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Scientists Claim Major Leap in Engine Design

An anonymous reader writes "Purdue researchers say they have made a major advance in the design of the internal combustion engine, one that could seriously boost fuel efficiency and cut emissions. A key portion involves building intake and exhaust valves that are no longer driven by mechanisms connected to the pistons, a departure from the way car engines have worked since they were commercialized more than a century ago. 'The concept, known as variable valve actuation, would enable significant improvements in conventional gasoline and diesel engines used in cars and trucks and for applications such as generators, he said. The technique also enables the introduction of an advanced method called homogeneous charge compression ignition, or HCCI, which would allow the United States to drastically reduce its dependence on foreign oil and the production of harmful exhaust emissions. The homogeneous charge compression ignition technique would make it possible to improve the efficiency of gasoline engines by 15 percent to 20 percent, making them as efficient as diesel engines while nearly eliminating smog-generating nitrogen oxides, Shaver said.'"

119 of 775 comments (clear)

  1. What will they do with this efficiency, though? by r_jensen11 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Are they going to do anything useful, like, say, actually boost milage? Or are they going to continue what they've been doing and just increase horsepower and torque?

    1. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by hey! · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, the scientists think the companies will use this to boost mileage.

      Reminds me of a play we had to read in 1960s grammar school about nuclear war. Big scary Atom Bomb threatens everybody, but he is driven away by Atoms for Peace (the script called for a costume kind of like lady liberty, complete with torch, except white instead of green). You see Science was bringing us limitless power, and that was going to eliminate poverty. Since nobody was poor, nobody had a reason to fight.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    2. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by smilindog2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Of course, better efficiency just means more people before we strip the planet of resources. Anyway, I don't want a more efficient engine. I want a smaller, more powerful one, so I can buy a plug-in-hybrid and seriously reduce oil dependence. We need more room and weight for the batteries, not a more complex, bigger more efficient engine. If I can do most of my driving around town off the grid, it wont matter much if I get 20 MPG or 50 for the occasional road-trip. With 9KWH A123 Systems battery, an 80HP light engine (rotary? how about something like http://www.regtech.com/), I can do a lot more than the 20% reduction these guys promise.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    3. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by sasdrtx · · Score: 2, Funny

      Increasing horsepower and torque is very useful... makes passing a slowpoke driving a Prissius quicker.

      --
      Most people don't even think inside the box.
    4. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by lgw · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't want a more efficient engine. I want a smaller, more powerful one Please tell me you don't have "engineer" in your job title! Leave me some faith in humanity.
      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    5. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by mmontour · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The only reason not to use breeder reactors is that they (gasp) produce weapons-grade waste. Not necessarily. U238 + n = Pu239, the weapons variety. However Pu239 + n = Pu240, so if you leave the fuel in the reactor for a long enough time it will build up enough Pu240 to only be "reactor-grade".
    6. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by Eccles · · Score: 3, Informative

      You forgot #4: reprocessing had a terrible history at that point. Incidentally, Ford started the policy the year before.

      "Reprocessing plants around the world have exhibited poor records of occupational safety, pollution control, waste containment, and security. For example, at the Hanford military plutonium reprocessing plant in Washington State, over a million gallons of high-level liquid waste has escaped from steel-and-concrete tanks into the soil. One gallon of this waste is enough to ruin an entire city's water supply. Hanford workers have also shown a significant increase in the incidence of cancer. In Russia, an explosion involving high-level liquid waste contaminated hundreds of square miles and hospitalized thousands of people. In the UK, a small explosion in 1973 occurred at the Windscale reprocessing plant [now known as Sellafield], and radioactive effluents have been substantial. In the US, large quantities of plutonium are missing and "unaccounted for" -- enough to make several hundred atomic bombs." (http://www.ccnr.org/AECL_plute.html)

      The UK has been reprocessing recently at their THORP plant, and it suffered a significant leak in 2005, so it's not just ancient history.

      Granted, much of the current concern about reprocessing is about making weapons-grade Plutonium, but the concern is generally that a country like Iran might use U.S. reprocessing to justify their own, but tweak their own plant to create Pu-239.

      --
      Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
    7. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by adrianmonk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the scientists think the companies will use this to boost mileage.

      Yeah, and the scientists who developed silicone breast implants thought they would be used by breast cancer victims who'd had mastectomies and just wanted to look normal again.

      Well, I'm sure they had some idea, but that was the intent at least.

    8. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by Inthewire · · Score: 2, Funny

      Of course, better efficiency just means more people before we strip the planet of resources.

      When are you killing yourself?

      --


      Writers imply. Readers infer.
    9. Re:What will they do with this efficiency, though? by BlueParrot · · Score: 2, Informative

      What you forget is that THORP, as many other reprocessing plants, was built for weapons production. The water contamination, poor performance, history of leaks, proliferation problems...etc can all be attributed to the use of the PUREX scheme for reprocessing. If you instead look at schemes designed for civilian use things switch by quite a bit. Take the electroplating techniques used by Argone for the waste from their EBR-II reactor as an example. It uses salt instead of water, so no water contamination. The salt is recycled in the process and eventually collected for safe disposal with the waste. In contrast PUREX uses large amounts of that is eventually released into the environment. Furthermore, the electro refining scheme is all done remotely in radiation shielded cells so the probability of a leak into the environment is minimal. You don't have the big complex of pipes and containers which hold waste dissolved in nitric acid. The equipment needed is small enough to be included as a part of the power plant thus eliminating the need for transporting the waste between power plant and reprocessing facility. Finally because the scheme never separates plutonium from the actinides ( it only extracts uranium and the fission products ) you can't use it to produce weapons grade plutonium.

      Basically it isn't reprocessing in itself that is dirty, it is the PUREX scheme that needs to be phased out. Reprocessing facilities like THORP may be modern, but they still use PUREX, with all its disadvantages.

      Finally missing plutonium, while of course very serious, can't be used to make bombs unless it is weapons grade, and even then it isn't something you just don't do in your basement, you need machinery capable of cutting high power plastic explosives with the same accuracy as lenses for binoculars, not to talk about the difficulty in designing a functional device. Highly enriched U-235 would be a greater concern as a gun-triggered uranium device is comparably easy to design ( but by no means trivial ). Plutonium is a lot more difficult to use and if it is not weapons grade it is unlikely that anybody other than existing nuclear powers will be able to obtain the necessary data to make it work. You are talking about technology necessary to compress a metal sphere the size of a grapefruit into something the size of a golf ball. Have any idea what kind of force is needed to compress a metal ? Well, here's a hint, the entire weight of the Eiffel tower doesn't manage to significantly change the density of the steel it rests on. Now keep in mind that any deviation from a perfectly symmetric compression will screw over your bomb. If any one of the detonating charges is a fraction of a second late, or if it detonates with a few percent less force than the others, or if the machine that cut the shape of the explosives did not cut it in a perfectly parabolic shape, then all that will happen is that the metal will fly out where the pressure is lower. To actually get a detonation out of the damn thing you need to produce a perfectly spherically imploding shock wave. Keep in mind, this will involve knowing exactly how to shape the explosives ( you need at least two types, and you need to determine their parabolic shape based on the exact detonation velocities of each ).

      Basically people like to think that once you got plutonium you are two minutes short of building a bomb. Its not quite that simple. If the plutonium isn't pure, or if it contains too much Pu-240, or if you failed to alloy it with just the right amount of gallium, or if you got the power of your explosives wrong by just a tiny bit, or if you failed to shape them perfectly right ( to the same accuracy as an optic lens ), if any of your neutronics calculations went wrong, or if your neutron initiator triggers at the wrong point, or if your tamper was slightly too heavy, or didn't reflect just the amount of neutrons you thought it did, the thing won't work. The probability that anyone other than an existing nuclear power would be able to use lost reactor grade plu

  2. Related story by ajs · · Score: 3, Informative

    Slashdot had a related story a while back on increases to engine efficiency. Not sure if it's related.

    1. Re:Related story by DysonSphere · · Score: 2, Interesting



      Bullshit! A timing light and feeler guage costs what? 20$ maybe? What's a laptop, cables, and software cost....? Forgot to mention keeping the OS up to date, keeping the dirt/rust/dust out of it, running an extension cord when the batt dies...

      Open the hood on a any 68 model year with a v8 in it (ok, except for the Boss 427's ;-)... I could almost climb in and close the hood while working on it (I could on my old full size pickup, and I'm 6' tall...) Change a water pump? 20 minutes. Remove the valve covers and clean the gunk out of the returns? 20 min. Pull the whole damn engine? 90 min or less with a good hoist and hard floor.

      Take a wild guess how many vehicles out there right now have a broken sensor(s) and are running with the default value tables in ROM because the owner is ignoring the idiot light... More than likely 70+ percent.

      Which type of vehicle would you want to have to fix in the middle of nowhere if your life absolutely depended on it? "Shit, my laptop battery is dead...", "I can't reach the hose to get some duct tape around it", "WTF are all of these wires melted into a ball?"

      Efficiency, higher mileage, reduced emissions, etc are to be applauded, but I think that the auto industry absolutely sucks when it comes to building vehicles. "Lets cover up the oil filter by bolting this onto that, then cover it with this, then route 20 wiring harnesses over/under it. Oh yeah, don't forget to design in a bunch of nooks and crannies for the salt and mud to hide in." "Lets design a $500 part with 10 stepper motors and 3 micro controllers to control the environmental controls too...."

      After all, they want you back in the showroom before the current one is paid off, and would rather have you come into the dealership for pricey profitable service.

      --
      Mommy. What's a karma whore?
  3. I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But they don't actually talk at all about how they WILL drive the cams. And for that matter, they still have cams! Driving valves with solenoids somehow would be more meaningful. If they're keeping the cam, then they can have variable timing easily enough, but they're still going to need a bunch of additional hardware to control lift and duration. Of course, it takes a lot of power to use solenoids to drive the valves, which is why they're not doing it now. Personally I'm far more interested in Coates rotary valves, which have been used in racing. They let you raise RPMs dramatically without having an exploding valvetrain. Combine that with direct injection and I'll be pleased as punch.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    1. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by TempeNerd · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The also haven't built anything - just modeled it on a computer.
      They may not have solved any of the actual implementation issues, nothing in the article said they had.

      I don't wish to belittle their design ideas - but it is usually very difficult to go from a revolutionary engine design to an operational engine. A good example is the Stirling Engine, great design - difficult to realize.

      I wish them luck - but not going to hold my breath for this one.

    2. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by theguru · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why keep a cam if you're electronically controlling the valves? Just like ignition systems have gone to fully solid state, with very few cars having distributors any more, why not move to fully digital timing?

      The cam/valves are really the last mechanical part of the loop. The fuel/air mixtures are now fully controlled by the ECU, and can change on the fly to adjust for altitude, temperature, manifold pressure (turbo and supercharged systems), and the octane of the fuel. As I mentioned above, the spark systems are now fully controlled by a computer, and advance or retard the cylinder ignition, sometimes in conjunction with the fuel curve, to best burn the fuel/air mixture. Being able to dynamically change the valve timing, opening, closing, overlap, duration opens up even more possibilities for tuning and timing an engine.

    3. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 3, Informative

      In Formula One racing, motors have featured compressed air to open and close the poppet valves. This is related to that development, at least 20 years old. It makes valve timing independent of crankshaft angle, so maximum efficiency can be reached at any or all engine speeds. Parasitic losses are less, and so is weight, the cam, cam drive and other associated rotating parts can be replaced with air or oil operated solenoids.

      The other "development" you mention is that adding water to the combustion process allows a higher compression ratio to be used without the risk of preignition or knock. This results in more (and more even) combustion pressure, meaning more torque everywhere from the same amount of gas. This method is very popular among drag racers, and is sometimes used with air/water injection into a turbo- or supercharger's plenum to keep the pressurized air from becoming uselessly hot before compression in the motor.

      Rotary valves are a much older development. They have no history of producing more power or reliability (or even efficiency) than traditional valves. Of course, there is no reason they should. Both of the above techniques combined might double the efficiency of the internal combustion engine.

    4. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by drinkypoo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why keep a cam if you're electronically controlling the valves? Just like ignition systems have gone to fully solid state, with very few cars having distributors any more, why not move to fully digital timing?

      I don't know if you've ever had to compress a valve spring, but they're pretty pissed off devices.

      The best thing we could do would be to move to some kind of rotary valve system - any kind, really. Because reciprocating valves have problems. They are what limits RPMs, which is why rotary engines have been known to reach over 10,000 RPM, and why a [very very built] small block tchevy :) with a Coates rotary valve system has reached over 12,000 RPM (can't find cite for that, but their page says "The comparative efficiencies of the spherical rotary valve combustion engine have enabled engine speeds of 14,850 RPMs."

      We could make smaller, even more efficient engines by increasing RPM, but we don't do that because it causes valvetrain death. In order to get high RPMs, you need to be able to open and close the valves faster. Cams only open valves; springs shut them. This has two effects; one, there is a hammering process that goes on between the valve and the seat. Two, if the springs are not strong enough, they do not push the valve closed fast enough, and you get a phenomenon called "valve float". Solenoids can provide infinitely variable valve timing and duration, and through a shifting system (where the whole actuation system moves) you can provide variable lift. But as you increase RPMs, you need to increase the spring rate, and therefore you need stronger and stronger solenoids.

      A solenoid valvetrain has been used in racing (I forget by who) but no one has managed to make a system suitable for the street yet. That's really too bad, because you could eliminate most of the valvetrain that way. But there are definitely serious implementation issues. Rotary valves are here now. There are competing designs, but none with pictures as pretty.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    5. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by compwizrd · · Score: 3, Insightful

      For 500 something miles.

    6. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by DigiShaman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You want an engine that makes peak HP with the lowest RPM level possible for two reasons. 1st, engine wear (think RPM squared). 2nd, fuel efficiency. Even with the best dynamic valve timing, you will achieve maximum burn and emissions the longer the gas has time in the combustion phase. While you can make lots of power in the high RPM band, you'll sacrifice fuel efficiency and emissions. It's always a trade-off which is why we have open and closed loop ECU algorithms in place.

      While I like elegant design of the Coates cam for racing, it's not a practical solution for the mass auto market. Keeping a constant seal with oil is a problem without having it sucked into the combustion chamber. This would lead to carbon fouling. Also, the cam is static, not variable like the proposed system (and the previous V-Tec systems) which poses a major problem for reducing emissions while maintaining a beefy power curve.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    7. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and I wonder how long till these are perfected so they do not break often?

      One of the biggest problems with newer cars is that one needs to hook up the computer to fix them. And the computer is not always correct. I had an intermittent problem with the car almost stalling out. I would be driving at 55 mph for a while (30 min, 2 hours+) slow down for a toll (didn't have to stop easy pass) hit the gas to go again. The engine rpms would drop to under 100. I usually took my foot off the gas then hit it again. Take it to the shop/dealer no error code == nothing wrong. I finally got an error code. The code was spark plug #4. They wanted to due a tune up. I just had a tune up ( a freaking good one with better stuff then stock). A second tune up later. It does it again. Again with spark plug number 4. Now they say the lower O rings are bad and need changing. These have been changed already (20k ago for a different issue ethanol gas killed the original ones). I asked that they make sure all the o rings are ethanol gas proof. A year later guess what the error code is, spark plug number 4. And they say it is the lower o rings again. I tell them the o rings have been changed twice now. They tried to talk me into yet another lower o ring replacement (they had started without my approval already) when I told them that they had done the repair last year they decided to check other thing besides the error code. The whole time the air mass sensor was going bad. One $200 repair cost me $3500 because the thing that was broken didn't throw a code. And the first spark plug in the firing order, number 4. Which was not getting the correct air-fuel mix and throwing the code.

      So letting a computer control more of the car? Not until I have been convinced it works without failing. Which may be why we have yet to see these in regular cars.

    8. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by wilhelm · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The top-end racing cars use pneumatic valves. There's no float, because all the movement is positive, i.e. no "let the spring push it back to rest", but rather "push in the air to open, suck out the air to close".

      And in response to the sibling posts: sure, they only run for 200-500 miles at a time, but they run at very close to the absolute limits of the engine the whole time. Also, many of the top-end racing leagues have a limit on the number of engines a car is allowed to go through per season; to my understanding, most of those numbers are in the very low single digits.

    9. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by karnal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually sounds like you need to find a mechanic that can look at the whole picture and not just concentrate on the compy.

      Of course, when you find that one, send him or her my way - I've not found anyone like that yet. I'm trying to learn though...

      --
      Karnal
    10. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by Emil+S+Hansen · · Score: 2, Informative
      They are what limits RPMs, which is why rotary engines have been known to reach over 10,000 RPM, and why a [very very built] small block tchevy :) with a Coates rotary valve system has reached over 12,000 RPM (can't find cite for that, but their page says "The comparative efficiencies of the spherical rotary valve combustion engine have enabled engine speeds of 14,850 RPMs."

      Hmm, my inline 600 ccm Yamaha R6 motorcycle engine tops out at 15.000 RPM, and it got nothing special to it. Just good old valves and springs.

      And if you want to overcome the problem of floating valves at high RPMS you can do like ducati and have a forced closing of the valve (desmodromic valve).

      The limiting factor in engine RPMS is the piston mass, you can't have a piston that travles too fast and wieghs too much, or it will knock the crankshaft silly and break. That is why high performance, high reving engines has started to go "oversquare" (bigger bore, shorter stroke).

      --
      Will work for bandwidth!
    11. Re:I RTFA yesterday when I saw it on the Firehose by tbuskey · · Score: 2, Informative

      You're looking at car engines, right? My 1982 Honda CB900 redlines at 12,000. Around that time, Honda had a 500cc GP bike that had a powerband between 22,000 and 24,000 rpm. V4, oval pistons, 8 valves per cylinder. It made it to production as the NSR500.

      On another front, cams can close valves too. Ducati uses a desmodramic(sp?) system that doesn't use valve springs at all. It was developed at a time when the metallurgy to make springs meant lots of compromise. Desmodromic means no vavle float. Ducati uses it in their production and MotoGP motorcycles. Right now in MotoGP, Ducati has a big horsepower advantage over Yamaha & Honda (both with valve springs I think) and Suzuki (with pneumatic valves).

      In the 80s, Maico had a 4 stroke that used premix and reed valves. The air/fuel mix came into the crankcase via reed valves. Another reed valve from there went to a tube that lead to the more conventional overhead valves. It gave it a supercharger effect.

  4. So it's glorified Variable Valve Timing, then by jimicus · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nothing spectacular about changing the timing on the valves depending on how the engine's being driven:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_valve_timing

    According to Wikipedia, VVT has existed since the 1960's. The only improvement I can see (and that's from reading between the lines) is that they've developed a means of controlling it more precisely.

    1. Re:So it's glorified Variable Valve Timing, then by SaDan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      FTFA:

      "The new method would eliminate the mechanism linking the crankshaft to the camshaft, providing an independent control system for the valves."

      Providing precise valve control without using camshafts is a fairly big leap in engine tech for your average car or truck.

    2. Re:So it's glorified Variable Valve Timing, then by jfengel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's pretty much standard stuff in science reporting these days:

      1. Scientist develops an improvement in an old but unused technology.

      2. Nobody had ever heard of the old technology, so they can't explain the new stuff until they explain the old stuff.

      3. The press writes about the old stuff, not realizing that it's not news.

      Plus bonus step 4: scientist, trying to ensure that grants continue, points out that eventually there's a major improvement to be made, which the press promptly presents as "imminent".

      You see this all the time on Slashdot, especially in conjunction with solar-cell stuff. There's news there, but it's not what the press is talking about, because the actual news is less interesting.

    3. Re:So it's glorified Variable Valve Timing, then by Denis+Troller · · Score: 2, Insightful

      From what I understand, any Common Rail High Pressure Diesel Injection engine do at least some kind of VVT. In those engines, diesel in sent to solenoid valves under high pressure, and the engine ECU injects them into the combustion chamber at the optimum rate and ratio for the current conditions. It seems to me this is some kind of VVT. Those engines have been in use by european cars for several years. In France, the 3 main manufacturers (Renaul, Peugeot and Citroen) have offerings based on this and achieve 40 to 47 mpg without too much problem (granted, I'm not talking about huge SUVs here, more about reasonable cars that allow you to go from A to B and that you can actually park somewhere in a city. But enough with the free rant). Anyway, just my 2 cents.

      --
      That's not a nick, that's my NAME.
  5. Nothing new by Oz0ne · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Toyota and Honda have both been leveraging variable valve timing techniques to boost performance and efficiency for over a decade.

    The big difference here is that finally someone realizes we can do that independent of crankshaft, pistons, and cams.

    It's a simple concept really, monitor your engine and control the valves on solenoids digitally and you can achieve monumental performance, efficiency, and emmission improvements. It's really just a matter of making the concept cost effective to produce.

    1. Re:Nothing new by inviolet · · Score: 5, Informative

      The big difference here is that finally someone realizes we can do that independent of crankshaft, pistons, and cams.

      This is not news. BMW has been playing with this for years. So has Mercedes -- they call it EVT, for Electronic Valve Train. And next year it will ship in the 2008 C-Class sedan.

      --
      FATMOUSE + YOU = FATMOUSE
  6. Nah by damacus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    All the benefits will be squandered on making bigger, heavier vehicles. At least, that's what's been happening with improvements in efficiency since the 80s. Sigh...

    1. Re:Nah by massivefoot · · Score: 2, Funny

      Except that your extra horsepower is constantly being used to drag around your huge SUV that you somehow believe is compensating for your small penis.

    2. Re:Nah by jo7hs2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your statement is ironic. Most of the people I see driving SUVs are smallish women.

    3. Re:Nah by Cunk · · Score: 4, Funny

      Based on his or her wording I'd say he or she was mainly fascinated with his penis.

      --

      I am the inventor of the hilarious refrigerator alarm.
    4. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      And who has the smallest penis? Women!

    5. Re:Nah by drooling-dog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Diminutive genitalia aside, we need to examine this whole idea that anybody even cares how big the car is that you're driving. Once we meet certain minimal standards of daily hygiene, behavior, and attire, there's very little we can achieve by buying stuff that really enhances what people think of us all that much (regardless of marketers' attempts to convince us otherwise).

      Every guy who buys a land barge drives it around feeling like the Big Man About Town, but to everyone else on the street he's either invisible or just a dickhead who doesn't give a rat's ass about the environmental cost of what he's doing. Seriously, do you ever see someone driving past in a new Hummer and say to yourself, "Wow, I really admire whoever's driving that beast. I'd like to be his friend!". If he was a slob or an idiot before, he's now a slob or an idiot with an SUV.

      Nobody cares. It took most of my life and a fair amount of wasted money to finally learn that.

    6. Re:Nah by Leroy+Brown · · Score: 5, Funny

      Then there are those of us that drive SUVs because our penis wont fit in a compact.

    7. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Oh wow, another slashdotter with little to no knowledge of female anatomy. Go outside.

    8. Re:Nah by bdjacobson · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your statement is ironic. Most of the people I see driving SUVs are smallish women. Because, ecosystem be damned, they want to feel safe and they just couldn't imagine driving their kids around in anything but an Expedition. That way if they cause a wreck they'll kill OTHER families' (that can't afford anything but a small van) kids.
    9. Re:Nah by EugeneK · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Every heard of the clitoris? It's the same organ, ontogenously. And it tends to be smaller than the average penis! I'd say you're the one lacking knowledge of female anatomy, buddy.

      (Damn I love wikipedia!)

    10. Re:Nah by dal20402 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Until they roll over, because no American drivers are trained to handle heavy, high-CoG vehicles...

      American SUV stupidity just makes me want to bash my head against a wall. The vehicles don't do ANYTHING well, at all (except tow loads heavier than 99% of owners will ever need to tow), and yet all the sheeple think they're the best things on the road, because all the other sheeple think they're the best things on the road.

      They're unsafe, slow, can't handle, can't stop, don't have much interior space, are hard to load and unload, don't do well off road, and cost half again as much as more capable cars and vans. Ugh.

    11. Re:Nah by drooling-dog · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You missed my point. I wasn't criticizing SUV owners so much as questioning the assumptions and motivations behind our (yes, mine too) conspicuous consumption. Just as easily could have used jewelry or oversized houses as examples. The point is that we don't attract nearly as much favorable attention when we buy stuff like that as we think we do, so maybe we're wasting our money in addition to whatever other harm we may be causing.

      Kudos on the bike anyway, though...

    12. Re:Nah by srw · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And they get me home safely after a blizzard when my roomate with his Festiva was stranded.

      6 people died near here in February.

      Don't tell me what kind of vehicle I don't need.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYs7AP8UPic
      http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/556944959vklPkJ
      http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNew s/20070110/storm_weather_070110/20070110?hub=Canad a (more were found dead later)

    13. Re:Nah by Grishnakh · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, SUVs kinda suck for towing too, compared to regular pick-up trucks. You can't tow a gooseneck trailer with a SUV, for instance.

      SUVs are basically very mediocre at everything, because other vehicles best them in every category: fuel economy (any car), passenger capacity (vans and minivans), performance (most cars), handling (any other vehicle), towing (pick-up trucks), cargo carrying (trucks again), etc.

      Most SUV owners would be much better served by having two vehicles instead of trying to have one vehicle that does everything (poorly). Need to carry cargo or tow stuff sometimes? Get a used, cheap pick-up. Need to carry lots of people sometimes? Get a used, cheap minivan. Need 4WD because of bad weather? Get a Suburu.

    14. Re:Nah by flyingsquid · · Score: 4, Funny
      Except that your extra horsepower is constantly being used to drag around your huge SUV that you somehow believe is compensating for your small penis.

      Actually, I need the horsepower of a large car to drag along my jaw-droppingly huge penis. That, or a powerful motorcycle with a sidecar.

    15. Re:Nah by dal20402 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I appreciate the severity of the blizzard and am glad you got home safely. But an all-wheel-drive car with good snow tires would have done the same job. If you were caught off-road, you would have had a much better chance with a Wrangler or short-wheelbase pickup. Your experience doesn't change the fact that other vehicles do everything SUVs do much better.

    16. Re:Nah by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think his point is that there are better cars for dealing with weather, cargo transport, people transport, etc. SUVs don't address any of those problems in a particularly good way. Another problem is that people in SUVs tend to think they're safer in storms when pretty much any car has about the same stopping power on ice - none. Yet they drive in more of an unsafe manner because of it.

    17. Re:Nah by Plutonite · · Score: 5, Funny

      Why do you seem to have a fascination with the size of his or her genitals? Gender equality is very noble, but I think omitting the "her" would be OK in this particular case.
    18. Re:Nah by Plutonite · · Score: 3, Funny

      So can I have your Hummer now please? I want to learn the hard way :)

    19. Re:Nah by RubberDuckie · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, I need to pull a trailer on occasion. That's not doable, safely, with a Prius. Please don't assume that everyone needs to compensate for something (or lack thereof).

    20. Re:Nah by Associate · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm only obsessed with my own penis. Excepting of course penises girls keep in their nightstands. And that excepting only the hot ones.

      --
      Someone hates these cans.
    21. Re:Nah by enjerth · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Okay, the truth is, I don't key cars, and not all SUV owners are that fucking irresponsible. The problem is that what *seems* to be the majority -IS- that irresponsible, and I get just a tid bit worked up about it, especially when they merge into my lane without looking AND when said merging is illegal (single white line, jackass! you can merge in 200 feet ffs!) Wait, are you trying to suggest that this kind of reckless driving is somehow limited to people who drive SUV's? Or are you just THAT much more pissed off because they're driving an SUV? Perhaps you're jealous that they have an SUV, so you're taking your frustration with reckless drivers out on them?

      I see that kind of behavior more often from people driving smaller vehicles.
    22. Re:Nah by enjerth · · Score: 2, Informative

      No. I'm barrel-chested. This 60 inches is not from obesity.

    23. Re:Nah by Lord+Kano · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You almost get it. SUVs are vehicles that can do many things, but none of them especially well.

      Sure, a pickup can tow better than my Blazer or my Jimmy, but how comfortably can you pack four passengers into an S-10 pickup?

      Sure, any mid-sized sedan can fit four passengers, but not comfortably (three in the back seat sucks) and how much of their stuff can you fit in the back?

      A compact or a hybrid will get much better gas mileage than any SUV but if that's your sole deciding factor, why not get yourself a moped?

      Most SUV owners would be much better served by having two vehicles instead of trying to have one vehicle that does everything (poorly). Need to carry cargo or tow stuff sometimes? Get a used, cheap pick-up. Need to carry lots of people sometimes? Get a used, cheap minivan. Need 4WD because of bad weather? Get a Suburu.

      I can comfortably afford to maintain and pay for one vehicle, not three. How about you?

      LK

      --
      "Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
    24. Re:Nah by Michael+Woodhams · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Or, changing the realm of consumption: "Woman is fine for her own satisfaction alone. No man will admire her the more, no woman will like her the better for it. Neatness and fashion are enough for the former, and a something of shabbiness or impropriety will be most endearing to the latter." -- Jane Austen, 'Northanger Abbey'.

      --
      Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
    25. Re:Nah by Grimbleton · · Score: 2, Funny

      Women? Minorities? The elderly?

    26. Re:Nah by fractoid · · Score: 4, Funny

      You mean all those ads, the ones that tell us that women will flock to us, our boring daily commute will turn into an exciting safari, and we'll suddenly mysteriously have copious free time if only we would just buy product X for no upfront payment, are lying?

      I find THAT hard to believe!

      --
      Rampant carbon sequestration destroyed the Dinosaurs' tropical paradise. I'm here to help repair the damage.
    27. Re:Nah by Stinky+Fartface · · Score: 5, Funny

      Well, unless you can pull that trailer with your penis, you are compensating.

    28. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      No. I'm barrel-chested.

      Does that mean you can survive the ride down Niagara Falls?

    29. Re:Nah by mattynabib · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, I'd narrow that down by saying "nobody is IMPRESSED" by your Urban Assault Vehicle. Many people care - I, for one, care that as a driver of a normal-height vehicle, the "heightening" of American traffic is (IMHO) the single greatest cause of road-rage. I HATE not being able to see around or through 60% of the vehicles on the road in traffic. I also care that SUVs - and the general mindset behind them - are a major contributor to the climate crisis we are facing. I care that owning an SUV seems to turn many normally sane, pleasant human beings into entitled, ignorant, dangerous drivers who seem to think that extra bulk means more privilege on the road - their size seems to make them far, far less respectful on the road than the other way around.

      I do think there's a place for them (say, if you are in a band and haul a lot of large equipment, and live in a snowy area where 4wd is useful, and you occasionally drive back into the woods behind your house to haul brush... that combo makes an SUV pretty attractive). But hell, if you are going to walk around calling yourself a truck, then ACT like a truck is supposed to, and be more respectful of cars on the road, and don't friggin' drive in the passing lanes, and don't go into garages with 7 foot clearances and tight turns, and don't park in parking spots designed for normal cars... aw hell, I could go on and on.

      To sum up: I CARE! But I do think most people who drive them are dicks, particularly Hummers.

      Kind of funny, though, that the really big dicks get Hummers...

    30. Re:Nah by Ziwcam · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Wait, are you trying to suggest that this kind of reckless driving is somehow limited to people who drive SUV's? Or are you just THAT much more pissed off because they're driving an SUV? Perhaps you're jealous that they have an SUV, so you're taking your frustration with reckless drivers out on them? I see that kind of behavior more often from people driving smaller vehicles. It endangers me more when some lady talking on her mobile phone in an SUV does it, than when same lady driving a car that weighs as much as mine does it... Standard psychics apply. If her vehicle weighs 3 times as much as mine, she imparts 3 times as much force onto my vehicle when she hits it because the bitch wasn't paying attention.

      Because it endangers me more, it frustrates me more, and pisses me off more.

      (note: I mentioned women because this is a recent, real-life experience for me. I am in no way implying that men don't do the same thing...)

    31. Re:Nah by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Funny

      They're unsafe, slow, can't handle, can't stop...

      I'm confused. Are we talking about cars, or Ted Kennedy?

      --
      What?
    32. Re:Nah by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, that's a good reason to drive a small car. These days, everyone and their dog has an SUV, so I usually find myself looking at people's doors at stoplights.

    33. Re:Nah by sumdumass · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Umm, In a blizzard, the majority of people get stuck because the ground clearance of the vehicle is to low to the ground. A high riding SUV will go far more places then any all whell drive car that doesn't sit as hit.

      I have big tires with deep lugs on my pickup truck. I can usually pull all wheel drive cars out and get them unstuck in 2 wheel drive just because of this. The snow when you frame or even ground effect s(spoiler) starts dragging, it acts like a plow and builds up in front of the vehicle while your driving. When it is doing this, it compacts and almost turns into a block of ice. Once this is so big, it wedges under the vehicle and has the same effect as trying to pop a large curb on a slippery surface. If you catch it soon enough and don't dig tire depression into it, OR sit on it letting the warmth of the tires melt one in it, you can usually back out of it and drive around the blockage until it happens again but you have to watch out for other cars in the process.

      While this doesn't happen often, you can look at the ground clearance of your car, the lowest point will hit first and sometimes that is less then 4 or 6 inches on smaller cars. That means as little as 2 inches of snow with drifting can strand you. With an SUV, you usually have twice as much clearance and and more weight driving the tires to solid pavement better when spinning for traction. They can usually last a lot longer. But you can be fooled into a false safety and get stuck there too. I have 14 inches of clearance from the differential points on the axles of my pickup truck. After that, the low spot is 20 inches to the ground. I don't have to worry about that and quite frankly, I'm not driving in 10 or 15 inches of snow. But If you out in the middle of nowhere, sometime you need to drive in 4 or 6 inches of snow just to get somewhere safe.

      An SUV, if it has the ground clearance, can go further then an all wheel drive car, sometimes even in 2 wheel drive.

    34. Re:Nah by xtal · · Score: 4, Informative

      As a Canadian, who has driven in extreme weather for 17 years - ANY car, with proper snow tires, is adequate for almost any situtation you will encompass. The only weather it won't help you with is sheet ice, or huge drifts, and there, you're finished in anything short of a lumber skidder or perhaps a tank.

      I easily outmaneuver SUVs on "all season especially winter" tires in my little FWD car with maybe 5" of clearance tops. Because I have enough sense to put proper snow tires on in the fall.

      4WD does nothing to help you stop, either.

      --
      ..don't panic
    35. Re:Nah by arivanov · · Score: 2, Informative
      As far as getting you home. So will a VW Golf 4motion, Daihatsu Sirion 4track, Skoda Octavia 4x4 not to mention Subaru and plenty of other vehicles by other manufacturers. 4x4 is not an exclusive feature of an SUV and most SUVs have worse 4x4 implementation than some normal cars.

      IIRC, 4-5 years ago Top Gear (or 5th Gear, forgot, one of the UK TV car shows) did a test comparing the following: Landrover Freelander (typical POS SUV), Skoda Octavia 4x4 (VW group estate with a 4x4 gearbox), Renault Scenic 4x4 (Medium family MPV with 4x4 gearbox). All in roughly the same weight and engine class. I recall some of the results:

      Motorway Handling - dodging a cardboard box dropped from a lorry in front:

      • Worst - Freelander. It nearly flipped over when doing the exercise. Screaming passengers, Flying luggage. Typical SUV style.
      • Scenic - tolerable, considerably better than the FreeLander.
      • Best - Skoda. Stayed glued to the road.
      Towing a trailer on wet grass field :
      • Worst - Freelander. All show, no substance. SUV all the way.
      • Skoda - close second to the Scenic overtaking the FreeLander by far.
      • Best - Scenic.
      And so on. Overall the "classic" SUV fared worst even in the dirt tasks they advertise it for, while the two 4x4 family cars more or less tied the first place (with Renault winning by a small margin).
      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    36. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This echoes the Swedish attitude, where sales of 4wd vehicles are very small indeed, but they have more snow than most. They all have two wheel drive cars, and use the correct tyres.

      4wds are good for rallying. That's about it.

    37. Re:Nah by arivanov · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Have you tried driving the A2? I tried, got off and bought something else. It is horrid. People who buy small cars buy them for city driving where visibility is one of the key purchase decision factors. My wife got in, looked around, said "I can't see sh** here" and got out refusing to even turn the engine on to the dismay of the salesdroid. It has A pillars so thick that you can miss a cyclist at a roundabout. The rear view glass is curved to a point where any car behind you looks like a Toyota Yaris Verso. The perception of distance is completely distorted. Add to that the fact that it does not have a rare window wiper so once you drop to city driving speeds you see nothing in the rare view mirror. There is a reason why its sales are so low and it is that it ze very bad dezign. By the way, the wife got out of the Audi, got into a Sirion and nearly beat up the next salesman because she could not drive it home straight off the forecourt: "What do you mean, I cannot buy it now. I am paying you cash, why are you telling me that I cannot carry?".

      Smart FourTwo is an oddball and it is mostly Swatch design anyway. Swiss, not German origin. The Roadster is no longer manufactured. FourFour is actually a Mitsubishi design and reuses the chassis of the new Colt. So does the new A-Class and neither one of them is small in the sense of C1/Aygo/107/Cuore/Modus small. Same for BMW1, A3. They are small family cars by class, not superminis.

      AFAIK, Ford Fiasco is not a German design, neither is the Ka. Both of them have the same footprint as a new Yaris or an old Sirion and show "how an idiot afraid to cannibalize his large car sales can bastardize an otherwise good idea". They offer 70% or less of the internal and luggage space compared to a Japanese or French car in the same category.

      That leaves only the Corsa and the Opel clones of Suzuki designs. One bird spring does not make so I will stand by my statement - Germans do not design anything competitive in the small car sector. Because zey can't. Ze car has to look like ze Panzer...

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    38. Re:Nah by SnapShot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I may be mistaken but I don't think any of the cars you mentioned as "good" (other than the various Subarus) are available here in the U.S.. I think the 4motion is only available in the Passat level VW and the other two aren't available at all.

      It's a sad feedback loop:
      1. U.S. dealers don't think we want useful cars,
      2. Useful cars aren't available,
      3. We buy crap cars,
      4. Goto 1

      --
      Waltz, nymph, for quick jigs vex Bud.
    39. Re:Nah by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I easily outmaneuver SUVs on "all season especially winter" tires in my little FWD car with maybe 5" of clearance tops. Because I have enough sense to put proper snow tires on in the fall.

      4WD does nothing to help you stop, either.


      Why is this modded insightful? I see front wheel drive cars with "proper tires" stuck in northern Ohio all the time. A car with a decent AWD system (Subaru, Audi) along with decent driving skills will kick the shit out of front wheel drive any day.

      And, while AWD may not help you stop, it will help you maneuver when you can't stop. I went from two front wheel drive Toyotas to two AWD Subarus and will never go back.
    40. Re:Nah by stuntpope · · Score: 3, Insightful

      No, he's right. Most SUV's are macho-looking, inefficient station wagons that do less than real station wagons do. Their cargo area, when you have passengers in the rear seats, is no better than most cars. My dad's 66 Chevy Bel Air station wagon, and most wagons of that period, could fit more stuff, and longer stuff, in the rear. Where is the utility in the SUV? For hauling many people in comfort, minivans are better-suited, but consumers were taught to think of them as dorky. For hauling big heavy stuff or towing, pickup trucks make sense. The utilitarian vehicle for urban life would be the station (estate) wagon. SUVs are the worst of compromises, not the best of all worlds. Why people choose them for their main everyday vehicle in urban areas is beyond me.

    41. Re:Nah by Sax+Maniac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why people choose [SUVs] for their main everyday vehicle in urban areas is beyond me.

      Car seat inflation. In the olde days you could fit 12 kids in that station wagon. Five in the middle, two in the front, and about seven in the cargo area. The car seats are huge these days, and by law the kids need to be in them until... what? 17? So no more.

      How many US vehicles fit 3+ kids in bulky car seat, has AWD/4WD, and isn't an SUV? There are not many.

      Personally, I drive a medium wagon, because I don't usually drive the kids. It's just not possible to fit the entire family of 5 in there legally. We also have a small 2-row SUV and it just barely fits the three kids, and not for much longer.

      --
      I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.
  7. Lipstick on a pig by tinrobot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No matter how efficient an internal combustion engine gets, it will still emit carbon dioxide. While this technology might help an engine spew less carbon dioxide, it's still a dead end -- kind of like putting lipstick on a pig.

    Put the effort into other forms of energy and we'll be a lot better off a lot more quickly.

    1. Re:Lipstick on a pig by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No matter how efficient an internal combustion engine gets, it will still emit carbon dioxide.

      No matter how much carbon dioxide an internal combustion engine emits, the fuel consumption will still be carbon-neutral if it's running on biofuels.

      Put the effort into other forms of energy and we'll be a lot better off a lot more quickly.

      We have a huge fueling infrastructure that is not simply going to go away overnight, and internal combustion engines will be here (on Earth) for a long, long time to come. Making them more efficient is probably a good idea.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Been done by OnlineAlias · · Score: 3, Informative


    Why does this warrant such a sensational article? Racing engines have been actuating valves pneumatically for years and exhaust gas recirculation has been around forever too. Hell, Honda's old CVCC used a similar exhaust technique back in the 70's.

  9. Pretty Low I Would Say ... What Motive Is There? by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Informative

    What's the over/under that this technology will be bought by ford / gm and killed in development?
    Probably pretty low probability of that happening since a lot of people are working on it.

    It's not just Purdue working on this, nor is it cutting edge. The idea of variable valve actuation has been around for a while as well as HCCI, which has some problems that are yet to be overcome. One of the notable ones that I recall is simple power. As the Wikipedia article notes, in a gasoline engine, you increase the fule/air charge to increase power. In a diesel engine, you just inject more fuel. In an HCCI engine, it's tough because "many of the viable control strategies for HCCI require thermal preheating of the charge which reduces the density and hence the mass of the air/fuel charge in the combustion chamber, reducing power. These factors makes increasing the power in HCCI inherently challenging."

    For more info, the Wikipedia page has some great references: So, it's got a lot of benefits but a few trade offs that need to be addressed first. Honestly, why would Ford/GM buy this out and kill it when they could just develop the technology themselves and integrate it into their vehicles like Hitachi's research? I mean, just because technology changes doesn't mean they should kill it instead of changing with it, right?
    --
    My work here is dung.
  10. The Bandwagon Seems the Obvious Choice by lmnfrs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    1. GM buys technology
    2. New efficient engines are developed and promoted
    3. Next generation of cars have negligible improvement in fuel economy
    4. ???
    5. Profit!!

  11. Nice, but go renewable... by rly2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Trying to improve the efficiency of ICE engines is good as a short-term solution, but eventually we will need to wean ourselves out of petroleum. I know the subject has been hammered onto every slashdotter's heads, but I think BEVs are the way to go.

    1. Re:Nice, but go renewable... by drinkypoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The problems with batteries are that they have poor energy density (even the theoretical energy density of a chemical battery is less than that of gasoline) and that they take a lot of energy to produce. They also tend to be based around substantial quantities of toxic, polluting materials; the refinement of those materials is further detrimental to the environment. Fuel cells with liquid fuels produced by nuclear, solar, wind, hydro, or biofuels (or taking biofuels directly) do much better along potentially all of these lines.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  12. Re:Killed in "development"? by Rorschach1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You mean like they did with fuel injection technology?

  13. Re:Killed in "development"? by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    None. Why would GM or Ford kill anything that would give them an advantage over Honda or Toyota?
    Your Tinfoil hat is on too tight again.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  14. Re:Killed in "development"? by anvilmark · · Score: 5, Funny

    You selected the wrong entry from the Standard List of Villains. The correct comment would have been:
    "What's the chance the EVIL OIL COMPANIES will buy this out and kill it?"

  15. Re:Hope they patented it. by MDMurphy · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, you have a year from the time you publish or offer for sale a product that includes the invention.

    http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/document s/appxl_35_U_S_C_102.htm

    A person shall be entitled to a patent unless -

    (a) the invention was known or used by others in this country, or patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country, before the invention thereof by the applicant for patent, or

    (b) the invention was patented or described in a printed publication in this or a foreign country or in public use or on sale in this country, more than one year prior to the date of the application for patent in the United States...
    emphasis added

  16. Har, har, har!!! by 0WaitState · · Score: 4, Funny

    from the blurb:

    ...which would allow the United States to drastically reduce its dependence on foreign oil...

    Editor doesn't know much 'Murkins, does he? This will be used to create higher-horsepower, heavier cars, not more efficient ones. Coming soon: The Hummer Canyonero-Magnum!

    --

    Remain calm! All is well!
    1. Re:Har, har, har!!! by rhizome · · Score: 3, Funny

      Coming soon: The Hummer Canyonero-Magnum!

      Do they make that in an F-series?

      --
      When I was a kid, we only had one Darth.
  17. Same old same old... by airider · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Come on folks. I think we've all come to the conclusion that ICE is on it's way out and additional tweaking doesn't solve the problem, just delays the impact. Rather than sink a bunch of money, time and effort into this, we should be sinking money, time and effort into designs that eliminate burning oil products and eliminate emissions entirely. We have working models and prototypes of these types of systems already, why would we need to build another prototype of an "old" model. Doesn't make any sense. I hope this guys gets his funding cut.

  18. Doesn't Sound That New by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This doesn't sound that new, at least not in concept. Actuating engine valves with something other than camshafts, lifters, pushrods, and rocker arms as been around as an idea for a long time. I recall a Tucker prototype engine in the San Diego Automotive Museum (Balboa Park) that explored that concept. And Honda VTEC, IIRC, varies valve timing based on RPM.

    Yeah, mechanical valve actuation has its problems. It makes for either non-optimal valve placement (standard wedge heads) or overly complicated mechanical actuation trains (see Chrysler original Hemi engine design). So a better method to actuate valves than driving it from a fixed, or fixed-variable, design could make for better engine performance overall. That's hardly new. As best I've seen, this has been merely an engineering problem to determine a better way to actuate valves that meets the requirements of cost, durability, cost, performance, and cost -- when it comes to consumer engines. While such an actuator method is certainly significant news in and of itself, it's not like someone has redone the whole engine.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  19. Re:Variable valve timing by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative

    The RX-EVOLV in the RX-8 falls significantly short of original projections and the vehicles have a tendency to get poor mileage. It would be better to make a comparison to the pissed off TT motor in the late model RX7, which actually has more power. That however was turbocharged. But then again, I like turbocharging/supercharging.

    --
    "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  20. No mod him -1 bugger eating moron. by HornWumpus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    He didn't even bother reading the summary which points out that this might raise the efficiency of gas engines into the range of diesels. (RTFS)

    He also didn't bother doing any research on the relative amount of diesel consumed in the USA vs Gasoline.

    Like I said a moron.

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  21. The trouble with direct valve actuation by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    The trouble with direct valve actuation is making an actuator that's fast enough, powerful enough, small enough, heat-tolerant enough, and reliable enough to do the job. Cheaply. This is not easy. Prototypes have been built, but it's still not something that's easy to do. BMW did quite a bit of work in this direction, but backed off to their "Valvetronic" scheme, which still has a camshaft with other components to give some adjustment potential.

    Most of the existing schemes for tweaking valve timing still involve camshafts, but there's an additional mechanical linkage which allows adjustment of phase angle, valve travel, or both. That's an idea which goes back to steam engine design. Most of the gear on the side of a steam locomotive is there to adjust valve timing. Steam engines are controlled by valve duty cycle, not throttling. This was the original pulse-width-modulation system. On steam engines, valve phase can be adjusted far enough to reverse the engine, which is how locomotives back up. Some newer marine diesels have that feature, too. Eliminates the need for a reverse gear.

    So this isn't a new idea. It's an old idea that's hard to make work cost-effectively. Somebody may crack this thing; it's a tough mechanical engineering problem, but not an impossible one.

  22. Re:Killed in "development"? by c6gunner · · Score: 4, Funny

    What's the over/under that this technology will be bought by ford / gm and killed in development?
    About the same as the odds that those chemtrail spraying planes that keep circling your house may have accidentally caused a malfunction in your rectally-implanted alien mind-probe.
  23. Ah, the mandatory conspiracy theory by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Informative

    What's the over/under that this technology will be bought by ford / gm and killed in development?


    Ah, yes, the mandatory conspiracy theory. Get this, this is just variable valve timing which by now a _lot_ of car manufacturers _already_ use, with various degrees of sophistication. This one may be slightly more efficient, but the important thing is that steps in that exact direction have been made, and there is already a healthy competition in that domain.

    If you'll kindly read that Wikipedia page, you'll notice that both Ford and GM, since you name-and-shame them, _already_ offer engines with variable valve timing. GM has worked on theirs since 1975, and built automobiles equipped with, say, their Northstar System since at least the 90's.

    So, you know, even as conspiracy theories go, this one... shall we say, fails to be entertaining at least. It is lacking in the suspension-of-disbelief quality. It's akin to asking me to believe that Boeing is trying to kill the jet engine... never mind that they're already using them.
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  24. Pointless by twifosp · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Improving a piston driven engine is absolutely pointless. There are already moer effecient alternatives out there.

    Such as the Quasiturbine engine

    Or the wankel, or Rotary, engine which is even used today. While the rotary might not get better gas mileage than a piston engine, it certain produces more power per displacement than a piston engine. Furthermore, the newest rendetion of the wankel, the Renesis, developed by Mazda already uses some of the benefits that this engine supposedly does. Namely with the exhaust ports.

    The design of the piston engine is flawed. Moving up and down robs your engine of momentum and is just plain silly. Going around in circles produces much more power. If only the Wankel engine, or better yet, the quasiturbine engine had as much R/D put into them as piston engines, we'd have a lot better combustion based engines.

  25. Re:Variable valve timing by eggfoolr · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yay the rotary! Considering there's only one car manufacturer putting development in the the wankel engine the RX8 is an amazing achievement. Imagine if it had the same R&D poured into it as the piston engine!

    Pistons are fundamentally flawed, they go up and stop then down and stop... what's up with that?

    Anyway a 15% improvement in efficiency will only result in 15% bigger SUV's.... I know how you Americans think!

  26. Prior Art by sunderland56 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Boy, this sure sounds a lot like what Valeo announced last year.

  27. Re:Killed in "development"? by TigerNut · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Both Honda and Toyota have been building variable valve timing engines for the last five or six years... That part of it (at least in a basic form) is no longer a research project. Before VVT technology, you could build an engine that developed 240 BHP from 1.6 litres of displacement (such as the Formula Atlantic spec, Toyota 4AGZE based 16 valve engine), but it would have a power band that spanned maybe from 7000 to 9500 RPM. With VVT the usable power band is broadened such that there are now several production cars with engines topping 100 horsepower per litre of displacement, and they have street-friendly powerbands to boot.

    --

    Less is more.

  28. Re:Pretty Low I Would Say ... What Motive Is There by TheGavster · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It was our litigous society that killed the EV-1. There was a time when you could sell things and let the buyer bear the risk that it breaks. Nowadays, if you don't agree to support a car and pay for damages, you get sued.

    --
    "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
  29. Re:Killed in "development"? by dal20402 · · Score: 2, Informative

    2006 Malibu sales = approximately 175,000.
    2006 Silverado sales = approximately 675,000 (with a shortened model year.)

    On top of that, over half of the Malibu sales were to fleets.

    I think we know which side Detroit's bread is buttered on.

  30. Re:Killed in "development"? by the_macman · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't believe oil companies have any incentive to kill things that reduce the quantity of oil we need

    Don't be so naive. Both American Car companies AND oil companies have a vested interest in keeping things status quo. They are greedy bastards and want to wrench every penny from you. Don't believe me? Go watch this movie
  31. hype; need full-hydrocarbon fuel cell by dltaylor · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This article, as has been, and will be, pointed out throughout the comments is not news, very interesting, or likely to yield much of practical value.

    Non-crankshaft-linked valve timing, whether through variation mechanisms that are in current street car use, or electric/pneumatic/hydraulic actuators, such as the F1 engines have used for years do not solve the problem of heat control. Burning fuel (which is why some parts of the combustion chamber are hotter than others; get a clue) generates heat. Some of that heat expands gases to push pistons (or rotors) and a lot of heat raises the temperature of the engine components. Without cooling the engine, the accumulated heat destroys the materials. This is why my air-cooled Ducati engine has a lower power output than the water-cooled Ducati engine of the same (roughly) displacement. The water-cooled engines can keep the components at a lower (and more consistent, I know) temperature, so they can use more air and fuel to generate more power (the extra valves are only usable because the additional heat can be managed).

    The real solution is to use more of the chemical energy to provide power for moving the vehicle and less of it to heat the components. Trying to store the energy in rechargeable batteries will result in mostly short-range urban and novelty vehicles for a very long time, since the energy density of the storage, both in mass and volume, and recharge rate are pathetic compared to diesel, gasoline, or compressed propane/methane.

    The "hydrogen solution", applied as an internal combustion fuel, has the same problems, plus the additional headaches of generating the hydrogen ("but solar is cheap" - and it will compete directly for surface area with homes, farms, and the large-scale installations needed to power your iPod's recharger since we'll be trading power between sunlit and darkened regions) and transferring it between fuel station storage and vehicle storage. Hydrogen fuel cells, still with the generating, storage, and transfer problems, are pretty good at converting between chemical and electrical energy, and electric motors are usably efficient at converting electrical energy into motion.

    What we need are fuel cells that can handle ALL of the chemical energy in a hydrocarbon fuel, converting not just the stored hydrogen and oxygen from the air into water (2 H2 + O2 = 2 H2O; put energy in to break up the hydrogen and oxygen molecules then get energy back by combining the hydrogen and oxygen atoms into water), but also using the carbon atoms in the fuel molecules to make CO2 which gives a larger net energy output by mass of fuel.

    As for "CO2 is a greenhouse gas": So what? We're already too far down the path. The paleohistoric record of ice-age cycles shows that we have already passed the inflection point to cooling while we're accelerating the heating. If you want to reduce the CO2 footprint of humans, along with ending overfishing of the oceans, sucking the deep aquifers dry, destruction of the rain forests for farmland, habitat destruction for either human use or by diversion of fresh water resources, pollution by agricultural runoff, ..., reduce the number of humans by 6 billion, or so. Unless you do that, nothing else will matter. Additional terrestrial hydrocarbon fuel resources are becoming quite hard to reach and there's too much demand to get by easily on biological sources alone. Improving the efficiency by which we use the fuel helps us, regardless of the other issues.

  32. Variable valve actuation a "major leap"?!? by avxo · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'm sorry, but variable valve actuation is not a major leap today. It was a major leap a decade or so ago.

    Indeed, Renault had been actively researching electromagnetic valve actuation and infinitely variable lift and timing systems for their F1 engines since at least the mid 90's. I believe that at least some of their engines have used such electromagnetic actuators in the past, in combination with pneumatic springs (which are not really "springs" in the traditional sense, but function in a similar way) although I can't find a specific reference to that effect.

    And then, of course, there is Valeo. You see, in 2005, at the Frankfurt Motor Show, it introduced a system that replaced camshafts with electromagnetically actuated valves and it claims that it will be available to manufacturers in volume in 2009. More details, including a pretty image, can be found here.

    Now, coming up with smarter management software (which seems to be implied by the article), that can take advantage of per-cylinder (and per-valve) actuation by using such tricks as re-introduction of exhaust gases from previous cycles into the cylinder sounds very promising, and could help increase power, improve mileage, reduce emissions and lengthen the life of catalytic converters.

  33. "no other explanation" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Unfortunately, you are wrong. It has everything to do with normal accounting and taxes. The tax code was altered to allow rather hefty deductions for those class of vehicles for a lot of people and professions, so the demand went up considerably, and it killed off the smaller normal family station wagon, which it has replaced.

  34. Damn right by Bozdune · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a complete idiot when it comes to car repair, but in 1976 I replaced the head gasket on my Oldsmobile Rocket 350 V8 with a couple of adjustable wrenches. Super easy to work on.

    I remember when the heater core went -- no sweat, pull the hose off the heater core input, plug it back into the block, done deal. Six months later when I had the money I pulled the heater core and replaced it.

    Front bearings need to be repacked? Piece of cake. Just don't forget the cotter pin that holds the whole damn wheel on, and you're good to go.

    Car was unbeatable in a straight line. Handled like crap otherwise, though, but who cared. Nothing like a 350 with a racing transmission and a 4 barrel off the line, baby.

    Nowadays, I open the hood and it's a sea of hose assemblies and pipes, can't even see the block. If you buy the shop manual, you find out the first thing you need is a zillion-dollar set of metric torque wrenches before you even start. Screw that.

    Then the solenoid went on my Honda Accord, and I found out you can't buy a solenoid any more. You have to buy the whole "alternator assembly" which includes alternator, solenoid, voltage regulator, and God knows what else -- to the tune of $400. I came THIS CLOSE to ripping the goddamn "alternator assembly" apart and fixing the solenoid myself, except I actually have to work for a living. So frustrating.

  35. engine displacement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    While the rotary might not get better gas mileage than a piston engine, it certain produces more power per displacement than a piston engine.

    Well, no actually. A rotary such as the current Mazda 1.3 litre simply spins faster than the equivalent piston engine. The volume passed per unit of time is the relevant comparison, not the static displacement.

    Since the RX8 competes with similar HP sports cars by guzzling at SUV rates, it indicates Mazda's best effort so far is still inferior in power conversion of the gasoline. (Though the smoothness is great fun.)

    As for turbines, same deal really. The aircraft turbine has yet to match piston engines on efficiency for short flights. You have to run long-haul at cruise altitude before the overall fuel consumption is lower.

    The idea of a completely spinning engine is very seductive, but the actual results of forty years of careful research has not delivered a spinning engine that's better than the 'tossing potatos'. This is counter intuitive, and it's entire worth your while to dig into the studies to find out why that is.
    1. Re:engine displacement by ms139us · · Score: 2

      Well, no actually. A rotary such as the current Mazda 1.3 litre simply spins faster than the equivalent piston engine. The volume passed per unit of time is the relevant comparison, not the static displacement.

      Since the RX8 competes with similar HP sports cars by guzzling at SUV rates, it indicates Mazda's best effort so far is still inferior in power conversion of the gasoline.
      A production rotary, like the Renesis, actually rotates slower than a piston engine. The RX-8 redlines at 9,000 RPM, but the crankshaft is spinning at three times the rotor speed. At redline, the rotor is turning at 3,000 RPM.

      The reason for the high power to displacement ratio (232 hp from 1.3 liter) is the same reason the engine is banned from many racing circuits. For the following math, ignore volumetric efficiency.

      In a piston engine, half of the displacement is moved each rotation of the crankshaft. So, a 1 liter piston engine spinning at 6,000 RPM will move 6,000 x 1 / 2 = 3,000 liters of air per minute.

      A rotary engine moves the full displacement each rotation of the crankshaft. So, a 1 liter rotary engine spinning at 6,000 RPM will move 6,000 liters of air per minute.

      Here's where it gets fun. At 6,000 RPM, the rotor is only moving at 2,000 RPM. Suppose you want to compare internal rotating component speeds and look at a 1 liter rotary with the rotor spinning at 6,000 RPM. This engine will displace 18,000 liters of air per minute.

      At the same internal speed and displacement, the rotary engine will move 6x the air of a piston engine. Rotary engines are less efficient, so they produce less power per liter of air moved.
  36. Re:repairng your own vehicle by Strider- · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To me, modern vehicles are eminently more reparable than the old ones, but that's because I'm an electronics geek I suppose. Because the thing is mostly fly-by-wire, it's dead easy for me to go in with a laptop and dump the codes to figure out what's wrong with the system.

    Take for example my friend's VW Bug... Engine was running rather roughly, and showing the "check engine light". Plugged in my laptop, dumped the codes, and one of the diagnostic codes was showing a vacuum line failure. Sure enough, we replace the appropriate vacuum line, engine runs fine after that. Sure, a seasoned mechanic would probably have figured that one out immediately, but to an office geek like me, the electronic diagnostics were a godsend.

    The primary difference between modern vehicles and the ones from the days of yore is that there is a different skill set required to work on them. Now, on top of being able to turn a wrench, you need electronics and computing experience.

    --
    ...si hoc legere nimium eruditionis habes...
  37. Desmodromic.... by slacktide · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ducati has been building a system to mechanically control valve closing for quite a while... the desmodromic cylinder head. One cam opens the valve, the other closes it. http://www.ducatidesmo.com/valves.htm

  38. Re:Killed in "development"? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 3, Informative

    I don't believe oil companies have any incentive to kill things that reduce the quantity of oil we need

    Don't be so naive. Both American Car companies AND oil companies have a vested interest in keeping things status quo. They are greedy bastards and want to wrench every penny from you. Don't believe me? Go watch this movie Ah, "Who Killed the Electric Car". A balanced an measured analysis, of course, and not a biased propaganda piece, to judge by the title. (snort)

    You want to know the deal with the EV-1? California bureaucrats thought they could wave a magic wand (i.e. use laws) to make technology advance. GM whipped up a quick electric car out of off the shelf parts, but at the same time sued to have the mandatory production rules reversed. The problem with fielding a vehicle like the EV-1 is that GM is then required to support that car for ten years after the date of manufacture. The owner of the vehicle has to pay for it, but GM would be required to maintain a full supply of parts and a staff of mechanics capable of servicing those vehicles. This would not be a trivial expense. The more EV-1's sold, the more expense. The arbitrarily short timetable mandated by the CARB made ramping up such a service system doubly expensive. The temporary rental scheme was something of a short term loophole that put them technically in compliance and bought them enough time to litigate the CARB into submission without incurring a long term maintenance liability. The thorough destruction of said vehicles is to ensure that no one will ever be able to hold them to their mandated parts and service obligation should they ever somehow get their hands on one.
    --
    If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  39. Re:repairng your own vehicle by cloudmaster · · Score: 2, Informative

    By "special tools" I think you mean "enough knowledge/confidence to not fear wiring" (and the oil change reset tool, maybe). :) The same tools I use to rebuild the 350 in my '71 Chevelle are useful to rebuild the engine in my '95 LT1 Caprice and my '04 Grand Marquis - and I'm pretty sure there were some metric wrenches required on your '78 Malibu. With new cars, though, I also have a computer that can tell me roughly what's wrong, which is pretty handy. The '95, actually, I bought specifically because of the computer. It's *sooo* much easier to get the fuel mixture right with fuel injection than with a carburetor (my '71 Chevelle and '75 El Camino are still carb'd onl (with an electronic overdrive transmission too, gasp!), EFI will be pretty much mandatory. You just can't [reasonably] make a carb alter its mixture based on the ethanol content in the tank at any given time. Megasquirt can, though.

    BTW, the compression tester, vacuum gauge, dwell meter, oil pump primer, timing gear puller, and piston ring compressor from rebuilding the '78 aren't useful for much of anything outside of auto repair... Nor can you transfer the skill required to install that stupid short hose connecting the water pump to the intake manifold on a Chevy big block. ;)

  40. Re:you're right..... freakin tax loophole by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just a nitpick, But a loop hole is an unintended use of a law. This is no loophole by any means. It is a law that was created and enacted on purpose without regard to some suspect of thinking it was covered differently then it was used.

    Now when you consider the law was there for farmers, you have to consider what the law does. It classifies medium duty and heavy duty vehicles a little differently then light duty and so on. But An SUV is definatly necessary for a farmer even in the passenger state. You see, Farmers are more likely to have a family then most small car envirogreen people are. So when they need to load up the kids and goto the feed store, they need room for the kids. When they load up the trailer and haul cattle to market or take the livestock to shows, they need a place for the family to to ride without having to follow in a separate car using twice as much energy, oil, wear and tear on the roads, and maintenance.

    Have you ever attempted to fit a 5 year old, A 2 year old in a car-seat, your wife and yourself into the front of a pickup truck? You may be fine riding in the back, but I don't think the kids will be. Especially in 20 degree (f) weather or rain.

    The law is intended to allow the vehicles to have power to haul things, tow things, and get things done efficiently. Sometimes people other then farmers need to do this. Sometimes people who will never do this want to be able to if ever neccesary. Sometime people want the room, ground clearence and everything associated with an SUV that makes the cars weigh too much under the light duty standards. If an SUV get half the fuel economy of a car, then the people are paying twice as much in fuel taxes as your small car is. We live in a free society, Why should we stop someone from buying something that isn't anymore dangerous then other cars or doesn't hurt anyone when used properly?

  41. this is news how? by OKCfunky · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This has been known for quite sometime now.
    It's nothing new, and hardly something applicable in the short term.
    If it's pneumatic valves, wouldn't last near long enough and prohibitively expensive ala certain Formula engines.
    Electric valves, 24V or any other, do not have the capability to survive in a reliable and flawless manner in a stressful life, i.e. high rpm, high heat, long term capability, all at the same time. When I don't have to fear a solenoid fritzing and nuking a $30K SBC, then I'll make that jump.
    Rotary valves, while nifty, are likewise prohibitively expensive in the short term outside of nicely lined sponsored rides. I'm not looking to blow an easy 60K on a perfectly balanced durable big block to reel 10K. While it'd be cool, theres a hell of a lot cheaper and easier ways to get ridiculous power out of current solutions.

    How about more development into the cerametallic blocks, bore liners, pistons, heads etc. ? It'd be nice to have a ridiculous low thermal expansion rate, so that way you can have a far better seal, higher efficiency, you know... useful things.

    1. Re:this is news how? by snarkasaurus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Makes you wonder where the car maker's brains are, doesn't it?

      Foamed metal composites are available, http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?WO=1991/03578 and metal reinforced ceramics, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cermet , both of which are being used to good effect in the racing world. You'd think a foamed aluminum engine block with ceramet cylinder liners on a rotary platform would kick some serious ass.

      Easy for us though, eh? If it was all that easy it'd be done by now. Probably like flying cars, its harder than one would think.

  42. Re:How do you work the valves? by Vegeta99 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well sure, the electric actuators create an additional load on the alternator, but the engine doesn't get to spin the 20 pound (times 4, on a DOHC, V style engine) cams and compress the valve springs with free energy, either. I bet electric actuators are more efficient.

  43. BMW beat them to the punch.... by KrisJon · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In 1991 BMW started using variable intake valves. Now both intake and exhaust valves are variably controlled via the DME (brain). You don't even have a throttle in the normal sense, just different valve timing controlled by the computer. http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/vanos.htm

  44. So borrow/rent a proper towing car when needed.. by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If you need to tow something "on occasion" you could borrow/rent a proper towing vehicle for that.

    You'll tow better/easier and you won't be driving around in a monster for the rest of the year.

    --
    No sig today...
  45. Re:you're right..... freakin tax loophole by Bob+Gelumph · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I for one don't think that anyone should be stopped from having an SUV. I just think they shouldn't be given tax breaks. If you have a big family, many countries will give you 'Baby Bonuses' or similar. Why on earth would you give a big family a tax break based on the car they purchase?
    If you really need an SUV, then you should be free to buy one, or if you are rich enough and can afford the vehicle with the same rate of tax that would be applied to a normal vehicle. Giving tax breaks on SUVs promotes the use of them independent of the reason for getting one, and a good reason to not encourage that is that the resources that the SUV munches through are constrained. One day the oil will run out and the unnecessary use of SUVs is just making that day arrive sooner.

    --
    I'm gonna need a spec.
  46. Prior art by threaded · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I built one of 'electronic-camshafts' in my workshop about 20 years ago, fitted to the engine of an old Honda 2 cylinder motorcycle. The increase in power and efficiency was so startling that I went as far as applying for a patent. Then found it'd been patented about 15 years earlier still. Bit of a waste of time and money. At least nowadays one can sit with a stack of CDs or even Google and search these things yourself.

  47. Hmm: "making them as efficient as diesel engines" by Tungbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why not just use diesel....

  48. Re:you're right..... freakin tax loophole by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I for one don't think that anyone should be stopped from having an SUV. I just think they shouldn't be given tax breaks. If you have a big family, many countries will give you 'Baby Bonuses' or similar. Why on earth would you give a big family a tax break based on the car they purchase?

    I don't know the specific wording or intent of the tax breaks so I am really guessing on the why it was giving. But I do know that pickup trucks and such get pinged to death on other taxes built into the vehicle and maintenance.

    First, mosts states apportion license and registration fees by weight. You will notice truck license plate registrations are $20 or so more then a car's. And the heavier the vehicle goes, the more it costs with this being really apparent when you goto commercial tags.

    Next, Tires. There is a DOT tax on every tire produced and sold in America that is DOT rated. This DOT rating means it is legal to use on the road, if it isn't DOT rate or approved, if can only be used for off road driving. However there is an exception, very large truck tires that could be used on the road but sold for offroad use have a smaller tax added but you face fines and penalties if the catch you using them on the road. This tax is hidden into the costs of the tire and paid by the manufacturer when the tire is produced like they do with cigarettes. Getting a rebate on this tax because you won't be using the truck in the ways the tax was structured seems appropriate.

    Third, My understanding of the tax was to encourage the purchase or newer more efficient vehicles and the more these vehicles cost, the more the break. Now before we get into efficient, you cannot judge this by what other efficient vehicle is on the market today because the intent as I understand it was to get the older less efficient and more polluting vehicles off the road Not to encourage the purchase of the most efficient vehicle in the future.

    If you really need an SUV, then you should be free to buy one, or if you are rich enough and can afford the vehicle with the same rate of tax that would be applied to a normal vehicle. Giving tax breaks on SUVs promotes the use of them independent of the reason for getting one, and a good reason to not encourage that is that the resources that the SUV munches through are constrained. One day the oil will run out and the unnecessary use of SUVs is just making that day arrive sooner.

    I'm not concerned with what someone else drives and I'm especially not concerned with what raw materials they use. The fact is, we will be switching away from using oil based fuels soon anyways. Although once the switch is started, it will take 25-50 years to complete because of the way people buy cars. The poorer you are, the older cars you buy it seems. I have one that is almost 40 years old now (1969).

    The science and economy of the next generation fuels just hasn't materialized yet. We have a couple of hundred years before we will be out of oil and as long as we are working on it, we won't. But as long as SUVs are on the road and refining capacity limited, the demand for more efficient vehicles and other fuel types will remain high. More has been done since the gas prices started rising again in 1997 then anytime in the past century on getting more efficient cars or using other sources of energy. And it didn't take a law to accomplish this either. Of course the companies working on it get the benifit of claiming they are saving the planet and such, but don't mistake associated credit for motivation. They are doing it because there seems to be enough demand to make the risk of investment seem profitable.

    Thats right, companies are developing these product and alternative fuels/hybred motors and cars in order to make a profit not to spend money that won't be regained because it is a feel good story. If the enviroment wasn't as charge politically and the people were pissed about the costs of gas, this never would have happened. T