Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Is DVORAK Gaining Traction Among Coders?

Posted by ryuzaki0 on from the slow-news-day dept.

coderpath asks: "At a recent Seattle Ruby Brigade hack night someone asked how many people used the DVORAK keyboard layout. Out of 9 people, 7 used DVORAK and only 2 were using QWERTY. I personally made the switch last Christmas, after 25 years of typing with QWERTY. What do you use? Have you switched to DVORAK? Have you been wanting to make the switch? Has anyone else noticed an increase in adoption of DVORAK lately?"

19 of 559 comments (clear)

  1. Vim by FromWithin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Always wanted to try the Dvorak layout, but I've become a slave to the Vim and that sort of messes things up for me...

    1. Re:Vim by Aladrin · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's not just Vim, but everything else I do as well. It's hard to imagine going back to being careful where the keys are... I've had plenty of times that I just kept on typing while I was looking at my boss (he was talking) or I got something in my eye and just needed to finish a sentence that was in my head.

      On top of that, I've -never- seen a Dvorak keyboard. I'm sure I could find some online if I looked, but I'm -very- happy with the feel of my current keyboard (I own 2 and a wireless version of it now) and don't look forward to trying to find a Dvorak layout one that I like.

      There's still just too many reasons not to switch, and only 1 to switch: It's supposedly quicker. (Last I heard, it actually wasn't enough quicker to care.)

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Vim by zsau · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's not just Vim, but everything else I do as well. It's hard to imagine going back to being careful where the keys are... I've had plenty of times that I just kept on typing while I was looking at my boss (he was talking) or I got something in my eye and just needed to finish a sentence that was in my head.

      I was like that before I switched. I'm like that after I switched. I wasn't like that for about a month in between. And I'm better at vi for it, too.

      On top of that, I've -never- seen a Dvorak keyboard.

      Fancy that, neither have I. You (i.e. I) touchtype dvorak. The only value you'll ever get out of looking at the keyboard is because it's fun to look at yourself typing on a keyboard with the keys marked wrong, and you can't do that with a dvorak keyboard.

      There's still just too many reasons not to switch, and only 1 to switch: It's supposedly quicker.

      Most reasons against switching are false; about the only one worth listening to is that lots of people use your computer and/or you use lots of computers. A very good reason, certainly, but still only one.

      And the purported benefit of dvorak is that it's more ergonomic. This results in it being a little faster, but it's not the point. That's why if you do want to buy a dvorak keyboard, you'll find that almost none of them have the standard physical arrangement. But I do certainly notice the benefits of dvorak with my regular-format keyboards.

      --
      Look out!
    3. Re:Vim by scribblej · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm 31, I've been typing since I got my first Commodore-64 in about 1980, and I am in the same boat as you; I am a ridiculously fast two-finger touch-typist. Now, I don't literally use two fingers; I actually type with all my fingers (although the pinkie fingers get very little use).

      People who are touch-typists often are impressed with my typing speed. Everyone assumes I am a touch-typist. Then I invite them to watch my hands when I type.

      I will never forget my typing class in high school; I could type faster than the instructor, but he would have to make me down because I didn't do it the right way.

  2. If only the cost was less... by Tokimasa · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At one point, I went out looking for a DVORAK keyboard, starting at my local computer shop and expanding to office supply stores and even Wal*Mart, just to see if anyone had one and if not, how much it would be to order one. After prices over $200, I checked online and found the cheapest, most basic, DVORAK keyboard at about $100 + shipping and taxes.

    I know I could get a cheap QWERTY and rearrange the keys. But (at least from the pictures I've seen), wouldn't be a true DVORAK layout. If I could cheaply obtain or emulate a DVORAK layout, I would try it. But right now, I have a laptop, so I would only use it when I'm at my desk and I would need to purchase one first. The idea of switching back and forth day after day and the cost just doesn't help...

    --
    --Thomas J. Owens
    1. Re:If only the cost was less... by aslate · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I gave Dvorak a good 1 year trial and frankly found it made no real difference at all.

      I've got one of those IBM spring-loaded keyboard that my mum got from work with an old PC, so i could re-arrange the key caps (not even the physical keys, but the cap with the letters on) to Dvorak. I even changed the Qwerty keyboards at school to the Dvorak settings (which should help my learning as i can't do hunt-and-peck at the keys). And never noticed anything useful.

      Now it may have been in part that i would every-so-often have to use a Qwerty layout (such as a friend's keyboard and hence wouldn't change it), but Dvorak made fuck all different to any typing skills, sticking to Qwerty is so much easier...

      I also used the Dvorak switch to learn to type properly (when i use Qwerty i only use one finger on my right hand, fucked up, but it works as a typing style and is damned quick no matter what anyone says). So from that i should have learned to type faster, because not only was i using Dvorak, but typing in the proper style (4 fingers on home keys and such). But it never helped my typing speed.

      Finally, no-one should spend that much on a keyboard. We've got 3 IBM spring-loaded keyboards probably worth a good £50+ each, but they're worth so much more to keep any type on compared to any new keyboard :p

    2. Re:If only the cost was less... by Vorlath · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You don't need to buy a keyboard especially for dvorak. I buy a keyboard where all the keys are the exact same shape (watch the surface angle). They take a little bit more hunting down (like going to 2 or 3 local stores instead of 1). Then just rearrange the keys and you're done. I've never met a keyboard where you couldn't pop the keys out. $15 bucks and you're done. And we're talking Canadian money here.

      I'm a coder and I will NEVER use qwerty again if I have a choice. Plus, no one will mess with my computer. It's better than a password. Typing is SOOOO much easier on Dvorak. I'd been using qwerty for over 10 years and I could not type worth sh*t. I still can't type fast, but I can touch type and I can do over 50 wpm in code-wise with Dvorak. 45 to 80 in regular text mode. There's always a word here and there that slows me down (bursts of speed with the odd slow word). Not because of the keyboard. Just because I don't like typing. So I went from 25 wpm to 50wpm and in text mode and if I'm really into it, I can reach over 100wpm. In qwerty, the best I could do is 40wpm (yes, I was a sad sight). So for me, it's been a win-win scenario. I couldn't get any worse at qwerty than I was, so it was never an issue. I still type at the same 25wpm speed on qwerty.

      Oddly enough, even at 25wpm I'm still the fastest coder I've ever seen. So if you think the keyboard makes a difference in coding speed, you're 100% wrong. If you switch to Dvorak, do it because it's easier and more comfortable. You hardly have to move your fingers. Mostly, you just push down where they're at. But for a coder, speed and wpm don't mean a thing. Typing takes less than 1% of the total work. The typing stage is after everything has already been decided. You're just plugging in details at this point and going through the motions. I'll never understand people who sit at a computer to program software. The computer just slows me down. I'd get bored programming in front of a computer. The funny thing is real programmers understand this implicitly like I'm stating the obvious, yet it seems so nonsensical to debutants.

  3. dvorak is useless by Zheng+Yi+Quan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I always wanted to switch, but coding requires so much punctuation that DVORAK doesn't help. Plus it doesn't work with vi.

  4. My sample by Jerf · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Well, in my sample size of one, 100% of users have switched. Therefore, clearly, there's nowhere to go but down.

    Addressing some myths:
    • It's probably not any faster, but it is much more comfortable. There's no scientific evidence whatsoever about whether it affects carpal tunnel, neither for nor against, so you're on your own.
    • You don't need a special keyboard, just the willingness to actually learn to touchtype. Even if you don't switch to Dvorak, you really ought to learn to touchtype anyhow.
    • Code complaints vary from language to language. [] and /= may switch, but I actually took the time to do a character count in my Perl code (what I work in professionally) and it turned out they were as close to identical as to make no difference. You can make your own custom layout to move those back, but the further away from a standard layout you get, the more nervous I am. (I did end up remapping Caps Lock to Backspace, which has been nice, and that's not special to Dvorak. The key is to unmap the normal Backspace key; you'll learn in nothing flat.) Some languages may suffer more, some may even come out ahead.
    • You don't lose QWERTY per se, but I find there is a "reloading" period of five or ten minutes before I can really crank along again. If you're just using the keyboard briefly this can look like you'e lost QWERTY; I think this is the kernel of truth behind the myth.
  5. Dvorak is fun! by pizzach · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have been using Dvorak for years. It has been an interesting mental exercise...but I would not say it is more productive. It's just different.

    Some things you should consider before taking the plunge:
    • Dvorak seems to be worse for Japanese. There a lot of words only using one hand. Not to mention it's a pain setting the default layout for Japanese to Dvorak on some OSs.
    • VIM isn't as much fun in Dvorak when you have to switch randomly to QWERTY. For one thing, ":wq" is all done with on one hand.
    • The curly braces feel too far in Dvorak when coding
    • You will need to keep your qwerty skill up. Especially during the learning period.

    I also had some unforeseen side-effects occur using Dvorak. When I had first started becoming proficient in it, my QWERTY skill practically disappeared from lack of use. When I had gotten my first web design job, my boss thought I was a computer newbie at first because I was typing so slow and with so little confidence. I didn't want to go mucking changing his keyboard layout so I was stuck between a rock and a hard place. Thank God keyboards have the QWERTY letters on them. (I never thought I would say that.)

    On the other hand, my computer is an impenetrable fortress of solitude nowadays. I run a desktop with no icons, Dvorak keyboard layout, Left handed mouse setup, all on top of Japanese Linux. You just try and touch my computer. I recommend you use a 6 foot stick.

    To wrap up, I want to say you're a sissy if you actually buy a Dvorak keyboard or dare rearrange the keys. Thank you.

    --
    Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
    1. Re:Dvorak is fun! by Brandybuck · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Many years ago I knew a couple of medical transcriptionists. These are people who type 120 WPM for hours at a time. Many actually speed up their audio playback so they can type faster. I talked with one about DVORAK, and she said those in her profession that used DVORAK weren't any faster than the QWERTY users. My high school typing teacher decades back used to switch between QWERTY and DVORAK typewriters at a moments notice. She wasn't any faster on one than another.

      My conclusion is that much of the DVORAK claims are wishful myth.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
  6. I use Dvorak but by rolfwind · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm not a gamer. I like it better than Qwerty, my wrists don't hurt anymore. However, I used to touch type Qwerty, now I can't. This isn't a big deal but would someone point me if a USB device exists that could be plug in between the keyboard and the computer that could translate qwerty signals into dvorak ones? I would find this helpful on computers other than my own.

    If you want to learn Dvorak, like a foreign language I would suggest to plunge in and stop using qwerty. Your muscle memory needs to get accustomed to the new system and changing in between is not helpful. I initially tried learning dvorak by taking online lessons in small doses. After six months, I wasn't getting anywhere. I switch cold turkey one weekend, and by Monday morning, was a touch typist again (I spent roughly 6 hours on online lessons that weekend and did all my other computer stuff in Dvorak).

    There are potentially better layouts designed recently but I want to ask anyone with experience with the "Neo" Tastatur/Layout - is it better in your experience?

    Neo Layout:
    (German - has useful visual comparison to QWERTY, DVORAK, and other layouts)
    http://pebbles.schattenlauf.de/layout.php

    If you never have heard of it:
    English:
    http://pebbles.schattenlauf.de/layout/index_us.htm l

  7. Did and went back by pescadero · · Score: 2, Interesting

    A few years ago I went full-blown DVORAK for a few months. I really liked it, but I ended up switching back to QWERTY. Here are the two problems I had:

    1) Shortcut keys (control-z, control-x, control-c, etc..) are all over the freaking place in DVORAK.

    (If there was some way to do DVORAK for normal typing and switch back to QWERTY when control/alt/command are held down, then that would probably be cool. I don't know of any way to do that though)

    2) Other people. If I've been typing DVORAK for weeks, and I try to use someone's QWERTY computer, I turn into a retarded monkey. Similarly, anyone that tries to use my computer turns into a retarded monkey.

    But if a wide-spread adoption of DVORAK ever breaks out, I am willing and ready!

  8. An interesting connection between OS and keyboard by pizzach · · Score: 3, Interesting

    My home computer is a Macintosh. I use Windows computers at school. My Macintosh has been setup to use Dvorak for a while. I find it interesting that my fingers trip if I try to type on a Mac in QWERTY or a PC in Dvorak. Something about the OS theme makes my muscle memory choose one or the other like the machines have nothing in common.

    --
    Once you start despising the jerks, you become one.
  9. Re:DVORAK -- just for fanatics by Matthew+Weigel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is no amount of time I could spend training myself in QWERTY that would keep it from hurting my hands and wrists.

    --
    --Matthew
  10. How to learn. re: If only the cost was less... by rta · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Wow, i didn't think anyone used Dvorak anymore.  I've been using it for years and i agree with other people here that it's not particularly great for coding.  The right hand pinky gets nearly as much of a workout in Dvorak as it does in QWERTY.

    Now, as to how to learn it.  The way i did it was to grab an image of the layout off of the web and i edited it to separate the keys into three groups by column:
    The left-most group was everything under keys 1 - 4, the middle column the things that were under 5 and 6 and the right-most group everything else.  Then i put the image up on the screen in a corner and referred to it whenever i needed to hit a key and i didn't know where it was.   I found the spliting it up made it much easier to visualize which finger i should be using for each key since all of the fingers (except for the index fingers and the right pinky stay in their own columns.   Hmm... if i had to do it over maybe i would further separate the extra right pinky cluster.

    The first two or three days... it was pretty darned painful, but it got better quickly after that.  (Note, i didn't touch type in Qwerty (and still don't)).

    To clarify what i meant about the keyboard layout... my picture looked something like what's below (but i've added my newly devised separation for the area where the right pinky reaches out to the right from its own column):

    1 2 3 4    5 6    7 8 9 0   [ ]
      ' , . p    y f    g c r l   / = \
       a o e u    i d    h t n s   -
        ; q j k    x b    m w v z

    Note: if you have a MS Natural keyboard or similar you'll have to hit the 6 with your left index finger, but c'est la vie.

    check out this guy's blog entry for a picture one might modify.
    http://www.leeholmes.com/blog/CommentView ,guid,5b057212-590e-4ed4-bf53-3b971d3ba60d.aspx

    (hmm... maybe i should copyright and or trademark this split keyboard image idea :-) ) 

  11. Success story by MattskEE · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have been typing in Dvorak for about 2 years now. Before I managed to fully make the plunge, I made 2 attempts that I chickened out from after a few days.

    It was a difficult transition, but made easier by doing it during summer break from school. It was about 2 weeks before I could type comfortably, and probably 2 months before my speed was up to my previous QWERTY speed.

    Here are the good things about switching. It forced me to learn touch typing, which has lead to an increase in typing speed and ease, simply because I never look at the keyboard anymore. Your fingers don't have to move as far from their baseline position as much, and you tend to alternate between right and left hand much more, which is much more comfortable on the fingers. Having the _- key so close at hand has been very handy.

    Here are the bad things about the switch. I technically could have learned touch typing on QWERTY and achieved a similar speed increase. The windows computers in the computer lab I frequent have the settings locked down so I cannot change the keyboard layout, though I solve this by using the linux computers at almost all times. The 'c' and 'v' are less conveniently placed for coping and pasting. Typing on other peoples computers, which I must do on occasion results in a few minutes of awkwardness while I readjust. It is harder to type one-handed since I use a mapped keyboard layout, and must therefore remember the key locations rather than just looking.

    Ultimately I am glad that I made the switch. There are some benefits to my typing abilities, and the inconveniences are not too great. I also take a certain amount of pride in it, like being an early adopter of metric units in a time when everyone is still using imperial.

  12. Dvorak ergonomics statistics by KlaymenDK · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And the purported benefit of dvorak is that it's more ergonomic. This results in it being a little faster, but it's not the point. That's why if you do want to buy a dvorak keyboard, you'll find that almost none of them have the standard physical arrangement. But I do certainly notice the benefits of dvorak with my regular-format keyboards. Here's a fun comparison: Enter some text (using any layout), and have stats shown for Dvorak and qwerty. I have a page about Dvorak, and the distribution of characters on that page come out thusly:
    • Home row -- Dvorak: 66%, Qwerty: 32%
    • Top row -- Dvorak: 24%, Qwernty: 49%
    • Finger movement (arguably less scientifically 'hard' piece of data) -- Dvorak: 367m, Qwerty: 602m

    In other words, Dvorak gets you the same result with 39% less effort.
    --
    "Good news, everyone!"
  13. speed or health? by beaverfever · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "And the purported benefit of dvorak is that it's more ergonomic. This results in it being a little faster, but it's not the point."

    I seem to recall that the point of dvorak was that it was faster, then that claim was subsequently discredited with force. When did an ergonomic benefit become its selling point? Has this claim of a physical health benefit been tested?

    --
    RTFM; please, I beg you.