Help Make Firefox On Mac Suck Less

bluephone writes "Colin Barrett, one of the new Mac geniuses, and an Adium developer, has posted an entry on his blog offering an open call to all Mac users of Firefox asking them, 'What sucks about Firefox on the Mac?' He says he already knows about and is trying to solve such things as: 'Native Form Widgets (currently scheduled for Firefox 3), Keychain Integration, Firefox should have a Unified toolbar (not completely hopeless, it turns out), Performance...', but he wants to hear what else Mac users want from Firefox. So please, if you're a user of Macs and the interwebs, then RTFA, unclog your tubes, and send him your ideas."

Comments

Camino

[daveschroeder]

Isn't this what Camino is for? Like, the very reason for its existence?

I.e., taking the Mozilla/Gecko codebase, and making a lean, fast browser with Mac widgets, tight Mac OS X integration, Keychain support, and so on?

I understand the goal of trying to get more Mac-specific functionality into Firefox, but with a fundamentally cross-platform browser, inasmuch as it goes, it's been harder to integrate platform-specific features and functionality into Firefox proper. That's the reason Camino was born: to be a more agile project that is focused on making such a browser for Mac OS X using Mozilla/Gecko. For folks who don't need specific Firefox functionality or Firefox extensions, Camino is already the answer.

Re:Camino

[kadat]

Although I'm not a Mac user myself and can't say anything in the matter of usability on Mac OS, I use Firefox on both Windows and Linux mainly because of its extensions as they provide great functionality. Firefox without the plugins is not Firefox anymore, they're one of its most significant features.

Re:Camino

[GundamFan]

This is exactly why I love Firefox, no mater what OS I am currently using on a box, I have access to a browser I know how to use. In this way projects like Firefox and OO.org may contribute to the end of desktop OS monopolies.

Re:Camino

[daveschroeder]

Uh, Camino is not ghetto. Many people who work on it are the same people who also work on Firefox. The lead Camino developers already work for the Mozilla Foundation. And since its purpose is to take the preexisting Mozilla/Gecko codebase and simply add the Mac OS X-specific functionality, I can't see any logic in your answer: most of what makes up Camino is what you're already using in Firefox.

And since when do we denigrate open source software as "ghetto" if everyone on the project isn't paid (which is frankly the same as a lot of the work product that goes into Firefox)? How did this even get modded up? Have you ever even used Camino?

Re:Camino

[Timesprout]

It's funny how round here choice is a good thing until it comes to Firefox. Then it's a case of 'but its the bestest browser in the multiverse, why would you want to use anything else?'. Firefox is not the be all and end all of browsers. Some people like to have alternatives.

Re:Camino

[encoderer]

Ok... have you ever actually ran into a browser that you DON'T know how to use? Aren't they basically all the same?

Re:Camino

[Phisbut]

Ok... have you ever actually ran into a browser that you DON'T know how to use? Aren't they basically all the same?

They're all the same, except for what differentiate them. When you're used to keyboard shortcuts and added features that increase your productivity, using a browser that doesn't have them, even though it's still a browser and can still display web pages, will be a much slower and more frustrating experience.

I use Firefox constantly. I love the Ctrl+L shortcut that gives focus to the address bar. I love how I can simply type "slashdot" then hit Ctrl+Shift+Enter to have it turned into "http://www.slashdot.org". I love keyword bookmarks too. I know the Google search bar is right there, I haven't found the keyboard shortcut to access it though, but it doesn't matter because of keyword bookmarks. I wanna google the word "Safari"? Ctrl+L gg safari Enter. I wanna see the Wikipedia entry on Safari? Ctrl+L wiki safari Enter. I wanna see the definition of the word "Safari"? Ctrl+L dict safari Enter.

While the main functionality of all browsers is the same, it's those little added features that make a cross-platform browser even more enjoyable.

Re:Camino

[constantnormal]

mod the parent posting up!

Mr Schroeder is EXACTLY correct -- Camino uses the same Gecko core as Firefox, but eschews the Firefox plugin madness in favor of OS X integration, supporting the OS X Services menu, Keychain, and all the other things that tie an OS X application into the body of OS X.

If a person wants to use the same browser across Windows, OS X, and Linux -- or has the desire to customize the hell out of it via plugins, then Firefox is the way to go. If a person wants a lean browser that takes advantage of the feature-rich environment of OS X, then Camino is the right answer.

But if a person wants a lean, fully-integrated-with-OSX browser that looks and behaves like Firefox and supports a zoo of customizing plugins, they're in a world of hurt, as they are looking for the same thing as those seeking a rich, sugary, calorie-laden diet that they can lose weight with.

The whole notion of Firefox is to make the best cross-platform browser possible. By definition, this means not tying it to the feature set of any particular platform. However, to permit users to tailor their own favorite features into Firefox, they have an excellent plugin system of extensions.

The idea of Camino is to take the excellent Gecko core from Firefox, and tie it into a particular feature-rich environment (i.e., OS X), making it as fast and powerful as possible. You don't do that by allowing the user to load it down with a bunch of plugins.

The problem posed by the topic has already been solved. If the Firefox developers want to make it better for OS X users, they should ask the Camino developers (metaphorically across the aisle) what they would like to see changed in Firefox to make Camino development better. Camino IS the end result of optimizing Firefox for OS X.

Re:Camino

[Clock Nova]

Why don't the just add in the plugin architecture to Camino and let the users decide whether or not they want to "load it down" with extensions. Seriously. There's no logic in their decision at all.

Re:Camino

[woadlined]

"Camino uses the same Gecko core as Firefox, but eschews the Firefox plugin madness in favor of OS X integration, supporting the OS X Services menu, Keychain, and all the other things that tie an OS X application into the body of OS X."

FF is meant to be customizable. If you want to use a plugin, you use it. If you don't - brace yourself - you don't have to. No one is twisting your arm.

The OS X environment - everything about it - is about removing customization from the picture. The Mac folks are the ones who decide what features are best, most useful, most necessary. Their vision of what the environment should be is the one that you must accept as best.

Want to do something else with your computer? Forget it. Why would you want to? If the Mac folks haven't envisioned it, it's worthless. No enhancements are necessary, or will be tolerated.

Want to use a little feature on your browser? What are you - a Heathen?

Re:Camino

[Oktober Sunset]

It's not so much being able to use a browser, it's more to do with using a browser without being consumed by an all encompassing rage, which causes you to scream curses upon the soul of whoever designed the interface.

Re:Camino

[Phisbut]

I love how I can simply type "slashdot" then hit Enter to have it turned into "http://www.slashdot.org" in opera.

I haven't used Opera in a while. Tell me, is that because www.slashdot.org is in your bookmarks and it automatically adds the right tld for single-word URLs, or is it because Opera appends ".com" every time, and slashdot.com redirects to slashdot.org? If slashdot.com was a different site than slashdot.org, would you still get to the right page every time? Does Opera have some sort of magical I-can-read-your-mind feature?

Re:Camino

[jZnat]

If it makes you feel any better, Firefox doesn't integrate with anything on any of its platforms. On Windows, it does its own thing usually (although it follows the UI guidelines for Windows pretty well). On Mac OS X, it doesn't integrate at all with the dozens of services that would be very useful for a web browser. On Linux/BSD/etc., it hardly integrates with GNOME (similar to how it "integrates" with Windows, just using the graphical toolkit and UI guidelines doesn't count as integration), and when it comes to KDE, you might as well use Konqueror because Firefox is Peter Griffin in the Million Man March.

Re:Camino

[Blakey Rat]

Isn't this post off-topic?

The topic is how to improve Firefox on OS X, not "hey let's talk about Camino, which is not Firefox!" Not that moderators ever mod anything off-topic around here...

In any case, the biggest problem with Firefox is that the spell-checker doesn't integrate with the OS X spell-checker. I'm sick of every damned application using its own spell-checker on an OS with one built-in. Use the built-in one! Duh! I can't count the number of dictionaries I've had to add my last name to, on the same machine.

Nice idea...

[Rufty]

Any chance of something like this for Thunderbird?

Cocoa Gestures

[mike2R]

Just to add that the one thing that lets me function in Camino (or Safari) at all, is Cocoa Gestures, although if anyone can tell how to tie this into "top of page" and "bottom of page" actions I'd be a happy man.

Re:FF&OO

[Anonymous Coward]

Since NeoOffice feels like running Vista on a Windows 3.1-old machine, that would be so much better!

Re:Camino lacks foxmarks!

[daveschroeder]

Probably why I said:

For folks who don't need specific Firefox functionality or Firefox extensions, Camino is already the answer.

I understand that for many, the lack of Firefox extensions is a killer. But, for other groups of people, it's not.

Sure, I've got one

[pongo000]

Fix the damn file associations dialog so that you can not only add file associations and actions from the GUI (rather than digging down into an .rdf file), but that files of the same type open consistently without constantly having to deal with the "open with" dialog.

Oh, wait...same problem on Linux too! Never mind...

Re:Huh?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I see Firefox crash on my Mac a lot. Sometimes it just stalls and won't do any thing for a minute. For a long time, toggling FlashBlock on a site would crash the Mac. Firefox on the Mac doesn't allow me to rearrange bookmarks in folders on the bookmarks bar like the Windows version. I have to go to "manage bookmarks", which is a clumsy little program.

I like using Firefox and Thunderbird simply because I can just transfer my profile to another platform and back. I just did that last week when I moved my Thunderbird emails to my Windows notebook for an expo, and then back to my Mac tower when I returned. It's sometimes a bit tedious, but it only takes me five to ten minutes to do that each way

Re:Huh?

[mike2R]

My dislike of FF on the Mac (I use it exclusively on Windows - I spend my time about 50/50 Mac/Windows) comes down more to look and feel than functionality.

It feels odd not to have normal Mac widgets - I'm not usually fussed by things like that, but for some reason it bothers me in FF.

The more important thing is that it just feels clunky - I'm using an old eMac G4 700 which may not be helping - but, compared to Safari or Camino, Firefox feels slow. Little things, like I can't select a bookmark from while a page is loading, and the application just feels generally less responsive than either Camino or Safari.

PDF integration anyone?

[cbc1920]

I can't believe this hasn't been harped on before. Why can't I open a PDF in my browser window? I'm on a Intel Mac and as far as I know there is no way to do this. Macs have so much built in that already uses the pdf format- why is this so difficult?

Re:PDF integration anyone?

[200_success]

Hear, hear! Integration with PDF Kit would be awesome. Viewing PDFs in Safari is so quick and easy, since it's natively supported, with no need to launch any plugins or external applications. Not only do PDFs render in the browser window, File -> Save and File -> Print work too! Firefox should have the same native support for PDFs on Macs.

Camino NOT a Firefox replacement

[HomerJ]

There's a ton of people complaining "Yeah, all this is already done, It's Camino!"

Listen, Camino isn't a Firefox replacement. The reason I, and probably the majority of others, use Firefox is the large amount of great extensions. Ad Black, Flashblock, Cookiesafe, etc. Camino by rule will never support these. That's why Camino will never be a replacement for Firefox.

I'm not saying Camino SHOULD change to support them. They have a project going, and what they are setting out to do, they do well. But it's never going to replace Firefox on OSX.

Re:Here's a few (more)

[MachineShedFred]

Recognize when someone changes the network location, and adjust proxy settings accordingly.

This bugs the crap out of me, and is the primary reason why Firefox isn't used on my MacBook Pro.

Re:FF&OO

[JonJ]

Holy cown Batman! X11 is like emulation? Seriously, are all Mac users this stupid? There's no standard on the Mac either. Garageband, iTunes, iMovie, whatever. They look slightly different, and behaves slightly different. Not to mention Final Cut, Aperture, and the mess of other applications.

Re:Well...

[DurendalMac]

In addition to that, less beachballing, please. Firefox hangs more often than Safari, which is one of the reasons that I don't use it very often.