot more capacity than the Rio 800 I had beforehand.
      • Mac-only - I have 4 Macs, so that wasn't an issue. Even after Windows support was added later, Firewire-only was the real problem (so few PCs had working Firewire).
      • no AAC - When Apple started shipping AAC, it provided a firmware upgrade to all iPods (including 1st gens) adding AAC support.
      • mechanical scroll wheel - I still prefer the feel of the mechanical scroll wheel. Mine never failed - and I could use it when wearing gloves.

      Actually, my biggest complaint of the 1st generation iPod was its size and weight. You could put it in a shirt pocket, but you wouldn't want to. Eventually, the hard disk in my 1st gen died after 5 years, so I replaced it with an 8GB nano.
    7. Re:Ahhh, roughly drafted by ZenShadow · · Score: 2

      Lesson: if you don't want to feel like punching someone in the face because of their stance on the PC, then don't read a blog post in a pro-mac rag.

      --S

      --
      -- sigs cause cancer.
  2. My favorite "market share" story: AppleWorks by dpbsmith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    During the 1980s, the computer trade press ran top-forty-like software sales ranking charts. About a year after the release of Lotus 1-2-3, it occupied #1 slot and did so, regularly as clockwork, month after month. It became a unchallenged truism that 1-2-3 was the best-selling software title, perhaps of all time.

    Gradually, it transpired that this simply wasn't true. The best-selling software title was, in fact, AppleWorks, a spreadsheet/word processor/"database" for the Apple II line.

    What had happened was very simple. Apple sold AppleWorks directly. The only place you could buy it off the shelf (which at that time was still an important sales channel) was at an Apple dealer. That AppleWorks outsold 1-2-3 should not have been much of a surprise, because it was much cheaper, and because Apple dealers frequently included in it attractively-priced bundles.

    But of the published figures were based on sales by Corporate Software, Incorporated. Since AppleWorks was never sold by Corporate Software or any other third party, it was literally off the charts.

  3. Make it required tech journalism reading by vingt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd like to see this become required for all those choosing to write in the field of tech journalism, be they pundits, journalists, bloggers, thinktank members or any other name.

    [ The examples were fun, too - Microsoft, Walmart, RIAA and the 70s? I thought "one of these things is not like the others" :-) ]

    1. Re:Make it required tech journalism reading by hcmtnbiker · · Score: 3, Insightful
      In other words, show me an analyst that predicted the Zune would be a success, and then we'll talk.

      That is very true. I remeber reading an interview with the team leader of the Zune, he didn't even predict a success. His words where something close to "the phrase 'ipod killer' is a misnomer, i mean the pmp market is huge, we'll be happy with as little as 5-10% of it." Don't go preaching "A Microsoft Failure" when thier attempt wasnt even to kill the ipod, but simply increase thier revenue on a growing market.

      As for "Apple vs PC"... Mac holds a very powerful niche in the PC market, they may only hover arround 5% of total market share, but they make some nice money doing it. Secondly why is Apple trying to say Macs anrt PCS? If they're not "personal computers" then wtf are they?

      Anyways, a blog that's whole purpose is anti-M$ and pro-Mac, might be fun for /. readers, but really holds no ground. For thier "PC vs Mac: Cost" page they include things like:

      Seven years of AntiVirus 2000 $50, plus $30 for six annual updates = $230
      "Spyware and security cleaning by Geek Squad: a $200 annual servicing over seven years = $1400" and for mac:

      No antivirus needed No spyware cleaning needed
      Now I dont know about you, but i've never seen a Mac without Symantec installed on it, and I dont know of a single person who has ever used Geek Squad, IMHO if you need Geek Squad you dont deserve to opperate a computer anyways, and that $1400 you blow on them is your own fault.
      --
      If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
    2. Re:Make it required tech journalism reading by RFaulder · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now I dont know about you, but i've never seen a Mac without Symantec installed on it, and I dont know of a single person who has ever used Geek Squad, IMHO if you need Geek Squad you dont deserve to opperate a computer anyways, and that $1400 you blow on them is your own fault.

      Wow, I didn't even know Symantec even makes anto-spyware or the mac, especially since it doesn't exist (for now). And as for Geek Squad, the Best Buys in my city give you a Geek-Squad install thing when you buy a new computer, so I'd assume that after they set up a box in people's homes they realize that the service was quite nice and get them in more often.
    3. Re:Make it required tech journalism reading by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now I dont know about you, but i've never seen a Mac with Symantec installed on it

      there. I fixed it for you.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
    4. Re:Make it required tech journalism reading by Fred_A · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow, I didn't even know Symantec even makes anto-spyware or the mac, especially since it doesn't exist (for now).
      I wasn't aware of any such product either (but then my iBook is mostly a typewriter to me). So I went to Symantec's site and did indeed find a few MacOS products. Couldn't quite see the point of them though. Other than making money for Symantec that is. Oh. Right. Sorry. I get it now.
      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
  4. "Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Myth busting is good. It is even better when it is based on actual documentation, not just some personal pet theories and anecdotes. There are some pretty graphs there, but conclusions based on undocumented assumptions like these can hardly be called "An eye opening, in depth look at the real numbers":

    Assigning Macs a five year useful life span, and PCs a two year life span, the installed base for Macs among PCs on the planet is around 4.5%.
    Well, assigning this author a low credibility, it is clear that this author has a low credibiliy.
    1. Re:"Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Instead of skimming the article, try reading all of it. He indicates that they idea of 5 year useful life span for mac's vs. 2 for PC's was based on anectodal evidence, yes, but evidence. He didn't just create those numbers out of thin air.

      In studying the history of PC purchases made by a client with around a hundred employees, I found the company was still using all of their original Macs dating back to 2001, with a few even older Macs still in secondary use. In contrast, there were no PCs more than three years old still in use, and most of the older models were in poor shape. Around 80% of its machines were PCs, and nearly all of those were commercial grade Dell OptiPlex or Latitude models; the other 20% were Macs. About a third of the entire 115 machines were laptops.
      Besides, I've seen several articles over the years indicating that mac's have a longer usful life than PC's. If you need more anecdotal evidence my family has 3 macs that originally shipped pre-Mac OS 10 (2 with OS 9.1 and 1 with the last version of OS 8). they are all currently running OS 10.4 and used every day. I also have one that's sitting in the closet that has 10.3 installed on it and the only reason it's in the closet is because I own more computers than there are people in my house hold.
      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    2. Re:"Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by 0xdeadbeef · · Score: 3, Funny

      Have you considered the reasons for that lifespan?

      PCs are cheap as dirt, and the components are modular and replaceable. Upgrading is not quite the life decision it is with a Mac.
      There is a lot of PC software. To compete, PC software consumes resources in a never ending arms race to impress users.
      The upgrade cycle is implied. PC software is written with the expectation that most users will have current hardware.

      And BTW, as the Mac cultists were eager to point out in that laptop reliability thread from a few weeks ago, anecdotes are like opinions in that they are like assholes. Everyone thinks their ass is demonstrative of reality, while actually, strippers shave and bleach theirs. Does that clear things up?

    3. Re:"Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by smallfries · · Score: 2, Informative

      You keep refering to "anecdotal evidence" as evidence. It is only evidence that a) a single office has macs with a lifespan that long and b) your family has macs with a lifespan that long. The whole point with anecdotal evidence is that it is not evidence that the lifespan of macs in the marketplace is normally that long.

      This announcement was brought to you by the board of pendantic criticism.

      PS I've had my PC for about 8 years. It's had a couple of new motherboards, a new case, new harddrives, many processors and several videocards. Does this datapoint prove anything?

      --
      Slashdot: where don knuth is an idiot because he cant grasp the awesome power of php
    4. Re:"Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by SnowZero · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I did read it. Another thing he says is that once a PC has Linux on it, it doesn't count and its beyond its useful life, because it no longer contributes to the software market. So, even though the PC is still around, it doesn't count, while the Mac does, even if it hasn't had a software upgrade in several years. What does the software have to do with the hardware anyway? His assumption also means that all of my computers had a "useful life" of one day, since I installed Linux on them. So, he's fighting myths and massaged numbers... with his own massaged numbers and broken assumptions, often conflating hardware with software.

    5. Re:"Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by mp3phish · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Give me a greak. They bought Optiplex and Latitude systems which "barely" lasted 3 years? PLEASE. They all come with STANDARD 3 yr warranties. They ALWAYS last 3 years +. Meanwhile, the mac's come with 1 year warranties and most IT departments do not purchase the extended plan. (not at the price he is showing as the "average")

      I'm sorry, but this article lost 100% total credibility by stating that dells can barely be supported for 3 years. If his so called "Dedicated IT Department" is having that many problems with the Dells, then they have some major competency problems. We deploy $4 million in dell client systems a year and around 1/2 million in apples in a managed environment. I can tell you for sure that the apples lifespan is around the same as any other brand. If anything, the apples cost the IT department more in labor per machine because their ASP certification process is more expensive and harder to maintain, and parts are not as available in the warranty realm as they are with Dell, which guarantees (and are the only one in the industry who comes through on it) overnighted parts on every optiplex and latitude sold.

      The systems break equally as much at best, and if anything, more when you are dealing with gen1 apple products (gen1 macbook, gen1 macbook pro, gen1 intel iMac, gen1 PPC iMac (after the ilamp). When you are forced to deploy new motherboards to all your newly deployed gen1 macbooks, the labor costs tend to go up. The last time dell systems required major component replacements in a widespread environment was with the GX270 motherboard leaky capacitors (which did not cause substantial problems until most systems were out of the 3 year warranty). This issue is over 4 years old prior to it there were no other major issues. These types of major recalls are a regular occurrence from Apple with every gen1 product they ship. These aren't published recalls, they are ASP recalls. This means that the only people who know about them are the service providers and anyone they tell (like customers). Apple does not admit in the press that they are recalls, and it is against NDA for an ASP to.

      If you have "read plenty of articles" stating that apples last longer then more power to you. But articles don't make facts. Real world events are facts. Articles are just articles. Most articles which state that apples last longer are not based on fact, but are based on the same personal experience of the author, who has had no extensive experience dealing with large scale deployments of PC hardware, or even mac hardware for that matter.

      --
      Your ignorance is infinitely greater than you realize.
    6. Re:"Myth busting" with undocumented assumptions? by toddestan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Both Mac and PC hardware lasts a long time, and the service life boils down to just how long you want to keep them running. Which is his point, PCs are dirt cheap, especially used PCs, so why bother with old PC systems running when a replacement is cheap?

      And last time I checked, OSX has been getting slower over the last couple of years. You probably don't notice it on newer systems, but the added bloat of features like Spotlight and Dashboard have really been putting the crunch on older systems, especially if they have low memory and/or slow harddrives.

  5. Re:Who is redrum? by Joebert · · Score: 2, Funny

    While you suck on pop music and network television, the rest of us will be changing the world.

    You're not going to get rid of the pop music & network television are you ?
    I don't think you realize how long it took to get that automated babysitter working like it does.
    --
    Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
  6. Not real sales by cperciva · · Score: 3, Interesting

    That AppleWorks outsold 1-2-3 should not have been much of a surprise, because it was much cheaper, and because Apple dealers frequently included in it attractively-priced bundles.

    This qualifies AppleWorks as being one of the most distributed pieces of software, but doesn't really qualify it as being one of the most sold pieces of software. For something to be "sold", it must be "bought"; and for something to be "bought", there must be a deliberate action ("hey, I want that"), not just a grudging acceptance ("in order to get X, which I want, I have to agree to have Y and Z, which are utterly useless garbage").

    1. Re:Not real sales by C0vardeAn0nim0 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      so, by your reasoning MS Windows isn't one of the most "sold" pieces of software ever ?

      but it still generates revenue, and for most, this is what counts. specially for shareholders.

      --
      What ? Me, worry ?
  7. Most interesting part by proberts · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The most interesting part of both articles was:

    ====
    In the final quarter of 2007, Apple earned $7.1 billion in revenue, compared to Microsoft's $12.5 billion in total revenue. Yes, that's right, Apple brought in more than half as much money as Microsoft, despite Windows owning 98% of the PC market.

    Even stripping Apple of its iPod revenues, which PC pundits love to do, the company still earned $4.4 billion on its Macintosh business, over a third as much Microsoft brought in from its entire Windows, Office, and server operations combined. Apple's 2% of the PC market doesn't seem so small anymore.

    Of course, Microsoft actually lost a lot of money on all of its consumer electronics products, so looking at profits, Apple earned $1 billion compared to Microsoft's total $3.4 billion in profit.
    ====

    Now, I don't know why he chose only the fourth quarter, but it's going to make me go back and look at the numbers for 2004-2006, because if that's a trend it's a very interesting one.

    Paul

    --
    http://www.pauldrobertson.com
    1. Re:Most interesting part by dreamchaser · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not to mention that revenue !=profit, and that the margins on hardware (Apple) and Software (MS) are *vastly* different.

      It's not even really apples to oranges...it's apples to rocks.

    2. Re:Most interesting part by RootWind · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That is exactly why Apple will never license out OSX. Every single percentage that Apple can gain of pure marketshare (hardware & software), is a whole lot more potent than just either or. The only reason Apple would license out OSX or sell Apple hardware with another OS is if they are sinking ship.

    3. Re:Most interesting part by Echnin · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Did you miss the part about profits?


      Of course, Microsoft actually lost a lot of money on all of its consumer electronics products, so looking at profits, Apple earned $1 billion compared to Microsoft's total $3.4 billion in profit.

      Rouding up, Apple's profits are 30% of Microsoft's.

      --
      Lalala
    4. Re:Most interesting part by kripkenstein · · Score: 4, Informative

      In the final quarter of 2007, Apple earned $7.1 billion in revenue, compared to Microsoft's $12.5 billion in total revenue. Yes, that's right, Apple brought in more than half as much money as Microsoft, despite Windows owning 98% of the PC market.

      Amusing how RoughlyDrafted sort of misleads with these figures, when he is ranting against other misleading statistics. Based on Wikipedia (disclaimer, but I recall it is basically right from the official reports), Apple had almost half as much revenue as Microsoft in 2006 ($19.3 to $44.2 billion). So yes, as claimed, Apple's revenue is around half that of Microsoft's. But look at net income: $1.73 vs. $12.6 billion - Microsoft makes more than 7 times as much, when measured by net income. So, just as RoughlyDrafted says, partial figures can be misleading.

      In this case, the cause of the discrepancy is quite obvious: Microsoft sells a product with zero marginal value - software. This is basically making money from nothing. Apple, on the other hand, makes actual 'real' products, that cost money to make - Macs, iPods.
    5. Re:Most interesting part by maxume · · Score: 3, Informative

      On 60% of Microsoft's sales. That is not a good thing for Apple. Microsoft can afford to flat out waste billions of dollars and still have higher operating margins than Apple.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    6. Re:Most interesting part by maxume · · Score: 2, Informative

      Software has zero marginal cost. The marginal value is whatever someone is willing to pay you for it.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    7. Re:Most interesting part by alexhmit01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why marginal costs matter. Apple develops OS X and Microsoft develops Windows REGARDLESS of costs. When Apple sells and iPod for $300, they generally spent $200 on parts and sales costs. So while their top line (revenue) goes up by $300, their gross income (revenue - COGS) only goes up $100. While revenue is interesting, a company has to pay all it's expenses out of gross profits. When Microsoft sells a Copy of Vista for $150, the marginal costs (COGS) is pretty close to $0, but for retail is probably $25 or so (packaging, shipping, tracking, etc.). So while their revenue went up $150, gross profits went up $125. Basically, for $300 in revenue, if Microsoft's gross margins are 5/6th, and Apple's are 1/3rd, then Microsoft is doing MUCH better off the same sales.

      Now, investors care about Net Profits, after paying for everything. But the company (internally, non C-level employees) cares about gross profits, because that is the money that is available to pay salaries, etc. However, market analysis of businesses normally looks at revenue, because while it isn't a meaningful number, it's the hardest to fake, and analysts normally assume that companies in the same market have similar margins.

  8. Re:Who are YOU? by crmarvin42 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    DId you visit the site at all? I'll grant you that all of his articles are about apple so to someone predisposed to seeing astrotufers, his site would appear that way. My question is, "So what?" followed by "Why such hostility?" Based upon your vehemence, I get the impression that you have something invested in this debate. As long as you RTFA with a skeptical eye, you can still get some usefull information. The point of the article was't "Zune's suck" but that "Market research numbers are BS that can be, and often are, manipulated by analysts to say what every the analyst wants, and here is how!" As to the last line of your post:

    Keep drinking your sugar water, you cultist freak. While you suck on pop music and network television, the rest of us will be changing the world.
    How exactly are you changing the world by posting vitriolic, knee jerk responses to an article that attempts to bring clarity to a debate that probably won't be significantly effected by your post, or the article you are refering to in the first place? The dueling analysts already know how the data can be manipulated because they are the ones doing the manipulating. Also, what on EARTH does pop music and network television have to do with anything? Neither of them were mentioned in the article, the post on slashdot or any of the responses to the post that I'v read as of the time of my post.
    --
    Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
  9. Ahhh, atribution. by twitter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry guys, the "Pro-Microsoft Press" is as much a straw-man shibboleth as "Main Stream Media's Liberal Bias". Give me a break! How many analysts out there saw the Zunes Microsoft unveiled last fall and actually predicted a success?

    Shibboleth, I'm not sure what you mean by that.

    Straw man, I understand but did not see one in the article. They were careful to attribute the source of pro-Zune/M$ buzz to several very misleading stories by NPD and Steve Ballmer. They then flay those stories to show how they are misleading.

    do we really need a pro-mac blog to provide a multi-part essay on why the Zune is not a success?

    Sure, Zune tanked but that's in part because of bloggers tweezing reality from BS. Microsoft made a second rate device and tried to push it as "the best ever" and likely to succeed because of M$'s usual market might. When it did not sell because everyone knew it was a turd, they made up numbers to say it was selling. Because of the net, Zune has the reputation and sales it deserves.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  10. roughly drafted by zyzko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Can we please have an own category for roughly drafted stories?

    They are sometimes interesting but for the most part I would like to ignore them for being outright false and so strongly biased that they smell like rotten apple for miles.

  11. Market Share Vs. Installed Base by hullabalucination · · Score: 2, Informative

    Old article on Slashdot:

    http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/05/06/05/0548225.s html?tid=3

    Summary: Software Publisher's Association and other groups estimated in 2005 that 16% of all computer users were on Macs.

    * * * *

    All my life, I always wanted to be somebody. Now I see that I should have been more specific.
    --Jane Wagner

  12. hmm by nomadic · · Score: 2, Interesting
    This seems a little weird:

    Charting Gartner's sales numbers for PCs since 1991--including its estimated sales through 2010--provides Apple with an embarrassingly tiny bit of blue next to the towering yellow bar representing the entire worldwide PC market, even when the chart is expanded vertically to flatter Apple.

    However, in the same January 2007 press release, a Gartner analyst also stated that "the PC industry battled for wallet share against other consumer electronics products, such as games consoles and flat panel TVs." In other words, the vast PC market is but part of a larger market: consumer electronics.

    That "however" doesn't just make any sense. In terms of marketshare of computers, Apple is tiny. How does saying that the PC market is a subset of a larger market have any impact on the truthfullness of the previous paragraph? All that means is that the Mac's tiny slice of the market looks even smaller when you incorporate consumer electronics into your definition of the market.
  13. Fun with numbers by sweatyboatman · · Score: 2, Informative

    It seems obvious that he picked the 4th quarter because Apple had a revenue spike.

    Microsoft's Balance Sheet vs. Apple's Balance Sheet

    It would appear that over the last five years Microsoft (profit over 5 years: ~$50B) has consistently made quite a bit more money than Apple (~$3.7B) has (and profits at both companies are growing quickly).

    I guess his point is that Apple's making money and selling stuff. Which is nice for them, but that's what companies are supposed to do.

    --
    It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
    1. Re:Fun with numbers by bockelboy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Come on, looking at the net income over the last 5 years is about as fair as looking at just the 4th quarter (Holiday season probably accounts for 1/2 of Apple's sales).

      Notice that in 2001, we are talking pre-explosion of the iPod. The net income for Apple was -$37m. Last year's net income for Apple was $1989m. Look at the last couple years of income:

      (FY2006) 1,989.00, 1,328.00, 266.00, 69.00, 65.00, (FY2001) -25.00

      After the explosion of the iPod (FY2003), we have roughly exponential growth

      The net income for Microsoft was $7346m in 2001 and $12599m in 2006. Here's the last couple years of income:

      (FY2006) 12,599.00, 12,254.00, 8,168.00, 7,531.00, 5,355.00, (FY2001) 7,346.00

      Slow, but steady growth.

      If you were an investor, who do you put your money in? The company whose income increased about 20% / yr over the last 5 years, or the company whose income has been more than doubling for the last four years? It's two completely different kinds of investment: stable, mature company or hot, rising star?

      (Yes, I have run roughshed over some of the math, but that's the general idea.)

  14. Biased towards Apple? by MaWeiTao · · Score: 3, Insightful
    This is an interesting article and I generally agree with what has been written. However, they make a few statements I'm very skeptical about. I get the impression these guys are biased towards Apple.

    Maintaining a PC costs professional users around five times as much as a Mac.

    It's possible a PC may cost more than a Mac to maintain, but 5 times more? I work in design, so I've been around both Macs and PCs in a professional environment for quite a few years now. In that period of time our Macs have been replaced far more often than PCs. In the 8 years I worked with this one company Macs were replaced 5 times. They started with old Power PCs, moved on to first generation iMacs, hoping to save some money. Those were replaced in about a year by G3s, then came 2 generations of G4s and most recently Intel-based Macs.

    In that same period of time the PCs have been replaced 2 to 3 times. The first upgrade in the same period of time was for IBM machines. Maybe 3 or 4 years later they were replaced by Dells and some of those were replaced by more recent Dell machines. Interestingly there are still a handful of those old Machines around the office being used, not on a regular basis, but they're around. The old Macs are all long gone.

    I suppose on a per machine basis a Mac is cheaper. Macs aren't held onto as long and they aren't really upgraded. Many of the PCs in the office saw at least one OS upgrade, at first from Windows NT to 2000, and then to XP.

    1. Apple extends support for older machines far longer with its operating system software.
    2. Older Macs are faster running a newer version of Mac OS X; older PCs can't even run the latest Windows.
    3. It is easier to support and maintain older Macs; older PCs rapidly become more expensive to maintain.
    4. Older Macs retain a high resale value, older PCs actually have a negative value after the recycling fees.

    In the design industry, which is one of the biggest users of Macs, this is quite common. Design companies replace their machines quite often. They often have no choice, and for exactly the problems that article claims afflict PCs.

    Apple doesn't extent any support for old systems. It doesn't offer any support for any old products. Once an Apple product has been replaced by a new model you're out of luck. Of course, there's a good support community out there for older Apple devices, but Apple can't take credit for that. Anyone running OSX 10.3 or older wont be getting any updates any time soon.

    Older Macs don't run more recent versions of Mac OSX very well. I've experienced this first hand. Even a 3 year old Mac can have difficulty running OSX 10.4 consistently well. A 3 or 4 year old PC can handle XP with no problems at all. Vista is the exception. But then Macs had similar problems when OSX was released.

    And then there are the countless times I've been unable to run applications because they were coded for a more recent version of OSX than I was running. And I don't get backwards compatibility people claim Windows lacks and Macs support.

    Even with the OS9 environment in OSX old applications don't necessarily run, and that's assuming that environment is even installed. In Windows I can even run many DOS-era applications.

    Old Macs are difficult to maintain without the afore mentioned Apple community. Old PCs are exceedingly easy to maintain and similar support communities exist. And why is resale important? I can't think of anyone who's ever sold an old computer. I've seen a lot more interest in old PCs than old Macs which nobody wants if they're 4 or 5 years old. I believe, however, that PCs have a low resale value. PCs are much cheaper than Macs, why spend the money on an old PC when for not too much money a person can buy a new one.

    The article also puts forward a few assumptions they can't really prove. One more absurd one being that most PC users will go out and buy a new PC instead of having the current one services. I'

    1. Re:Biased towards Apple? by amsr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In the design industry, which is one of the biggest users of Macs, this is quite common. Design companies replace their machines quite often. They often have no choice, and for exactly the problems that article claims afflict PCs.

      This is because "design", unlike word processing and spreadsheets and whatever else PC users in business do, requires fast machines and actually gets a higher ROI when you aren't sitting around waiting for files to render. Thus, Macs in design are replaced way more often that PCs. This has nothing to do with the life cycle of Macs, it has to do with the type of work they are used for. Trying to compare the life cycle of Macs in design roles to PCs in accounting is like asking why you have to replace tires in the indy 500 every few laps when your camry at home can go 40k miles with the same tires. PCs in accounting can only go as fast as you can type, Macs in design can only go as fast as they can render/compress video/etc...

      In the consumer space, this is quite different. Many people keep Macs 4 or 5 years and can run the new OS updates and applications because they are essentially just doing email/web/word processing/and syncing their ipod. My father has an old G4 tower that runs OSX 10.4 quite fine, and I think it even shipped with OS9 (it was the last of the G4s to do so). He's not making money off of FCP or Photoshop and he can't run Aperture on it, however. But I am sure it will run Leopard OK because OSX doesn't seem to get a whole lot slower when they rev it, and in many cases gets faster. At some point it will be "unsupported", but if you notice, Apple's most recent hardware "phase out" was machines that didn't ship with built in firewire and a G3 processor. Thats basically every machine back to the original iMac (or pretty close). Faster machines will be faster, but thats true in WinXP land too...

      Another way to look at this is to look at the pace of software innovation by microsoft (or lack thereof). The reason you can run XP (which up until a month ago was the current MS OS) on a 5 year old machine is because XP is a 5 year old OS. Nothing has been added to XP as far as functionality that would demand a faster computer during that time. Likewise, no new graphics subsystems that provide increased functionality, etc... In that same period of time, Apple has revved their OS almost 5 times, each time adding fairly significant new functionality that took advantage of the new era hardware that was available at the time. 2k/XP are essentially the same exact OS, so there is no wonder you can get XP to run on a machine with 128MB of RAM and a 4GB HDD. XP doesn't have Quartz Extreme, CoreImage, CoreAudio, etc.. and applications that take advantage of them to use/abuse faster hardware...

      Apple doesn't extent any support for old systems. It doesn't offer any support for any old products. Once an Apple product has been replaced by a new model you're out of luck. Of course, there's a good support community out there for older Apple devices, but Apple can't take credit for that. Anyone running OSX 10.3 or older wont be getting any updates any time soon.

      This is just not true. First of all, define "support". Applecare supports Apple's hardware (meaning they stock replacement parts for service) for 5 years. Apple's warranty covers the machines for 1 year of out the box, with an available extension to 3 years. If you are a business or large enterprise, you can (as with other enterprise vendors) pay for enterprise support to cover all machines in your organization for a very long time, as well as sign yourself up to be a self servicing customer where your IT dept can order replacement parts directly from Apple, just as any retailer/service center would. Most agreements include guaranteed response time, and parts replacement. I'd say thats pretty normal "support" for a computer company, at least as far as hardware is concerned.

      It is true that with OSX, Apple only patches 1 OS

  15. And ? by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    it refers to the hypocrite nature of Apple, a hardware company positioned as the single largest platform for distributing digital media, who locks down its devices so that only they may sell content for those devices, while promoting the image that they are empowering users with superior software and literally changing the world.


    I'm guessing you mean hypocritical rather than hypocrite, but I'm not sure because I can't see a conflict between those two statements...

    the single largest platform for distributing digital media, who locks down its devices so that only they may sell content for those devices.
      - Well, not quite, you can load media from just about anywhere onto 'those devices' (assuming you mean ipods). They also have their own source (iTMS) that *does* only work with iPods, but hey - that's the same as all their competitors, and why shouldn't they offer that additional service ?

    while promoting the image that they are empowering users with superior software and literally changing the world.
      - The software that every Mac comes with does indeed genuinely add value to the average person's computing experience. The whole "changing the world" thing is more about letting people who *aren't* technical (and here I usually envisage my sister) getting more out of their computers, by employing good design, and paying attention to details that others overlook.

    To give the traditional anecdotal "evidence", my sister flew into florida, found an open WiFi network at the airport, and video-conferenced me (using iChat) here in CA, all with the standard s/w that comes with the machine. Her boyfriend bought her a PC notebook for her birthday last year (in October). When I mentioned (close to Xmas) that that was a shame, because I had been going to buy her a Macbook, she said "oh, no, please get me the Macbook. One of my friends has one, and it's so much easier to use than mine". One Macbook (and somewhat annoyed boyfriend :-) later, and she's video-conferencing me...

    We've even done a 3-way chat (her in Germany, my parents in the UK, and me in CA), which was pretty cool... so I dunno about changing the world in general - that's a nice goal. It certainly changed *her* world, and for the better.

    So, even if both of your premises were true (the first isn't, as explained above), I can't see why Apple should be "hypocrite"; the two statements simply don't have any bearing on each other.

    Simon.
    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  16. Re:Who is redrum? by imroy · · Score: 4, Informative

    "redrum" would appear to be Daniel Eran, the owner of roughlydrafted.com. The people over on digg.com have accused him of spamming Digg with his articles and then using sockpuppet accounts to 'digg' his stories (and only his stories) to get them on the frontpage (or however it works on Digg). When this was found out, he was banned from Digg and he took this personally. In his deluded mind this is a conspiracy against Apple by pro-Microsoft minions. He even has people email Apple asking them to set up a "pro-Apple" competitor to Digg. Daniel Eran is a sycophantic Apple fanboy of the worst kind.

  17. Re:There are three kinds of lies by zoomshorts · · Score: 2, Funny

    Thank you Samuel Clemens :)

  18. Re:Really? by heinousjay · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The insults you made were interesting. Little substance, overly personal, contributed nothing to the point, and made the assumption of personal superiority based on decisions made in the consumer market. Very Apple fan.

    --
    Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
  19. Mixed Metaphore by alexhmit01 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Drinking the Kool-aid refers to a cult whose leader had them drink the poisoned kool-aid and they died. Drinking the Kool-aid means that you believe in the leader on faith, originally from the phrase "don't drink the kool-aid" from the Jonestown masacre.

    Sugar-water is Apple specific. When Jobs lured John Sculley from Pepsi, Jobs asked Sculley, "Do you want to sell sugar water for the rest of your life, or do you want to change the world?"

    Hence the Sugar Water and "Change the World" quotes are Apple quotes, and have nothing to do with the Kool-aid quote you are referring to.

  20. Re:That's what I used to think by that+this+is+not+und · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Back then, many people still hated IBM, because it was the 'big monopoly' computer company that had reigned in power for decades. Plus, IBM introduced OS/2 along with the PS/2 line and Microchannel in such a way as to recapture the market and kill the cloners. Lots of us were very skeptical of IBM for that reason. Similar to the way that lots of people are skeptical of Microsoft (or Apple, or any other 'big company' pushing their product with hype and marketing fluff.)

    Part of the reason OS/2 floundered while Microsoft's OS succeeded is that OEMs didn't want to bundle OS/2, and for good practical reasons. For ever unit sold with OS/2 on it, Compaq had to give a sizeable amount of the sale to IBM in the form of licensing for the software. IBM was a competitor of theirs in the hardware market. By going with Microsoft, they weren't required to hand off money for ever unit sold to a competitor, as Microsoft wasn't involved in the hardware market.

    There are other factors, as well, in the success of Windoze over OS/2. But many of them are never mentioned, it's just 'big evile Microsoft against poor IBM' which is, frankly, a pathetic distortion of history.

  21. Ceci n'est pas une News Article. by malevolentjelly · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Roughly Drafted has had a madman's war with the Zune since its announcement. Look through the archives of this blog, it's like an anti-Microsoft/pro-Apple Mein Kampf. Why do we keep treating this as fact? The Zune is just a (actually fairly-decent) MP3 player... why has it generated such a massive battery of fanatical FUD? The fact that the Zune had so much rambling consumer backlash from Apple-fans will actually help sell them to anti-scenesters.

    Here's a viral/word-of-mouth marketing standpoint-

    There's been a trend lately with teenage boys, high-schoolers, purchasing Zune's instead of iPod's. Why? Because they're more straight-forward functional and masculine, but have the same Scene-feeling. It doesn't take a marketing rocket scientist to figure out that iPod's are sort of effeminate. What Microsoft has is a solid product that will slowly ride into the mainstream on the shoulders of masculine insecurity. All it takes is a couple generations, focus, and patience. The Zune instantly gobbled up a chunk of the market share on pure 'wtf'- I imagine that as long as the Xbox camp is behind this product, they'll gain market share continuously over the next several years and product revisions.

    My standpoint:
    A couple weeks ago, I rode a train for a few hours, watching episodes of The Office on my Zune- I can even watch anime because the screens so clear I can read subtitles. I carry it with me every day and listen to it quite frequently on long walks and runs. The thought of getting an iPod instead never crosses my mind, especially since I make full use of the Zune Pass for subscription music- I couldn't afford it. I purchase all my music in non-DRM MP3 from Bleep.com and rent music from Zune. So, I guess that would make it a Consumer Product, not a satanic cancer.

  22. Re:Am I the only one... by Lars+T. · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is kind of irrelevant to the Zune/iPod debate, but the Mac marketshare is pretty important. If Macs had, say, a 50% marketshare, a lot more software would be developed for OSX (and probably less for Windows). Of course people who actually have a clue know that the Mac marketshare is pretty misleading in that regard, as long as A) the "market" includes PCs used as cash registers and similar things nobody ever buys any software for but what it shipped with, and B) that Mac users tend to buy more software than PC users.
    --

    Lars T.

    To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  23. DECS (Daniel Eran) submitted this story as redrum by MojoStan · · Score: 3, Informative

    "redrum" would appear to be Daniel Eran, the owner of roughlydrafted.com. DECS's Slashdot User page (scroll to bottom) shows that DECS (Daniel Eran) submitted this story. DECS has also sucessfully submitted (got accepted) six other stories that pimped his own site, roughlydrafted.com. It appears that Daniel Eran entered "redrum" in the "Your Name" field of the Slashdot Submission page, but DECS's user page reveals the true submitter of this story.

    The people over on digg.com have accused him of spamming Digg with his articles and then using sockpuppet accounts to 'digg' his stories (and only his stories) to get them on the frontpage (or however it works on Digg). When this was found out, he was banned from Digg and he took this personally. Daniel Eran's shenanigans have actually been covered on Digg:

    Photographic evidence of AlexaW and RoughlyDrafted gaming Digg just to get moron Daniel Eran's articles to the front page. (Where they promptly get buried for being inaccurate.) Several users who ONLY digg AlexaW's submissions, all of whom signed up in the last 3 weeks. Coincidence? Not a chance. This needs to be stopped immediately. More on Daniel Eran:
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    TO START
    PRESS ANY KEY

    Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...