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Japanese Mileage Maniacs

Posted by Zonk on from the where-did-they-get-those-wonderful-toys dept.

WY writes "Bloomberg reports on the quirky world of Japanese hybrid car hackers: 'Toyota Motor Corp. says its Prius gasoline-electric hybrid car gets about 55 miles to the gallon, making it one of the most fuel-efficient cars on the road. That's not good enough for Takashi Toya.' He managed to reach as high as 115 MPG. He is one of about 100 nenpimania, Japanese for mileage maniacs."

42 of 277 comments (clear)

  1. Mileage? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Don't they use kilometers there?

    1. Re:Mileage? by darkitecture · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Don't they use kilometers there?

      Well if you want to get that technical, yes we use kilometers here. But even in English speaking countries, mileage is commonly used because "kilometrage" would just sound silly. Mileage or simply "fuel efficiency" is acceptable.

      But just for the pedantic, the japanese characters for "nenpi" (I'd type them here but Slashdot doesn't seem to accept Japanese characters) are literally translated as the character for "burn" (On reading of 'nen') and the character for "cost" or "consumption" (On reading of 'hi' or in this case, 'pi'). Mileage is just the (American) English equivalent. Fuel consumption would probably be more widely accepted.

    2. Re:Mileage? by darkitecture · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Kojien (the Japanese equivalent of the Oxford dictionary) defines "nenpi" as "fuel consumption as represented by kilometers per liter".

      Well of course it does. Kilometers and liters are used here in Japan, hence it would be measured in kilometers per liter. Or sometimes liters per 100km (xL/100km). But the characters used for nenpi do not have reference to kilometers or miles.

      Take for example the phrase "Top speed". The phrase doesn't refer to kph or mph or meters per second or anything, but depending on its context, you can judge which is appropriate. If you're in the US, it'd be more appropriate to use mph, if you're in Japan, it'd be more appropriate to use kph. If you're talking about a satellite in orbit, maybe meters per second might be more appropriate.

      The phrase "nenpi" is almost only purely used in reference to fuel consumption of cars. However I have seen it used in reference to physical fitness, so I think any jisho (dictionary) saying nenpi is purely measured in kilometers per liter is being too narrow in its definition.

  2. Good enough for me by MMaestro · · Score: 4, Funny
    In a country where gasoline costs more than $4 a gallon, at least $1 more than the U.S. price, enthusiasts tweak their cars and hone driving techniques to cut fuel bills and gain bragging rights.

    Cutting down on fuel bills AND bragging rights? Where do I sign!?

    1. Re:Good enough for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Compensating for something?

  3. How "real" is their driving? by xmas2003 · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The article is a bit light on details, but my guess is a significant factor is they are driving on fairly flat terrain, they really minimize accelerations, and probably stay below typical highway speeds since air drag becomes significant. I.e. I'd like to see 'em get 100+ MPG driving over some Colorado mountain passes. Article also doesn't talk about this, but I bet for long trips, the savings in gas that is offset by the extended driving times ends up valueing their time at a pretty darn low $$$/hour.

    Sure, I'm all for more fuel efficient cars and less fossil fuel burning, but there is a tradeoff.

    --
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    1. Re:How "real" is their driving? by kanweg · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, on the way up, the fuel efficiency drops. But you build up potential energy, so you hardly use any energy when the car goes down. Any braking power is passed to the batteries. Driving with my dad's petrol car in mountainous regions in France and Italy, I was always surprised that I managed to get a mileage better than regular (probably helped by the fact that the average speed was lower). The first rule of fuel efficiency is: BREAKING IS FOR LOSERS. If you have to brake, you're not good at anticipating very well. Cross-road or round-about coming up: lift you foot from the peddle. Second rule: KEEP ROLLING. You must make sure you keep on roling. If a traffic light is coming up, I may brake well before the traffic light, then roll along. In all likelihood, the light is green when I reach it, and I may have left a speed of 15 miles per hour. If I had stopped, I would have been slower too, because I'd have to start from zero. It is one of those things people fail to understand (just like: the fastest way to overtake another car is to keep a distance from him (much safer too), instead of tailgating. You can see the opportunity for taking over earlier, you can start making speed, if it doesn't work you break, if it does work you're having a first speed difference in comparison to a tail gater). Lastly, I may drive behind a truck (we have laws here that forbid them to pollute too much so it is OK). Saves up to 10% (more if I were closer, but as long as we don't have a connection between braking and distance control, that is out).

      Bert

    2. Re:How "real" is their driving? by anagama · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Japan is pretty mountainous -- obviously not as high as the rockies but lots of up, down, and around.

      --
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    3. Re:How "real" is their driving? by PetrusMagnusII · · Score: 3, Informative

      You do realize that only 11% of Japanese land is arable don't you? There are a lot of mountains in Japan. Perhaps it would not be possible to achieve such great millage driving through the Rockies in the US or the Minami-Alps in Japan, but the Rockies are only a small portion of the US, and everything between the Rockies and Appalachian is essentially flat.

      Heck, all the land speed records are set in America for a reason, completely flat and no resistance.

    4. Re:How "real" is their driving? by arivanov · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You are absolutely right except the "behind the truck bit". I would not do that as I may end up "between the trucks". Unfortunately, your advice is hard to apply (at least in the UK).

      Unfortunately at least in this country (UK) you are likely to cause a case of road rage. All driving schools teach a completely different driving style. Namely, you are taught to go close to the roundabout without deccelerating and switch 4-to-2nd or 5-to-3rd for the big ones to kill your speed right away with the engine while helping yourself with the breaks. Same for traffic lights, stopping, etc. Even if it is absolutely clear that a traffic light will go green any minute, the average british driver will go all the way to it, break, stop and wait. As a result if you deccelerate early the one bihind you may end up smashing into you or uses breaks to deccelerate early and gets pissed off.

      Most of the population drives like that. I used to drive the way you describe (and I still do if I am more or less alone on the road) and I had idiots behind me flashing lights at me all the time.

      --
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    5. Re:How "real" is their driving? by kanweg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, obviously I'm not trying to promote a variation of playing chicken. Sure, in situations as you describe one has to break or change to a lower gear to keep the speed of the car in check. The good thing about a car capable of charging its batteries when breaking is, however, that break energy goes to the batteries and can be re-used fairly efficiently, whereas in regular petrol cars you're heating the air and go for early replacement of the brake pads. My main point is merely that the way one drives is of effect on how much one spends on gas, and the second point is that while some aspects of the energy-saving driving style lowers the average speed, others increase the average speed.

      Bert

    6. Re:How "real" is their driving? by Jay+Carlson · · Score: 4, Informative

      The first rule of fuel efficiency is: BRAKING IS FOR LOSERS.

      Absolutely, and that's still important in vehicles with regenerative braking.

      The Prius has a bar graph of your MPG per five minute interval. It overlays cute little green car icons to show how much energy you recaptured through braking during that interval as well. But you shouldn't think of those car icons as part of your score. They're more like the bonus you get when the ball drains out of the pinball machine.

      Consider this: when you step on the brakes in a Prius, you convert kinetic energy to electrical energy, which is then stored in a battery, which you then use to regain kinetic energy.

      But oddly enough, the most efficient way to store kinetic energy is as....kinetic energy. Regenerative braking is a consolation prize for when you had to step on the brakes. Better not to do that in the first place, if you can manage it while being safe and courteous.

    7. Re:How "real" is their driving? by mickwd · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Unfortunately at least in this country (UK) you are likely to cause a case of road rage. All driving schools teach a completely different driving style. Namely, you are taught to go close to the roundabout without deccelerating and switch 4-to-2nd or 5-to-3rd for the big ones to kill your speed right away with the engine while helping yourself with the breaks. Same for traffic lights, stopping, etc. Even if it is absolutely clear that a traffic light will go green any minute, the average british driver will go all the way to it, break, stop and wait. As a result if you deccelerate early the one bihind you may end up smashing into you or uses breaks to deccelerate early and gets pissed off."

      Not sure I agree with this. I was taught to always change down one gear at a time. If you use engine braking by changing down TWO gears at a time, you're going to slow down fairly rapidly WITHOUT YOUR BRAKE LIGHTS COMING ON. This is much more likely to cause a) rear-end accidents; and b) road rage; than slowly down gently. I slow down the way the GP post described, and I never have any problems drivers behind getting annoyed (though I can see they might if you did it "to excess" (i.e. risked yourself and the cars behind not being able to get through the lights when they turn green)).

  4. well.. that xprize went fast! by plasmacutter · · Score: 4, Interesting

    he just won that multimillion dollar xprize for 100+ mpg from a practical car!

    damn he's lucky.. if he knows about it and turns it in that is.

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    1. Re:well.. that xprize went fast! by Venerable+Vegetable · · Score: 2, Informative

      From your own linked article:

      "The guidelines specify that the car must be appealing to buyers and easy to mass produce -- warning that concept cars or "science projects" won't qualify.

      The vehicles will compete in real-world driving tests, in two categories -- mainstream (four or more passengers and four wheels) and alternative (two or more passengers and no requirement on the number of wheels)."

  5. Called Hypermiling in America by CliffSpradlin · · Score: 4, Informative

    We have people who do the same thing here.. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermiling

  6. Re:driving technique by JanneM · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A minor point is that in most of the United States, at least, it is illegal to drive barefoot.

    What? Serious?

    So, what counts as "not barefoot"? Does it have to be shoes or is socks sufficient? What material is allowed for the socks - could you just use nylon hose to count as "not barefoot" or does the foot cover have to be opaque? Who defines what counts as "shoes"? or "soles"? How much of the foot does the "shoe" have to cover? If you're driving an automatic, do you still need shoes on both feet? Where do you apply for an exemption in case of a cast? Can you get a religious exemption? Can you be exempt for really bad foot fungus?

    Do your police examine peoples' shoes or do you have special roving "foot patrols" to keep the law? How many people are being prosecuted for this?

    "Sir, step away from that shoe horn and I mean _right_now_"

    I'll never take any comment on European "nanny states" seriously ever again.

    --
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  7. Why only 55? by Brad1138 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It is good to see people getting "real" good mileage. The Prius gets 55 MPG, the Geo metro and Honda civic in the late 80's and early 90 got mid 50's. I heard some GM exec on the radio yesterday talking about the new 50 MPG small cars they were bringing to market, what, "used Honda's"? If a regular engine can get 50+ MPG it shouldn't be hard for a Hybrid to get 70 or 80+, if not 100+.

    --
    If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
    1. Re:Why only 55? by janek78 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Good point, our regular turbodiesel Skoda (a European car) gets 70-80 mpg even if you not trying. It's always fun comparing American and European cars. Other point is - they all have one person in them anyway, so theoretically, they should all do like 200 mpg, right? It seems so wasteful to be dragging around two tons of metal to transport one person.

    2. Re:Why only 55? by Mr.+Flibble · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It seems so wasteful to be dragging around two tons of metal to transport one person.


      I really wish around here in BC they would change the licence/insurance laws. I used to drive a truck (until the head gasket went and leaked all the coolant into the oil pan) and I now drive a tercel. However, I would like to insure both under a single licence. Why? Because there are times when I could use a truck, and I used to use my truck to fill a need about 1 time every week. The rest of the time I could have got by with a much more fuel efficent car. However, licencing 2 vehicles offsets the value in having more than one. If I could have swapped plates from truck to car, I could have driven the truck 1 day a week, and the car the other 6. But this is not legal here. Hell, if I could do that I would rather have a truck and a smart fortwo car. Because on my own the fortwo would work great, and for those times where I need more space, I can drive the truck.

      Changing insurance methods could save gas in situations like these.
      --
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    3. Re:Why only 55? by castlec · · Score: 2, Informative

      Part of the reason that there aren't many diesels on the road in the US is a lack of clean diesel in the US that is available in Europe. I don't remember where I originally read that but it remotely makes sense. Overall though, you're right. There is no real reason that the majority of cars available in Europe shouldn't be available in the US. When I move back to the US (I'm an American living in Prague), I may just take a car with me.

      --
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    4. Re:Why only 55? by vux984 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree completely, almost.

      In my case for example I drive a 911, which is neither remotely fuel efficient nor inexpensive to maintain -- but it has a lot of the same disadvantages as a smart car so bear with me. It's lousy for transporting even moderately sized items, you can't haul a boat, or fill it with relatives, or bricks, etc... While I knew I'd love the car I thought I'd *really* miss having a larger vehicle. Turned out its not the big deal I thought it was.

      Sure I *could* own a 2nd vehicle, but it turns out I only actually really need one half a dozen times per year. (I think not having one makes you learn to "need" it even less.) But on those occassions I really do want one I just rent one. I also use the various delivery services available when buying furniture, etc. And occasionally use couriers to ship mid-size items that don't fit in the car. I spend around $800-1000 at most per year on rentals and these delivery services, which seems like a lot at first blush... but its nearly half the cost of insuring a second vehicle, and I don't have any maintenance expense, no lease expense, no capital tied up in a depreciating vehicle, and I don't have to worry about having a place to park it either.

      Even if ICBC halved or thirded insurance on '2ndary vehicles' I still wouldn't have bothered getting one.

      I recognize that this won't work for everybody, but I'm surprised at how painless it turned out for me.

      Another option is Temporary Operation Permits, which are also a bit of a pain in the ass as you have to buy them for each date you want to drive, but they provide a decent option for someone who wants to own a vehicle and only drive it a couple times per month. (And maybe keep a storage policy on it if its worth anything.)

      All that said, I too wish ICBC let you have multiple vehicles under a single policy, paying the price for the most expensive vehicle to be covered, so you could drive the one you want when you want without hassle or paying multiple times. One can only be driving one car at a time after all. I guess it would have to be a little higher for each additional car to cover storage/comprehensive on each of them.

      Yet for all the complaints about ICBC and the 'public insurance company' we've got it pretty good. People always say... "ooo look at how much cheaper insurance is in AB, we should privatize!" Vancouver driving is more like Toronto than Edmonton -- and if you think BC is overpriced you've never tried insuring in ontario. I lived a year there while in university - I had an MR2 (a $5k car at the time) - the best price I could get for remotely decent coverage was $5500 per year. I didn't drive that year.

    5. Re:Why only 55? by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 4, Informative

      My girlfriend's '02 VW Polo gets 55mpg without particularly trying.


      It's also a two-door compact car. The Prius is considerably larger - perhaps you should be comparing the VW Polo to the Honda Insight, which gets 65-70mpg.

      '93 Citroën AX 1.5D


      Your Citroën AX is a 650kg 2-door supermini that would be a deathtrap in a collision with anything of any size. Why the hell you would compare it to a 1400kg Prius (which is a 4-door "large family car") is completely beyond me.

      at least 80mpg from its dinky little 50bhp diesel engine


      You said two things there - 50bhp and diesel. Diesel contains 15% more energy per gallon than gasoline, making any "MPG" comparisons entirely pointless from a carbon-emission standpoint.

      Moreover, you also said 50bhp. That's redicolously underpowerd, even for your 650kg Citroën. Forget about having an automatic transmission on a vehicle like that, and you'd better be easy on the clutch or you're going to be in stall city.

      Forget hybrids and their environmentally-disasterous batteries and overcomplicated drive trains and electronics, get a diesel.


      Ah, more hybrid misnomers. If you don't understand the battery technologies involved (Ni-Mh in current models), don't comment. Ni-Mh is not "environmentally-disasterous" - in fact, the Ni in the battery is so valuable that Toyota pays a $500 per pack bounty for recycling.

      As for the "overcomplicated drive train", the Prius transmission has 12 moving parts, not one of which is a friction or wear component. In the past 5 years, I have never read a single account of a Prius transmission failing mechanically. The same cannot be said for manual or automatic transmissions, which fail all the time because they incorporate wear components (clutches/clutchpacks, syncromeshes, etc) and (in the case of an automatic transmission), high-pressure hydraulics.

      This is the typical European Slashdot hybrid idiot post. I've seen it far, far too many times. The post points out how a much smaller, much less powerful diesel-powered vehicle can achieive results similar to a hybrid. Then they top it off with some nice myths about how hybrids are complicated (they aren't - Toyota's Prius is in fact mechanically simpler and far more reliable than a conventional vehicle), bad for the environment (somehow, 80% fewer smog-forming emissions and excellent fuel economy are "bad" because you have to recycle a battery 15 years down the road), or dangerous.

      Here's a hint: don't compare a 3000lb 4-door large family vehicle (mid-size in the US) to a 2-door diesel subcompact. It makes you look stupid.
    6. Re:Why only 55? by bl8n8r · · Score: 5, Funny

      "so wasteful to be dragging around two tons of metal to transport one person."

      You must be new here. Our Hummers weigh in at much more than a measly two tons. Besides, American women with 1 or more children are forbidden to be seen in anything with four doors unless it's an SUV. (It's federal law; kind of like that big cloth bag they have to wear in the mideast). American males with premature balding, premature greying, limpdickosis and/or shortpeckeritis are also required to own at least one SUV and a Harley Davidson. The SUV must have at least 8 cylinders and you get a tax subsidy from Exxon if you upgrade to Hemi-anything. On weekends, most people take their Hummers out and rear-end anything that gets more than 25 mpg.

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    7. Re:Why only 55? by AaronW · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes.

      The drivetrain in the Prius is quite simple. See http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/890029-WI fqPO/890029.PDF. The "transmission" has only 6 gears in it (not speeds, gears), no mechanical torque converter. A diagram of it is on page 18 of the PDF file. The other gears are for connecting to the differential. Electronically it is complex, but not mechanically. The engine is a conventional 1.5L 4 cylinder engine, but run with the Atkinson cycle instead of the usual Otto cycle.

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    8. Re:Why only 55? by wrecked · · Score: 2, Informative

      I really wish around here in BC they would change the licence/insurance laws. I used to drive a truck (until the head gasket went and leaked all the coolant into the oil pan) and I now drive a tercel. However, I would like to insure both under a single licence. Why? Because there are times when I could use a truck, and I used to use my truck to fill a need about 1 time every week. The rest of the time I could have got by with a much more fuel efficent car.

      I don't know where you live, but if you are in Vancouver, you might want to try the Co-operative Auto Network. It's a co-op where you pay a one-time $500 membership fee, and per hour fees (as low as $2/hr) to sign out various vehicles for short periods of time.

      It's ideal for folks like you where you have a primary vehicle, but occasionally need a secondary. The co-op fleet has trucks and vans. My wife signed up, and it's better than purchasing (and insuring) a second car. Plus, she gets to satisfy her Mini Cooper fetish (the co-op has three that you can sign out) without having to shell out the bucks.
    9. Re:Why only 55? by Gordonjcp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Larger on the outside, maybe. Having ridden in a couple, I would call the Prius a 4-door subcompact!

      I can't actually drive a Prius. I'm 6'0" and 14 stone (a little below 200lb), and physically don't fit in the driver's seat. It doesn't go back far enough for my legs, so my knees hit the steering wheel. My right shoulder is bumping against the door pillar and my left shoulder is invading my passenger's space. It's just too damn small - more cramped inside than my AX (which is "cosy" to say the least with more than two people inside), and *way* smaller than my CX (which still doesn't quite have as much legroom as I'd like, despite being nearly 1/2 as big again as a Prius).

  8. Re:driving technique by belmolis · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is what I have always been told, but I just googled it to check, and it looks like it is an urban myth in terms of black-letter law. The police often consider it dangerous and may ticket you for reckless or negligent driving, which you could then dispute in court. In some states it IS illegal to ride a motorcycle barefoot. Driving barefoot is illegal in some other places, such as Hong Kong.

  9. Mileage mania? by RyanFenton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Mileage mania? What does that make stretch Hummer/fuel injected racecar owners? Sufferers of Mileage Dementia/Depression?

    My favorite motorcar extremists lately are the guys strapping together thousands of dollars worth of batteries to make ultra-high performance vehicles that still get 40 mpg. Sure, they have to go light and limited to 100 miles range per charge, but they end up with a true racecar that makes no sound except the burning of the wheels. That's just damn cool.

    Mileage itself is a bit of a red herring though - there's always going to be a need for vehicles with 'horrid' milage, and 'wasting' that fuel to move earth, or just push a lot of metal - it really isn't an inherent problem to 'waste' fuel on big cars. The only real concern is the effect using that fuel in a fuel cycle. If going through that cycle returns the earth to a carbon-rich atmosphere, that's not a good thing. If the cycle doesn't involve such troublesome consequences though, then as long as the fuel is worth it's other negative effects (like on your wallet), then I don't see how it's a problem.

    We just need better fuels and energy source paths. The market's having a hard time finding a good set of somethings for now - but the dynamics look to be changing, thanks in large part to a lot of nations making some rather interesting long-term investments in fuel research. If you get the right fuel, then I'd much rather have a fuel-inneficient car that theoretically retails for $12,000 after mass manufacture, than a maximized fuel efficient car that retails for $50,000. We need fuels we can waste, so we can consider fuel efficiency completely in terms of direct cost rather than indirect environmental impact as a society.

    I look forward to being able to waste a lot of new kinds of fuel in the future. Here's hoping they come up with one that smells like rich coffee ice cream!

    Ryan Fenton

  10. aerodynamics and rolling friction, not engine tech by SuperBanana · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If a regular engine can get 50+ MPG it shouldn't be hard for a Hybrid to get 70 or 80+, if not 100+.

    Highway mileage has nothing to do with hybrid vs. non-hybrid. You're still getting energy from the same fuel, in the same way. Even with a hybrid's electric motor helping with acceleration for passing, guess where energy to charge the battery back up again comes from? Ding, the gasoline motor (some regenerative braking, but most of the hybrids don't wait that long before they start charging the pack.)

    Take a look at the Insight. It gets noticeably more mileage than any of its hybrid siblings- I think it's in the high 60's or low 70's. Why? It's super-streamlined, complete with wheel skirts over the rear wheels. Now, notice that the shape is quite reminiscent of the Honda CRX, a car that got 50MPG, in the early 80's?

    If you completely switched off the hybrid system in a Prius or Honda Civic or (snicker) that hybrid Lexus SUV, guess what- highway gas mileage wouldn't change. The overwhelming factors for highway mileage are aerodynamics and rolling friction (tires, bearings, drivetrain components.) Lowering weight helps too; less energy required to accelerate and go up hills- and hybrids have that working against them because the battery packs, extra electronics+wiring, and traction motor all add weight.

    Diesels like the VW TDIs get 45-50MPG on the highway, and they do it with the same aerodynamics as standard VW's AND the extra weight of the heavier diesel engine, because diesels are more efficient. Put a diesel engine in a Insight, and you'd probably get a similar boost in mileage as between an gasoline Jetta and a TDI Jetta. Heck, you might crack 100mpg without breaking a sweat.

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  11. Re:Ob. by darkitecture · · Score: 4, Funny

    Nihon deha, kuruma ga anata wo untensuru! (i know, its bad :p)

    I guess you were trying to make a Soviet Russia joke? "In Japan, car drives you", maybe? I guess it loses its funny when it's not relevant to the article, is translated into another language and written in romaji.

  12. Re:inaccurate data by BoRegardless · · Score: 2, Informative

    inaccurate data: "electric cars do not get great gas mileage at highway speeds because of the power required to keep the car at 60+mph."

    I hate to see comments like this. If you have an electric car, there is no gas, and hence, no "gas mileage". This type of comment permeates the media and contributes to the drivel that totally mushes up the real facts of what goes on in engineering and science.

    By 2010-2012, I predict the newer faster charging and less expensive batteries being tested now will give us an all electric or hybrid which is charged up at night on reduced rate power off the grid, and which can run 200+ miles before a recharge, or the onboard gas/diesel needs to come on.

    Custom shops in the Los Angeles area will mod your Prius or Highlander hybrid today with double the amount of batteries or more, so you can go most of the day on batteries. The ONLY THING REQUIRED IS DOLLARS. It is doable and effective today. It is not yet cost effective or Toyota would be doing it now for retail sales. The minute the battery cost drops, Toyota will easily supply the extra capacity.

  13. Re:Pulse and Glide Says it All, Average Speed 26 M by gogojcp · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Huh? I never do this, but +5 informative?

    If you think US roads are poorly designed, please come to Japan and spend some time driving. These people in the article must spend all their time on farm roads during off hours. Japanese roads are by for the worst anywhere for cars. (and I have driven on four continents.) Nothing but stoplights, traffic and people. The stoplights are never synchronized and going anywhere in Japan by car painful by US standards. Why do you think they developed the hybrids in the first place? --- because of all the stop and go driving.

    two) How exactly does sprawl help protect against nuclear terrorism? Maybe you mean low density sprawl, but only killing 10,000 people per square kilometer is hardly protection! especially since the terrorist would simply bomb the high density bits.

    three) If low density development is encouraged, mass transit and bicycles become impractical, highways become necessary for most travel, and you end up with LA. have you ever driven in LA?

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  14. it's not unique to the Japanese by cwerdna · · Score: 2, Informative

    These former record holders in the US achieved ~110 mpg in a Prius.
    http://hybridcars.about.com/od/news/a/100mpgrecord .htm
    http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05220/550484.stm

    One of them achieves 59 (US) mpg in a non-hybrid 2005 Honda Accord by adopting crazy hypermiling techniques. See http://hybridfest.com/MotherJones.htm.

  15. Re:aerodynamics and rolling friction, not engine t by ksheff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Reducing weight would help a lot. I seem to recall reading on fueleconomy.gov that if all the current vehicles kept their drivetrain technology but had the same vehicle weight as the average car in the late 1980s, the US fleet fuel economy would go up by about 33%.

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  16. Re:inaccurate data by hankwang · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... batteries being tested now will give us an all electric or hybrid which is charged up at night on reduced rate power off the grid, and which can run 200+ miles before a recharge

    I was going to write that the grid can't handle any significant fraction of the population doing that, but actually, it can. Assume that a typical commuter does 20 miles/day in an electric car that otherwise (in weight and aerodynamics) is comparable to a 60 mpg car. Energy-wise you gain a factor 2 since the charging/discharging cycle is more efficient than burning fuel. With these assumptions, it means you would consume just about 5 kWh per day during off-peak hours, which is actually quite realistic.

    --
    Avantslash: low-bandwidth mobile slashdot.
  17. Re:US fuel efficiency figures seem incredibly poor by tengwar · · Score: 2, Informative

    The US gallon is only 80% of the imperial gallon - it's not clear which units they are using. FWIW, I've got 47mpg (imperial) over 25000 miles in my Jaguar X-Type diesel without doing more than roughly keep to the speed limits, so I'm not overly impressed whichever units are in use.

  18. Re:aerodynamics and rolling friction, not engine t by RzUpAnmsCwrds · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you completely switched off the hybrid system in a Prius


    Do note that this is entirely impossible. The Prius transmission is the hybrid system. It neither resembles nor behaves like a conventional transmission - it is far more mechanically simple and has far more electronic control.

    Note that the Prius hybrid system also replaces the starter and the alternator as well, and (from the 2004 model onwards) also runs the air conditioning.

    The overwhelming factors for highway mileage are aerodynamics and rolling friction (tires, bearings, drivetrain components.)


    Yes, although engine efficency also plays a big part. The Prius uses a small engine running on the more efficent Atkinson/Miller cycle. The 72HP 1NZ-FXE in the Prius would be undersized for a car of its size, but it's fine with the electric assist.

  19. Re:US fuel efficiency figures seem incredibly poor by Charcharodon · · Score: 4, Informative
    :) With exchange rate it's more like $2.00 a liter. Ouch! I can tell you why it's such a big deal in the US, all those little cars that you all drive here in the UK, well they don't exist in the US. The few little cars that are available are all petrol rather than diesel and are usually tuned for performance rather than fuel efficiency. The reason for that is usually kids are the ones buying them, so rarely do they go for the eco-box models. So pretty much the best thing you are going to find is something in the low 40's until you you make the jump to hybrid. That may be changing here soon once the govenment gets done arguing over the polution standards for diesels. Right now they are only allowed in trucks.

    And yes gasoline is so cheap for the most part that we can and do by bigger cars that do poor mpg. They sell gas at 25-30p a liter and 9p of that is road tax, so we don't have the extra payments like you do. At that price it just doesn't make much of a dent in the pocket book even when you have to commute more than 30 miles each direction everyday. The other thing we have is wide roads, lot's of parking, and big garages (you can actually get a full sized SUV into most and have the people on both sides of the vehicle and be able to get out fairly easy). The newer houses typically have room for 3 vehicles and easily fit 2 SUVs and a car. (Just to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, a Landrover Defender 110 station wagon is what I mean by an SUV.) Those things seems to have a bigger damper on large vehicle sales here in the UK than the price of gas. I cannot get my "tiny", a behemoth by British standards, regular cab Toyota Tacoma (like a hi-lux but bigger) through the door of my garage, and have to park it in the street. Of course as you know most houses in town don't even have garages. People in the states regularly drive pick-up trucks large enough to haul around the typical British car in the back and rarely ever have a problem finding an easy spot to park in.

    Hope that puts things in perspective for you. Of course my dreams of buying a new Tacoma or an FJ cruiser, both larger than I have now, are on the back burner, so I have been eye-balling one of the new Mini's. (The sad thing is it won't fit in my garage either.) It get's a respectable 35-40 mpg better than the 20 I get with the Tacoma. Of course the one I want is the S model rather the eco model. :)

  20. Re:Speaking of Prius: All-Electric Versions... by Zobeid · · Score: 4, Informative

    Some people have converted the Prius to a plug-in hybrid vehicle (PHEV) and there's at least one company doing the conversions commercially. It does not become 100% electric, but it does allow you to plug into a wall socket and charge up the battery, then drive some distance (maybe 40 miles) on the battery power before the gasoline engine ever fires up. If you don't drive more than 40 miles in a day -- which would cover most days for me -- then you don't use gasoline. Yet, if you need to take a long trip, you can do that too.

    Toyota have announced they want to build a PHEV, but they haven't said when or shown any more information about it. General Motors have shown the Chevy Volt "concept car" which is a PHEV, and they want to put it into production by about 2010-2012 depending on how batteries develop.

    The winners in fuel efficiency are always the pure battery-electric vehicles like the Tesla Roadster; it's rated 135 MPG equivalent efficiency on the EPA highway cycle, no funky "hypermiling" techniques required. First deliveries to customers scheduled for late this year. :)

  21. mechanically simpler by cwerdna · · Score: 2, Informative

    The Prius' CVT seems to be mechanically simpler than a conventional automatic transmission. AFAIK there are no clutch plates, no torque converter and only 1 planetary gearset. I took some pictures of FWD and RWD automatic transmissions and put them up at http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=30245&st= 0&p=403617&#entry403617. You can look at what the Prius' CVT/PSD (power split device) look like a little further down and at http://privatenrg.com/#Planetary_Gear. http://eahart.com/prius/psd/ has some more info and a simulator.

    A Prius doesn't have an alternator, the inverter works to charge the 12V aux/accessory battery. It doesn't have a starter either, MG1 acts as the starter.

  22. despite his post being labeled a troll, he's right by cwerdna · · Score: 2, Informative

    Per http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/mpg/fetrends/420s0600 3.htm, the average curb weight of 2006 model year vehicles sold in the US was 4142 lbs. 50% of them were "light trucks" which includes SUVs, minivans, pickups and some vans.

    There are an insane # of solo and/or soccer mom driven 5000+ lb. SUVs such as Ford Expeditions, Chevy Suburbans, Yukons, Tahoes and Lincoln Navigators. Hummer H2s are even worse w/ 6400 lb. curb weight. They're exempt from even being TESTED for mileage and don't even count against GM's CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy Numbers) per http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/which_tested.shtml because they have over 8500 lb. GVWR.

    They're gross polluters and a danger to other drivers.