An iPod For Every Kid In Michigan

mikesd81 writes "Over at C|Net there is an article about Michigan spending $38 million to distribute an iPod to every kid, for learning purposes. From the article: 'On Thursday, House Democrats delivered a spending bill that includes the idea of putting $38 million worth of public funds toward outfitting every student with a digital music player.' The plan included measures to tax soda and satellite TV services to pay for it, among other things, to raise funds. If you recall, Duke University tried something like this with mixed results. How financially strained will Michigan residents feel about paying higher taxes to buy someone else's kid an iPod?"

Comments

really?

[sam.thorogood]

Please allow me to contribute the obligatory "yes, because blackboards and chalk have clearly failed us" response.

Re:really?

[fishthegeek]

Observationally, as a teacher I would like to suggest that the kids could try these revolutionary ideas instead:

Take notes.
Read their textbooks.
Email the teacher (my kids do this one a lot)
Actually pay attention.

I see this as giving the kids a device they won't use for the purpose intended (for the most part anyway), and as just another silly idea from the Ivory Tower folks. This won't save one ream of paper IMHO. Schools burn through paper like you wouldn't believe.

Re:really?

[MidnightBrewer]

As a teacher, I completely believe you. I also agree that I would sooner see this as a pay raise for me than spent on an iPod that will get lost, stolen, or broken within six months and never hold even one lecture related to class. The irony of this kind of idea is that they'll give these kids the iPods and completely fail to give the schools the resources to record and publish anything that could go on the iPods. Do the schools also get recording equipment? Does anybody at the school know how to make a website, or an RSS feed?

The only thing the kids are going to learn is that the government really does waste their parents' tax money on cool stuff.

Re:really?

[EvanED]

Well, actually, they have. (Okay, it's a whiteboard, but you get the idea.)

You couldn't outfit every classroom with this for that money yet though.

But that's really a strawman anyway. It's not an either-or situation: distribute iPods or not have anything the kids can take home. One of my H.S. teachers tape recorded his lectures on cassette tape. You could record the lectures and put them online to download and let kids listen to it on their computers at home, or on their own iPods. If someone is really financially disadvantaged enough that this isn't an option, the school could have some players that you could check out from the library.

There are plenty of ways to achieve about the same effect without being fiscally stupid.

Re:really?

[exp(pi*sqrt(163))]

> nobody's yet figured out a way to make 30 copies and then take the blackboards home with them

Mmmm...I'm guessing you never went to school so you don't know how it works.

Re:really?

[FLEB]

I believe this is being done for two reasons, shock value "look at what Michigan has done"

Yeah, but I think that shock and sentiment is working the wrong way. Given the general state of the State, as well as the schools, and the relative uselessness (especially given costs) of iPods in education, this just comes off as mind-blowingly idiotic more than anything forward-thinking, especially when the gov't has been putting forth cuts and finagling tax hikes claiming poverty.

I could even see buying eBooks or something like that-- at least those have more educational use than a trumped-up portable drive.

"Look what Michigan has done... dumped a whole bunch of money from a struggling economy into ooh-shiny electronics." Now I (a Michigan resident) get to be thought of either as part of the people who thought "iPods" and "education" were a natural combo, or the people who apparently can be cowed and placated by throwing shiny things at them.

Re:really?

[phlegmofdiscontent]

I realize you're being facetious, but the obligatory response is bullshit. I learned quite well with old-fashioned books and blackboards and managed to get a degree in Physics years before iPods were ever invented. Millions of people have done just as well. It's not lack of iPods that are preventing kids from learning, it's something else (parents, poor teachers, lack of funding, shitty educational standards, take your pick).

Re:really?

[TapeCutter]

C'mon, even Newton used an apple. :)

Umm..

[Anonymous Coward]

Why not spend the money on text books or library books or classrooms or teachers? Or all four?

Re:Umm..

[hey!]

Well, the idea is that they'll be used kind of like text books, I guess.

WRT to teachers, of course that's the best and surest way to improve education. Lower class size. If class size wasn't important than the elite in this country wouldn't be sending their kids to prep schools where classes are four or five students sitting around a table with a teacher.

While increasing the number of qualified teaches is almost a surefire way of improving education, it's also the most expensive. Since it's the most expensive thing you deal with, often money is well spent just to improve the effectiveness of our use of teacher time. This means hiring aides to handle non-teaching chores, specialists in math and reading and so forth.

My attitude toward something like this is like my attitude towards an Iraq troop surge: the idea itself is neither nor good nor bad, it depends on whether you have a credible plan to use them. I'm not saying that the iPod idea is a good one, but it is not necessarily bad. Just because iPods are a lot of fun doesn't mean they can't be used as serious educational tools. If money is tight, then creative ideas for marginal improvements are actually more worth looking at. If we were swimming in dough, the answer to the best use of our dough would be simple: reduce class sizes.

I have a feeling that the idea will go down in flames, because the public instinct is exactly the opposite. When we're flush, we might consider something like this. When money is tight, we obsess about things we can't afford.

Re:Umm..

[linkedlinked]

HAH! Why would they spend money on text books?
At my (michigan) high school, we couldn't afford *PAPER* to stock the classrooms. If kids needed paper or a pencil at any time during the day, we were told with straight faces that we should go out in the hall and beg from friends.
Meanwhile, across the road, we approved a multi-million dollar rennovation to our football stadium (yes, "stadium") which was already much nicer than most of the ones in the area; two of the best-liked teachers in the school (who were also the newest) got fired to help fund that. And we had a $300,000 camera surveillance system which, when four guys broke into my friends car and lit it on fire, did NO good identifying them (and most of the cameras were in the parking lot, for that matter). Between 6th grade and 12th grade, the district-wide price of a school lunch hiked from $1.75 to over $3.00, and I'm confident that the volume of the lunch went down over that period.

I graduated last spring.

I'm not at all surprised to hear that we're giving kids iPods instead of text books.

Re:Umm..

[Achromatic1978]

Ever seen Mr Holland's Opus?

Some choice quotes:

• "I care about these kids just as much as you do. And if I'm forced to choose between Mozart and reading and writing and long division, I choose long division." "Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren't going to have anything to read or write about."
• [on the football coach lamenting to the just-sacked music teacher that he'd be the next to go] "The day they cut the football budget in this state, that will be the end of Western Civilization as we know it!"

Who will monitor the usage?

[ShadowFalls]

It is hard to see how they could keep these iPods from being used for purposes other than educational. Who pays for stolen ones or broken ones? Some parents can't afford one to give to their kids on their own, to replace one would be atrocious. In the end, this is just more politicians wasting time on things that do not really matter instead of focusing on the things that do.

This is a horrible idea.

[forkazoo]

Or, at least, it is a horrible idea unless I can manage to be declared eligible.

Seriously, how about spending the millions of dollars on teachers? I just can't see any real requirement for a DAP for educational purposes. Want the students to be able to listen to lectures as home? Put MP3's on the school website and let students listen to them at the computer or put them on their own DAP. Need students to be able to listen to audio on their own while in class? 30 million dollars buys a lot of blank CD-R's, and CD players are a hell of a lot less expensive than iPods.

30 million dollars also buys a hell of a lot of teacher bonuses. IMNSHO, Investing in teachers will have more of a benefit than whatever hair brained scheme they have cooked up for the iPods.

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[PhoenixAtlantios]

It's sad that I managed to decipher IMNSHO without pausing to process it, even though I've never seen it before. The Internet has corrupted me =(

I have to agree with the idea of investing money in teachers instead of the students though. Plans to give students free iPods and PSPs just seem to be extremely short sighted, as when given the choice between working and playing games/music I'm fairly sure I know which one most teenagers would choose. Giving the teachers laptops, maybe giving them Broadband for free at home, etc. would likely have a more beneficial effect on learning.

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[suv4x4]

This is a horrible idea. Seriously, how about spending the millions of dollars on teachers?

You could spend the money on teachers, but will this give your kids THE BEST MUSIC PLAYER in the world? I don't think so.
Everyone could come up with the idea of giving the teachers money. But we have to DARE to be DIFFERENT. This is what distinguishes a follower from a leader. Are you a follower or a leader?

So, I think it's an INCREDIBLE IDEA. It's the BEST. IDEA. IN THE WORLD. EVER.

And that's nothing, EVERY KID IN AMERICA should have an iPod. Hell, every kid in the world should have one. Why spend all this money on inventing and producing OLPC, when iPod is here. Does OLPC even have headphones? Does it have a clickwheel? NO, it has a keyboard. Keyboards ARE BORING.

I know it, you know it, and the children know it: THIS is what really iPod is: raising the IQ of the children!

- Steve J.

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[canUbeleiveIT]

I have to agree with the idea of investing money in teachers instead of the students though.

I am so tired of hearing about how underpaid teachers are. It's like a mantra that people just repeat and repeat without giving a whole lot of thought to. While it holds true for private schools, public school teachers have it pretty good.

Teachers' salaries in Michigan are among the highest in the nation at an average $54,474/year. And that's with an average education just slightly higher than a B.A.. In my area the state university's Teacher's College has the lowest average SAT & GPA of all of the programs in the school.

In addition, they only work 9 months out of the year and have every weekend, holiday and summer off. If a teacher chooses to work the entire year (teaching summer school), like most of us, he/she would make $72K. Add the excellent bennies that most public school employees have and I have a hard time shedding too many tears for them.

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[Nasarius]

It's sad that I managed to decipher IMNSHO without pausing to process it, even though I've never seen it before. The Internet has corrupted me =(

You think that's bad? In the past couple weeks, I instantly deciphered GMAFB and GAS (in the context of guitar/bass players). I think I need a break.

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[rbannon]

I work in a state funded school where 65% (contact hours) of the teaching is done by very low paid part-timers. To give you an idea of how low paid, a typical course is $1,500 (maximum $2,250) for a four month semester. These teachers are not given any benefits and can be fired at any time. Salaries at my school are only reported for full-timers, so wages may seem high. Yes, I know teachers who are making more than $100,000! Yikes, that hurts, especially when my take home pay after 20 years is less than $400/week (I'm tenured and full time). I am also highly qualified, with an MS (engineering) from an Ivy League school.

So please stop looking at what your government wants to tell you about teacher wages --- they're only reporting full-timers!

-rB

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[Lumpy]

Hi Im senator lumpy and I am looking for support for the "give america grilles bill S158774-2". Children all over are forced to go out in public without a grille in their mouth causing ridicule and low self esteem. Giving every child in america a grille will help their education.

Wont you think of the children? Call your Senators and Represenatives and say you support S158774-2.

BTW: ignore the minor text at the back that says the bill also invokes martial law in the USA.

Thank you and God bless america!

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[eunos94]

Having several public school teachers in my family and having taught myself for awhile, I can tell you first hand, your analysis of their economic situation is WAY off base. While teachers receive a decent salary, for many it is just that, a salary. They don't get paid for the countless hours they spend outside of school getting their work done.

You can't plan and organize a class during the time your teaching, you have to do it at home. And holidays? Please. Most of those days are spent fulfilling silly requirements for the state for continuing education seminars. Or grading 150 essays. Or going to the store to buy the materials your school district is too poor to pay for. Or buy supplies for kids whose parents don't have jobs and there's no support network to buy the kids backpacks or pencils. Never mind the afterschool meetings, the evenings calls with parents, the weekends spent in the school preparing for the next week...the list goes on.

Nevermind the fact that Michigan's public school teachers are probably some of the highest paid because of basically Oakland County. IIRC, Oakland county is in the top 5 richest counties in the country. There's a ton of money being tossed around there and honestly, it has some of the best schools in the state. Strangely, money seems to be buying a better education.

No one's asking public school teachers to be remunerated like brain surgeons, but at least create some incentives to excel at what you do. Seems like the harder you work in public schools, the more likely you are to get the jobs that there's just no pay for.

Re:This is a horrible idea.

[DavidTC]

I like how people, when talking about how much teachers work, love to mention the fact they're only working 9 months a year. And then add in 'and holidays'. Um, no, not 'and holidays'. Teachers have to work 190 days or so, which barely fits in 9 months without holidays. School years are actually 10 months, with a month of holidays spaced in there.

So your calculations about summer school are entirely off. If the 10 month year paid 54 thousand, then summer school would be maybe another 11 thousand, so we're talking about 65 thousand there. And this completely ignores the fact that teachers can't just 'decide' to teach summer school. Maybe one out of ten teachers is wanted for summer school. And, no, they can't run out and get a job elsewhere, because that's exactly the wrong time of year to be looking for jobs. They're competing with high school students.

And they completely ignores the fact they do without a lunch hour. It's more a lunch 20 minutes, and lower grade teachers eat with their class, so it's not a break at all.

'Traditional' 9-5 day is 8 hours minus an hour for lunch is 7 hours times 20 days a month times 12 months, for 1680 hours a year.

Teacher 7:30-3:30 day is 8 hours times 190 days. That's 1520 hour, or a single month extra. Of course, a lot of teachers come in around 7 instead, or leave about 4. My mother did both, for ten years, and barely had time to do all the work required of her. I saw plenty of other teachers that did that too. Even if they don't show up for themselves extra, teachers end up hanging around before and after school for quite a lot of school-required functions, from monitoring students before classes to parent/teacher conferences to PTA meetings to after-school clubs.

Of course, people in other contract jobs work extra too, but usually not consistently. Maybe once a year they end up working a 12-hour a day week.

Oh, and teachers don't get any sick days or personal leave days. Well, they do, but they have to pay their replacement, which no one in any other job has to do. Just like no other eight hour job doesn't have a lunch break.

Teachers work weird times, compared to other jobs, but pretending they work less actual amounts of time is just ignorance. They may work 190 days a years instead of the 240 days that other contract workers do, but that doesn't have any bearing on the actual hours spent, which often is about the same amount other contract workers work.

And the reason you hear about underpaid teachers is that, in many parts of the country, they still are. Michigan, however, is not one of those places.

Some points

[Lurker McLurker]

• First of all, the taxes aren't just to pay for the music players, they are for a number of measures.
• Secondly, the story doesn't specifiy it'll be ipods, just a digital audio player. Given the more reasonably-priced audio players around, they'd be idiots to pick Apple's trendy but pricey players.
• I think digital audio players could be very useful in an educational context, but current copyright law will probably render them useless. You need to be able to put useful content on these devices. This could end up being very expensive.
• The person who wrote the cnet story is called Erica Ogg.

Re:Some points

[wizzahd]

they'd be idiots to pick Apple's trendy but pricey players.

On Thursday, House Democrats delivered a spending bill

Hm..

Re:Some points

[tidewaterblues]

Lucky for me I happen to be a Michigan resident living in a strained economic area. I can attest fully that this idea is beyond moronic in our current economic climate.

I work in higher education IT, and I have a fair idea about what does and does not work in the classroom. This is yet another example of people believing that throwing technology at students will make them learn better. We have done this on a grand national scale to the tune of billion of dollars in various programs, and so far it has not had a measurable impact. Where I work we just had one of the major DOE education program spends thousands of dollars on an enormous wide-format printer for underprivileged students. So that they can print posters. Posters. In college. This is their idea of a sound technological investment in education. Not to mention that we already had one just like it.

The fact of the matter is that no one "gets it" when it comes to technology in the classroom. An until they do, crap like this will keep creeping into legislation. The only silver lining about this is that there is no way in hell the governor will sign this measure into law.

Whispered in their ear

[friend.ac]

Do you think the RIAA lobbied Michigan for the free ipods? I believe they need some more cash..

"Here you go young child, here's a free ipod, can't pay for music on it? Don't worry - HA HA HA"

Rubbing their hands in glee at the thought of suing all those kids..

Great

[adona1]

Now if only someone can write an adding & subtracting game for the PS3, I can start lobbying politicians here to subsidise those...for educational purposes =)

In fact, the Wii promotes physical fitness as well, so they'd better give us one of them too. [It might seem weird to give us a game of a sport rather than encouraging us to actually do said sport, but it's not. It's progress =)]

... higher taxes to buy someone else's kid ...

[pedantic bore]

They'll probably feel the same way that they do about paying higher taxes to give someone else's kid a better education, or some else's parents a better senior center, or the people on a different street a better sidewalk...

Part of being a community is pooling resources in to help others. Even if you don't have any children of your own, for example, someone paid for your schooling, and when you're an adult you pay it back.

Of course, then there are the endless arguments about exactly how this money should be spent...

$920 million deficit means more spending, right?

[Anonymous Coward]

Consider this:

- the state of Michigan currently has a fiscal year 2007 budget of $920 million
- the state government has been instructed to prepare for a shutdown this may due to lack of funds
- next year's budget deficit is estimated to be more than $1 billion due to the single-business tax repeal that hasn't been replaced
- Gov. Granholm has proposed higher taxes (a 2% tax on services) to cover part of the current deficit

Combined with the problems of the Big 3 automakers (GM, Ford, Chrysler) that's been causing most of the economic slump in this area, the state legislatures have got to be daft to propose more spending on such silly projects. Now is the time for spending cuts, not increased spending!

The state has been trying to convince students to stay in the state following graduation; I for one will run out of this state as fast as I can once I graduate in a few months (PhD in Aerospace Engineering). There is no way I want to stick around and see the state legislature and governor make the state economy even worse than it is.

Some problems

[PhotoGuy]

I like the concept, but I have a few problems with it.

First of all, why Apple? I love Apple, and I love the iPod, but in many ways, it's a prestige brand, not something that is warranted for a utilitarian purpose such as this. You can easily find as capable and reliable MP3 players for less than half the price of an equivalent iPod. The "wow" factor and ease of integration with iTunes, are both major features of the iPod, and both totally irrelevant to the educational purposes talked about here.

Also, learning is a very visual medium. Unless we're talking about the super expensive video iPods, then the use will be limited to audio and minimal simplistic document reading. (There are other, cheaper devices that do video and documents better/cheaper than a non-video iPod.) Are most textbooks available/suitable/useful for viewing on a 1 inch screen? Wouldn't that involve buying digital copies of all the relevant texts, and additional and unnecessary cost?

Plus, it will disguise music use; "what are you doing, Jimmy?" "Listening to a lecture, ma'am." Meanwhile he's listening to tunes. Like it or not, school kids do need some structure and supervision; this makes it too easy to goof off.

It sounds like someone's trying to seem progressive, and is very misguided.

More Details...

[suv4x4]

"The iPods that will be given away are iPod Shuffle, a light music player that shuffles the songs and plays them randomly", explained a spokesman for the House of Representatives.

"We'll intermix the lectures with the latest pop and hip-hop singles, and the kids will have to put up with listening to lectures randomly so they can play they favorite music. We think it'll be a smashing success.".

Well okay then...

[Viceroy Potatohead]

House Democrats delivered a spending bill that includes the idea of putting $38 million worth of public funds toward outfitting every student with a digital music player.

So let me get this straight: Apple's next big product is called the iPorkBarrel?

Re:Finally!

[sharperguy]

I think OLPC's would be a great idea. They are actually cheaper than iPods (and many other DAP's) and as long as you buy 1M+ of them then there's no reason why you can't. They would be much more usefull in education and since thats what they were designed for, as opposed to entertainment, it might seems much more worthwhile paying for them.

You have got to be kidding..

[ari wins]

Living in Michigan, I can tell you I was shocked to read this. We're currently facing a multi-hundred million budget deficeit (400+ iirc), and this actually stayed in? They're closing schools all over the state, our single-business tax has expired, so they're trying to get another gas tax added on (costing 3cents/gal. for 3 years for a total of an additional 9/gal), and Granholm has been trying to get an "entertainment" tax in place, meaning taxes on movies, video games, etc. etc. Our "sin" tax seemingly goes up yearly, meaning when I moved back up here from TN. I went from paying under $3/pack of smokes to over $5. Granted, that's not as high as some metropolitan areas, but the cost of living is no where NEAR those places, therefore neither are the wages.

Frankly, I'm saddened by it. We used to have some of the best roads in the nation, and now I can't drive to work without wondering when my suspension is going to fail. It's not even a matter of avoiding the potholes, you actually have to avoid entire roads. Now you're telling me every little bastard in school is going to get an ipod? What about my nephew, who attends a private charter school? We pay property taxes, even though he doesn't attend public schools, and now you're going to tell me I have to foot the bill for this?

I only wish Granholm hadn't been the lesser of two evils this prior election. On the bright side, however, she's done a great job turning the strengths of our states into our weaknesses, while also driving businesses (Lifesavers, Johnson Controls, numerous others) out of the area. What's next?

Re:You have got to be kidding..

[HardWoodWorker]

Your comment is quite obnoxious.

What about my nephew, who attends a private charter school? We pay property taxes, even though he doesn't attend public schools, and now you're going to tell me I have to foot the bill for this? Sorry, buddy, but I don't have kids and I happily pay my property taxes. Even if I never plan on burdening the public school system, the products of these schools will be my caretakers when I'm elderly and my coworkers in my near future. It's to everyone's interest to ensure the success of all children in the United States. If you think otherwise, I kindly ask you to leave my country. Your self-centered outlook is killing America. As much as you'd like to think, you are not the master of your own destiny. When I hear comments like that, it's usually from those who regard themselves as "self-made" and think their success in life is entirely the result of their actions and that if everyone was as smart/hard-working/${pick your adjective} as they are, everyone would have the same fate and not be on-welfare/in-poverty/on drugs/${pick your social ill here}. Your success is based on the success of all America, especially the middle class. Do I think iPods are a worthwhile investment?...no, but I'll happily pay my taxes to support the school system. Frankly, I don't think iPods are the greatest waste of money you'll find in the Michigan budget this year.

Re:You have got to be kidding..

[Dun Malg]

I don't live in Michigan, so I don't know if this would work, but here is my idea.

Implementing local sales taxes might create problems since the system is not set up to deal with that. However, what they can do is, if not already, create additional state sales tax rates.

Certain businesses would have a higher sales tax rate depending on the type of business.

Why? What possible justification is there for implementing a byzantine variable sales tax based on the type of business?

Perhaps superstores (like Wal-Mart) be subject to an addition 1 cent/dollar sales tax. Prices are low enough already, so this wouldn't be a big deal. Ah, they old misguided "they can afford it" reasoning. People don't always shop at Wal-Mart because they're cheapskates. Many people shop there because they have very little money. So essentially what you're proposing is a 1% tax on being poor. Way to go.

Restaurants would be subject to an addition 0.5 cent/dollar sales tax. Because only rich folks eat at restaurants. Especially fast food joints.

Restaurant deliveries would be subject to an addition 0.7 cent/dollar sales tax (on top of the above). Because only rich folks have pizzas delivered. Seriously, are you trying to drive every little chinese food and pizza shop out of business, leaving only Dominoes?

Etc. "Etc.", in other words "keep adding random taxes onto random businesses until we've either made up the deficit, or driven every last small business out of the state." You should run for state legislature. You'd fit right in.

Re:You have got to be kidding..

[feepness]

(costing 3cents/gal. for 3 years for a total of an additional 9/gal)

If 3 cents/gal for three years is 9 cents/gal, yes, Michigan is in trouble.

Re:You have got to be kidding..

[Acer500]

(costing 3cents/gal. for 3 years for a total of an additional 9/gal)

If 3 cents/gal for three years is 9 cents/gal, yes, Michigan is in trouble. I suspect he didn't phrase it correctly. Lemme Google for it... the Times Herald says that

Bipartisan legislation, introduced Tuesday by Rep. Hoon-Yung Hopgood, D-Taylor, and House Minority Leader Craig DeRoche, R-Novi, would raise the gas tax 9 cents in three years - topping out at 28 cents per gallon by 2010. So it seems he was correct. I guess they will be increasing it by 3 cents every year.

wtf mang

[kaizokuace]

seriously wtf. This is the dumbest idea these policrats are spittin out since i dunno, ever. This money could be used to how about this: pay teachers more. I'm not saying get more teachers. Pay them higher salary. If i was a teacher and i suddenly got more money i would think i would enjoy teaching more. Happy teacher = learned student IMHO. I seriously think the country as a whole should be pumping money into the school system because now its not just the problem of too many people living too long or something and not enuff people putting into social security for each person that is receiving but that there will be too many idiots that cant make enuff money to put money into the system a guess what happens after that! The current generation will have dumb kids that cant support us when we are living way too long! or something like that i dunno maybe i am dumb and dont know how the system works but ranting at 5am is better than sleeping right now i think.

Re:Sensationalist

[blagooly]

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/
The bill includes the cost savings by releasing 2400 prisoners. They will Not be given iPods. Instead, each will get a confiscated weapon if they promise to move to Ohio.
Not yet made public is a clause that makes Detroit part of Canada. "We are hoping that the change does Detroit good, moving to a new place can have that effect, you know, and Canada is really very nice,really."

Incomplete support

[halalay]

I expect that teachers will be given one day of training on incorporating the use of iPods into their teaching, provided no other resources or time to do successful incorporation, be blamed when the program flops, and be that much more reluctant to invest themselves in other new and promising tech initiatives in education.

I am a high school info tech teacher in Michigan. Some of my classes are currently working to produce podcasts to help improve their understanding of available resources to support their current and future learning and to increase the range of media that they can communicate through. I have only just heard of the iPod initiative. The research I share with my students shows that good podcasts take planning and use intelligent editing. Class lectures done in podcasts will be of no more value than current hard copy if the students don't listen to or view them.

iPods for learning have potential, but despite the good intentions, it currently is just another top down, half-baked solution to a serious problem. Past experience leads me to be very cynical of tech initiatives for education, not because they can't work, but because they are incompletely supported.

Cool, a second iPod, courtesy of the taxpayers!

[LaughingCoder]

As of 2003, there were 52 million school age children in the US (http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/l atestpopcounts.htm).

As of the end of 2006, there were 42 million iPods sold (http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-6416165.html )

It strikes me that a large percentage of the Michigan school kids probably already have iPods.

Re:'ey mang!

[kaizokuace]

oh and one more thing, Why mp3 players! i understand that the goal is to get education to the student but these peeps just got the wrong idea. I say the development of serious games is more promising. Put money into developing games that can be given out to students (cross platform of course) that can help them learn subjects. I am not saying stuff like all the learning crap thats out now which seems to me like they think kids are dumb and need everything in a dumb kiddy theme (i hope you know what i mean by this). Educational games can be so much more than dora the explorer and reader rabbit! Overt education in software doesnt seem to work. You gotta throw some meat in with those veggies! and maybe kick it up a notch with some essence of emeril. BAM!

Misguided

[mattr]

Yes this is moronic. They should spend the money on teachers and texts.

On the other hand, even supposing they have plenty of money they still made a bad choice.

Based on my experience with a new video iPod I received as a present:

• Very hard to use for text. Bad navigational control, no paging, tiny font, must split in tiny chunks with max of IIRC 8MB total, can't display HTML. Even if they hacked Mac OSX into them, hardware wise it is a very bad choice for education.
  
• Not robust. Synching while using as hd, often get persistent errors that suggest need to reformat.
  
• For target age group, forcing kids to listen to lectures in class probably more effective than expecting them to synch and listen themselves. Though perhaps a library of video interviews by professionals/experts could be very cool! Aim at adults and get them to buy the hardware themselves! Spend the money on content/software (esp. free software programming) and not on hardware, doh!
  
• There is a very effective way to use tech in language, and I've been there. Middlebury's summer intensive language program had fabulous IIRC Tandenberg tape recorders you use in a tiny room of your own, with headset/mic and volume controls so you can superimpose your voice on that of the language drill prof on tape. By pressing revers very often you can (I did successfully) build a very good accent. Also Cornell University's Dept. of Modern Languages had similar tape recorders. So you want something with robust hardware buttons like that. maybe a linear slide is okay but the circular one on the video ipod is extremely difficult to use to back up to a place you want to be a few seconds ago, due to both physical configuration and gooiness. Having it digital instead of tape makes no difference with this screen size, though with larger screen you could show frames ever 1 sec into the past and click on one for example. Also power drainage a problem. Also there are cheaper, very tiny mp3 players that work fine with no moving parts or scratch-sensitive coating either.
  
• If they went for a cheap ipod shuffle that is just totally dumb. just shuffle again if you hit a lecture.
  

Excuse me, Michigan

[Duffie]

Exactly why has this become our top priority. I've watched from forty miles away as they've closed down Detroit schools and shut that community out more than they already are. Places like Detroit and inner Flint are struggling to even fit the definition of a city in the first world, and now our economic priority is... digital audio players! Oh, yeah. Because we all know that they're going to go home and put on their device scientific podcasts and discussions debating the importance of the Han Dynasty in China. We all know how academically sound students are anyway. THIRTY EIGHT MILLION DOLLARS? We just had an election centered on our business tax and how we can appropriate funds once we remove it. WELL THERE YOU GO. Better yet, let's spend that 38 million reviving the education system to include some kind of motivation and benefit to graduate well. But now. Now teachers and future teachers, like me, will get to hear "Sorry Mrs. Teacher, I didn't do my homework podcast thing because I had to rip cd's onto the ipod." Great job on the priorities, little Jimmy. Your government hath done thineself proud.

Re:I'm sorry, what?

[Lawrence_Bird]

soapbox mode is on

Er.. no. How many billions more dollars must be wasted on the 'education system' before people realize throwing money at it does no good - including pay for teachers.

The AFT teacher salary survey for the 2004-05 school year found that the average teacher salary was $47,602

Note that in 2005 the median household income was $46,300. [we'll assume teacher salaries are not so widely dispersed that the mean is a fair estimate of the median] Teachers get a tremendous benefits package and do not work a full year. The students educated before electronic blackboards, computers in every class, class size under 20, (insert stupid education metric here) managed to graducate high school and go on to such things as developing quantum mechanics, various field theories, nuclear weapons, man on moon, space probes,.... And until you actually pay for the little rugrats education by owning a property you will never fully understand just how much it costs. My latest assessment results in local school taxes in excess of the full year tuition at the state college. And before you claim the college is subsidized, so is the local school system. The system is horribly broke and it is time turn back the clock and revert to what once worked very well (note to parents: this might also include getting the balls to disciplining your child).

I wonder if there would be the same type...

[lord_mike]

...of outrage if the suggestion was to buy MacBooks for every classroom.

Probably not... although, I imagine that 30 years ago, there was probably some resistance to buying kids Apple II's in their schools, with the same old curmudgeon responses, "But the roads stink. We don't need more stuff in schools... bah!!!"

Yes, Michigan roads stink... I always know I've hit the Michigan border when I hear the "kerchunk, kerchunk" every few seconds... you can set a timer to it. Perhaps it's the fact that you guys drive like 90 MPH.

Michigan is in the same dire straights that Ohio is now, but it's not because of Jennifer Granholm or anything the state government did or did not do. The U.S. automobile industry is in the tanker, and the economy of Michigan feeds off of the Big 3. No amount of state intervention (or non-intervention) would have helped the situation. If you can blame anyone, blame our federal government, who has shown little interest in protecting American industries. Michigan is just feeling it's disastrous effects. Of course, political opponents are using this to their advantage. But, does anyone really believe that DeVos would have been able to improve anything?

This single line item in the budget that has everybody so in an uproar won't pass. It can't pass, since the state can't run a deficit like the feds... It sure struck a nerve, but unfairly so, I believe.

Thanks,

Mike

Re:I wonder if there would be the same type...

[Darth_brooks]

Yes, Michigan roads stink... I always know I've hit the Michigan border when I hear the "kerchunk, kerchunk" every few seconds... you can set a timer to it. Perhaps it's the fact that you guys drive like 90 MPH.

Ahh michigan, where you can go by a state trooper doing 80, because he's looking for the guys doing 110...

Road conditions in Michigan suck for four reasons:

1. Climate. The temp swings 120 degrees every year, and usually can swing 60 degrees in a week. Yeah, I know this happens in other states, but Michigan usually gets hit harder.
2. Budget vs. Infrastructure. Michigan has a MASSIVE amount of highway space. More than it needs now. But they still have to pay to maintain it.
3. Salt. Michigan salts roads and gets the plow trucks out at the first hint of snow. Here in Sunny South Bend, Plow trucks come out oh, you know, when they get around to it. I've seen double the snow during the winter here in SoBend than I saw in SE Mich, and I've seen half the plows. Don't know if that means we underplow, or they overplow, either way, those trucks are out in force come winter in Mich.
4. Weight limits. Michigan has the 2nd highest weight limit for Semi's in the union. We allow trucks of 164,000 pounds on the roads. For reference, a GE Genesis locomotive (think amtrak) is 254,000 pounds. The official line is that we require more axles to distribute the load. Which in and of itself is a load. You're still driving tanks over abused roads.

Individually, none of these problems are huge. Every other state deals with the same issues. But the cumulative effect makes things pretty rough. The funny thing about it is, driving into and out of Detroit is actually pretty nice now that they've redone I-94. That was a true shithole of a highway until the superbowl motivated them into doing some real work.

Why You're Wrong

[Luscious868]

Don't you understand man? You wanting to get out of Michigan as fast as you can, which has been the trend for highly educated students coming out of Michigan Universities, is a big reason for why Michigan is going down the tubes. If you really care about our state, you would stay and do your part in trying to bring back economic prosperity to the region.

You're wrong. Michigan is experiencing a single state recession and the Governor's solution is to raise taxes on an already overburdened population. Michigan should be cutting spending and lowering taxes in a bid to retain those of us who are contributing to the tax base instead of reaching into our wallets and trying to take more. Michigan has to compete with 49 other states in addition to countries the world over. When will the Governor realize this and take steps to make Michigan a more attractive place to do business instead of raising taxes and making an already bad economic situation worse? Nobody has an obligation to stay in Michigan, especially when it's being mismanaged in such a horrendous fashion.

The Michigan Congressional Delegation is also to blame. For every dollar Michigan residents send to the federal government the State of Michigan receives about $0.85 cents back in return. It's a crime that Michigan is a donor state given our current economic situation. Especially when there is every indication that it's going to get worse before it gets better. Our Congressmen and Senators should be on the floor of their respective Houses of Congress every day that Congress is in session making an issue of this situation! Why would anybody expect residents with the means to stay in this state when their elected representatives continue to show such a failure of leadership?

educational iPod ?

[billcopc]

How is an iPod educational ? I remember way back in the 90's when I was a student :P We didn't have MP3 course materials, we had audio cassettes. A portable cassette player in the 90's cost about $20. Then when CD burners got cheap, people were distributing discs. A portable CD player in the 2000's costs $20. iPod players cost $200 right now, and I doubt they'll ever be $20, not even the chinese knockoffs. I say stick to CD players. They're cheap, they're reliable, they're ubiquitous, they're well understood by even the dumbest members of society; all facts that do not apply to digital players at this point in time.

Of all the things going on in Michigan right now, this is not a priority. Just walk up to any state citizen and ask them what they think their government should be doing. The ones who answer "iPod!", just smack them over the head with a shovel! What most honest, self-supporting people in North America want from their government is less bullshit like this, and lower taxes. The more stuff the government buys with tax money, the closer we get to being full-on communists.

Re:I'm sorry, what?

[ZorbaTHut]

Actually, if anything, I think teachers aren't being paid enough. Ever heard the phrase "those who can, do, those who can't, teach"? It's true - if you can do something, you get a job doing it. If you can't make a living doing it, instead you teach people how to do it. Guess how well this works.

There's three big problems with the American educational system at the moment.

* Money going to the wrong places - computers bought with no plans in mind, new buildings without staff for them, extraordinary administrator salaries for administrators who don't do anything.
* Incompetent teachers, paid badly enough to keep all the possibly-skilled teachers far, far away.
* America's teacher's union, which essentially requires teachers to be kept or fired based solely on seniority, not competence.

The latter keeps the former two going. If you want to fix the educational system, the first thing you do is get rid of the damn union, the second thing you do is fire crappy teachers, and the third thing you do is raise teacher salaries enough to hire good teachers.

Supply and demand. There's just not enough demand to create a good supply.

Re:$920 million deficit means more spending, right

[grim4593]

There are many reasons Michigan is going down the tubes. All the auto industries are leaving, the government is fubar, and taxes are going up. Who in their right might would want to stay here? Every other week there is something on the news about such and such company laying off 1000-10000 workers. Those that are not being laid off are being forced to take pay cuts.

I like Michigan, I have lived here my whole life. Most of my family lives here too. However, if I can't get a good paying job after graduating college, I am going to leave Michigan because I have to make a living.

Love the lack of fuss over no bid contracts

[jmorris42]

> Why not spend the money on text books or library books or classrooms or teachers? Or all four?

Well if ya are committed to pissing away $30 mil when you already have a deficit I guess what you say makes sense.

And I want to know how Apple manages to get their product specced in legilation, avoiding bidding them out. Of course Apple, being by far the most expensive vendor, would never win the contract and some no name digital player wouldn't have the buzz for the bill's backers. This stinks of corruption, we need an investigation. At least an investigation would cost less and scuttle the project at least until it finished.

[sarcasm]
You Apple fans should be opposed as well. If every kid is walking around with YOUR beloved fashion accessory just how the hell does your self esteem get boosted by being better than everyone else?
[/sarcasm]