Slashdot Mirror


New Zealand Rejects Office For Macs

An anonymous reader writes "The New Zealand Ministry of Education has declined to renew a licensing deal for MS Office on 25,000 Macintosh computers in the country's schools. The Education Minister has suggested that schools use the free alternative NeoOffice. The article quotes a school principal who pointed out that the NeoOffice website warns users to expect problems and bugs: 'That's not the sort of software we should be expecting kids in New Zealand to be using.'" Schools are free to buy their own copies of Office. A blog on the New Zealand Herald site argues that the Ministry should have paid Microsoft this time, but not renewed the deal and instead developed a transition plan to open source.

28 of 317 comments (clear)

  1. Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about, expect problems and bugs with any software?

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    1. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by rucs_hack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's the trouble Open Source gets from being honest. Microsoft just hides the bugs and creates an illusion of problem free computer usage. Then they insist you keep windows update running all the time....

      In this case I think the fast transition will cause grumbles, but then again, if they waited the MSN (Microsoft Sales Ninjas) would be inbound, and before they knew it everyone would be parrotting the microsoft literature and the switch would be forgotten.

    2. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by jintxo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Well, they sort of DID choose Open Office, except that they chose the native MacOS X port of it instead of the "plain" version.

      http://www.neooffice.org/neojava/es/index.php

    3. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by jimstapleton · · Score: 4, Informative
      Except that NeoOffice seems to think they have more potential for bugs than MS office, and even go so far as to suggest that people use MS office instead for critical things. This is straight from their faq.

      Who should use NeoOffice?

      NeoOffice is not perfect. Although we try very hard to make NeoOffice free of bugs and crashes, our users still find new bugs and new cases that cause NeoOffice to crash. So, if you feel that you need software that has been heavily tested, we recommend that you use a commercially-supported product like Microsoft Office.
      --
      34486853790
      Connection too slow for X forwarding? Try "ssh -CX user@host"
    4. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by suv4x4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's the trouble Open Source gets from being honest. Microsoft just hides the bugs and creates an illusion of problem free computer usage. Then they insist you keep windows update running all the time....


      You know, I'm surprised at the Orwellian speak coming from both the likes of Microsoft and the anti-Microsoft crowd.

      We don't have Microsoft just "fixing bugs", oh no. We have Microsoft "HIDING bugs and creating the ILLUSION of problem free computer usage".

      How on Earth do you create the *illusion* of problem free computer usage? You let Word crash and popup a box "Calm down user, this was just a part of your problem free computer usage"?

      Office works fine enough, the sad part in all of this, is they don't have good enough competitors, because they have stagnated for years and years.

      Then Office 2007 which offered lots of innovation in the interface, features, wizard etc. But why? Is it because Open Source was picking up and MS Office were terrible at "hiding bugs"? No, it's because people just got stuck with Office 97: Microsoft's competing with their own software.

      It's sad.

    5. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by Khuffie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So you're basing your judgement on Office and Windows circa 10 years ago?

    6. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 4, Informative
      There are two Mac ports of OpenOffice. The official one began by using X11 and is now using Carbon (and will eventually transition to Cocoa in places). This is a clean architecture, and will adopt the OS X look and feel, but is not yet ready for use. The other option is NeoOffice, which was a quick and dirty port that has then been refined significantly. At the moment, the choices are:
      1. OpenOffice in X11, which is ugly, and doesn't integrate with the rest of the system.
      2. OpenOffice for Mac, which is unstable and is only available in source form.
      3. NeoOffice, which is fairly stable, doesn't need X11, and works now.
      Unfortunately, the work done by the NeoOffice team is licensed under the GPL, and so can't be pushed back upstream to the OpenOffice, which is LGPL. NeoOffice is a fork, and will remain so unless they decide to change their license, and so will need to pull changes down from upstream periodically. The OpenOffice native port stays in sync with changes in the main tree automatically.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Maybe that's true, but they also feel that NeoOffice is stable enough for everyday use. From the front page:

      Released as free, open source software under the GNU General Public License (GPL), NeoOffice is fully functional and stable enough for everyday use. The software is actively developed, so improvements and small updates are made available on a regular basis.

      also the same FAQ says:

      NeoOffice is a reasonably stable version of the OpenOffice.org office suite that has been engineered to run natively on Mac OS

      I've not used NeoOffice, but to me, this sounds like the software is in the stage Firefox was in just before hitting 1.0 -- stable enough for everyday use; maybe there are a few bugs, but they get fixed quickly so downloading the latest release is usually a good idea before filing a bug report.

    8. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by CarpetShark · · Score: 5, Informative

      Sounds a lot like Debian's idea of "unstable", which other people think of as "stable", or their idea of "stable", which other people think of as "military grade".

    9. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by klubar · · Score: 4, Funny

      Funny, I find the the open office always crashes if I remove the ram in the middle of anything. Must be buggy.

    10. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by El+Lobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Great example.Both of them are produced by hardhare problems. The same problem in Linuzz would cause a Kernel panic. Not, not blue, but BLACK..

      --
      It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
    11. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by Zigg · · Score: 4, Informative

      I've personally seen the IRQL error several times on machines that run Linux flawlessly (and more often!) If it's something that rears its head only when there's bad hardware, then Linux must be a magical operating system that can turn bad hardware into good.

    12. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Informative

      If you're trying to suggest BSODs are a thing of the past, I have just two things to say:

      PAGE_FAULT_IN_NONPAGED_AREA
      IRQ_NOT_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL


      Those are due to driver bugs. Page fault in non paged area means a bad pointer - you touched a page that was marked as not present, but since the area is unpaged the OS can't do anything to fix it.

      IRQL not less than or equal is more interesting. NT has a concept of IRQL. It's an abstraction, and it means which interrupts are enabled. The lowest level in kernel mode is PASSIVE_LEVEL which means the scheduler is enabled. The next highest level is DISPATCH_LEVEL where it is not. Above that are the hardware interrupt levels. Now consider a spinlock, an OS synchronisation primitive. These are to protect shared resources. Drivers call KeAcquireSpinLock() to get them, do some stuff and then KeReleaseSpinLock() to release them. On a SMP system, KeAcquireSpinLock needs to raise IRQL and then acquire the lock. On a single processor system it just raises the IRQL.

      http://ext2fsd.sourceforge.net/documents/irql.htm

      So IRQL in Windows NT is very important thing. If the system is running at a raised IRQL, someone is holding a spinlock, or an interrupt is in progress.

      Lots of kernel routines are documented in the DDK as being only callable at a certain maximum IRQL. Typically, IRQL_NOT_LESS_THAN_OR_EQUAL is caused by touching paged data at a raised IRQL which can't work as the pager risks a deadlock when it tries to acquire spinlocks to page it in, or less likely by calling a function which is documented as not being callable at that IRQL.

      If you look at the stackframe, you can see which driver is to blame and either disable or update it. If the system has always been unstable, check the RAM.

      Interestingly enough, Microsoft are experimenting with static code analysis and automated test cases to catch driver errors like this

      http://www.inf.uni-konstanz.de/soft/teaching/ws05/ seminar/scpresentation.pdf

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    13. Re:Expect problems and bugs with OS software? by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are you grounding yourself? This is critically important if you're removing RAM while the computer is running. To ground yourself, simply touch your hand to your stomach. Don't touch your belt buckle,or you could electrocute yourself.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  2. MS Office has plenty of bugs too... by baptiste · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The article quotes a school principal who pointed out that the NeoOffice website warns users to expect problems and bugs: 'That's not the sort of software we should be expecting kids in New Zealand to be using.'
    Just because Microsoft doesn't include this disclaimer on their website doesn't make MS Office any less buggy. This guy's students have been using buggy software their whole lives, from MS and others. Welcome to the information age. At least NeoOffice is being upfront about it.
  3. How much? by igny · · Score: 5, Interesting

    How much do they save, and is there a way to invest some of this money into further development of NeoOffice?

    --
    In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. - Yogi Berra
    1. Re:How much? by Domstersch · · Score: 5, Interesting

      It's unclear how much money they save. The total licensing deals the government has made with Microsoft are speculated to be worth about NZ$100 million (US$72m) over the next ten years. But the Maharey, the Minister of Education, said the dispute was regarding NZ$2.7m worth of Microsoft Office licenses that would not (otherwise) be used (because the macs in question aren't currently using Office) but which Microsoft insisted the Ministry pay for.

      So, we know they're saving more than $2.7m and less than $100m, but we're not told exactly how much.

      By the way, macs aren't extensively used outside of primary (roughly, elementary schools) and intermediate (school years 7-8) in New Zealand. Every high school I can think of (many) have one or two macs at most, and classes full of PCs. So, to my mind, Le Sueur is wrong, and NeoOffice _is_ the sort of software we can expect kids to use. It's unreasonable to claim five to twelve year olds have a need for (supposedly) superior, high-class spreadsheets, databases and business presentations.

      --
      =w=
  4. Death Knell by ehaggis · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Unfortunately the Ministry of Education has probably signed a death warrant for the adoption of an open source office package. Without planning, forethought, notice and buy-in, most projects will die on the branch. This is a poor introduction for many to open source software and will leave a sour taste.

    --
    One ring to bind them - should probably have more fiber and less rings in their diet.
    1. Re:Death Knell by Chuq · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But in a school environment you'll run across hundreds of teachers who simply don't want to re-learn how to use a word-processor.

      That's funny, when I was at school I was taught on ClarisWorks on Apples and Win3.1 at school, and used MS Word 5 on DOS at home. Now I used MS Office 2k/2003 on XP at work and OpenOffice.org on XP/Ubuntu at home. I thought learning how to use a computer meant just that - learning how to use a computer, not learning how to use Microsoft software.

      --
      - Chuq
  5. It'll do the job. by LaminatorX · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wouldn't trust NeoOffice to seamlessly handle a giant shared/published spreadsheet with lots of custom macros for dozens of users across a multi-office corporate WAN. OTOH, I'd trust it without hesitation to do anything a k-12 teacher or student would need to do with it.

    1. Re:It'll do the job. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's what I was going to say -- for graphing a quadratic function or pasting plagiarized text out of Wikipedia, it'll be fine.

  6. Maybe NZ government are just playing it smart! by malsdavis · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If the experiences from U.K. councils and schools looking to ditch Office and Windows is anything to go by, Microsoft will probably return to the New Zealand government with an even better offer!

    Microsoft are terrified of the thought of educational and public authorities ditching MS products as they know that successful operation of non-MS products in these sort of institutions will lead others - and ultimately corporations (their biggest market) - to consider alternatives.

    Several U.K. local councils and schools pay virtually nothing for MS products to prevent them trialling Linux.

  7. Teach Concepts, Not Apps by EzInKy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't understand why schools let themselves get enslaved by proprietary software when kids could learn a whole lot more by experimenting with different solutions to problems.

    --
    Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
  8. Wait until the teachers start complaining. by zerofoo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm the Network Manager for a small private school. Recently, our school was audited, and we found that we were short on our MS office licensing.

    I proposed Open Office as a viable replacement for most of our machines. Administration would continue to use MS Office alongside of Open Office. The school's administration tried Open Office, and after a short learning curve, they liked the software. The only real complaint was that the menus were different from MS Office. Administration assumed that teaching "professionals" would learn the new software and continue on with their jobs.

    It took an entire year, but the whole school was eventually migrated to Open Office, and it worked for most people. A few, very loud teachers, hated it.

    Those very loud teachers made lots of noise - so much so that administration finally coughed up $11,000 for MS Office 2007.

    After another lengthy deployment process, we had Office 2007 in place. Now the very loud teachers are complaining the new software is different from the old stuff.

    You can't win with Teachers.

    -ted

    1. Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining. by jalefkowit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't win with Teachers.

      I think you mean "you can't win with people". In any sufficiently large population, there's going to be a few people who are dramatically more predisposed to griping and/or are dramatically less adaptive to change than the average person. So if it's any consolation, you'd have had to deal with the same idiots no matter what industry you worked in ;-)

    2. Re:Wait until the teachers start complaining. by _LORAX_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You can't win with Teachers.

      I think you mean "you can't win with people".

      Obviously you have never worked in a school with teachers. The easiest way to describe it is a dysfunctional company run democratically by it's employees.
  9. The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong! by SplatMan_DK · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think it is a good thing that they will attempt to make a switch to NeoOffice. But sadly it is for the wrong reasons!

    In reality, it seems like the Education Minister is just being plain old-fashioned cheap.

    If they were serious about using NeoOffice/OpenOffice, but have concerns about the stability of the software, they should consider contributing to the project. There are tons of ways an Education minister can make that happen. He could encourage the IT related universities in his country to make projects that contribute to the products. He could donate cash to the NeoOffice and/or OpenOffice teams - say a mere 5% of the money they would otherwise have spent on commercial licenses? Or he could have contracted a local software company to improve (contribute) to the software for a specified amount.

    Open and free software is good. But choosing it simply because the initial price tag is low (read: nil) is a bad motivation - especially for an Education Minister. And it doesen't really help the product or the community either.

    An Open Source product is only as strong as its ACTIVE contributors.

    --
    My security clearance is so high I have to kill myself if I remember I have it...
    1. Re:The sad thing is: The motive is all wrong! by Domstersch · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Here's a hint as to why this won't happen: it's not the Minister of Education's job to spend my (yep, I'm a kiwi) tax money on helping "the product or the community". But do you know what is his job? To ensure that children in my country get the best education they can. And that means that when he has the choice of donating money to a software development group or spending it on one of the underfunded schools throughout the country, he must spend it on the kids.

      You hear the "somebody, think of the children" argument a lot these days. But this is one case where it applies well. It is Maharey's job to think of the children. And they are best served by using the money elsewhere.

      --
      =w=