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US No Longer Technology King

An anonymous reader writes to tell us that according to a recent report from the World Economic Forum the US has lost the leading spot for technology innovation. The new reigning champ is now apparently Denmark with other Nordic neighbors Sweden, Finland and Norway all claiming top spots as well. "Countries were judged on technological advancements in general business, the infrastructure available and the extent to which government policy creates a framework necessary for economic development and increased competitiveness."

34 of 815 comments (clear)

  1. Telecomm by dedazo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It appears it's mostly based on that... but then we all know this country sucks there in regards to Europe and Asia. As soon as the FCC stops sucking up to the big telecom corps and opens up the spectrum, the game is on again.

    --
    Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
    1. Re:Telecomm by DCheesi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Keep in mind that all of the countries that are listed above the US are much smaller than the US, with higher population densities. Thus it's easier to reach high broadband penetration rates in those countries.

    2. Re:Telecomm by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wireless can take care of the problem rather neatly if it's allowed to exist. Satellite could take care of the problem, too, if they had more capacity. If the former is being blocked by the FCC (they do sell spectrum to the highest bidder, which is not necessarily in the public interest, and thus a violation of their charter) then it's an artificial limitation, not a natural one. I don't know what's stopping the latter, unless they simply can't afford to loft another bird, or they're just waiting for them to be built. SkyBlue in particular is oversold... And I'm told that Hughes has their own problems as well. DirectTV won't sell me satellite service for some reason, must be oversold as well...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    3. Re:Telecomm by rucs_hack · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not wanting to be nasty or anything, but America is going through a bit of a religious experience at the moment, with people rejecting science by the million.

      That cannot happen and the US retain their technological advantage.

      Point of interest, America was having similer problems pre Sputnik, and when it flew overhead Congress ordered that Science be given a priority in the classroom, and that evolution be taught everywhere. The result? America's rise to technological dominance in the information age.

      Now its happening all over again.

      You have to ask yourselves, what will the next Sputnik be?

    4. Re:Telecomm by dgatwood · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What's interesting is not the mean, but rather the standard deviation. The U.S. has a large concentration along the coast, but a third of the population is rural. That's very unusual. Most countries with low population density tend to have very high density along the coast and almost nobody anywhere else. Sweden, for example, has 84% of its population spread over only 1.4% of its land area. The U.S. has 80% of its people in urban areas, so a lower percentage, and spread across a whopping 3%. Thus, assuming the definitions of urban vs. rural are similar between those two statistics (I'm not certain), the urban areas are only about half as dense, and the rural areas are roughly 25% more populous.

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    5. Re:Telecomm by btellier · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not wanting to be nasty or anything, but America is going through a bit of a religious experience at the moment, with people rejecting science by the million.

      Really? Got any facts to back that up?

      According to the American Religious Identification Survey "The proportion of the [American] population that can be classified as Christian has declined from 86% in 1990 to 77% in 2001" and the number of people who believe in no religion AT ALL doubled from 1990 to 2001.

      Sorry, homeboy. You're wrong.

    6. Re:Telecomm by HolyCrapSCOsux · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The issue isn't about America finding religion as it is about the folks with the loudest voice (deepest pockets) in the government decision making process has not been interested in technology.

      --
      0xB315AA8D852DCD3F3DCA578FD2E0BF88
    7. Re:Telecomm by ScrewMaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The GP is correct. Military forces have always been able to command the lion's share of research funds (that's the case with any major power that would like to remain a major power.) That's the case in peacetime, and when there's a conflict on, particularly when dealing with an enemy at or near technological parity, the military usually demands (and gets!) even more funding.

      However, our military is one of the comparative few that has regularly spun off non-sensitive research into commercial applications. The old BMDO (Ballistic Missile Defense Organization) group (they've since changed their name) was primarily charged with seeding commercial ventures with government-funded research results. Worked rather well over the past couple decades.

      So yes, if all that money simply goes into bigger and better weapons it could be considered a waste from a civilian perspective. But when it is shared and used to improve the private sector, it is anything but.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    8. Re:Telecomm by rucs_hack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the problem is that if you reject evolution and the means by which it is verified, you also reject the very scientific methods required to be a good scientist.

      And yes, it is required for computer science. Evolutionary algorithms derived from the natural world are a major part of the field, with application to everything from DNA research

      Corne, D. Meade, A. Sibly, R. 'Evolving core promoter signal motifs', Proceedings of the 2001 Congress on Evolutionary Computation, vol. 2, 1162-1169, 2001

      to satellite placement:
      Williams, Edwin, William Crossley and Thomas Lang, 'Average and maximum revisit time trade studies for satellite constellations using a multiobjective genetic algorithm', Journal of the Astronautical Sciences, 49, 3, 385-400 2001

      No acceptance of evolution, no science...

    9. Re:Telecomm by unapersson · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "For some reason, people have gotten the idea in their head that there's some kind of huge Christian uprising or takeover happening in the US, and it's simply not there at all. Sorry. Given that you don't bother to support your initial point, I'm going to just ignore the rest of the post. Hope you don't mind."

      Well if that shrinking minority of Christians just happens to be running the country, driving policy (banning gay marriage?) then people may well get that impression. Maybe less a growth in numbers and more a growth in power and influence. I suspect as the number of practising Christians continues to drop that desire to grab power and influence will only increase as an attempt to stop the slide.

    10. Re:Telecomm by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      jehovah's witnesses are so nice (not)

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2123546.stm


      To remind you of your original point:

      You [the United States, presumably-- I'm not religious, nor do I export anything] are currently exporting extreme religions (yup, that's what a lot of uk people think of the Johovahs witnesses that come calling, nut jobs to be avoided at all costs),

      To support your point that the US is exporting extreme religions, you link to an article about a church elder who abused a kid. How does that show extreme religions being exported in any way, shape or form? In what way does it prove that "uk people" are avoiding Jehovah's Witnesses? Hell, how do you even define what "extreme religions" are? How does it show anything other than, "hey one guy did one bad thing!"

      How about finding a demographic study that shows the religion gaining influence over time, or perhaps an opinion poll from UK citizens about their acceptance of Jehovah's Witnesses? Those might actually be more relevant to your initial point than this 1-page newspaper article you Googled.

      looking for the ark....

      http://www.noahsarksearch.com/


      There's nothing on that website about funding. For all I know the entire thing is a single guy with a lot of free time, and given the quality of the website that seems a good guess.

      Then again, let's assume it is being funded by someone... so what? Unless you prove that the amount of funding goes towards finding Noah's Ark is increasing over time, this does nothing to support the original point.

      (Or perhaps you think it should be illegal to fund searches for mythical objects? I, and a lot of other Americans, happen to believe in freedom. If someone wants to spent money to find the flying spaghetti monster, who am I to stop them? They can do what they want.)

      the links between americans extreme religions and isreal/funding of end time stuff

      http://www.wluml.org/english/newsfulltxt.shtml?cmd %5B157%5D=x-157-537000


      This link goes to a book review. I haven't read the book. If anybody reading this has, please comment on it.

      (I will say that President Bush is not a "fervent Christian fundamentalist." If would be interesting to see what definition of "fundamentalist" includes President Bush.)

      problems with science in the US classroom

      http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleUR L&_udi=B6WSN-4J79KGF-4&_user=10&_coverDate=02%2F10 %2F2006&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c& _acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid= 10&md5=f91bf7d1e0b2f400ab976e4834c79692


      "Not available" error.

      That enough?

      Not for me. And I'm not even Christian-- I just have a pretty well-developed BS filter.

    11. Re:Telecomm by gstoddart · · Score: 4, Insightful

      For some reason, people have gotten the idea in their head that there's some kind of huge Christian uprising or takeover happening in the US, and it's simply not there at all.

      Well, there may not be an actual upswing in the amount of people ... but there sure as hell seems to be a huge rise in the relative influence of religious conservatives in the US.

      Between the ongoing "we can teach creationism as if it's valid science", banning all forms of science which run afoul of the religious right, and and administration which seems to believe that God is personally on their side ... to the rest of us, it sure as fsck looks like religion is going through a huge revival. Certainly, the religious right gets to say all sorts of hateful, vile crap, and the mainstream media doesn't view them as cooks. It views them as having an informed position.

      However, maybe the rest of the USA are just so damned busy watching American Idol and following everything which is happening with Brittney Spears they're just too damned politically apathetic to stop the bullshit which seems to become policy. Either way, in terms of the way the US is projecting themselves nowadays, there might as well have been an uprising or a takeover or something.

      Cheers
      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    12. Re:Telecomm by vux984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That isn't insightful. Its an irrelevant statistic. Average population density as it correlates to broadband availability is meaningless if there is enough empty land to skew the statistics.

      Canada, for example, has a population density of 3.2 on that chart. Yet it too has excellent broadband penetration (markedly superior to the united states) because despite having an average of 3.2 people per square kilometer, the vast majority of people live in dense cities along the southern border, while vast amounts of geography range from virtually to completely uninhabited.

      Several of the nordic countries are similarly laid out. With dense urban populations, and large virtually unpopulated areas where its mountainous, glacial, or arctic tundra.

      The GP's post which indicated that these countries had a higher population density than the US is of course patently false, however, he had the right idea. Broadband becomes viable as the population density reaches a threshold in the regions where the population density reaches that threshold. In a these Nordic countries (and Canada), nearly the entire population lives in regions where the population is "dense enough". While in regions where the population isn't that dense, there often isn't any population at all.

      Thus despite Canada's excellent broadband availability to like 95% of its people, if you threw a dart at a map of canada, you'd more than likely hit a spot where there there wasn't access. Indeed, this is because you'd more than likely hit a spot where there wasn't any PEOPLE.

      In the US, however, there are huge numbers of people living in regions that simply aren't that dense. You throw a dart at a map of the US and odds are there will be people living under it, but probably not enough of them to make broadband viable.

      In other words, population density simply indicates the total number of people divided by the total amount of space, and says nothing about where they actually live. If you took everyone in the states and relocated them all to Texas the US would have the exact same population density it has now, but getting everybody broadband access would be comparatively trivial.

      cheers,

    13. Re:Telecomm by paeanblack · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Population density doesn't matter. The Gini coefficient of the population distribution does.

      Consider US vs Canada http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/images/content /94116main_usa_nightm.jpg

      Canada has a much lower population density, but it's far cheaper to lay fiber to 95% of the Canadian population than to 95% of the American population, because the average distance between two random Canadians is far less the average distance between two Americans.

      Countries like the US/Britain/France/Germany, which are more evenly populated will simply require much more fiber/area for a given broadband penetration than countries like Canada/Australia/Brazil, which have huge clumps of people and vast areas of sparse population.

    14. Re:Telecomm by hxnwix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Gay marriage has always been banned. It's only recently that it's legal anywhere in the world. Perhaps. However, state constitutional amendments specifically banning gay marriage are new to me. What strikes me and I think most other progressives about these amendments is that they seem to generate the most controversy only every two years.

      America is facing many urgent problems from runaway deficit spending to the continual erosion of federal agency responsiveness and even respect for fundamental human rights. Yet certain politicians seem obsessed with gay marriage during election season - the very time when we need to judge them on their positions and history regarding real issues that actually affect America.

      In summary, I worry that Americans are extremely susceptible to distraction by highly irrelevant issues and that exploitation of this weakness gravely impacts the quality of their government. I think that we are seeing the results of this poor governance right now in lost jobs and expertise.
    15. Re:Telecomm by Trifthen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So? Forget the US in general, then. I'd like to see a study on dense populated areas alone so we can finally put this tired argument to rest. Why not compare the biggest and densest areas of the US to entire countries in the EU? I'm almost certain we'd still lose. Why not pit Chicago, or New York, or San Francisco against Sweeden, or Norway, or Japan? We'd get obliterated. South Korea, a war torn wasteland in the not too distant past, is handing us our asses. Is there even one city in the US that cracks the top ten? Just one?

      Forget the damn rural areas already. It's a nice excuse, but our infrastructure is still slapdash, crawling with shoddy and inconsistent speeds, and woefully behind, even in the largest metropolitan areas.

      --
      Read: Rabbit Rue - Free serial nove
  2. Well, that's not really unexpected by vivaoporto · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Since the eighties, when Japan began to take over U.S. role on technology, and U.S. started to focus more on services, this was something predictable. Sometimes people forget that there is no way to be prosper doing each others laundry

  3. What else do you expect? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When a society decides that corporations are priviledged citizens, corporations decide that profit and Tax Evasion matter more than Education, how can the country NOT fall behind in technology?

    --
    SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    1. Re:What else do you expect? by paitre · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It takes decades for the mistakes and policy changes made 20 and 25 years ago to really start to show, particularly when we're discussing education - you have to essentially flush the system.

      So, no - it's only been in the last 15-20 years that we've -really- seen a lot of corporate abuse of their position (not that it didn't happen earlier, but it didn't necessarily happen at the same scale), and the predictable, to some, results. /shrug.

    2. Re:What else do you expect? by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      So let me get this straight. You're blaming failed State controlled education on corporations? Hmm, makes sense to me.

      Actually, I'm blaming failing state controled services IN ALL ARENAS on corporations not paying for the services they use. Education of workers should be a primary value of any long range thinking company that needs skilled workers- yet for the past 20 years we've had a tax revolt removing money from the schools and making sure corporations pay a significantly lower percentage than they did in the 1950s. Education is just the most visible. Crime is second. But as a state worker working for Oregon Department of Transportation- I have to say roads and shipping are not far behind.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
  4. Re:Blame Canada! by ScrewMaster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    In some respects that's not too far from the truth, but at the rate we're losing those freedoms I figure they'll eventually stop hating us.

    --
    The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
  5. Validity of the criteria? by redelm · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I see lots of these "Top 10" type lists, and I always chuckle: The list makers apply whatever criteria they think makes for a good society, then think up a clever name for what those criteria might represent.

    One small think they left off -- marginal tax rates. High rates like Sweden positively drive innovators away.

    1. Re:Validity of the criteria? by AK+Marc · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The taxes on a corporation are paid by the corporation. They they only pay taxes if they make a profit, so a corporation that is losing money doesn't pay income taxes. If they make a profit, they pay a portion of it to the government. Whatever makes up the revenue is what makes the money that the taxes are paid from. But, what does that matter? If you want to be stupid and pedantic about it, I don't pay any taxes at all. The company I work for pays me money that I pay to the government, so my company pays all my taxes. So personal income tax on me is dumb because my personal income tax is paid by my company. It's a circular argument that you aren't giving any reason why your vision of who pays is more correct, aside from your rhetorical games that can go both ways.

  6. Agreed. by burning-toast · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If anybody doubts that we have lost our edge in the technology arena let me ask you one question:

    Name one complete sub-assembly inside of your computer which had the majority of the R&D and Fabrication done in the USA.

    Of that sub-assembly (assuming you have named one), which components are utilizing NEW technology developed here in the USA.

    I would like to know why the USA (given a dedicated effort) could not take back the crown of technology power house without doing so by stifling our competition over seas.

    There has to be enough room in the future technology development for us to foster and train our citizens to come up with new concepts which will not rely on foreign brains, labor, or money to develop, market, and sell.

  7. Priorities by HomelessInLaJolla · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A deterioration of the political and regulatory environment in the US prompted the fall Our leaders aren't allowing American scientists to innovate. If it doesn't fit into a corporate ledger, or if the return on a research investment can't be forecast in terms of dollars, then the venture capitalists have little or no interest in it. Scientists, increasingly, are finding themselves denied staffing and funding requests because they're not salesmen. Especially over the last ten years I've seen a trend where MBAs, accountants, marketers, and salesmen are bidding for the highest salaries while the scientists and innovators are seen almost as a necessary evil for doing business.

    Until the US fixes its priorities we're going to continue to fall. Perhaps the US can keep buying talent from other nations, with H1-B visas, but unless the scientists are given fruitful environments they simply aren't going to come up with anything new or revolutionary. What encouragement do the nation's thinkers have to keep improving their ideas when the laurels and rewards are going only to the people who manage them like a column of assets? It's plain demoralizing to continually refine a product for a year only to see executive support lost and funding slashed. Graduate students and post-docs, while they provide a significant source of intellectual labor, cannot compete with happy and eager experienced scientists in other parts of the world.

    Extreme levels of government regulation, oversight, interaction, and micromanaging are probably a significant contributor to the death of American technological innovation as well.
    --
    the NPG electrode was replaced with carbon blac
  8. Metric critique #1 by Glowing+Fish · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The first thing I would critique about this (amongst many others) is that it is a ranked list. At least in the BBC summary, it doesn't describe the objective rankings of the countries.

    For example, if it was on a 100 point scale, the US could have slipped from, say, 99.9 to 99.8, and that would have been enough to slip from first to seventh. Or maybe the objective score would have been a much larger slide. Maybe the US objectively climbed, but just not at the same rate as the other countries. Being that all ten of the top countries have the same mature technological apparatus, I am imagining that whatever shuffling took place in the ratings was rather minor. The actual differences between technology adaption between the US and Iceland might be almost indistinguishable.

    --
    Hopefully I didn't put any [] around my words.
  9. Whatever... by ivan256 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Isn't it a global marketplace now? Who cares what 'your country' is doing. Just be the best you can be in your field and you'll be fine. Life will go on even if you can't wave a big flag saying your country is better than somebody else's. Be proud of what *you* can do.

  10. Education, immigration? by nermaljcat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Like software, Education and Immigration should be free and open. Providing innovation a fertile breeding ground.

    I think that the cost of Education in the US has a big impact on this too. Sadly, a college degree has become a status symbol in the US for "upper class" citizens. A lot of people can't afford a student loan that is sometimes more than their mortgage!

    A lot of European countries offer good incentives for people to study, including paying a state allowance for university students.

    I'm not up to date on European immigration policy, but I'm sure it would be much more relaxed than the US when it comes to skilled labor. I couldn't imagine it being any more tighter.

    Well, that's my 2 cents worth anyways...

  11. Re:broadband by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Dark fiber isn't useful for pushing out broadband. The dark fiber is just extra fiber that was run alongside lit fiber (because the incremental cost is very low) when they were installing the backbones. If the backbone owners find that they need more bandwidth, they'll use that dark fiber. There's no lack of bandwidth on the backbones; it's with the "last mile" connections to homes and businesses, which requires some type of new infrastructure to be installed.

  12. Re:I have to ask... by Catbeller · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'What country has landed on the moon?'
    38 years ago.

    'What country invented the transistor, and later the microchip?'
    Over 50 years ago.

    'What country harnessed electricity, and set up the first electric lights?'
    You'd be surprised. But that was over 120 years ago.

    'What country set up the first assembly line, and mass produced the automobile?'
    Again, 100 years ago.

    'What country split the atom?'
    63 years ago.

    Now.
    Which of the wealthy industrialized countries has the highest percentage of poor?
    Which has least progressive taxation, ie rich pay higher percentage, indeed, pay taxes at all.
    Which has lowest average wages.
    Which has declining participation in the wealth generated by labor.
    Which has worst ratio superrich to general population.
    Which has giant trade imbalance.
    Which has largest debt.
    Which has biggest tax breaks for wealthiest people.
    Which has collapsing real estate market.
    Which has no manufacturing capacity for its own markets.
    Which has worst schools.
    Which has largest percentage of permanent poor.
    Which has poorest representation of science in government.
    Which has most money wasted on military and spy networks.
    Which has religious belief that markets cure anything.
    Which lost a major city and told its people to go to hell for being poor and stupid.
    Which has the highest per capita spending on health care with the worst per capita coverage. Add: Which has businesses taking 30 percent or more of the health care expenditures as admin costs and profit.
    Which has worst sex education, teen pregnancy rate and STD infection rate.
    Which has worst newborn death rate.
    Which has collapsing science funding.
    Which has had science infiltrated by the operatives of a political party.
    Which has a population so uneducated and unimaginative that they only finished 1/4 of a space station and forgot to build a shuttle to get to it. And can't understand why that would matter.
    Which economy is about to explode, sinking belly up?
    Which nation is exceedingly wealthy and well educated because they nationalized their oil fields, keeping all the profits? That would be Norway.
    Which countries tax high, have excellent labor representation in business decisions, has excellent health care at reasonable cost, low poverty rates, lowest teen birth rates and STD infection rates, and now lead the world in tech development? Why, the Netherlands, Sweden, Norway and all the other countries mentioned.

    Apparently the people of a nation taking control of their futures through their representative governments do better than those who abdicate their control to be ruled by corporate business. Who would have thought it.

  13. US Universities by PAKnightPA · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One thing i think that has been overlooked in this discussion is the number of amazing institutions. If you compare the number of elite research institutions in the United States to anywhere else the US does extremely well. While this is certainly only one factor in a nations "technology ranking" the amount of research these universities generate and the highly educated people they churn out is undeniable a huge positive force for the US.

  14. Technology? What about GTA high scores? by mnemotronic · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yea, all the whiney stuff about losing our tech edge... really man, get over it. How about something that really counts, like high scores on Grand Theft Auto? We rule dude. When it comes to whacking cops and hos and stealin stuff, we are like so totally NUMBER ONE! We are the numero uno video game nation! The USA is also top of the heap in pizza, and drinks with cool names like "cocaine", and shopping malls. And stuff like SUVs and MP3 players. You Euro-smack talkers ever look and see where your iPod comes from? Silicone valley usa, dude. And where do you think Star Wars came from? France? Sheesh. They're not even allowed to use cameras anymore. Where else can you see American Idle or a Billy Ray Cirrhosis show? Huh? Not London hon. No way. Cause we are just too bitchin.

    --
    The Russians have won. They have made the world a cesspool of distrust, greed, fear and hate.
  15. Where do you live, btellier? by Mariner28 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If you're from New York, I can understand how you can somehow ignore the rise of the Christian Right in American politics ever since the Reagan era. You need to get out and see the "Heartland" of the country. Try Dallas, or Oklahoma City, or Baton Rouge, or Jackson. How about that Crystal Cathedral in California?

    We now have a President who is "Born Again", and recognizes Christ as his personal saviour. His old Attorney General, John Ashcroft, a devout Assemblies of God member, used to anoint himself with oil. We have many members of Congress, both in the Senate and the House, who are ordained ministers in their churches. Some are LDS Bishops. I would venture to say that the percentage of devout Christians holding office in various levels of government in the US exceeds that of the general population. Which oath do they hold to? Their duty to country, or to a church?

    You've got people who firmly believe that the US Constitution states that the USA is a Christian nation. I've got in-laws who used to believe that I was damned to Hell because I was raised Catholic and not a member of the Church of Christ.

    We have a member of the Texas House who firmly believes that the Earth is the center of the Universe, and that we never landed a man on the moon, and that satellites are held in orbit by magnetism, not gravity - because Newton's Laws are wrong and he can prove it. http://www.fixedearth.com/geosynchronous_sa.htm (I had to post that link because it's a hoot. His proof is that a LaGrange point is where gravity stops because it's where it balances out. Give the man a Nobel!)

    We had an Army General (2 star?) who fervently believed we would win in Iraq because his God is greater than their God, Allah. Someone forgot to tell him they're one and the same. Jehovah, too.

    These are the people who've been running this nation for the last dozen years or so. Their's are the people who backed a "Crusade" in the Middle East, thinking we'd set them "free".

    Oh. And that CUNY study? Does it take into account that many black Southern Baptists are becoming Muslims? And the biggest immigrant groups in the US today are Hispanic Catholics (and Protestants) and Muslims from the Middle East and SE Asia?

    Just because the percentage of people identifying themselves as Christians has gone down (how accurate is that study) does not mean that the number of people who identify themselves as religious has gone down. Or that the percentage who identify themselves as Born Again has gone down.

    I don't need to cite references. All you need to do is get out of your ivory tower (sorry, that actually sounds religious!) and look around. Wake up. You're missing an entire country out there!

    --
    "A little misunderstanding? Galileo and the Pope had a little misunderstanding."
  16. Re: Were you there? by kripkenstein · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One more step down the ladder - the argument that "because there were Christians, there must have been a Chirst." I point you to Scientology. Must there have been a Xenu? I point you to Mormonism. Must there have been golden tablets, an angel named Moroni?

    Whoa, whoa. You were doing ok until here, where you slip up. It is perfectly reasonable to assume, given the existence of early Buddhists, that there was a Buddha. Was he in fact in possession of all of the traits they attributed to him? Probably not, from a skeptical outlook - most likely, he was just a very smart, insightful and charismatic individual. Likewise Jesus. The scant evidence does not prove he exists, but the simplest explanation is that such a person - not necessarily a divine one - did, in fact, exist. Don't mix up the existence of the supernatural Christ with a human Jesus. Don't compare the existence of the human Jesus to the existence of Xenu, these are completely different issues.

    Scientology - there was a Ron L. Hubbard. Mormonism - there was a Joseph Smith. Religious movements nearly always start with a powerful leader figure. As skeptics, we would view those people as ('merely') exceptional human beings, not divine or supernatural as the adherents of those faiths would. But let's not deny the likely existence of the individual itself.