First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue

Peacenik45 writes "The CBC is reporting that First Nations in Manitoba want compensation for every cell phone signal that passes through their land because it violates their airspace. The Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs recently resolved to negotiate revenue sharing with Manitoba Telecom Services. Ovide Mercredi of the Grand Rapids First Nations says "When it comes to using airspace, it's like using our water and simply because there's no precedent doesn't mean that it's not the right thing to do." This move may inspire First Nations in other provinces to follow suit."

Comments

Let's hope they win!

[mlawrence]

I want a precedent set. Then I will also sue for any cell phone waves passing over my private property. They are not the only ones with the "get everything and do nothing" attitude.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[davmoo]

You're too late, at least in the US. That's already been tried in the US, with both broadcast radio and TV, as well as satellite TV (both big dish and pizza dish), and cable TV. To my knowledge, no private (non-government) entity has won even the first round of court using that argument. And complaints filed with the FCC have produced nothing but laughter.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[maxume]

Are you ready to claim sovereign rights to your land?

A private land owner getting a decision like that is the kind of thing that would get the constitution amended in the U.S., and would make the Queen angry in Canada.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[palewook]

i wonder if i can sue my neighbor anytime i hear his &&$#! car alarm go off. wait, and the old lady 3 doors down with the barking dog. her too. they all are using the air on my property. (rolls eyes)

Re:Let's hope they win!

[StikyPad]

Exactly!! Because not following the law is proof that.. wait, what?!?

There is no freedom in the US. Don't believe me? Just steal some stuff and get caught and see what happens.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[psykocrime]

Are you ready to claim sovereign rights to your land?

Why not?

For a good discussion of that subject, see http://www.amazon.com/Good-Be-King-Foundation-Cons titutional/dp/1594110964/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-56272 96-5318468?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180583247&sr=1-1


A private land owner getting a decision like that is the kind of thing that would get the constitution amended in the U.S., and would make the Queen angry in Canada.

It doesn't matter what the Constitution says, or what the Queen thinks. Sovereign individuals are just that: sovereign. We are not subjects of the United States government. "We The (Sovereign) People" created the government, and it serves at our pleasure, and we can replace it, destroy it, or ignore it.

The only reason people obey laws and rulings they fundamentally disagree with is threat of force. And right now the US government (and it's accomplices at the State and Local levels) employ more men with guns than any individual can hope to overcome. But that doesn't change the underlying principles. We are all free, sovereign individuals, with absolutely inalienable rights, not subjects.

None of this is - btw - an argument against voluntarily forming associations (call the governments, or whatever) for various purposes where it makes sense for sovereign individuals to work in a communal fashion for the greater good of all. But the point is, any sort of construct of that nature is artificial, created, and cannot preempt the inalienable rights of Freemen.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[Anonymous Coward]

the law in the US does not allow you to own land

This is practically true, though you won't find any literal law to that effect, the only truly owned lands are lands granted by the government with alloidal title, which the government has not done since the revolution. Various forms of alloidal title exist for universities and such, but these are not truly alloidal as the use of the land is restricted to the purpose of the grant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title#Allodi al_title_in_the_United_States

Aside from that bit of history, most people who live in subdivisions today believe that they own their house, but the truth is they merely hold a title that permits them to live in the house under certain circumstances.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[fyngyrz]

In what way is property tax not the same as rent?

You have the ability to choose precisely to whom you pay rent. You can avoid really bad landlords, as well as landlords who would use, or you find out are using, your rent moneys in ways abhorrent to you. You have no such choice with the government. Additionally, when you pay rent, you receive in return a service you desire and are actively attempting to obtain (a place to stay.) When you pay property taxes, you receive what the government decides to give you; you have little (or no) control over your end. For instance, it is one thing for a taxpayer to receive the "service" of schooling if there are children in the house; it is entirely another when there aren't. It is one thing to pay a tax for television transponders if you watch broadcast television. It is entirely another if you don't. It is one thing to see religions exempted from property tax, thus increasing what you must pay, if you support religion. But if you don't... And so on.

So there are differences. The ability to do much about it, however, is questionable. The larger the area you live in, the less effective your vote is; likewise, the more you differ from the average citizen, the less powerful your vote is. Representative democracy as practiced in the US doesn't serve the minority except as an afterthought, or when cornered.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[StikyPad]

Well, let's see..

a) It's a local tax, not a "US law," and some localities may not have property tax. States specify maximum taxes, but not minimum.

b) You might as well ask "what's the difference between my power bill and my gas bill?" The answer is what you get for your money. You aren't paying the government to use your own property; you're paying them for the services within their jurisdiction -- usually schools, water, roads, police, streetlights, etc.

c) It's a TAX. Likewise, try not paying your income tax and see what happens. That doesn't mean you don't have a right to earn a living, but you *also* have an obligation to help maintain our society.

d) "What happens" is usually that a lein is placed against your property, and that lein must be paid if/when the property is sold or transferred. In some localities, the worst thing that happens is that your name is printed in the local paper. In others, sale is forced, in which case you still get all the money after the government takes its cut.

So how is that like rent again, where you have nothing to show for your money, cannot transfer posession of the asset, and are liable for damages?

People who say you don't "own" the property are using very narrow definitions of the word "own." It could be argued that you don't own anything, since there are no guarantees that someone else won't take it away, and you forfeit all of it when you die. Such definitions are both impractical and misleading.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[Coryoth]

You have the ability to choose precisely to whom you pay rent. You can avoid really bad landlords, as well as landlords who would use, or you find out are using, your rent moneys in ways abhorrent to you. You have no such choice with the government. Come now, if you find a landlord that you don't like, you can't go to another landlord and get him to rent you the first landlord's property at a deal more to your liking. If you don't like the landlord's terms then you need to rent property that isn't owned by that landlord. Similarly, if you don't like the government, feel free to get property in a location not controlled by that government (last time I checked there wasn't a single global government that controlled all property in the world). You have choice.

Additionally, when you pay rent, you receive in return a service you desire and are actively attempting to obtain (a place to stay.) When you pay property taxes, you receive what the government decides to give you; you have little (or no) control over your end. Right, because you have complete control over the contract the landlord offers you -- if you don't like what he offers you can just change it, and he'll have to accept your changes. No wait, the other way around: if you want to rent property that the landlord owns, you accept the terms he's offering, or look elsewhere. So when paying property tax you get just the same as you get when paying your landlord: a place to stay in a location you desire to stay. If you don't like the terms of the deal offered, you are free to try different property under a different government. Or are you paying property tax but are somehow barred from living and working in the country in which you pay that tax?

For instance, it is one thing for a taxpayer to receive the "service" of schooling if there are children in the house; it is entirely another when there aren't. It is one thing to pay a tax for television transponders if you watch broadcast television. It is entirely another if you don't. So you're looking at renting an apartment in a particular building; the building has a pool and is all set up for cable (it wasn't free to put all the cabling into the building and to maintain it); apparently you can just opt out of paying the cost of those things and still live in that building regardless of whether the landlord is willing to offer you such a contract or not? Somehow I don't think so. The contract for the building includes paying for the amenities. If you don't like the amenities, find a different building. Likewise, property tax includes the amenities the government is offering. If you don't like the amenities, find a different country.

Stop pretending that you are forced into the deal, when in reality you are simply unwilling to exercise your choice.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[Duhavid]

What does it mean to "own land"?

Re:Let's hope they win!

[stephanruby]

For a car alarm, you can get the car towed (at least, you can do that in the State/City I live in). If a car alarm goes off more than 15 minutes (it doesn't have to be contiguous), they'll cite the car and get it towed away (the interval used to be 30 minutes, but a couple of years ago they changed it to be 15 minutes). Nowadays, I can't even remember the last time I heard a car alarm, it just doesn't happen anymore -- I would know too -- because when it did happen -- I'd call the cops right away. Now the alarms are silent, they're wired to a pager that alerts the owner, and they're a great deterrent for car thiefs, since silent alarms only increase their chances of getting caught, and getting pounded on.

As to the sound from a dog, I believe there are local ordinances that dictate that sort of thing too. If a sound goes above some predetermined number of decibels during some predetermined period of time, the local authorities would take punitive action against such a dog owner, and if the problem was bad enough -- the victim could probably sue for damages. In most other cases however, the dog is probably not that loud, the local authorities may not be that eager to intervene, and a set of double-pane windows may just be enough to drown out such noises entirely.

In any case, we're not talking about private owners here, we're talking about Native American reservations -- we're talking about sovereign States. And I believe that since the United States and/or some of its citizens such as Rupert Murdoch have no problem drowning out Foreign countries in radio waves and television waves against the express wishes of those countries (e.g. Cuba, Iran, and many countries in South America), then I just don't see them respecting the wishes of the Native American nations either.

One interesting thing however is that those Native American Nations could try to interfere with those waves, since they can't really be stopped from interfering, and they could also forbid anyone on their soil from carrying a cell phone from a particular carrier. You combine this with the fact that they can still try to sue cell phone networks in American court, and possibly launch a Public Relations campaign against those cell phone networks -- then it may just be better for the cell phone networks to give in a little and negotiate some kind of deal with them.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[tftp]

feel free to get property in a location not controlled by that government

This may work in an abstract, theoretical discussion - but in practical terms it is not even nearly as feasible as walking into a next house for rent, probably just next door.

No wait, the other way around: if you want to rent property that the landlord owns, you accept the terms he's offering, or look elsewhere.

That is simply incorrect. You and the landlord are equals, and you have as much right to change the contract as he has. You may not know it, but that's how it is. If the landlord wants your money he will accept your changes; you may for example opt out of some services, like clubhouse access or gym or parking or TV. Similarly, if you don't like his contract you will walk away. Deals between private parties can be anything they like, as long as it is not illegal. None of that is true when you deal with the government - you aren't signing any contracts with the government, and you have no practical offer (unless you emigrate.)

Re:Let's hope they win!

[Kadin2048]

And it's a rather lucrative business to get into if you want to screw people out of their homes, too.

Yeah, but the government really hates competition in that area...

Not that it's stopped a few people from trying over the years. It's a good way to end up at the end of a rope.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[billDCat]

In any case, we're not talking about private owners here, we're talking about Native American reservations -- we're talking about sovereign States.
Nope, we're talking about Native Canadian reservations. Not that it changes the argument much, but it's good to get the country right :-)

I'm actually originally from Manitoba, currently living in British Columbia. I'm not sure how it is down south, but here Native issues are a very complex and politically charged area in both provinces. I personally have trouble trying to separate reason from emotion, and my first instinct is often to think that it's a money grab. On one hand, many reservations are in dire financial need and the money could help them. On the other hand, I'm not sure such funds always go to where they are supposed to or are used in a manner that is really helpful.

There often still seems to be the feeling within Native communities that the Natives are owed for losses of the past. While there is no arguing that those losses were major, I'm not sure that maintaining that pattern of thinking is a strategy that will win out in the long term (or even in the short term). That feeling of being owed leads to the expectation that other people will take those troubled communities and fix them, but the fixing needs to come from within for it to work. Unfortunately, I fear that this airwaves thing is another knee-jerk "you owe us" reaction rather than one aimed at helping those communities from within. Hopefully I am wrong.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[tftp]

(because a rental company has bought up all the property in a particular area)

What weird area would that be, I wonder?

but in practical terms a landlord will be in a relative position of power in any such negotiation.

I don't know why you think so. If I talk to a salesman I don't consider him above me. I have a business offer, that's all. I'm not afraid of him. If he says no, it's his right, just as it is my right to say no. If we don't agree I will walk away, big deal.

It is often much easier for him go without a tenant than it is for you to go without somewhere to live.

Do not betray the fact that you never worked as a landlord. The ones that I know would laugh at this statement of yours. They spend 30% of their time sending reports to their bosses on how many units are rented and what are the prospects. If the number drops below a certain number they get kicked out - not that it's hard to find a replacement landlord these days... it's a largely unskilled job. Besides, you are free to return to him later and accept his offer, but he is not able to find you a week later and accept your offer. The renter has a tactical advantage.

You are just as free to try and renegotiate terms with the government.

I understand that you only restate your previous position, but your phrase is worth quoting :-)

Of course you do have another form of recourse with regard to government -- you do have a say in who makes up the government and what policies it pursues.

Huh? What country are you talking about here? Not the USA - the country of Compassionate Conservatives and Democrats Determined To Stop The War, I suppose? (I don't know what happens in .nz where you appear to be from; it could be a True Democracy for all I know.)

a government [...] still provides you with some means to renegotiate.

I would like to know some of them that still work. Soap, ballot and jury boxes have been tried to no effect. The last box is scary, and is not likely to help either. Got other ideas?

A government isn't inherently evil anymore than a landlord is.

A government has more control over you, including control that you personally haven't permitted the government to have - since you haven't signed any papers to that effect after you were born. Contracts with landlords are signed by you, and should be to mutual benefit of both parties, and they can be dissolved when they are no longer interesting. You can't dissolve a "contract" with your government, and this gives the government more chances to affect your life against your wishes.

Re:Let's hope they win!

[MonkeyCMonkeyDo]

Well, you are mistaken by saying they won't create urban reserves. When I worked for a Tribal Council, their offices were in the city, and that said land was designated a "First Nations Reserve." City taxes, henceforth, were not paid for the office building or the grounds it was on.

What resource is being consumed?

[Russ Nelson]

So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through? I will take one silver coin, and drop it on the ground, and you may comfort yourself with the sound of the money.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Sigma 7]

So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, Not "consumed" per se, but cell phones generate electro-magnetic radiation - which kill off bees that are necessary for their survival. There's some pseudo-scientific reports that simply state the opposite and should be avoided as much as possible.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Guysmiley777]

The truth is often more complicated than the little news blurbs lead you to believe.

The Straight Dope - Disappearing Bees

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Sunburnt]

Not "consumed" per se, but cell phones generate electro-magnetic radiation - which kill off bees that are necessary for their survival.

(From the FTA to which you linked:) One team of reseachers at Landau University in Germany discovered that if you put cell phones right next to beehives, some of the bees appear to become confused and have difficulty communicating. They don't die, and people who believe that this happens are apparently too lazy to even read the original research that started people discussing cell phones as a possible cause of CCD. Especially, it seems, when this sort of thing confirms pre-existing prejudices.

Standard boilerplate: In the event that the Parent is determined to be satirical in nature, congratulations! You got me.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[statusbar]

That's easy to answer! Of course they would like to set up their own cell phone repeaters and collect the roaming fees for anyone using a cell phone near them!

--jeffk++

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Goldberg's Pants]

I live in Canada. I have nothing but sympathy for the first nations folk. They've been screwed over so many times.

However, this is just taking the piss.

I like the Faraday Cage idea. I'd gladly chip in for that, just to fuck these idiots and their claims over.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Do they have some demonstrable manner in which cell phone traffic through their airspace is harming them financially?

They are First Nations peoples, and are therefore not required to show any demonstrable harm from any thing any where at any time. They are born harmed, they live harmed, and they will die harmed, and as an evil white slave-driving colonizer you will pay them the required tribute no matter when your ancestors got here and you *damned* sure will keep your mouth shut when you get the invoice. Now get out your wallet, bend over, and shut your goddamned oppressor pie-hole.

By the way, the Right Reverend Sharpton gets here in an hour. Do you have your checkbook on you?

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

NPR's Science Friday had an interview with a more plausible cause of colony collapses, it basically involves an intruder insect that is known to be only a small nuisance against African bees but with European bees, it causes a highly stressfull hormone feedback loop such that all the bees basically abandon the hive.

Re:What resource is being consumed?

[Your Pal Dave]

NPR's Science Friday had an interview with a more plausible cause of colony collapses, it basically involves an intruder insect that is known to be only a small nuisance against African bees but with European bees, it causes a highly stressfull hormone feedback loop such that all the bees basically abandon the hive. You can listen to this show here.

Desperation

[mulhollandj]

Honestly, it is stupid moves like this that has kept natives mostly poor and depressed. What are they going to do about it? Build a wall to block it?

Re:Desperation

[TheSHAD0W]

They could put up jammers; that'd work nicely.

Hey, if I can be prosecuted for decoding satellite TV photons I'm not considered entitled to, why can't I object to photons being sent across my property?

Re:Desperation

[Anonymous Coward]

More likely a very large tinfoil hat.

A tinfoil teepee?

Re:Desperation

[Lehk228]

a soverign nation is just that, they have every right they are capable of asserting. so i suppose they could start jamming so long as they produce their own electricity to keep the jammers running and consider that the best use of electricity.

Fine.

[Bluesman]

Then they should pay for any cell phone signal originating from their territory, too.

And they should be charged for any rain water that evaporated from somewhere else.

Let's total up these charges...wow, looks like they come out even!

Re:Fine.

[OS24Ever]

This reminds me of a situation I experienced when I lived in Wichita KS in the 90s.

On the east side of town, surrounded by Wichita, is a little city. Little, literally, like maybe four blocks long. If you find it and zoom in on google maps it's completely taken up by the third zoom level from the top.

They sat on what is really the main east/west road through the entire city. Of course they halved the speed limit, had their own police force, and Eastboro was known as the biggest speed trap in the area. Their cops were an urban legend of ass hattery.

This fine little city of elitist was pretty tired of cars driving through their city, so at the west end of town they barricaded the road, put in giant speed humps that basically did nothing but damage a car trying to go over it at any speed greater than 0.5 MPH.

The next morning (slight exaggeration), the Wichita City council submitted a law that said that any city completely surrounded by wichita would be annexed withing 15 days or something like that. The barricades were down by the end of the day, speed limit was still 20 MPH though.

Personally I'd be more entertained by the idea of a giant ass Faraday cage dropped over the region, that'd stop all radio signals and solve their resource use problem.

Stop the insanity.

[glrotate]

Indian nations are a farcical anachronism who have greatly outlived their usefulness. The US and CA govs should just stop recognizing them. It's time to move out of the stone age people.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[casings]

I believe that is the same line of reasoning that caused their genocide...

Re:Stop the insanity.

[Kohath]

There's another name for your plan: equality. The tribes (or first nations or whatever) should be equal. The US should amend the Constitution to get rid of the special status for tribal lands and simply make them property of the folks who live there. No special rules, no special treaty rights, nothing. Equality.

States could start on this. For example, if someone has the right to open a casino on tribal lands, give that same right to the folks with property off of tribal lands. If a tribe member gets an exemption on fishing limits, repeal the limit for everyone. If a tribe can sell without charging a tax, repeal the tax for everyone.

Equality under the law should be the goal. It is long overdue.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[iminplaya]

ALL nations are a farcical anachronism who have greatly outlived their usefulness. We should stop recognizing the US and Canada, and all the others. You're right. It's time to move out of the stone age, and quit marking our territory like dogs. On the other hand, to consider Indian nations any less worthy of the status than a "regular" nation is extremely bigoted. Just sayin'...

Re:Stop the insanity.

[Citizen of Earth]

Spike: I just can't take all this mamby pamby boo-hooing about the bloody Indians.

Willow: The preferred term is...

Spike: You won. All right? You came in and you killed them and you took their land. That's what conquering nations do. It's what Caesar did, and he's not going around saying, "I came, I conquered, I felt really bad about it." The history of the world isn't people making friends. You had better weapons, and you massacred them. End of story.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[MagikSlinger]

Indian nations are a farcical anachronism who have greatly outlived their usefulness. The US and CA govs should just stop recognizing them. It's time to move out of the stone age people.

We (or our parents) had a choice of coming to North America. The Indian nations were here, recognized by the crown (Queen Vicky, lor bless her!) as sovereign nations within the British Empire and their land claims recognized. Then some trumped up judge in London decided to write law from the bench (a.k.a. "activist judge") that said that aboriginals had no claim to their land. In direct violation of treaties and the ruling of the privy council. The government of the day said "What harm could come?" Well, as New Zealand and Canada learned, acting on an invalid judgement is a legal time bomb and as a result, modern Supreme Courts in NZ and Canada have said "That ruling should have never happened -- the land claims and treaties are in tact".

This case isn't about what you think it. A bunch of commissions over the years pointed out the bloody obvious: life on the reserves suck because they were systematically neglected and restricted by the Indian Act on how they could earn a living and still be allowed to live on their land (Part of the goal was to erase the identities and land claims of the original Indian nations and "Westernize" them). So a couple years ago, the Feds and provincial ministers got together with the native bands to figure out how to change things so the native Indians can become self-sufficient and agreed to the Kelowna agreement.

An agreement the current Conservative government unilaterally decided to break. This little stunt is probably going to be the first of many public actions. As some have said, it's going to be a long, hot summer in Canada this year...

(Note, I am not a Native Indian, but a real honest-to-goodness Indian (half actually), but I grew up with native Indians and have great sympathy for them. I also live in Canada and pay taxes so I'm not some unemployed, liberal hippie who won't have to pay for the settlements.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[Charcharodon]

At least one person has a strong grasp on history and reality here.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[Anonymous Coward]

>life on the reserves suck because they were systematically neglected and restricted by the Indian Act

The indian act was supported by chiefs to keep women off their feet and in beds making babies so they could be beaten by their husbands. Look it up, it's true. Women in first nations are fighting for equality (still) but rarely get anywhere because they are (often quite literally) beaten back down.

You want indians to have a better life here? Make all indians citizens and remove the indian reserves. Then we can put all the wife beaters in jail. One exception: Indians that murdered their wives just because it was legal get sent off in boats, don't get citizenship, and get their first nations rights removed.

I see indian women all the day. The abuse they undergo in the backwards tribes that permit violence against them is horrific.

It's about time Canada stopped letting third world practices happen on her soil, whether it be indian or conquered.

You know it's that bad when amensty international has a special section regarding violence against indian women on their website.

But that's ok, you can keep living in your fantasy world that indians in Canada have the same values as non-indians. Because it is a fantasy. Because indians keep electing chiefs that support violence against women.

But statistics like this tell it all, really:

According to a Canadian government statistic, young Indigenous women are five times more likely than other women of the same age to die as the result of violence.

For five times less violence, I know a lot of indian women that would trade their first nations status in in a heartbeat.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[schon]

My stepfather is Cree, and I spend much of my childhood on reserves.

The indian act was supported by chiefs to keep women off their feet and in beds making babies so they could be beaten by their husbands. Look it up, it's true. Women in first nations are fighting for equality (still) but rarely get anywhere because they are (often quite literally) beaten back down. I have to say that I have seen *NO* evidence of this, ever. Not once.

Life on reserves is difficult, and I would say that native people are the most disenfranchised in Canada (to Americans reading this: they get treated with the same respect that black people get treated in the southern states.) However, I have seen no evidence that spousal abuse happens on the scale you claim.

Re:Stop the insanity.

[quantaman]

My stepfather is Cree, and I spend much of my childhood on reserves.

The indian act was supported by chiefs to keep women off their feet and in beds making babies so they could be beaten by their husbands. Look it up, it's true. Women in first nations are fighting for equality (still) but rarely get anywhere because they are (often quite literally) beaten back down. I have to say that I have seen *NO* evidence of this, ever. Not once.

Life on reserves is difficult, and I would say that native people are the most disenfranchised in Canada (to Americans reading this: they get treated with the same respect that black people get treated in the southern states.) However, I have seen no evidence that spousal abuse happens on the scale you claim. I'd go further. I believe that Native Americans are easily the most discriminated against racial group in North America, for evidence simply look at the media. Shows, movies, they always have their representative minority characters, black, indian, arabic, asian, it's not uncommon to see a very positive portrayal of a person from one of these groups in the media. Now think about portrayals of Natives, when is the last time you've seen a native actor in a movie or television show who isn't either some kind of medicine man, unsavory charcter from a reserve, or some other caricature?

There are ONLY TWO examples I can think of in all the media I've seen.

The most familiar to ./ers is probably Chakotay, unfortunately the character appeared to related more to South American indian tribes (the actor himself was American-Mexican, not an aboriginal), became a medicine man whenever his Native Americanness was brought up, and of course was on a space ship which kinda blows the rest of the relatability for native audiences (what, native kids are going to now pursue their dream of being a star ship captain?). The only other example I can think of is the police officer (Lorne Cardinal) off Corner Gas, sure he's not a complicated character by any means, it's a sitcom after all, but he's portrayed as a valuable member of the community who has a function other than jumping up to the audience and saying "Look at me! I'm native!".

My home town was next to a large reservation and as a result my high school had a lot of native students. There were some real nice smart kids among them, and I can just about guarantee that none of them went to university. Can't blame them of course, if you had never seen a single example of someone like you actually succeeding in an educated profession how hard would you pursue an education?

If people are really interested in native americans succeeding give them some damn role models! Have a doctor or lawyer show where a primary character is native, smart, and doesn't start talking about native rituals or ancient wisdom every chance they get. Heck even a native Brittney Spears or Brad Pitt to show them they can have sex appeal as natives (there's a reason that many native kids in my school started emulating black hip-hop culture).

Re:Stop the insanity.

[Have Brain Will Rent]

In Canada the worst enemy of natives is frequently natives. The federal government spends something like $20,000 per native per year on reserves yet many natives on reserves live in squalor. The money is allocated to the band and from there it's anybody's guess as to what happens to it because there is no accounting of any kind. When the government tried to amend the law so that there would have to be an open and transparent accounting made, to the natives the money was supposed to help , there were huge protests by native groups about government being paternalistic.

I almost hope they win...

[Dr.Dubious DDQ]

Seems like a very similar argument could be made against laws that prohibit decrypting signals that pass through one's property

Fair is fair, but...

[davmoo]

The cellphone companies should respond by treating any call that originates in a First Nations area as a "foreign" call wishing to access their network, and charge the appropriate fees and roaming charges.

Little known fact

[Viceroy Potatohead]

Before Europeans came to North America, the native people would use every part of a broadcast signal, instead of wasting it like we do nowadays. Apparently they did the same thing with bison.

Now you know!

And next?

[FrankSchwab]

So, how about a seat tax on every airliner that passes over? A transit tax for every satellite that crosses their land? Hell, how about an "image" tax for every person who catches a glimpse of their land?

Re:And next?

[maxwell demon]

You know, all the time some of your gravity bends the space in their land. Ok, it's only very slightly, but the effect exists. Thus they could tax you for that. Since the effect is so small, I think one cent per human per month should be enough. With about 6 billion people in the world, that would be 60 million dollars per month.

Not a problem...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, not a problem...

Oh, did we mention that costs for OUR electricity, gasoline, wood, metal, use of our roads, telephone lines, groceries, banking services, medical services, fire services, and police services for natives on band land have doubled in price?

You give an inch and they try to take a foot, this will never stop until we put a stop to it. They get all the benefits of regular tax payers, without paying the taxes, PLUS they want additional perks.

Even the majority of the my native friends think it is getting ridiculous, they live on some of the richest band land in the country and of course they don't see a dime from all that income, only the crazy rich band leader in the massive mansion(s) on the top of the hill see that.

Give me a break!

Re:Not a problem...

[aevan]

No, your idea of ownership is preposterous. All of those resources, products, and services do not belong to you. You are living on land that is stolen and consuming products that are the end result of theft, slavery, and murder. Wildlife would do well if the First Nations got up and left to go back home where it came from.

They immigrated too ya know :P

Will this ever end?

[nigmafyre]

To quote the above, the "do nothing and get everything" attitude that afflicts the Natives is born and bred on the reserves and brought about through a lifetime of having a silver spoon in their mouth. I am not racist. I am not against Natives. I do however have a problem with the current land claims they are proposing, as well as the terrorist antics that their Grand Chief has been condoning of late. At what point do we cut them off and say "Sorry, you've been paid back, thats enough, now get a real job and maintain your culture like everyone else, without the support of the government".

It really burns my ass to know that the 45% or so tax that comes off my cheque every week goes in a large majority directly to them, which they then turn around and use in a facetious manner like this lawsuit, or other such things. For a culture that has every advantage and is still in the "shitter" so to speak, maybe the problem is not a lack of money or resources or support, but rather too much.

being single, white, male and in my mid twenties, I can't even speak out, I have no recourse, and then hearing this, its absolutely NUTS.

Re:Will this ever end?

[Billy the Impaler]

People continue to give in to these sort of ridiculous claims due to only one thing: white guilt. People were very mean to them a long time ago and as such many whites feel bad about their hateful and genocidal Caucasian forebearers. The populations that might benefit from this see an opportunity and exploit it just as anybody would. If you told me I could get special benefits just because I was a read-headed guy with Irish parents I'd be all over that. I can't get benefits for this but other people can get benefits for similarly innate characteristics.

Reverse racism is racism too.

Re:Will this ever end?

[Shaman]

Fuck white guilt. I don't feel guilty. I feel used.

Re:Will this ever end?

[__aaaehb3101]

Consider that in Manitoba(like most provinces) native land claims have been filed for over 100% actual land mass of the province, and that in some areas 10-15 bands are claiming the same stretches of land. It's no wonder that bands are making more and more outrageous claims to try and wring more and more money out of "the government". Even if we ignore the fact the all airspace is controlled and "owned" by the government of Canada(not the native bands), how are native bands going to measure the number of cell phone signals that cross "their land"? And even more likely the cell phone companies will just blackout reserve land. It's too bad that less than 2% of Canada's population is allowed to engage in various levels of terrorism at their whim, and it's even sadder that they continue to get away with it. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before someone starts vandalizing cell towers in the name "native justice".

Re:Will this ever end?

[Viceroy Potatohead]

What a bunch of horsesh*t.

While I agree the current system doesn't work (in fact, it's absolute garbage which likely exacerbates the problem), pretty much everything else you've said is crap, IMO. I've been to quite a few reserves in Manitoba, and I don't see very many silver spoons in people's mouths. There are plenty of reserves that are absolute holes, where residents don't even own the crappy thirty year old run-down trailers they live in (not allowed to own them on some reserves, from my understanding). No sewage, no garbage pick up, no pavement, mud, no jobs, a laissez faire attitude by the RCMP toward crime (hence lots of juvenile vandalism, arson etc.). What's the option? Move to the city and get a job? Kind of tough when the immediate assumption by too many people, yourself included (I'd guess), is "lazy Indian expecting free hand outs.".

AFAICT, it isn't "current land claims they are proposing", but existing agreements they want honoured. Personally, I want my government to keep its word, even if it costs me. Some of these treaties are fairly recent (government agreements with natives during the world wars to get them to fight etc).

And since when did non-violent civil disobedience become "terrorist antics". You might as well paint Rosa Parks with the same brush.

If 45% of your taxes are largely going to the Indians, you need a new accountant (either that, or I need yours).

being single, white, male and in my thirties, I can speak out, but I have no recourse, I want my government to honour its agreements. Who knows, it might help.

Re:Will this ever end?

[dasunt]

People continue to give in to these sort of ridiculous claims due to only one thing: white guilt. People were very mean to them a long time ago and as such many whites feel bad about their hateful and genocidal Caucasian forebearers. The populations that might benefit from this see an opportunity and exploit it just as anybody would. If you told me I could get special benefits just because I was a read-headed guy with Irish parents I'd be all over that. I can't get benefits for this but other people can get benefits for similarly innate characteristics.

Well, looking at my family history as far back as I can trace, I think it is safe to assume that out of the white ancestors I have (the majority), almost all of the hating and killing were against other whites, specifically white Europeans.

In fact, from what I can tell, the side of my family that did most of the killing of non-whites was the small percentage of my ancestors who were non-white. That side was also the side that ended up stealing the land of other non-whites.

What the above means, I don't know.

Indeed.

[igotmybfg]

I want revenue sharing for all cell-phone signals that go through my body. WiFi too. Oh, and walktie talkies. And ham radios, AM, FM, and XM. You know what, since it's all just EM waves anyway, I also want revenue for each ray of light that bounces off me and onto anything else. Got a microwave oven? Pay up.

what happens now

[weighn]

1. no compensation ensues;
2. First Nations installs signal blockers;
3. the signals (using a feature that is inherent in this mode of communication) use neighbouring air to route around First Nations' air;
4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is

Reality check.

[R2.0]

Allow me to state that I am fully in favor of the Native American Nations taking advantage of their status and sucking money away from the surrounding governments. They've had a pretty shitty 500 years, and if they want to take money from dumb white folk at casinos, and let those same folk dodge cigarette taxes, more power to them.

That being said, WTF? They are asserting a "property right" that has been rejected via common, statutory, and international law time and time again. A nation can control physical objects that enter their airspace, but not energy. It's like RFA/Radio Marti - nations may not like broadcasting radio waves into their territory, but there isn't dick-all they can do about it except bitch and moan and try to jam it. But in this case, jamming would be a cure worse than the cause - their own members would lose the same access.

I mean, are they serious?

how did I forget...

[weighn]

4. First Nations realise how stupid the whole exercise is 5. ???;
6. NO profit.

Moderating

[pcameron41]

Can I mod this entire story down as racist flame bait?

Re:Moderating

[Shaman]

Denial is rarely a good solution.

Re:Moderating

[karmaflux]

...yes it is.

They have the right to do this

[yt.rabb at gmail]

I don't know what it is like in Canada, but in the United States we regularly sell off parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. It is considered to be held in common by the people of the United States, so we charge companies to use it. I'm no expert on the subject, but they appear to be well within their rights. Why all the anger?

Re:They have the right to do this

[Charcharodon]

They already get their check every month, now they are trying to milk out more. I have plenty of sympathy and outrage over the past of the way they were treated, but after living near a reservation for three years in the here and now I've let alot of that slide. A large chunk of these people are stuck in the welfare cycle and are just looking for handouts. This is just the latest in a long line of schemes they've been trying on the government to get back what was never taken from the living in the first place. Also it really depends on what ever agreement the particular reservation has with the federal government. They are not sovereign nations, nor are they exempt from federal law.

why stop there?

[mr_exit]

The Maori in New Zealand tried to claim airspace and even up where the satelites fly!

http://twm.co.nz/maorispace.htm

"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe."

If you're going to be mad you might as well go the whole hog.

Re:No genocide

[Tatisimo]

Reminded me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

I wonder how long it'll be until we start accepting the truth and quit our denial of scientific, historical, and other important facts for political reasons.

Commoditizing Air

[unlametheweak]

On first glance it sounds ridiculous; however there is some precedence in the monetization of air:

-The state of New York has filed suit against Ohio for dumping pollution on them through the airwaves http://www.oag.state.ny.us/press/2005/mar/mar18a_0 5.html.

-A portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum is going to be auctioned off in the U.S.
"the spectrum is a national resource that should be managed".
PDF: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1. 0.pdf
google cache: http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:fH_s8JehCyEJ: www.pff.org/issues-pubs/books/060309dacaspectrum1. 0.pdf+lectro-magnetic+spectrum+auctioned&hl=en&ct= clnk&cd=1

If governments can make money off the spectrum then why not so-called "First Nation" governments? It really boils down to how much legal and economic authority Indians should have. And it deals with the ambiguity of a people who both want to claim their individuality and distinction from the rest of society, and still be apart of that society, especially when it comes to exploiting natural resources. It's pretty much politics as usual. Seems like the typical having-your-cake-and-eating-it-to mentality.

I have a better idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I have this really big Faraday cage...

Re:No genocide

[Shaman]

It doesn't matter. It wasn't our generation, or our great great great great great grandparent's generation. But we're now paying for it like it was. And it's about time it stopped, because it is doing nobody any favours, least of all the native americans.

devil's advocate says: spectrum

[SuperBanana]

So, pray, tell us, what resource belonging to First Nations is being consumed, so that you have less of it the signal has passed through?

To play devil's advocate since half of the posters are bashing Indian people and the other half are foaming at the mouth about how stupid a concept this is...

...spectrum. When one person is using a certain chunk, another can't until their systems are sufficiently isolated enough. Given that the Canadian and US government sold (and continue to sell) this spectrum off for huge, huge chunks of money AND as a result regulate who can use what parts...why shouldn't they be allowed to do the same, if they are a sovereign nation? (if they're not, then that's a different matter.)

There are libertarian-esque viewpoints along the lines of, "oh, we shouldn't control the radio spectrum!" Well, then you end up with your neighbor's radio tower cutting off your portable phone or making your garage door open randomly, and your wireless network causes his car's remote lock fob to not work, and the local fire department's radios are suddenly useless because Bob's Plumbing Supply implemented a digital paging system for their truck fleet.

The world has already settled on cell phone frequencies, but the moral high ground goes to the tribes if Canada didn't consult with them when it signed on to the whole "sure, we'll make cell frequencies in Canada X, Y, and Z", if geography is such that signals from towers in Canada would penetrate to any degree into these territories.

Note, I said the moral high ground- not the practical high ground. The practical high ground goes of course to the cell phone industry and Canada...

Re:devil's advocate says: spectrum

[TapeCutter]

"...if they are a sovereign nation?"

Let's see if the current POTUS can shed any light on that question...

"Tribal sovereignty means that; it's sovereign. I mean, you're a -- you've been given sovereignty, and you're viewed as a sovereign entity. And therefore the relationship between the federal government and tribes is one between sovereign entities." -- GWB

Re:devil's advocate says: spectrum

[Runefox]

Not a direct reply to the AC, but rather to anyone who thinks like him:

I am a member of a First Nations group, and I have many clues about how this stuff works. I am not an idiot, nor are the rest of the First Nations of North America. I know a good bit about wireless networks and information technology as a whole, and I feel that this sort of thinking is one of the major stumbling blocks facing both the United States and Canada, not only in regard to the First Nations, but also to people of Middle Eastern descent, people of Mediterranean descent, European, Asian, African, or any other heraldry. There exists the same potential in all humankind to grow and expand, and the best example of that is that we come from different parts of the world. The cultural differences between Russia and Japan, India and Canada, England and the United States, Australia and China, are vast and for many, innumerable, but the fact that society has advanced on to this point, has branched out and fluorished in such a way, that's how we know, truly, that we all have the same potential. Just because one country is wealthier than another due to natural resources or any other reason, doesn't mean that the people of another are any less intelligent, or any less capable.

We should be celebrating our differences, celebrating humanity as a whole, rather than waging personal racial wars against each other, simply because one was fortunate enough to be born in an affluent part of the world, and another was not. In the example of America, there is nothing more in tune with the American ideal than a person landing on the shore from another country, penniless and seasick, looking to make a living.

Re:devil's advocate says: spectrum

[king-manic]

The cultural differences between Russia and Japan, India and Canada, England and the United States, Australia and China, are vast and for many, innumerable, but the fact that society has advanced on to this point, has branched out and fluorished in such a way, that's how we know, truly, that we all have the same potential. Just because one country is wealthier than another due to natural resources or any other reason, doesn't mean that the people of another are any less intelligent, or any less capable.

We should be celebrating our differences, celebrating humanity as a whole, rather than waging personal racial wars against each other, simply because one was fortunate enough to be born in an affluent part of the world, and another was not. In the example of America, there is nothing more in tune with the American ideal than a person landing on the shore from another country, penniless and seasick, looking to make a living

I cannot tolerate racism. However Cultures are different. Some cultures are better able to deal with certain situations. What happened to most native cultures is it met a culture that out produced, out murdered, and was better deriving nutrients out of any given piece of land. A person born into a culture such as the deep forest cultures in the amazon is going to grow up less able and less intelligent. It's not his genetic potential that causes this but a consequence of his less competitive culture (developmental environment). Culture is not a static thing and it can be changed. The native communities in Canada are not homogeneous and some do very well but many don't. Partly because the current culture of many of them are defeatist. They wish to deny the system, as it isn't their system. They feel the system owes them. They feel the system is against them. Which become self fulfilling prophecies. Unfortunately the system is not going away and if you push too hard the system will shift much harder against those communities.

The last three decades have seem administrations sympathetic to the native communities and Canada as a whole attempting to help. Don't fool yourself, it's not out of human decency but instead out of political fashion and a bit of guilt that they have done as much as they have in the last 30 years. If you inconvenience enough people via Air Tax and high way protests and the belligerence I see from the native communities in my work this will quickly dropped out of fashion. I'm Chinese and we were discriminated against as well but We sucked it up and marched on with proving we can do just as well in the system. That is what the native communities have to do. Drop the belligerence, drop the angst, and prove they can compete just as well.

Time to end the Indian segregation

[Just Some Guy]

It's way past time to end this ludicrous segregation of Indians into subcitizens on reservations. I propose that we convert reservations into private property contained within the states or regions encapsulating them, with the tribal council or other group elected by the tribal members given the deed to the property. Furthermore, declare a 100-year statute of limitations on all property disputes nationally.

Seriously, let's repatriate our brothers and put this insanity to rest.

Ovide Mercredi

[debest]

Funny story about Ovide Mercredi. I had the opportunity to meet him in 1992 (I think) when the Assembly of First Nations had their annual conference on Manitoulin Island, in Northern Ontario. At this time, he was the Grand Chief of the Assembly, and recogizable across the country. I grew up on Manitoulin and was working as a waiter/bartender at the hotel/restaurant where he and his entourage were staying during the conference, in a little town called Gore Bay.

We open up the dining room for dinner early for him and his group (about 10 people), as they had to get to a meeting. I get chosen to serve their table. Hey, it's as close to "celebrity" as I've ever seen in this place, so I consider it somewhat of an honour.

So I introduce myself to the table and run through the spiel. I hand everyone the menus, and then explain the day's "special" (not on the menu). I then explain that all entres come with your choice of pototoes. Now, the kitchen prepared different styles of potatoes: sometimes they were scalloped, or oven roasted, but most often the choices were mashed pototoes or a baked potato. I've been working at this place for a couple of summers now, so the words just flow off my tongue automatically. Plus, I'm a bit nervous, so I'm talking a bit faster than normal. On this afternoon, I say the same thing I've said hundreds of times: "All dinners come with your choice of pototoes: mashed or baked."

Mercredi is in the middle of sipping a glass of water. As I say this, he nearly sprays the water across the table, looks up at me, and blurts out, "What kind of potatoes!?"

Instantly, I (and the rest of the table) realize how the phrase "mashed or baked" can sound if you are being a little rushed!

Naturally, the table explodes with laughter, and I just about kill myself laughing too. They enjoyed the meal, but of course had to make a comment on how "creamy" the mashed potatoes were, and wanted to make sure that they weren't the "mashedorbaked" style of potatoes. :-)

I wonder if he still remembers that afternoon?

Re:Their terminology intrigues me

[maxume]

Find someone who claims their god created the sun and sue sue sue!

Am I the only one here...

[gravis777]

who sees where they are coming from? Okay, so I just skimmed the article, but don't most native Americans thing that everything is sacred in some way, including the air? Okay, yes, most of us will sit here and laugh about this, but think about it. You are brought up in a culture where everything is sacred. The water, the earth, the soil, the trees, the air. Someone from another culture upstream decides to build a damn that alters the water and how it flows. Most of us would argue they have a reason for compensation. We come in and decide to cut down their trees, they would want compensation. These to us are physical things that we can put monatary value on. But the natives are seeing it not as just a physical thing, but as a spiritual thing. Extending this thinking to the air waves is not that far of a stretch. And the thought of radio waves are invading their aerospace is actually a really good argument. Most countries that I know of require any device that operates that puts out any type of radio waves or electromagnetic field to be licensed and regulated. Broadcasters and radio operators must pay for braodcast licenses. If there is an Indian nation where we are sending radio waves through their aerospace without paying them a licensing fee, the idea of paying for compensation suddenly does not become so outragious.

The ultimate time share

[Harmonious Botch]

"The group apparently told MPs that their air space extended even further - to the outer limits of the universe." So their property rights sweep across the universe as the earth rotates...which means for about 10 minutes a day each they own Antares and Rigel. Are they Sirius?

Re:Their terminology intrigues me

[rtb61]

The catch is that the EM bandwidth was actually auctioned off outside of their airspace, are they in turn not allowed to auction off that same bandwidth within their own airspace. When they are denied that opportunity, should they not receive compensation under the agreed treaty arrangements.

Contracts are contracts, some countries treat their indigenous populations even more unfairly but when you make treaties you are bound by them, so it seems likely they have a legally arguable point because in auctioning off that bandwidth with in their airspace and then legally denying access to that bandwidth via government legislation effectively means that the bandwidth was stolen from them within their airspace.

The devil has a point

[jd]

The US considers the airewaves to be a commodity, as do other nations. Ergo, it is taxable.

It is also true that when two signals occupy the same frequency (as far as can be distinguished, and allowing for the fact that bandwidth is very literally the width of the radio band used), those signals WILL interfere with each other. This is not just true of signals of comparable strength, although that's when you start to really notice it for analog signals. For digital signals, see most of signals theory.

Now, arguably ALL electromagnetic signals will (eventually) pass through every point in the observable Universe. This means the tax has to either discriminatory or extremely small.

Personally, I do believe absolutely in the regulation of the airwaves - more so than the FCC, apparently, as I believe the radio astronomers should get first pick on any frequency that is vital to their science and replaceable by broadcasters. I also believe that there should be zero overlap between uses of the spectrum, so if X is allocated to the military, it SHOULD NOT be used by civilian devices and vice versa. In other words, if people won't play nicely in the radio sandpit, I believe it to be the responsibility of the appropriate authority to smack the b**** over the head with a clue-stick until they do. There are plenty of frequencies to meet all reasonable needs.

However, that is the exact antithesis of free trade and commodities, in which commodities can be bought and sold with minimal intervention, never mind strict quotas and optimizing for maximum gain to all parties. (Not most, all. None of this greater good for the greater number stuff, if it's not optimal for all then it's not optimal.) You cannot have systems both statically optimized and left to drift in the free market. The latter is good for many things and ends up with dynamic optimization in appropriate cases. Here, the needs and interests are all pre-defined and well known. The constraints on what you need to transmit a given amount of information in a given length of time is well-known. The absorption and reflective characteristics are also well-known and well-understood. The only direction the free market can go is towards inefficiency and waste.

I accept that airspace is "used" all over the planet by all radio signals, but if radio signals were managed, not marketed, there would be no issue with this. Only the markets can make the First Nations' claim valid.

Re:nobody likes a freeloader

[ColaMan]

and now we keep them in a state of artificially constructed abject poverty.

Boo fucking hoo. Get a job like the rest of us had to. So your great-great-grandfather got a bum deal. You're still here, aren't you? Adapt! Make something of yourself. You're not *forced* to live in abject poverty. You want to talk about bum deals? Talk to the Aztecs. Oh wait, you can't - the Spanish erased them from history. A lot less complaints from Aztec descendants that way it seems.

If you want to go all Borg-like (and this *is* slashdot, so I guess it's obligatory) :

Join our culture or perish. Your distinctiveness will be added to our whole. Resistance is futile.

Maori Spectrum Charitable Trust

[Timbotronic]

Spot on. There's precedent in New Zealand for the sharing of spectrum sale revenue with the Maori population.

Ultimately, spectrum is a valuable shared resource like any other. If governments are making money from selling it and they have treaty obligations to indigenous populations they're probably going to have to share that revenue. Of course it all depends on how strong the original treaty is. In New Zealand, the Maori kicked some serious butt when the Poms arrived. They negotiated a fairly strong treaty and consequently they have significantly more legal rights than, for example, Australian Aborigines.

If natives really cared about 'their' land ...

[GISGEOLOGYGEEK]

If Natives really did care about 'their' land, air, water etc ... instead of suing for revenues from a harmless radio signal service that passes their way, and which they also use, they would be suing every company and government entity upwind from them that release any kind of pollution that drifts down to them.

This is just another native scam setup to suck money from the productive parts of society so they can stay on reserve.

The natives of canada pay no income tax, and are exempt from various sales taxes if the store is on a reserve. This alone should give them all the advantage they need to get ahead in life ... especially the thousands of them who use their status cards to buy high tax items like cigarettes tax free, just to sell them to anyone who asks at a great profit while still discounted from legal retail. Anyone remember the extreme example, where thousands of cases of cigarettes were smuggles between canada and the USA through native reserves to avoid taxes at great profit to native leaders?

In parts of canada, some native groups have legal rights that no one else in Canada has ... reverse apartheid. Here's a great right that some natives in Victoria BC have excersized for decades ... the right to theft and vandalism!

Members of the Songhees band have purchased boats and cars with no intention of paying for them. To avoid collection agencies and the police, the stolen items simply stay on the reserve. In the case of one stolen boat, i watched it sit overlooking Admirals Road rotting away unused for probably 20 years. The police won't go on the reserve ... so no collector is safe there either.

For all my life native children from the Songhees band have gotten their kicks by vandalising public and private property and then stepping back onto the reserve before the police can get them. 10's of thousands of dollars have been spent simply to repair a bus stop shelter on Craigflower road that got smashed week after week after week.

How about the Tsawwassen band, that 'sold' (land on reserver is never really sold) fully loaded condos on reserve land to anyone who'd pay, with a beautiful ocean view ... but oops, no water or sewer service because the band didnt get approval and permits for the hookups from the community supplying the services next door. Too bad for the buyers who put down deposits before construction. For a couple years they had to just hold it til they left the reserve. It was on reserve land, so no one went to jail for the scam.

All across canada native leaders have been caught in corruption scandals, where millions of dollars have been embezelled while the communities they lead and were supposed to administer with the money are forced to suffer ... but no, the native people don't go after their corrupt leaders, heck they aren't criminals, they're idols! so they go after the government and people of canada.

They have had plenty of time to adapt to the modern world, they sure don't hesitate to use any modern tool like the rest of us including the very cell phones they want to steal money from.

Maybe it's time for native bands in canada to pay back other native bands for stolen land. They'd have you believe they were entirely peaceful until Europeans came along ... But bands like the Haida on BC's coast had a long history of invading and pillaging neighbouring tribes. The Kwakuitl band suffered greatly from the Warrior lifestyle of the Haida. But I guess the Haida couldn't take their own medicine when they finally lost their land to the europeans. Maybe this is why the native groups of BC have literally claimed 125% of British Columbia in land claim disputes with the provincial and federal governments. They still can't agree amongst themselves who had taken over what land from what band before the europeans took it all.

Re:Why limit yourself?

[VincenzoRomano]

I come from Gallifrey. Have I to pay twice?