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First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue
Peacenik45 writes "The CBC is reporting that First Nations in Manitoba want compensation for every cell phone signal that passes through their land because it violates their airspace. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recently resolved to negotiate revenue sharing with Manitoba Telecom Services. Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nations says "When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do." This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."
I want a precedent set. Then I will also sue for any cell phone waves passing over my private property. They are not the only ones with the "get everything and do nothing" attitude.
So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through? I will take one silver coin, and drop it on the ground, and you may comfort yourself with the sound of the money.
Don't piss off The Angry Economist
Then they should pay for any cell phone signal originating from their territory, too.
And they should be charged for any rain water that evaporated from somewhere else.
Let's total up these charges...wow, looks like they come out even!
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
Seems like a very similar argument could be made against laws that prohibit decrypting signals that pass through one's property
Hacker Public Radio is our Friend
The cellphone companies should respond by treating any call that originates in a First Nations area as a "foreign" call wishing to access their network, and charge the appropriate fees and roaming charges.
I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
Before Europeans came to North America, the native people would use every part of a broadcast signal, instead of wasting it like we do nowadays. Apparently they did the same thing with bison.
Now you know!
I believe that is the same line of reasoning that caused their genocide...
Allow me to state that I am fully in favor of the Native American Nations taking advantage of their status and sucking money away from the surrounding governments. They've had a pretty shitty 500 years, and if they want to take money from dumb white folk at casinos, and let those same folk dodge cigarette taxes, more power to them.
That being said, WTF? They are asserting a "property right" that has been rejected via common, statutory, and international law time and time again. A nation can control physical objects that enter their airspace, but not energy. It's like RFA/Radio Marti - nations may not like broadcasting radio waves into their territory, but there isn't dick-all they can do about it except bitch and moan and try to jam it. But in this case, jamming would be a cure worse than the cause - their own members would lose the same access.
I mean, are they serious?
"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly." A. Carlson
A tinfoil teepee?
The Maori in New Zealand tried to claim airspace and even up where the satelites fly!
http://twm.co.nz/maorispace.htm
"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe."
If you're going to be mad you might as well go the whole hog.
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Drink Coffee - Do Stupid Things Faster And With More Energy!
On first glance it sounds ridiculous; however there is some precedence in the monetization of air:
0 5.html.
. 0.pdf: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1. 0.pdf+lectro-magnetic+spectrum+auctioned&hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1
-The state of New York has filed suit against Ohio for dumping pollution on them through the airwaves http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/mar/mar18a_
-A portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum is going to be auctioned off in the U.S.
"the spectrum is a national resource that should be managed".
PDF: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1
google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:fH_s8JehCyEJ
If governments can make money off the spectrum then why not so-called "First Nation" governments? It really boils down to how much legal and economic authority Indians should have. And it deals with the ambiguity of a people who both want to claim their individuality and distinction from the rest of society, and still be apart of that society, especially when it comes to exploiting natural resources. It's pretty much politics as usual. Seems like the typical having-your-cake-and-eating-it-to mentality.
Spike: I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.
Willow: The preferred term is...
Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.
It doesn't matter. It wasn't our generation, or our great great great great great grandparent's generation. But we're now paying for it like it was. And it's about time it stopped, because it is doing nobody any favours, least of all the native americans.
...Steve
They already get their check every month, now they are trying to milk out more. I have plenty of sympathy and outrage over the past of the way they were treated, but after living near a reservation for three years in the here and now I've let alot of that slide. A large chunk of these people are stuck in the welfare cycle and are just looking for handouts. This is just the latest in a long line of schemes they've been trying on the government to get back what was never taken from the living in the first place. Also it really depends on what ever agreement the particular reservation has with the federal government. They are not sovereign nations, nor are they exempt from federal law.
Denial is rarely a good solution.
...Steve
We (or our parents) had a choice of coming to North America. The Indian nations were here, recognized by the crown (Queen Vicky, lor bless her!) as sovereign nations within the British Empire and their land claims recognized. Then some trumped up judge in London decided to write law from the bench (a.k.a. "activist judge") that said that aboriginals had no claim to their land. In direct violation of treaties and the ruling of the privy council. The government of the day said "What harm could come?" Well, as New Zealand and Canada learned, acting on an invalid judgement is a legal time bomb and as a result, modern Supreme Courts in NZ and Canada have said "That ruling should have never happened -- the land claims and treaties are in tact".
This case isn't about what you think it. A bunch of commissions over the years pointed out the bloody obvious: life on the reserves suck because they were systematically neglected and restricted by the Indian Act on how they could earn a living and still be allowed to live on their land (Part of the goal was to erase the identities and land claims of the original Indian nations and "Westernize" them). So a couple years ago, the Feds and provincial ministers got together with the native bands to figure out how to change things so the native Indians can become self-sufficient and agreed to the Kelowna agreement.
An agreement the current Conservative government unilaterally decided to break. This little stunt is probably going to be the first of many public actions. As some have said, it's going to be a long, hot summer in Canada this year...
(Note, I am not a Native Indian, but a real honest-to-goodness Indian (half actually), but I grew up with native Indians and have great sympathy for them. I also live in Canada and pay taxes so I'm not some unemployed, liberal hippie who won't have to pay for the settlements.
The bitter lessons of a veteran coder: http://bitterprogrammer.blogspot.com
So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through?
To play devil's advocate since half of the posters are bashing Indian people and the other half are foaming at the mouth about how stupid a concept this is...
...spectrum. When one person is using a certain chunk, another can't until their systems are sufficiently isolated enough. Given that the Canadian and US government sold (and continue to sell) this spectrum off for huge, huge chunks of money AND as a result regulate who can use what parts...why shouldn't they be allowed to do the same, if they are a sovereign nation? (if they're not, then that's a different matter.)
There are libertarian-esque viewpoints along the lines of, "oh, we shouldn't control the radio spectrum!" Well, then you end up with your neighbor's radio tower cutting off your portable phone or making your garage door open randomly, and your wireless network causes his car's remote lock fob to not work, and the local fire department's radios are suddenly useless because Bob's Plumbing Supply implemented a digital paging system for their truck fleet.
The world has already settled on cell phone frequencies, but the moral high ground goes to the tribes if Canada didn't consult with them when it signed on to the whole "sure, we'll make cell frequencies in Canada X, Y, and Z", if geography is such that signals from towers in Canada would penetrate to any degree into these territories.
Note, I said the moral high ground- not the practical high ground. The practical high ground goes of course to the cell phone industry and Canada...
Please help metamoderate.
Funny story about Ovide Mercredi. I had the opportunity to meet him in 1992 (I think) when the Assembly of First Nations had their annual conference on Manitoulin Island, in Northern Ontario. At this time, he was the Grand Chief of the Assembly, and recogizable across the country. I grew up on Manitoulin and was working as a waiter/bartender at the hotel/restaurant where he and his entourage were staying during the conference, in a little town called Gore Bay.
:-)
We open up the dining room for dinner early for him and his group (about 10 people), as they had to get to a meeting. I get chosen to serve their table. Hey, it's as close to "celebrity" as I've ever seen in this place, so I consider it somewhat of an honour.
So I introduce myself to the table and run through the spiel. I hand everyone the menus, and then explain the day's "special" (not on the menu). I then explain that all entres come with your choice of pototoes. Now, the kitchen prepared different styles of potatoes: sometimes they were scalloped, or oven roasted, but most often the choices were mashed pototoes or a baked potato. I've been working at this place for a couple of summers now, so the words just flow off my tongue automatically. Plus, I'm a bit nervous, so I'm talking a bit faster than normal. On this afternoon, I say the same thing I've said hundreds of times: "All dinners come with your choice of pototoes: mashed or baked."
Mercredi is in the middle of sipping a glass of water. As I say this, he nearly sprays the water across the table, looks up at me, and blurts out, "What kind of potatoes!?"
Instantly, I (and the rest of the table) realize how the phrase "mashed or baked" can sound if you are being a little rushed!
Naturally, the table explodes with laughter, and I just about kill myself laughing too. They enjoyed the meal, but of course had to make a comment on how "creamy" the mashed potatoes were, and wanted to make sure that they weren't the "mashedorbaked" style of potatoes.
I wonder if he still remembers that afternoon?
Look at the tomato! Isn't it sad? He can't dance! Poor tomato!
who sees where they are coming from? Okay, so I just skimmed the article, but don't most native Americans thing that everything is sacred in some way, including the air? Okay, yes, most of us will sit here and laugh about this, but think about it. You are brought up in a culture where everything is sacred. The water, the earth, the soil, the trees, the air. Someone from another culture upstream decides to build a damn that alters the water and how it flows. Most of us would argue they have a reason for compensation. We come in and decide to cut down their trees, they would want compensation. These to us are physical things that we can put monatary value on. But the natives are seeing it not as just a physical thing, but as a spiritual thing. Extending this thinking to the air waves is not that far of a stretch. And the thought of radio waves are invading their aerospace is actually a really good argument. Most countries that I know of require any device that operates that puts out any type of radio waves or electromagnetic field to be licensed and regulated. Broadcasters and radio operators must pay for braodcast licenses. If there is an Indian nation where we are sending radio waves through their aerospace without paying them a licensing fee, the idea of paying for compensation suddenly does not become so outragious.
What a bunch of horsesh*t.
While I agree the current system doesn't work (in fact, it's absolute garbage which likely exacerbates the problem), pretty much everything else you've said is crap, IMO. I've been to quite a few reserves in Manitoba, and I don't see very many silver spoons in people's mouths. There are plenty of reserves that are absolute holes, where residents don't even own the crappy thirty year old run-down trailers they live in (not allowed to own them on some reserves, from my understanding). No sewage, no garbage pick up, no pavement, mud, no jobs, a laissez faire attitude by the RCMP toward crime (hence lots of juvenile vandalism, arson etc.). What's the option? Move to the city and get a job? Kind of tough when the immediate assumption by too many people, yourself included (I'd guess), is "lazy Indian expecting free hand outs.".
AFAICT, it isn't "current land claims they are proposing", but existing agreements they want honoured. Personally, I want my government to keep its word, even if it costs me. Some of these treaties are fairly recent (government agreements with natives during the world wars to get them to fight etc).
And since when did non-violent civil disobedience become "terrorist antics". You might as well paint Rosa Parks with the same brush.
If 45% of your taxes are largely going to the Indians, you need a new accountant (either that, or I need yours).
being single, white, male and in my thirties, I can speak out, but I have no recourse, I want my government to honour its agreements. Who knows, it might help.
Spot on. There's precedent in New Zealand for the sharing of spectrum sale revenue with the Maori population.
Ultimately, spectrum is a valuable shared resource like any other. If governments are making money from selling it and they have treaty obligations to indigenous populations they're probably going to have to share that revenue. Of course it all depends on how strong the original treaty is. In New Zealand, the Maori kicked some serious butt when the Poms arrived. They negotiated a fairly strong treaty and consequently they have significantly more legal rights than, for example, Australian Aborigines.
One of these days I'm moving to Theory - everything works there
Life on reserves is difficult, and I would say that native people are the most disenfranchised in Canada (to Americans reading this: they get treated with the same respect that black people get treated in the southern states.) However, I have seen no evidence that spousal abuse happens on the scale you claim. I'd go further. I believe that Native Americans are easily the most discriminated against racial group in North America, for evidence simply look at the media. Shows, movies, they always have their representative minority characters, black, indian, arabic, asian, it's not uncommon to see a very positive portrayal of a person from one of these groups in the media. Now think about portrayals of Natives, when is the last time you've seen a native actor in a movie or television show who isn't either some kind of medicine man, unsavory charcter from a reserve, or some other caricature?
There are ONLY TWO examples I can think of in all the media I've seen.
The most familiar to
My home town was next to a large reservation and as a result my high school had a lot of native students. There were some real nice smart kids among them, and I can just about guarantee that none of them went to university. Can't blame them of course, if you had never seen a single example of someone like you actually succeeding in an educated profession how hard would you pursue an education?
If people are really interested in native americans succeeding give them some damn role models! Have a doctor or lawyer show where a primary character is native, smart, and doesn't start talking about native rituals or ancient wisdom every chance they get. Heck even a native Brittney Spears or Brad Pitt to show them they can have sex appeal as natives (there's a reason that many native kids in my school started emulating black hip-hop culture).
I stole this Sig
If Natives really did care about 'their' land, air, water etc ... instead of suing for revenues from a harmless radio signal service that passes their way, and which they also use, they would be suing every company and government entity upwind from them that release any kind of pollution that drifts down to them.
... especially the thousands of them who use their status cards to buy high tax items like cigarettes tax free, just to sell them to anyone who asks at a great profit while still discounted from legal retail. Anyone remember the extreme example, where thousands of cases of cigarettes were smuggles between canada and the USA through native reserves to avoid taxes at great profit to native leaders?
... reverse apartheid. Here's a great right that some natives in Victoria BC have excersized for decades ... the right to theft and vandalism!
... so no collector is safe there either.
... but oops, no water or sewer service because the band didnt get approval and permits for the hookups from the community supplying the services next door. Too bad for the buyers who put down deposits before construction. For a couple years they had to just hold it til they left the reserve. It was on reserve land, so no one went to jail for the scam.
... but no, the native people don't go after their corrupt leaders, heck they aren't criminals, they're idols! so they go after the government and people of canada.
... But bands like the Haida on BC's coast had a long history of invading and pillaging neighbouring tribes. The Kwakuitl band suffered greatly from the Warrior lifestyle of the Haida. But I guess the Haida couldn't take their own medicine when they finally lost their land to the europeans. Maybe this is why the native groups of BC have literally claimed 125% of British Columbia in land claim disputes with the provincial and federal governments. They still can't agree amongst themselves who had taken over what land from what band before the europeans took it all.
This is just another native scam setup to suck money from the productive parts of society so they can stay on reserve.
The natives of canada pay no income tax, and are exempt from various sales taxes if the store is on a reserve. This alone should give them all the advantage they need to get ahead in life
In parts of canada, some native groups have legal rights that no one else in Canada has
Members of the Songhees band have purchased boats and cars with no intention of paying for them. To avoid collection agencies and the police, the stolen items simply stay on the reserve. In the case of one stolen boat, i watched it sit overlooking Admirals Road rotting away unused for probably 20 years. The police won't go on the reserve
For all my life native children from the Songhees band have gotten their kicks by vandalising public and private property and then stepping back onto the reserve before the police can get them. 10's of thousands of dollars have been spent simply to repair a bus stop shelter on Craigflower road that got smashed week after week after week.
How about the Tsawwassen band, that 'sold' (land on reserver is never really sold) fully loaded condos on reserve land to anyone who'd pay, with a beautiful ocean view
All across canada native leaders have been caught in corruption scandals, where millions of dollars have been embezelled while the communities they lead and were supposed to administer with the money are forced to suffer
They have had plenty of time to adapt to the modern world, they sure don't hesitate to use any modern tool like the rest of us including the very cell phones they want to steal money from.
Maybe it's time for native bands in canada to pay back other native bands for stolen land. They'd have you believe they were entirely peaceful until Europeans came along
George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"