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Second Life Arbitration Clause Unenforceable

NewYorkCountryLawyer writes "In a decision that could have far-reaching implications, a federal court in Pennsylvania has held that the California arbitration clause in the 'take it or leave it' clickwrap agreement on the Second Life website is unconscionable, and therefore unenforceable. In its decision (pdf) in Bragg v. Linden Research, Inc., No. 06-4925 (E.D. Pa. May 30, 2007), the Court concluded that the Second Life 'terms of service' seek to impose a one-sided dispute resolution scheme that tilts unfairly, 'in almost all situations,' in Second Life's favor. As a result, the case will stay in Pennsylvania federal court, instead of being transferred to an arbitration forum in California."

161 comments

  1. this seemed to be the important one for most games by jt418-93 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    lack of mutuality. The TOS gave Linden Research the right to terminate users "for any reason or no reason," the right to invoke several one-sided remedies to protect its own rights, and the right to modify the TOS at any time, including the arbitration provision.

    no more 'we can kill your account any time and you suck it' from online game companies. a lot of tos's just went invalid today. the shakeout from this will be huge in the pay for online gaming sector.

    --
    -.no
  2. Finally by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

    IMO it was only a matter of time until a judge ruled that he had jurisdiction, EULAs be damned.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

    1. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no judge has ever ruled that they don't have juristiction. Deep down they're power-huungry meglomaniacs, just like the rest of us, and aren't about to pass up the chance to have a say in something else.

    2. Re:Finally by KiahZero · · Score: 2, Informative

      no judge has ever ruled that they don't have juristiction. Not even close to true.
      --
      I'm a lawyer, but not yours. I wouldn't represent someone who thinks taking legal advice from Slashdot is a good idea.
    3. Re:Finally by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting
      exaggerated sweeping statement designed to show the general trend in decisions.

      Refs:
      • Spamhause (clearly no juristiction)
      • BetonSports (arrest for breaching an East Missouri law which tries to regulate activity in other countries)
      • NatWest3 (extradition for US crimes committed by British citizens, in Britain, against a British company, which the British legal system had declined to prosecute)
      • Jay Cohen (conviction for breaking US law by activities in Costa Rico)
      • Dmitry Sklyarov (Arrested and held for a month for violationg the DMCA whilst in Russia)
      • Hilton hotels subsiduary in Norway (Refused to do business with a Cuban delagation because, as a subsidiary of a US company it's illegal for them to do so, but in Norway it's illegal for them to refuse to do business for no reason other than nationality. The problem being that neither country would give up its juristiction to allow the hotel to comply with the other's laws.)
    4. Re:Finally by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Hilton hotels subsiduary in Norway (Refused to do business with a Cuban delagation because, as a subsidiary of a US company it's illegal for them to do so, but in Norway it's illegal for them to refuse to do business for no reason other than nationality. The problem being that neither country would give up its juristiction to allow the hotel to comply with the other's laws.)

      The joke is it's illegal to discriminate based on country of origin in the US, too.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  3. Will this carry over to other online services? by iknownuttin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The Second Life TOS was a take-it-or-leave-it clickwrap deal. The site operator had superior bargaining power over the plaintiff and, Judge Robreno found, there were no reasonable available market alternatives to Second Life.

    I wonder if this will be applied to other service on the web. It seams that every site has one of these agreements.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:Will this carry over to other online services? by Zironic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem would be that for most other services there are "reasonable available market alternatives". The thing I wonder though is that if all the companies have the same crappy TOS does that then mean that there isn't any reasonable option and all the TOS's get invalidated?

    2. Re:Will this carry over to other online services? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      yeah, if there were alternatives to SL (rather than having a real life) and they all had the same type of clause, is there still a problem?

    3. Re:Will this carry over to other online services? by Original+Replica · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I have to wonder if the the Linden Dollar (and linden real estate) having a real world value weighs the need for a two sided arbitration more heavily. From the courts view (I imagine) the only thing at stake in a WoW arbitration is your $15 subscription fee, where as Second Life has some more significant monetary attachments. When there is real money involved the government is sure to follow.

      --
      We are all just people.
  4. now I gotta rewrite my EULA by ILuvRamen · · Score: 2, Funny

    Oh darn now I gotta rewrite my new program's EULA that says "if you don't like my program or it breaks your computer, go **** yourself." Lol I think it's good idea to force game makers actually responsible for stuff that happens in it and its customers well being.

    --
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  5. I thought so... by WK2 · · Score: 0

    I've long suspected that a contract was invalid if it was unfair, and one-sided, but IANAL. I looked up unconscionable. It seems to be what I thought.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consideration_under_A merican_law

    --
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  6. Precedent? by evanbd · · Score: 3, Informative

    Unless I'm mistaken, this isn't an appeals court, and therefore doesn't actually set precedent. Other courts can still apply the same logic though.

    1. Re:Precedent? by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Informative

      It doesn't set a "real" precedent, but a lawyer can walk into a court in Texas and say "well, in this parallel case here, the decision was..." and the judge can either ignore it or not, at his discretion.

      --
      If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
    2. Re:Precedent? by nomadic · · Score: 5, Informative

      Persuasive authority is a lot more useful than most people realize, especially federal court decisions.

    3. Re:Precedent? by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 4, Informative

      You are absolutely correct, nomadic. Those who say it's not a precedent do not understand how the common law system works.

      Judges are looking for reasoning that helps them to resolve the case that is before them. When they find that another judge has thought these issues through carefully, and has fashioned an eminently sensible and just conclusion, they will usually go for it.

      Of course it's easier for a judge if there's an appellate decision from his circuit telling him what he must do, but many, perhaps, most, litigated issues don't have the benefit of that kind of binding 'precedent'.... otherwise the issue would not even be in litigation. The lawyers would have read the binding precedent and followed it rather than frivolously ignore it.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
  7. An eye on WoW by BobMcD · · Score: 4, Interesting


    I, for one, will be VERY interested to see if Blizzard responds to this in any way. Their policy is very much the same, as is their penchance for banning accounts and restricting access to real-world-value. (And remember, legality does not negate value in most cases. The IRS would have you pay income tax on your drug deals, if you follow the letter of the law.) So will the rules shift in favor of the end-user?

    Likewise, what other EULA's might fall victim to the 'no viable market alternative' argument? Windows comes to mind.

    This will surely die on appeal, but still, the possible implications are interesting.

    1. Re:An eye on WoW by AaxelB · · Score: 3, Funny

      Seems risky to say "no viable market alternative" to Windows on Slashdot, as arguable as that may be.

      It would be interesting if MS were attacked on those grounds, because the obvious (IA certainly NAL) defense is highlighting the viable market alternatives, which any monopolist is loath to do. Likewise, all those who would enjoy seeing MS lose would be caught in the Catch-22 of admitting that [insert favorite minority OS] is a non-viable alternative... I think this has solid potential for some entertaining threads here and there.

    2. Re:An eye on WoW by BobMcD · · Score: 1


      I agree and wish I know more about how this part of the law works.

      The argument here was that there were not enough other games that allowed real-world value exchange.

      The parallel arguement, I would think, could be drawn along the lines of running the majority of commercially available software. Without Windows (or as more recently argued by MS, without use of their patents) you simply can't access a LOT of software.

      IANAL, but still these ideas seem similar to me.

    3. Re:An eye on WoW by sampson7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One key element of the Judge's (very well written) opinion is that Second Life holds itself out as granting something akin to a traditional property right in the virtual world that it has created. Blizzard's policy, in contrast, has always been that it owns the virtual "property" and grants you a license to play with it.

      In other words, Second Life offers to let you buy a portion of its sandbox, while Blizzard merely lets you play in it. In one case, you can take your toys and go home since you own the toys, in the other, you cannot.

    4. Re:An eye on WoW by tepples · · Score: 1

      Seems risky to say "no viable market alternative" to Windows on Slashdot, as arguable as that may be. It might be easier to argue that there is no viable market alternative to some of the specialized applications that are exclusively designed for Windows.
    5. Re:An eye on WoW by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      In addition, as Blizzard restricts selling of in-game items, the only actual 'value' an account has is the subscription fee. It doesn't matter if he put in months of work on his character, without the ability to transfer that or items to real money, it legally has about as much legal protection as a high score on an arcade machine, aka, none at all. (Yes, in reality, Blizzard doesn't care about trivial item sales, and only goes after companies that actually try to make money, as opposed to someone who finds themselves with a somewhat valuable item they don't need and throws it up on eBay. But sale aren't technically allowed at all under the account contract, IIRC.)

      All anyone could possibly sue Blizzard for is the loss of their account and all in-game assets is the money they actually spent on the physical game (Which is worthless without an account.) and whatever time was left on their account.

      Second Life is another matter altogether, like you said. They takes exactly the opposite stance on resell of their items.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  8. Not a good decision, really by realmolo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While I agree that the terms of the "click-through" license are fairly ridiculous...

    We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.

    And more importantly, the makers/administrators of giant multiplayer games (or worlds) kind of NEED to be able to terminate accounts at will. What if a player/group of players find a bug in the game and are able to use it to cheat? Or worse, use it to gain access to the personal computers of OTHER players without their permission? If they had to go through a whole "termination process", players could wreak havoc at will in those kinds of situations. And what could the admins of the servers do? They can't terminate the accounts. They can't just shut off the servers (because that would be the equivalent of terminating *everybody's* account). The only recourse it to quickly try and patch the software before the problem gets entirely out of hand. They do that anyway, really, but it's a lot harder when the entire server is going to hell because of the exploit.

    I won't even get into the whole idea of Second Life property being equivalent to "real" property. That's just ridiculous, and I expect this guy to lose his case because of that anyway.

    1. Re:Not a good decision, really by jt418-93 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      --]I won't even get into the whole idea of Second Life property being equivalent to "real" property. That's just ridiculous, and I expect this guy to lose his case because of that anyway.

      except linden has set up a direct dollar to linden exchange procedure, giving things a real world value. that is something they created themselves.

      as to other games, whether you agree or not, as long as someone will pay real money for something, it has value and is treated 'real'. they're going to tax your online income if it exceeds XXX$, it doesn't matter if you made it on ebay or selling 'the uber codpiece of erections' in some game. money is money, and where there is money, there are lawyers.

      --
      -.no
    2. Re:Not a good decision, really by cduffy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.
      Not just any computer game, though -- a computer game where very large amounts of real-world money are exchanged. "Linden Dollars" are exchangeable for real ones; there are folks whose in-game activities constitute their entire income.
    3. Re:Not a good decision, really by Zironic · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think you missed what the judge decided.

      So far the judge has decided it is unreasonable to expect users to have to go through Arbitration court since it gives all the benefits to the company and all the downsides to the user.

      The case itself though will most likely be lost by the user since virtual property doesn't have any real value (if it had you would have to pay tax for it and I wouldn't want to do that).

      What I would like to see is that admins get to keep their ability to ban people for whatever reason but that users get a fair chance to defend themselves if they feel they became unjustly banned.

    4. Re:Not a good decision, really by ponos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.

      To the extent that the people involved pay real money and to the extent that they feel genuinely frustrated about losing the account, the harm is very, very real. Using your logic, there is no harm in being publicly ridiculed or finding out that your girlfriend enjoyed a whole soccer team. An MMO can be an important social activity (in the sense that it involves people) and please realize that even if you (or me, for that matter) don't feel attached to their avatar or game "lives", other people do.

      P.
    5. Re:Not a good decision, really by hibiki_r · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's backwards: If it can be converted into money, it has real value. You can exchange US dollars for linden dollars and vice versa, by going through the developer itself!

      Besides, what does taxing have to do with anything? If I don't pay taxes on something that the tax code claims should be taxed you are not dealing with something with no value: what you have is tax evasion. Don't put the cart before the horse

    6. Re:Not a good decision, really by lena_10326 · · Score: 1, Offtopic

      I really get irritated with the moderation on slashdot. Too many moderators here are modding down to register disagreement. Not what it's meant for.

      Whether I agree or disagree with the parent, it obviously wasn't flamebait.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    7. Re:Not a good decision, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Too many moderators here are modding down to register disagreement. Not what it's meant for.


      Correct, it is obviously for censorship.
    8. Re:Not a good decision, really by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      We ARE talking about a computer game, here. There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.

      There's a certain amount of investment into an online character and a social group. It's not very easily quantifiable but I wouldn't suggest it's worthless.

    9. Re:Not a good decision, really by honkycat · · Score: 1

      There's nothing preventing the maintainers from suspending an account immediately, pending a fair evaluation and possible reinstatement. The options are not simply "do nothing" or "can the account instantly." Like it or not, MMORPGs (or whatever the currently preferred abbreviation is this week) have created worlds that contain items with real-world value. This quite probably creates responsibilities for the maintainers that they can't just opt out of. Obviously, the legal landscape will take time to develop, but there is plenty of precedent for that sort of responsibility. For example, if you construct a playground in your back yard, you are responsible for taking prudent and sufficient steps to prevent people from harming themselves on it. Even though it's on your private property, the mere fact that you have it gives you a potentially expensive responsibility.

      Second Life in particular seems to be set up with the idea of permitting value for its items (tho i've never played, just going from comments here). IMO that'll make them especially culpable for maintaining an equitable system to prevent users value from just vanishing. It doesn't mean they can't shut down or go out of business, merely that they can't do so arbitrarily and they may have restrictions on how they can make that decision and what kind of notification they have to provide.

      Anyway, IANAL and none of the above is set yet, but that's my opinion of how things will play out based on a very crude knowledge of laws and a bit of logic....

    10. Re:Not a good decision, really by abertoll · · Score: 1

      Kind of like how they put "no cash value" on coupons huh? I think there's something illegal about creating your own tender or money in the US.

      --
      "he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
    11. Re:Not a good decision, really by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

      "And what could the admins of the servers do?"

      1) Ask the users nicely not to do it, warning them of suspensions if they do not listen
      2) suspend them
      3) Fix bug
      4) unsuspend them

      That seems pretty straightforward to me.

      --
      You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
    12. Re:Not a good decision, really by VidEdit · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I think there's something illegal about creating your own tender or money in the US."

      It isn't about creating "your own legal tender," it is about creating something which has value. And in the case of Second Life, the value can be potentially bartered or sold.
      Keep in mind that stocks are virtual property, too, but you wouldn't want the NYSE kicking out of trading and keeping your stocks. Also, the IRS **is** looking into the possibility of taxing virtual property in games.

      "Kind of like how they put "no cash value" on coupons huh?"

      Coupons are **discounts** and are not at all comparable to Second Life property.

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    13. Re:Not a good decision, really by makomk · · Score: 1

      The idea of Second Life property being equivalent to "real" property may seem ridiculous, but it's one that the makers of Second Life, Linden Labs, have encouraged. There's some interesting coverage of the case at the Second Life Herald.

    14. Re:Not a good decision, really by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1

      There's something very Orwellian about a system that grants people "Karma" and labels them "Insightful" or "Interesting" for agreeing with groupthink or moderating it up. Whereas if you disagree with groupthink you get labelled a Troll, irrespective of how good your argument is. And if you mod it up you get penalised in metamoderation. I should know, I've tested various posting and modding arguments from the plausible to the utterly ludicrous and the moderation is solely dependent on whether you back the popular side.

      These legal stories are particularly obnoxious in that respect - there are heaps of comments which start with IANAL but end with a highly tenuous legal explanation of why legally their favoured side will win. If you argue for the popular side, you get modded up, and if you argue for the unpopular side you get modded down. Kind of ironic actually, whereas most slashdotters rightly despise American high school culture where popular=right regardless of intelligence, in practice there's no difference between that and slashdot.

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    15. Re:Not a good decision, really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You a crazy man.

    16. Re:Not a good decision, really by asuffield · · Score: 1

      And more importantly, the makers/administrators of giant multiplayer games (or worlds) kind of NEED to be able to terminate accounts at will. What if a player/group of players find a bug in the game and are able to use it to cheat? Or worse, use it to gain access to the personal computers of OTHER players without their permission? If they had to go through a whole "termination process", players could wreak havoc at will in those kinds of situations. And what could the admins of the servers do? They can't terminate the accounts. They can't just shut off the servers (because that would be the equivalent of terminating *everybody's* account). The only recourse it to quickly try and patch the software before the problem gets entirely out of hand. They do that anyway, really, but it's a lot harder when the entire server is going to hell because of the exploit.


      They need, and have, the ability to terminate accounts for just cause, such as exploiting the game to steal, commit fraud, or cause damage. They do not need, and do not have, the right to terminate accounts without just cause and in a manner that causes actual damage to the user whose account is terminated, regardless of the form which that damage might take. Anybody who is running a profit-making business within a game will suffer actual damage if their account is terminated, so it is illegal for the operator to do this without a good reason. Such a user does have the right to have a court examine whether there was a good reason.

      It's okay for Blizzard to clearly make a rule that farming gold and then selling it for real-world money is prohibited, and then terminate the accounts of people who break that rule. It's not okay for them to terminate an account because they don't like the user. Etcetera.

      Their right to control what happens on their servers ends at the point where other people's right to not be unfairly injured begins. This is true for anything, not just games, and not just software. The courts do not care about the medium, only the injury.
    17. Re:Not a good decision, really by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      How do you know if ANYTHING has value? Simple - if somebody is willing to give you money for it, there is value.

      An autograph can have value greater than the paper and the ink. A baseball hit over the center field wall can have more value than the baseball that was fouled out by the previous pitch to the same batter.

      Even in online games that forbid trading of characters, such trading occurs, and therefore such characters have value. Now, you can potentially argue whether players had been given advance warning that the game was not going to be managed in a way to preserve the economy. However, that doesn't mean that virtual property has no value.

      How about domain names? If I bribe a registrar to assign me microsoft.com, is Microsoft's only remedy to sue me to reimburse their $7 registration fee?

      I don't think the virtual nature of the transactions make it any less susceptible to charges of fraud, if such fraud actually occurred...

    18. Re:Not a good decision, really by Rich0 · · Score: 1

      Additionally, the REAL harm argument is pretty vague. What REAL harm do you suffer if I steal a couple of rocks out of your bedroom - it isn't like diamonds are edible, provide warmth, or provide shelter? So, you don't really suffer "REAL" harm just because I stole $50k worth of them.

      If I possess something that can be legally traded for cash, and I'm deprived of it, then I've suffered harm. Now, there might be an argument as to whether the person who caused the loss had a duty to care for your stuff. If you deposit $500 in a bank they obviously must care for it. If you check a coat with a pocket full of diamonds while you're at dinner and you don't mention the diamonds to anybody in charge, then you're going to be up the creek if those diamonds disappear (the owner could argue that if they had known about the diamonds that they'd either refuse to store the coat, or they might have given it greater protection).

      In this case, the Second Life game expressly encourages real-world-cash transactions, which means they are liable for running the economy in a way that provides some stability to such transactions.

    19. Re:Not a good decision, really by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      No they don't. They put fractional cent values on them.

      They do that not because it's illegal to print your own money, which it technically is not.(1) At least, not if it's backed by something of value, aka, real money, not fiat money.(2)

      They print a fractional cent value on them so that you can't show up at their headquarters and demand you give them money in exchange for the coupons. Aka, they only pay the big value on the coupons if you are a retail establishment and you hand them in with some evidence that a customer turned them in and you gave them that discount. Anyone else, they'll give you 1/20th or 1/100th of a cent per non-expired coupon. (Which no one actually does, because that would be stupid. It would be more efficient to stand around in a store waiting for someone pick up the item to purchase it, and sell them the coupon for half price.)

      1) Although try telling that to the people who have created their own money and been illegally shut down by the government. eGold seems to be operating with no problems, but, OTOH, they haven't tried printing any notes, which is what the laws are aimed at. Although, like I said, the laws only prohibit printing unbacked money...notes that promise something of value, like gold, are as legal to print as concert tickets and coat check receipts. (That is, as legal to print by a company that will actually fulfill the promise. Obviously, anything else would be fraud of some sort.)

      2) Coupons, if they were legally 'real', would presumably fall under the same category as money orders, traveler's checks, and bearer bonds, they are merely promises a company will pay dollars, and aren't 'their own tender', so wouldn't be illegal under any theory of anything. But they are not even that.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    20. Re:Not a good decision, really by jp10558 · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure it's legal to print "fiat" money as well, as long as it doesn't look like Federal Reserve Notes. See Ithaca Hours for instance. While it's not "legal tender" in that someone *has* to accept it, if someone *chooses to accept it*, it counts as a legal payment (like barter as far as I can tell).

      Libertydollar.org has some writeups regarding this, while that money is backed by silver, I'd guess lots of that would apply to anyone.

      IANAL.

      --
      Opera, Proxomitron-Grypen,GPG 0x0A1C6EE3
    21. Re:Not a good decision, really by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      Correct, it is obviously for censorship.
      3 moderators thought your comment was funny, and I have no idea why. It really wasn't funny nor did it reflect my comment. I guess there's some inside joke you're hinting at, or, you're projecting something that's not there.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
    22. Re:Not a good decision, really by DavidTC · · Score: 1

      Legally, yes.

      But the government will shut you down anyway.

      Ithaca Hours do not count. They are specified in dollars. Having non-dollar currencies is what, apparently, the government does not like.

      Incidentally, the liberty dollar is not 'backed' money. They are backed by some silver, but it is not the amount that is the value they are purchased for. I.e., if you were to purchase a 20, and redeem it for silver instantly, you would not get 20 dollars. (You can tell because you can purchase them at a discount, which is completely nonsensical for backed currency.) They also change value based on the value of the dollars. They are, indeed, fiat money, not 'real money' as the issuers proclaim.

      But they are also in dollars, and the US government doesn't appear to take issue with tiny schemes that use US dollars as the base. Because those are not, in any meaningful sense, 'alternate currency'...they are gift certificates. All the gift certificates in the world won't change the value of US currency, and in fact, printing those up and having someone else back them with currency will help remove currency from circulation as the certificate remains unused but the issuer continues to hold the money. Like pennies do now. Even if they're unbacked, they aren't hurting anything except possibly the people who got them in the first place.

      It's the same with Ithaca Hours. Those can never compete with US dollars, because they are US dollars.

      What the US government actually cares about, and what is legal but always mysteriously runs into all sorts legal difficulties, are a) fiat money not tied to the dollar, and b) backed currency not tied to the dollars. (Incidentally, a) is nearly impossible to set up outside a single community.) Any legal difficulties seem to be related to how widely they are used...until there is a large group of people who get paid entirely in this alternate currency and buys their goods and services using it, it's not really going to effect the economy.

      eGold is the only company I can think of that would qualify for that...and, hey, look. eGold is, right now, under indictment on completely made up charges. Because eGold was smart enough not to print paper, which is what previous 'dollar competitors' have been hassled about, the government had to assert that, apparently, transfering ownership and letting people redeem that ownership at banks, is somehow 'money laundering', despite the fact that the stock market has been doing it for decades. Hell, the commodities market has even been doing it in gold.

      Oh, look, they even threw in some 'child pornography' nonsense, despite the fact that eGold is the only closed and completely recorded monetary system in the universe. I.e., it's completely impossible to do anything with eGold that the company does not know about and maintain records of, including getting money out and in. Considering that eGold cooperates fully with any warrants, handing over all records, and keeps said records forever, it would be the stupidest system in the world to commit any illegal activity over. (Of course, they transfered their money in and out via wire transfer to banks, which don't keep records forever, but that wouldn't be eGold's fault, and criminals could have presumably just wired money directly between banks and had no trace, instead of using eGold and having a record in the middle but not at one or both ends.)

      Yet, there they are, in court, for no apparent reason. Apparently, the FBI had, as policy, not to alert eGold to child porn payments tracked into its system, despite the fact eGold would have cooperated, and despite the fact that said transfers could then be tracked to the originating bank account. No, much better to keep quite about all this to use it in court to take down eGold. Which, I guess, is like letting a murderer go free so that you can indict a trash pickup company for being an accessory after the fact after they take away the murder's trash and bury it after he's thrown the murder weapon away. But the trash pickup company is competing with the government's trash pickup services, and the murderer isn't.

      --
      If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
    23. Re:Not a good decision, really by lena_10326 · · Score: 1

      I've read the FAQ on the reasoning for the Slashdot moderation scheme and I agree with some of its concepts, but the problem I have with it is there's no clear distinction of modding for purposes of silencing & identifying trolls versus modding for agreement or flagging well written posts. My second problem is the moderation weighs negative modding equivalently to positive modding. It ought to be unbalanced towards the positive because people tend to be more aggressive when modding down. My last problem is the moderation appears to be invisible (no one knows who modded who). Of course, I haven't modded or meta-modded here so I could be wrong so I assume it's invisible. I think it should be visible to all because moderators would think twice before modding down in anger or spite.

      --
      Camping on quad since 1996.
  9. I hope this is challenged... by RyanFenton · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'd like this decision to be reinforced at every level of the American justice system: No matter what you force someone to sign, you can't take away their right to challenge you on a legal issue in a public court.

    America shouldn't be in the business of forcing people to obey the random "magical wishes' contained within every contract some jerk forces people to sign.

    The next thing I fear: We'll have to find a federal judge to sign our EULAs to authorize the active denial our own rights before we get to play a game. Either that, or a law passed by congress or a new ruling by the justice department to take away the rights they can't get by contract anymore.

    Ryan Fenton

    1. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Forced to sign?

      Care to share which contracts you have been forced at gun point to sign? I've signed a few in my day and clicked I Agree to plenty of others... but never were firearms involved... in those cases I felt the contract's terms were 'unfair'... I simply refused to sign.

    2. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Forced to sign as in "Agree to this or waste the money you spent buying this game because you can't play unless you do and few companies accept returns with opened boxes, a prerequisite to seeing this screen."

      I don't know of any recourse you can take to get your money back in the case you don't agree with, say, Battlefield 2142's EULA. The moment you see that EULA none of the game stores I know of will let you refund as you opened the box and the company's just going to tell you to accept it.

      Force doesn't necessarily mean physical force. In many cases the most potent forces are the ones of the mind, a blackmailer doesn't hold a gun to your head but I don't think you'd say he's not forcing you to do something. In the same way many software companies hold your money ransom and demand you accept or lose it and get nothing back.

      This becomes irrelevant if you can returned the open game or find the EULA before opening the box but both are exceedingly rare where I live. You really have no good choices if you don't like the EULA, you can decline and lose your money or accept and lose your freedom. What a choice...

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    3. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Care to share which contracts you have been forced at gun point to sign?


      Automobile insurance.
      Provincial park regulations.

      There are plenty of obligatory contracts that are legislated by governments lobbied by corporations and enforced by goons with guns (cops).

      I no longer own an automobile or use provincial parks for this very reason, but I have been forced to sign (and pay) for both at gunpoint.

      I have not been forced at gunpoint to sign a tax return for an income of zero yet, but the time will come when they catch up with me. The only way to avoid forced contracts is to drop out of society altogether, which is what I have done.

      I'm sure there are other examples.

      (I am not Ryan.)
    4. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      So... after voluntarily buying the game the user is forced to agree to the EULA? Again, they made the choice to buy the software, almost certainly knowing that there would be an enclosed EULA and if they did not take the proper steps to know what they were getting themselves into ahead of time, it is their fault for not being informed consumers... you know, buyer beware.

    5. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Bad news friend... all of these 'obligatory' contracts you speak of are actually voluntary. Your example is like saying "I hate being forced to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas to fuel up my car!" or "I hate being forced to pay $9.25 to see a first run movie"... at no point are you being forced to pay for gas as you are not forced to own a car nor see the movie.
      Sure, you may feel compelled to own a car but at no point are you absolutely required to own one, there are always alternatives. Hell, I live in a town of 6200 people in South Dakota and know a number of people who do not drive or even have licenses due to the costs involved in voluntarily having/doing either.

      If you don't want to carry auto insurance don't, just remember that you may not be able to own a car as a result. Don't want to pay to use a park? So don't use it!

      Last I checked a tax return isn't a contract... and I'm sorry that where you live is so draconian that it requires the filing of returns even when there is no income... but even that I doubt.

      Even still, income or not, contract or not, paying taxes like that is part of the price you pay for being a resident or citizen of a given area. Don't like it? Last I checked you are free to move and even renounce your citizenship and move elsewhere to a place with a more favorable tax system.

    6. Re:I hope this is challenged... by timeOday · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Forced to sign? Care to share which contracts you have been forced at gun point to sign?
      That argument is a sham. It relies on the assertion that a person could realistically read and understand the ridiculously complicated legal agreements that govern a hundred different things you do every day, from credit card agreements to software EULAs. That assertion is false. Pretending people could take the time and have the expertise to plow through multitudes of lengthy legal documents is just absurd. Business-to-individual contracts are obviously unequal. A business could no more realistically enter into a different contract with every individual, than a individual can enter into a different contract with every business - yet that's exactly what we require of individuals legally. The payoff is this allows businesses to dictated whatever terms they desire.

      Instead, there should be only a fixed set of end-user licenses from which businesses can choose. Or, at the very least, there should be a set of consumer protection clauses which apply to all end-user licenses, overriding whatever wishes the businesses may have.

    7. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Alzdran · · Score: 1

      There's more to it than this - EULAs almost universally provide for a refund if you don't agree to the terms and return the software.. now, plenty of retailers refuse to accept back software once the shrinkwrap is off, so there seems to be a conflict there, but I'm sure it'd be interesting if someone pushed it.

    8. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      unless there is nowhere with a more favourable tax system. In which case you're *forced* to stay with the bad system or another equally bad system.

      In the world of arguing about conracts 'forced' means being given two bad choices, or a choice & a non-choice. It never has and never will mean putting a gun to someone's head and telling them to sign - such a contract is not valid anyway.

    9. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      but never were firearms involved... in those cases I felt the contract's terms were 'unfair'... I simply refused to sign.


      It's a great thing to grow up in a modern western society where you're so wealthy and protected that you can't even conceive of anything existing outside your utopian libertarian ideals. I hope you aren't too disappointed when you get out of high school and realize Ayn Rand was a writer of fiction, and the people in power dynamics she discussed had little relationship to reality.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    10. Re:I hope this is challenged... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Bad news friend... all of these 'obligatory' contracts you speak of are actually voluntary.

      Nope. They are required to use things I have a "right" to use. So, if I have a right to use them, and have to sign something before I can use them, then I was forced.

      Last I checked a tax return isn't a contract.

      It is a legal document. The terminology isn't quite right to call it a contract, but it is pretty close to one.

      Don't like it? Last I checked you are free to move and even renounce your citizenship and move elsewhere to a place with a more favorable tax system.


      Right, you are FORCED to sign or move. It is force. Just like the others. You are forced to sign or experience excessive inconvenience or loss of freedom. It is force. Not the "do it or die" force, but "do it or you will receive negative consequences" force.

    11. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NewYorkCountryLawyer · · Score: 1

      Well spoken, timeOday.

      It was a classic contract of adhesion, and the decision is a very important precedent.

      --
      Ray Beckerman +5 Insightful
    12. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      What a lovely ill-informed ad-hominem attack.

    13. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      You are correct that that usually exists in the EULA and just gave me an idea...

      Given the increasing commonness of online activation, I'm forced to wonder if we are one day going to see a time when retailers and software vendors work together so that if a customer returns opened software to the store, the retailer has the ability to cancel the associated CD key, rendering any current (assuming the software calls home from time to time) or future installs.

      Sure it wouldn't be a perfect solution, it sure would be far better than what we've got today and while it wouldn't completely eliminate this as an avenue of piracy, the work to bypass it would be similar to that of simply downloading the same software from a warez site.

    14. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Khashishi · · Score: 1

      They really gotta start printing EULAs on the outside of the box, clearly visible. That's the only way they can be considered enforcible. Shame that there will be less room for any screenshots.

    15. Re:I hope this is challenged... by RobertLTux · · Score: 1

      easy way to get around this a "Standard Title WebHome" this would have

      1 a correct and complete description of the game
      2 a list of currently available patches
      3 a list of currently available addons
      4 the [redacted] EULA: to be put on a separate page suitable for printing

      What i would like to see is more companies that will do things like Steam (if i don't own the game then i should always be able to get a new copy from the publisher)

      --
      Any person using FTFY or editing my postings agrees to a US$50.00 charge
    16. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't like libertarians.. but what does your reply have to do with the post you are responding to? There is a lot of sense in saying that you shouldn't sign contracts without reading and understanding them before agreeing to them.

    17. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      but what does your reply have to do with the post you are responding to? There is a lot of sense in saying that you shouldn't sign contracts without reading and understanding them before agreeing to them.


      Indeed there is, but that's not what he said.

      He was providing the standard party line of Ayn Rand fans everywhere, that only through the use of guns is anyone ever forced to do anything. If there were no guns involved, then obviously everyone involved was on an equal negotiating footing and everything was completely voluntary and well-informed.

      Anyone who has lived or traveled outside the modern western world (or heck, even thought about economic history for a few minutes) knows that there are plenty of forms of "persuasion" that don't involve the use of firearms, but can be sufficiently coercive and threatening to survival.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    18. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      What a lovely ill-informed ad-hominem attack.


      If you believe that firearms are the only way to force anyone to do anything, then you're the one who is ill-informed.

      I was merely being optimistic that you are in junior high or high school and recently read Ayn Rand to be clinging so dearly to such a naive view of power dynamics. That your views happen to coincide exactly with her fictional libertarian utopian ideals -- and not with any form of economic, political or social reality in world history -- was me giving you the benefit of the doubt that you have simply led a sheltered life, secure in the nurturing NERF cocoon that is modern western society.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    19. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      Like I said, ill-informed.

    20. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      > Nope. They are required to use things I have a "right" to use.
      Driving is a right? I could have sworn it was a privilege, hence the need for a license, something that historically is known for being a means of giving permission.\

      Again, you make the choice to exercise this privilege and by doing so you play by the rules... just as you play by the rules of paying the bill when you go out to eat at a restaurant. No one is forcing you to do either.

      Even if such activities are 'rights'... rights do not stand alone, instead they go hand in hand with responsibility. You have the 'right' to have children while at the same time you have responsibilities towards them... even ones that are 'forced' on you if you will... by your voluntary action of procreation.

      > You are forced to sign or experience excessive inconvenience or loss of freedom.

      Once again, freedoms are not free.

    21. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      You realize that the argument you are making is quite similar to the defense Paris Hilton used... that she didn't actually read the previous agreement where she was told she couldn't drive.

      As any judge will tell you, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

      If you are unwilling or unable to understand the details of a contract you've got two options... don't sign it and go without, or sign it and blindly hope that everything goes without a problem.

    22. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      I can only go by what you write. If you say that the use of a gun is the only form of force, then your display of inexperience can only be judged by your own words.

      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    23. Re:I hope this is challenged... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 1

      No matter what you force someone to sign, you can't take away their right to challenge you on a legal issue in a public court.
      That is a rule which is enforced all the time in the US. The problem we typically have with EULAs is that we see them as "forcing," and many others do not see them as "forcing" anything. If the license is not "forcing" the end user to do anything against their will, then the rule does not clash with a decision in favor of the software company.
    24. Re:I hope this is challenged... by AK+Marc · · Score: 1

      Driving is a right?

      No, but using the roads are.

      Once again, freedoms are not free.


      Yes, you are FORCED to make concessions. Note the word "force." It is appropriate in this case, despite the complaints otherwise.

    25. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Hal_Porter · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What happens if all the alternatives games have these terms? Or there are no alternative games?

      And example would be banking in the UK. Even thóugh in theory there are four or five highstreet banks and you can change between them, few people do because most banks have the same terms. For example they all decided to charge for cash withdrawals from other banks machine within days of each other. Similarly, when charges for cashing cheques increase, the increase is done by all the banks simultaneously. So it's not cynical to say that a cartel is operating and the government should start to check for unconscionable terms. Actually, the banks seem to understand this. If you write to them and complain the back down, and every so often they will make some change which is outrageously expensive and then one of them will buckle under public pressure. And then of course all the others do, which is just more evidence of a cartel.

      Now there's nothing except convenience stopping people using an offshore bank for example, but many of those are being bought up by high street banks or building societies.

      Actually, in an efficient capitalist country like the UK or the US, it is almost inevitable that this sort of thing will develop. State of the art business is about state of the art contracts, and those are the ones which benefit you most. Even Adam Smith knew about this

      People of the same trade seldom meet together, even for merriment and diversion, but the conversation ends in a conspiracy against the public, or in some contrivance to raise prices. It is impossible indeed to prevent such meetings, by any law which either could be executed, or would be consistent with liberty and justice. But though the law cannot hinder people of the same trade from sometimes assembling together, it ought to do nothing to facilitate such assemblies; much less to render them necessary.


      One of the things I liked about Sweden was that businesses have much less of a tendency towards unconscionable contract terms. But that's partly because it is a less capitalist place. It seems to me that you need capitalism but yout also need some cartel busting system of laws. Which the US seems to have, if this judgement is representative.
      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    26. Re:I hope this is challenged... by TheTapani · · Score: 1

      One of the things I liked about Sweden was that businesses have much less of a tendency towards unconscionable contract terms. But that's partly because it is a less capitalist place. ...and mostly because there are two sets of laws, one for deals between two businesses and one for deals between a business and a consumer. Consumers have rights that cannot be negotiated away, and there are laws that nullify unreasonable contracts for consumers. //T
    27. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Intrinsic · · Score: 1

      I hope you aren't too disappointed when you get out of high school and realize Ayn Rand was a writer of fiction, and the people in power dynamics she discussed had little relationship to reality.


      I'm not sure what you mean here... If you are saying that Ayn Rand views on top down government and control are to fictional to have any weight in the here and now of this reality, Id have to say that you haven't done your home work, and you aren't capable of seeing truth in fiction. People use lies to reveal the truth, its the best way to go about waking people up to the real. When fiction is written it can and often does have a real world impact on the world. People write fiction because of the times they were brought up in, or have had some deep effect on their persona. Get some books on centralized control and top down governing systems before you start spewing ideas that are extremely one sided and don't take in all of the facts. Thanks.
    28. Re:I hope this is challenged... by DaHat · · Score: 1

      > If you say that the use of a gun is the only form of force, then your display of inexperience can only be judged by your own words.

      Did I say that a gun is the only form of force? No. Do you honestly think that I think that firearms are the only way of exerting force? Don't bother answering, I really don't care what you think and am done.

      I'd suggest though being less quick to pronounce judgment... or are you the sort that if someone sounded cheap you'd call em a jew? If they sounded lazy you'd call them a Mexican? If they said something nice about the president you'd call them a neocon? If they were good at math and science you'd call them an Asian? If they expressed a like for fried chicken and orange drink you'd call em black? If they said something nice about Windows they'd be a cool-aid drinking Microsoft fanboy? The list goes on of such prejudices.

      Again, I don't care what you say or think on this as I'm done.

    29. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Jarjarthejedi · · Score: 1

      "Again, they made the choice to buy the software, almost certainly knowing that there would be an enclosed EULA"

      Okay...so I buy a product that I know will take away, say, 1 of my rights. I open it up and read the right it wants to take away to let me use the product. I don't want to give up that right. I'm therefore at fault for deciding to buy the game? Just because I know there's going to be a EULA for the game doesn't mean I know what it's going to demand. If I don't know what it's going to demand I have no idea whether I can accept it and I'm back where I started, stuck with the exact same choices and problems.

      Perhaps your assuming that the EULA can be read off a site somewhere, in which case the consumer would be responsible for reading it before buying to avoid this problem. I, for one, have never seen such a thing and doubt it's existence...

      --
      There are two kinds of fool One says 'This is old therefore good' Another says 'This is new therefore better'- Dean Ing
    30. Re:I hope this is challenged... by tepples · · Score: 1

      Your example is like saying "I hate being forced to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas to fuel up my car!" or "I hate being forced to pay $9.25 to see a first run movie"... at no point are you being forced to pay for gas as you are not forced to own a car nor see the movie. "You are not forced to eat." Eating requires purchasing food. Purchasing food requires earning money. Earning money requires commuting between work and home. In many towns, the only jobs that pay enough for rent, food, and utilities for your family either are located far from public transportation or have hours that start or end at night or on Sunday, when public transportation does not run. Therefore, commuting requires a car, gas, and insurance.
    31. Re:I hope this is challenged... by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      Anyone who has lived or traveled outside the modern western world (or heck, even thought about economic history for a few minutes) knows that there are plenty of forms of "persuasion" that don't involve the use of firearms, but can be sufficiently coercive and threatening to survival. That would be me (I've lived a lot more in Asia than I have in the US of late), but the person who first brought up the gun-point argument to me was an ultra-liberal college professor (ultra-liberal == someone who says the LA Times is a conservative newspaper). Government is all about the organized and authorized use of violence, by definition.
    32. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 1


      I'd suggest though being less quick to pronounce judgment... or are you the sort that if someone sounded cheap you'd call em a jew? If they sounded lazy you'd call them a Mexican? If they said something nice about the president you'd call them a neocon? If they were good at math and science you'd call them an Asian? If they expressed a like for fried chicken and orange drink you'd call em black? If they said something nice about Windows they'd be a cool-aid drinking Microsoft fanboy? The list goes on of such prejudices.


      Wow, i think you need to examine some of your views of the world even outside politics. You seem to have far more issues than economic ones.

      And yes, when you ask "Did he point a gun at you to make you sign the contract? No, then you did it voluntarily, idiot, and deserve to get ripped off!", you are clearly implying that if there is no gun, there is no coercion.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    33. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Government is all about the organized and authorized use of violence, by definition.


      It is?

      I'm not sure how an "ultra-liberal" could hold the idea that the only purpose of government is to force people to do things with guns. I really am not sure in what way your professor could be ultra-liberal in a traditional political sense if he genuinely believed governments had no legitimate function -- political liberalism generally relies heavily on the notion of collective action for greater good. Are you sure he wasn't libertarian, most are socially very liberal but have a distrustful view of government (indeed I consider myself a libertarian of that stripe, just not the crazy Ayn Rand/von Mises kind).
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    34. Re:I hope this is challenged... by NMerriam · · Score: 1

      When fiction is written it can and often does have a real world impact on the world.


      indeed it can, and does. But I've come across far too many followers of Ayn rand who seem -- for whatever reason -- to treat her books as works of historical documentary and argue political truths from them as if the actions of characters and groups in the book were, in fact, proof of her arguments. There's plenty of real historical fact to draw from to make political arguments -- works of fiction can be great for imagining worst-case scenarios or possible outcomes of certain social choices, but they are just thought exercises meant to spur our own thinking and imagine how different speculations match with what we've seen in real history and in our own lives.

      I enjoy her writing. I think it's a fantastic body of work, certainly influential on a lot of people and it makes for a fascinating point of view from someone who escaped what was arguably one of the most oppressive governments/societies in history. It's completely understandable given her background that she was batshit insane reactionary against any sort of centralized control, in much the same way it would be completely understandable for someone raised in a disastrous anarchy to be batshit insane reactionary against any percieved threat to law and order, no matter the personal cost.

      I have no problems with libertarians or libertarianism (I consider myself to be one), but I do have a problem with ludicrous responses such as the one from the poster who said straight out that if nobody was pointing a gun at the story subject's head when he agreed to the contract, it must have been his fully informed choice to agree to every term in it. That's the sort of 1-dimensional thinking on the use of force that is espoused in Rand's books and which annoys me to see people echoing without any caveats or indication that they've seen life outside the imaginary playground of her books.
      --
      Recursive: Adj. See Recursive.
    35. Re:I hope this is challenged... by Intrinsic · · Score: 1

      I have no problems with libertarians or libertarianism (I consider myself to be one), but I do have a problem with ludicrous responses such as the one from the poster who said straight out that if nobody was pointing a gun at the story subject's head when he agreed to the contract, it must have been his fully informed choice to agree to every term in it. That's the sort of 1-dimensional thinking on the use of force that is espoused in Rand's books and which annoys me to see people echoing without any caveats or indication that they've seen life outside the imaginary playground of her books.


      I don't know I think it was a bad analogy to link her work with his one sided view. Clearly its not easy to understand certain contract agreements, but I think he has a point. If people stopped signing contracts they don't understand or don't agree with, we wouldn't be in this situation where our rights are dictated to us before we received what we bought and payed for.

      I don't sign anything I don't agree with or don't understand. People need to take a stand in life and stop trading their values for commodities.
  10. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by Liberaltarian · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sadly, no! The most that will happen, save it reaching the Supreme Court, is that the decision will apply to the users/companies in the 3rd Circuit court's jurisdiction alone.

    A majority of Federal courts have ruled that shrinkwrap licenses are in general unenforceable, though a minority have affirmed that it is indeed a legally-binding document.

    However, we're dealing with what's called a "clickwrap" license, which hasn't nearly the legal history that shrinkwrap licenses have. This decision, if upheld (I guarantee it's going to be appealed), is certainly an important early move in the right direction.

    --
    The Fight for Student Power on Campus: www.forstudentpower.org.
  11. Xbox Live by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does this mean I can get my Xbox360 console unbanned from Xbox Live?!

  12. Re:Sorry, I disagree here... by Zxeses · · Score: 1

    It was in Pennsylvania you moron!

  13. BLIZZARD does the exact same thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They ban your ass at the drop of the hat. Had a friend who was "dual box'n". After a 24 hr gamefest he was banned and all accounts associated with the credit card because blizzard declared he was using wowglider which he was not. When asked for proof of his transgression they offered none and the ban stood. So he went from paying for two accounts w/6 month signups with a few transfers at $25 per pop for around at least $140+ every 6 month to not paying a dime. Just because "blizzard" said so.

    top it off with my situation where after coming back for the expansion to find my account stolen and activated (of whom i suspect someone at blizzard since they hit my account only after i didn't renew the first time and appeared to quit after i did renew) then turned around and disputed the charges for the months they did play which their cc company did, and when I asked blizzard about it they wouldn't tell me the cc company so i could take up the matter with authorities or the persons name, even though the cc that i paid for initially and then renewed with was exactly the same. To reactivate me account I had to pay for those months i didn't pay for otherwise my character would have been "banned" because of the theifs credit card dispute.

    fine they can take the game and go home, like a little baby, for all i care. I'm glad i quit after hitting 70 and ended up with "nothing fun" to do again like when i hit 60." Doubt i'd go back for the next expansion now after playing through the last one already.

    1. Re:BLIZZARD does the exact same thing by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 1

      Things like that are one reason why I
      -only have one account at a time in any online game
      -and pay for 3 months in advance at most.

      So if anything along these lines happens to my account, my financial loss will be rather limited and the company in question will never see me again as a customer.

      BTW, I'm talking about MMOGs in general, not Blizzard in particular. Blizzard are already on my personal boycott list for different (political) reasons.

      --
      C - the footgun of programming languages
    2. Re:BLIZZARD does the exact same thing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The major difference between World of Warcraft and Second Life:

      - In World of Warcraft, Blizzard states that they own everything. That epiced out level 70 character with a top arena ranking isn't yours. It is property of Blizzard. It has no monetary value. Instead, you are merely paying for access to that resource with your monthy fees.

      - In Second Life, I believe that your characters, items created by you, etc. are considered to be your property. In addition, I recall the game's currency has been given a fixed exchange rate with the US Dollar.

      In the first instance, if Blizzard kicks you off their server for violating their TOS, they are just denying you access to their property.

      In the second instance, if Linden Labs kicks you off their server for violating their TOS, they are denying you access to YOUR PROPERTY.

    3. Re:BLIZZARD does the exact same thing by Jeffrey+Baker · · Score: 1

      For what it's worth, the Linden floats against the dollar. You could, if you were really bored, try to make money by arbitraging Lindens against Dollars.

    4. Re:BLIZZARD does the exact same thing by makomk · · Score: 1

      For what it's worth, the Linden floats against the dollar. You could, if you were really bored, try to make money by arbitraging Lindens against Dollars.


      No, it doesn't. Linden Labs are essentially creating Linden Dollars from thin air and injecting them into the exchange (via "Supply Linden") in order to keep a stable exchange rate against the US Dollar. Supposedly, it was at one point possible to make money off fluctuations in the exchange rate, though.
  14. The end of Microsoft's EULA? by Randym · · Score: 4, Insightful
    (a) Procedural Unconscionability: A contract or clause is procedurally unconscionable if it is a contract of adhesion. Comb, 218 F. Supp. 2d at 1172; Flores v. Transamerica HomeFirst, Inc., 113 Cal. Rptr. 2d 376, 381-82 (Ct. App. 2001). A contract of adhesion, in turn, is a "standardized contract, which, imposed and drafted by the party of superior bargaining strength, relegates to the subscribing party only the opportunity to adhere to the contract or reject it."

    The interesting thing about this is that is being adjudicated under *Federal* law, rather than state law, because it involves interstate commerce. Any EULA -- not just Microsoft's -- is now in jeopardy, because, according to this ruling, an EULA is -- by definition -- a "contract of adhesion".

    The next thing that they should go after is the concept that you don't actually *own* software that you purchase, you only "license" it. That could certainly be seen as a "contract of adhesion" ('procedurally unconscionable') imposed in a one-sided way and thus unlawful as well.

    --
    DNA is a Turing machine. You, however, being dynamic and emergent, are not.
    1. Re:The end of Microsoft's EULA? by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      EULAs are unenforceable in most states. If your state has a "Sale of Goods" act, then it probably defines things. The main purpose of a EULA is to scare people off and fill in any gaps that may exist in the state legislation. So, even though most SW companies would like to pretend that you are only leasing their software, in most cases you are in fact buying it, with all the privileges that go with owning it.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    2. Re:The end of Microsoft's EULA? by taustin · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The next thing that they should go after is the concept that you don't actually *own* software that you purchase, you only "license" it.

      Adobe v. Softman is old news, and addressed exactly that, and was ruled in the correct way. In California, at least, if you A) pay a set amount, and B) get indefinite use of the software for that payment, it's a Sale of Goods, and the Right of First Sale (under Title 17) applies. That ruling is at least four or five years old now.

      This is why Microsoft is so desperate to get Windows and Office transferred over to a "pay per month or we turn it off" model.

    3. Re:The end of Microsoft's EULA? by trifish · · Score: 1

      you don't actually *own* software that you purchase

      If you owned Windows by buying one copy of it, you could e.g. start selling it. Ownership of software (as opposed to ownership of a copy) means ownership of intellectual property rights, i.e. ownership of copyright. You didn't that by buying a copy you own the software, did you.

  15. TOS invalidated for all MMOs, Gold sellers rejoice by phildawg · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    As most competent players have always felt, the TOS found in most all video games is unenforceable. How long until the first banned account decides to sue the video game companies for taking 'their' items and characters away. I'm very excited for this as it's one step closer to making gold selling legally acceptable.

  16. As the article says, you need both by unassimilatible · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The contract must be *both* procedurally (e.g., take-it-or-leave it, no alternatives, pre-printed) and substantively (e.g., unfair or hidden terms) unconscionable to be unenforceable. One is *not* enough - unfair isn't enough. The process must be unconscionable as well. BTW, arbitration clauses are presumed enforceable otherwise. Please do *not* rely on this as legal advice (but especially do *not* rely on Wikipedia for legal advice!). IAALBNYL (I Am A Lawyer But Not Your Lawyer).

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
    1. Re:As the article says, you need both by Reziac · · Score: 1

      I initially misread your disclaimer as "I Am A Lawyer But I Am Not New York Country Lawyer" :)

      Just curious, anything in particular in Wikipedia that hit your Beware nerve?

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
    2. Re:As the article says, you need both by sqlrob · · Score: 1

      So doesn't that apply to any EULA that includes "we may modify this at any time"? EULA's are generally take it or leave it, and if they can change it at any time, doesn't that make things hidden?

    3. Re:As the article says, you need both by Jackal912 · · Score: 1

      From what I can tell from WoW experience, is that every time they change it, you have to re-accept it before you can enter the game. It's essentially saying that if they make a contract with a gaping loophole, you can't keep exploiting that loophole indefinately if they fix it - it's not a 'lifetime' contract in which it's iron clad for both sides.

    4. Re:As the article says, you need both by solitas · · Score: 1
      ...and if they can change it at any time, doesn't that make things hidden?

      Not if they always make it available for you to read and compare, it doesn't.

      --
      "It's time to take life by the cans." ~ Bender ("Bendin' in the Wind", ep. 3-13)
    5. Re:As the article says, you need both by KDR_11k · · Score: 1

      True, it's not hidden but unfair works in place of that. I'd argue that a contract that doesn't give you any rights beyond those you already have and only (or almost exclusively) includes clauses that benefit the other party would be unfair.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    6. Re:As the article says, you need both by SL+Baur · · Score: 1

      From what I can tell from WoW experience, is that every time they change it, you have to re-accept it before you can enter the game. Mine too and they do not offer change bars or any other indication about what is different from the previous version.
  17. EULAs? by Turn-X+Alphonse · · Score: 1

    Why is it that EULAs can get away with this and yet this can't?

    --
    I like muppets.
    1. Re:EULAs? by fishthegeek · · Score: 1

      You're exactly correct. They are so closely related (the clickwrap and EULA) that a scenario where this ruling also applies to certain operating systems is not out of the question. IANAL

      --
      load "$",8,1
    2. Re:EULAs? by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Informative

      As I wrote elsewhere, EULAs are mostly bull. Go and read your state's "Sale of Goods Act" - it should have one and that is pretty much all that matters. The reason is that a Sale is the default action. For a transaction to be a Lease, the parties have to jump through very specific hoops and EULAs seldom do. Therefore, If it Looks like a Sale, Quacks like a Sale and Flies like a Sale, then it is a Sale, meaning that you most likely OWN your copy of MS Windows outright, despite what MS likes to pretend for example and that is why you can resell the CDs on Ebay.

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  18. the joys of the EULA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The software package I wrote contains a small snippet in the EULA which dictates that any female users of the program must perform fellatio on me if I should so request it from them, and if the end user is a male, I can require the same service from his wife.

    Do the job, or you're breaking the license agreement. Don't like it? read the fine print next time. God I love stupid people that think they can't argue.

    Life is good.

  19. A good decision - really by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Many non-material items are legally real property. Drug formulae, music, video game software, and others are ideas. People deserve to own their ideas and make money with them.

    Every Second Life player adds to the game's economic value by using it. They build linden "currency", which equals real US dollars. Players pay to join, right? No Las Vegas casino could let people play, and then refuse to cash in their chips for money.

    1. Re:A good decision - really by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The casinos have to deal with the Nevada State Gaming Control Board that regulates Nevada's gaming industry. Will we see some thing like that for on line games with real cash money in them?

    2. Re:A good decision - really by Mr2001 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Many non-material items are legally real property. Drug formulae, music, video game software, and others are ideas. Those are not "legally real property". Copyrights and patents themselves can, in some cases, be considered property, but the formulas, music, software, etc. that are covered by copyright or patents are not a form of property. You cannot own an idea or a number, but you can patent or copyright it.

      People deserve to own their ideas and make money with them. No, not necessarily. They deserve to be compensated for the work they do, but that doesn't have to mean legal monopolies on ideas or information: I get compensated for the work I do, and like most people, my job doesn't have any special legal protection. All I need is an agreement between my boss and myself that if I do X amount of work, I'll receive Y dollars. If I don't think that's enough, I have the option to stop working for him and find someone else who's willing to pay my asking price, or to enter another line of work, or to lower my expectations and settle for Y dollars.

      Similarly, if an artist or musician wants to get paid for painting or recording, he can find someone who'll agree to pay him for it. If he wants $10,000 to make a painting, and someone is willing to pay him $8000, he has the same options: accept the lower offer, look for another customer, or enter another line of work where customers are willing to pay more. What he doesn't need or deserve, however, is the option to make his painting for free, plaster copies of it all over walls and galleries, and then force anyone who looks at it or makes their own copy to pay him $10,000. That's just a way to avoid honest negotiations.
      --
      Visual IRC: Fast. Powerful. Free.
  20. This Bodes Well for the Dell Guy by darkonc · · Score: 1

    This bodes well for the guy who's suing Dell over the claim that they gave him a computer so broken that he couldn't even read the Adhesion contract that supposedly took away his right to go to court.

    --
    Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
    1. Re:This Bodes Well for the Dell Guy by Volante3192 · · Score: 1

      ...You mean Gateway. You even linked to the proper article and got the company wrong.

    2. Re:This Bodes Well for the Dell Guy by darkonc · · Score: 1

      Er, um, They're all the same ... and they'll all get strung up after the revolution.

      --
      Sometimes boldness is in fashion. Sometimes only the brave will be bold.
  21. If your dogs name is EULA.... by WwWonka · · Score: 0

    ..it is more than likely being anal raped now.

    (about time)

    1. Re:If your dogs name is EULA.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Should we wonder how you know this?

  22. Don't forget the FAA! by CubanCorona · · Score: 3, Informative

    Remember, the Federal Arbitration Act strongly favors the enforceability of arbitration agreements. This case likely came out the way it did because the practical implications of arbitration (in this specific case) would result in an unjust bias favoring Second Life or would make dispute resolution prohibitively expensive. A classic case regarding the enforceability of arbitration clauses is Adkins v. Labor Ready, Inc., 303 F.3d 496 (4th Cir. 2002) (upholding an arbitration agreement in an employment contract where the plaintiff could not show unconscionability or failure of consideration). While the enforceability of clickwrap agreements is a contemporary and evolving area of contract law, I don't think the implications of this decision are very far-reaching. This case deals specifically with an arbitration clause and so is a unique situation. I haven't read the opinion, but I suspect that the court held specifically that the arbitration clause was unconscionable as opposed to the entire clickwrap agreement. That is certainly important to note--the agreement may still be otherwise enforceable notwithstanding the arbitration clause.

    1. Re:Don't forget the FAA! by DingerX · · Score: 1

      I read it. For California, unconscionability has two parts, procedural and substantial, and to be determined unconscionable, both parts may be met, to a level reflecting an inverse relation between the two. So a contract can be procedurally unconscionable, but as long as the conditions are reasonable, it will meet the test. A "clickwrap" agreement is procedurally unconscionable. Being substantially unconscionable can include elements such as surprise (e.g., putting in a section entitled "Complimentary Copies" the line "The Author surrenders any claims to royalties or copyrights on the work" in 4-point type), the lack of competition NOT offering those terms, and excessively favoring the advantaged party.

      So yeah, you're right that the arbitration clause was unconscionable, but the clickwrap helped. So the extent goes beyond arbitration clauses, and you could try to use it for any number of bits of one-sided crap you find in the EULA, especially the "industry standard" restrictions.

      Yeah, IANAL.

  23. The ruling is based on California law, though :-( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    IANAL, but when I read the decision, they based large parts of the reasoning on California law (due to the license saying that it was governed by California law). So that may make it harder to apply in other states. I think they even mentioned some cases under another state (PA?) and said that that precedent didn't apply because of that clause putting it under CA law.

    I think this sets some precedent already, but also that it can end up in the Federal Court of Appeals, and eventually the Supreme Court if it gets to that. However, IANAL, so I'm not sure if this is even an appealable order (not every order is).

    One of the most interesting parts to me were the notion that this is a LOT less expensive than arbitration. Or, at least, the judge thought so. That seemed to be a major factor in the decision per my non-lawyer reading. Which is odd to me because I thought that companies liked binding arbitration because it was supposedly faster and cheaper. Or maybe they just don't end up paying out as much money, I dunno. I was kinda surprised that we have a federal case made out of $300 of virtual land, though. Couldn't that go to small claims? Or maybe their whole account was worth more, who knows?

    Now, unfortunately, I don't see this destroying EULAs so much as rewriting them, but I DID find it very interesting that, at least using the CA law they did, the contract might be unconscionable if you can't find anyone who doesn't give such harsh terms of service ("we can disconnect you if we feel like it", which is WAY too "standard" when you sign up for internet service). There was some other talk about that being except if there are "business realities" (which you either have to prove or describe in your contract), but I'd dearly LOVE to see the "CYA clause" as I call it stricken from ISP terms of service. Comcast with their "abuse of service" crap if you break their secret bandwidth limits on their "unlimited" service (by which they allegedly mean "always on", not "without limit").

    I wonder if anyone will retain a lawyer and become the test case for that one?

  24. The difference doesn't matter by rewt66 · · Score: 4, Informative

    IANAL.

    But the judge didn't rule it unenforceable because there was no law stating that clickwrap agreements were valid. He ruled that the terms were so one-sided that it was "unconscionable" (horribly one-sided), and therefore invalid. If the same terms were in a shrinkwrap license, or even a signed contract, the same terms would have had the same problem.

    The statement that it doesn't apply everywhere until upheld by the Supreme Court is, however, quite correct.

    1. Re:The difference doesn't matter by MilenCent · · Score: 1, Interesting

      IAalsoNAL....

      You are correct, really, but it's important to note why.

      The idea of a contract is that two parties enter into a mutually beneficial arrangement. A contract that gives one side of the deal nothing (or, apparently, almost nothing) is not a valid contract.

      Most "click-wrap" licenses, as we understand the term, would fail this test for the same reason Second Life's license failed it, as practically all of them are CYA deals that exist primarily to restrict users from doing unforeseen things that could work out bad for the company in the future. And it is true that this precedent is not binding outside this jurisdiction, BUT, other judges who are asked to determine the legality of a click-wrap license in the future could well become aware of it, and that should not be discounted.

    2. Re:The difference doesn't matter by MilenCent · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Hm...

      Reading over the article a bit more, okay, let me amend my statement....

      The fact that Second Life has a kind of monopoly in virtual land sale seems to enter into it. So this might not be a strike against click-wrap licenses in general. Hmm.

    3. Re:The difference doesn't matter by asuffield · · Score: 2, Informative

      He ruled that the terms were so one-sided that it was "unconscionable" (horribly one-sided), and therefore invalid. If the same terms were in a shrinkwrap license, or even a signed contract, the same terms would have had the same problem.


      Obligatory proviso: while this is basically true, a signed contract may be valid anyway - if it can be shown that the party who loses out to the contract was fully aware of this at the time when they signed it, that the terms of the contract were negotiated by both parties, and they were not under any form of duress, then any contract is valid no matter how unconscionable. Licenses or contracts are only rejected in this manner when one party failed to understand the implications of the contract (and "would not have signed it if they had known") or when the terms were dictated by one party alone ("contract of adhesion", which is normal for clickwrap and shrinkwrap, but unusual for a signed contract).

      There are some rules which apply to all contracts, but this isn't one of them. Be careful what you sign. For an important example, you can't often play this card for your job contract.
    4. Re:The difference doesn't matter by Thing+1 · · Score: 3, Funny

      IANAL.

      Please people, please: use IMNAL. We're not interested in your bedroom behavior.

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    5. Re:The difference doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please people, please: use IMNAL. We're not interested in your bedroom behavior.

      Speak for yourself! (Did I say that out loud?)

    6. Re:The difference doesn't matter by smoker2 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Please people, please: use IMNAL. We're not interested in your bedroom behavior.
      Actually, for most of the posts I see, IMANAL would be more accurate !
    7. Re:The difference doesn't matter by 56ker · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well not entirely a monopoly on virtual land sales, I think there's someone who sells people title deeds to bits of the moon.

  25. the company is better off by superwiz · · Score: 1

    By recognizing that the property value of items in second life have to be recognized on par with property values that are tangible, the courts will validate all the ownership rules. Ie, by making ownership of the property in Second Life no longer at the whim of a private organization but recognized by courts (and thus the government) the court actually did Second Life a favor.

    --
    Any guest worker system is indistinguishable from indentured servitude.
    1. Re:the company is better off by Wax_and_Wane · · Score: 1

      IF the courts were to recognize the value of virtual property as having the same rights as tangible property, it might help a tiny few people who would have been unfairly denied compensation from these virtual world software companies.

      *And it would open the door wide open for taxation of virtual property.*

      So if this court actually does get heard, the repercussions of it could be even greater than "clickwrap" reform.

  26. Re:The ruling is based on California law, though : by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The arbitration is cheaper for the company, but not always for the individual. In this specific case, I suspect that arbitration would mean this poor guy showing up in California in person. The cost of that might get higher than going to a local court, even with a lawyer.

  27. Not in SL by Moraelin · · Score: 1

    Not in Second Life. Second Life is _based_ on converting its game currency to and from RL dollars, so harm can actually be measured in RL money. The issue isn't whether the virtual items are real, but whether they're worth RL dollars. And Linden Labs say they are, and happily lets you exchange RL money to and from their virtual currency. They also actually sell stuff like plots of land for RL dollars.

    Note that I'm not arguing whether that equivalence to RL money is ridiculous or not. (Ok, so I do think it's ridiculous, but let's not go on that tangent.) I'm just saying that LL shouldn't get away with arguing two exact opposites. Either one or the other. You can't have _both_. If they say it _is_ worth RL dollars, then they should legally be held responsible when (going by that notion) they arbitrarily caused someone a loss.

    That's the important part: not whether it's really real or not, but whether or not Linden Labs itself says it's worth real money. They do, so they damn better act that way.

    I suspect that's one reason why most other games insist on forbidding any kind of sale, and insisting that all their virtual stuff is their property and you're only allowed to use it. Because when it gets officially convertible to real money, and _owned_ by you, then banning an account becomes directly equivalent monetary damages.

    Think about it. For example, new plots of virtual land get auctioned starting at 1000$. Plots of old land that in the meantime are in the middle of a popular place, can go for a helluva lot more. Don't laugh, they have at least one person whose virtual estate is officially worth millions of dollars. And Linden Labs isn't just turning a blind eye, it's actively encouraging that idea that it's worth RL money (because that's the only thing that can convince one to give Linden Labs their RL money for that.)

    So once they sided with that position, shouldn't they be held responsible to act accordingly?

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  28. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by mr_matticus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What world are you living in where a majority of jurisdictions have ruled shrinkwrap licenses "generally unenforceable"?! Name just one jurisdiction in the US to have done so.

  29. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by Breakfast+Pants · · Score: 1

    I think the burden is on you; name one place where you can enforce an agreement on someone that they aren't a party to (other than in purposely interfering in other people's contracts, e.g. google non-compete chinese guy case)?

    --

    --

    WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
  30. W00t by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pennsylvanian Amish Beat those California Surfers !

    Get'em!

  31. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Virginia and Maryland. Look up UCITA.

  32. Wrong wrong wrong by unassimilatible · · Score: 3, Informative
    The interesting thing about this is that is being adjudicated under *Federal* law, rather than state law, because it involves interstate commerce.


    No, federal district court jurisdiction is granted either via diversity jurisdiction (plaintiffs and defendants from different states in suits exceeding $75K) or federal question jurisdiction. In this case, since the court is obviously using state law, diversity is how they got into court (and of course the judge finding CA arbitration unenforceable). Pennsylvania plaintiff, California defendant, = federal court diversity jurisdiction using state substantive law (but federal civil procedure and evidence).

    The next thing that they should go after is the concept that you don't actually *own* software that you purchase, you only "license" it. That could certainly be seen as a "contract of adhesion" ('procedurally unconscionable') imposed in a one-sided way and thus unlawful as well.



    Also wrong! Read the case or the article, for a contract to be unenforceable, it must be both procedurally and substantively unconscionable. Contracts of adhesion are enforceable if they do not contain grossly unfair terms. And software licenses are generally considered enforceable (assuming no grossly unfair terms - read the article or case!).

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    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  33. Yes, but by unassimilatible · · Score: 2, Informative

    unilateral "cancel at any time" clauses can be illusory (a promise that isn't real, therefore non-binding, therefore no contract). What is generally required is a minimum time before they can cancel (e.g., "after 30 days") or notice requirement (e.g., "on 5 days notice"). A contract which allowed you to cancel or alter it 5 minutes after it was signed (or clicked) would not be a contract; it would be illusory.

    --
    Slashdot "libertarians": Small government for me, big government for those I disagree with. -1, I disagree with you
  34. Easy solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Make people sign agreements and send them in before you activate their accounts.

    There - signed, on paper, contract. Then states like PA can shove it up their ass :)

  35. Re: Deactivation on return has happened to me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I bought an Internet communication product. After activation, I found it had limitations I couldn't live with. I got my money back and later the program wouldn't work. It seems the software calls home each time it runs to see if it has an authorized user. While it seems fair, if their auth server went down or they went out of business, the sofware would no longer work. That would be a problem.

  36. Wha? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't get it, what does this actually mean for the people who play Second Life?

  37. Re:this seemed to be the important one for most ga by mr_matticus · · Score: 1

    The burden of proof always lies with affirmative, never the status quo. A EULA is a rights grant from the owner to a party, just as assignment in real property. The rightsholder (owner) is free to impose whatever legal terms s/he desires in the licensing of their goods. See franchise licensing, real estate leasing, trademark and patent licensing, and any other relevant field where use is transferred but only partial (if any) ownership.

    As for "being a party to" EULAs, it's a standard form contract and a legally valid term in all fifty states (all 49 except Lousiana as a result of the UCC, Virginia and Maryland doubly so on account of UCITA, Louisiana cf. Lousiana License Act [see Vault v. Quaid, among others]).

  38. You need both, but you already have one... by nickovs · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, you need both Procedural and Substantive Unconscionability, but the implication of the statements in the judgement is that (based on prior case law) you already have one of the two in a click-through EULA. In III.C.1.(a) on page 27 it states (citations removed):

    "A contract or clause is procedurally unconscionable if it is a contract of adhesion. A contract of adhesion, in turn, is a "standardized contract, which, imposed and drafted by the party of superior bargaining strength, relegates to the subscribing party only the opportunity to adhere to the contract or reject it." Under California law, "the critical factor in procedural unconscionability analysis is the manner in which the contract or the disputed clause was presented and negotiated." "When the weaker party is presented the clause and told to 'take it or leave it' without the opportunity for meaningful negotiation, oppression, and therefore procedural unconscionability, are present."

    This implies that Procedural Unconscionability is present in any and all click-through licenses, since they are drawn up by the party with the stronger position and presented in a "take it or leave it" manner. Given that a click-through license is implicitly Procedural Unconscionable any term that is Substantive Unconscionability is unenforceable.

    --
    If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
  39. Virtual 'Property' versus Intellectual Property by tjjfv · · Score: 1

    One aspect of the virtual property rights issue is often confused in these discussions (and seems to be confused in the court ruling):

    Ownership of the intellectual property related to content developed in a virtual environment is not the same as ownership of the virtual items.

    Linden's TOS recognizes creators rights to the content created within SecondLife http://secondlife.com/whatis/ip_rights.php but that does not extend to ownership of the virtual items:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic le/2006/12/25/AR2006122500635_2.html

    In Second Life, Linden Lab executives wanted to avoid this confusion, believing that users needed clear ownership for economic activity to thrive, recounted Cory Ondrejka, chief technical officer. Otherwise, users would have little incentive to invest. But he stressed that this ownership did not extend to full property rights -- creators have intellectual property rights to the software patterns used in making virtual objects but no rights to the objects themselves. Under this formulation, Brown owns her designs but not the individual dresses and pieces of underwear. Nor do her customers "own" the apparel they purchase and hang in their virtual closets. Virtual environments that encourage investment and allow currency exchange should ensure that users have rights to protect their investments, which may need to include degrees of ownership of the virtual items. Recognition of intellectual property rights is a start, but should not be viewed as anything close to granting ownership of virtual items.
    --
    tjjfv
    http://tjjfv.com
  40. Arbitration by Stormcrow309 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Several state judicial systems have already found that out-of-state arbitration limits due process. Alltel got hit hard for this and their 'consumer pays all arbitration fees' clause a couple of years back. I don't think arbitration will last much longer, especially since many businesses are moving to mediation for b2b stuff.

    --

    In God we trust, all others require data.

  41. Re: Deactivation on return has happened to me by DaHat · · Score: 1

    One would certainly hope that the software wouldn't immediately panic if it couldn't call home and that there would either be a last update as they went out of business or a mode that could be activated through the auth server... kinda like what was intended when DIVX folded... of course we know how well that turned out.

  42. Not quite Paris by DingerX · · Score: 1

    Paris Hilton's "agreement" was part of criminal court proceedings. And if the heiress could not afford a lawyer to explain the terms to her, the court would appoint one for her.

    That's the whole reason why there exists a "right to an attorney" in criminal cases: a defendant cannot be expected to know all the niceties of the legal system the State imposes, enforces and adjudges. Those with a chance of competing in that system are mostly professionals, a.k.a. lawyers. Therefore, the defendant must have access to someone whose job it is to attorn for them and provide them with a decent defense.

    Now let's go to contracts. There's a whole bunch of civil code out there regulating contracts, property and the like. For the consumer, these are the laws that govern the thousands of transactions in daily life. For a business, there's a subset of laws that govern the transactions that constitute the business' function. To use an analogy, a single person eats say, one hamburger a week; a fast-food chain may make millions of hamburgers. The fast food chain, having any business sense, can invest far more in the makeup of the hamburger than the consumer. Heck, it's even possible that the consumer choose the hamburger that's not -- to her or his personal taste -- the "best-tasting", or "healthiest", or whatever.

    So switching to law. There exists therefore the expectation that, in these daily transactions, the business is more versed in the legal circumstances than the consumer. And in law, the duty of a representative of a business to know the law governing that business is greater than the duty of a consumer to know the law governing every single transaction.

    Now, EULAs, fancy "take it or leave it" contracts, and the rest, may contain attempts by a business to make sure they get the best end of a dispute. In this case, the court finding (in my understanding), was that:
    A. The EULA was not negotiable; it was a "take it or leave it" deal.
    B. Linden Labs has distinguished themselves from others in the market by claiming they treated user's "virtual property" as "real," and the CEO has gone around making exactly that claim.
    C. In the event of a dispute, the EULA/TOS gave LL a whole range of options, starting with "self-help", i.e., determining the case by themselves, and resolving it. On the other hand, the consumer was forced to an arbitration process.
    D. The clause compelling arbitration in San Francisco was buried in the EULA/TOS document under "General Provisions" (or something like that).
    E. Arbitration would cost the plaintiff considerably more than a lawsuit.
    F. The details of the arbitration would be confidential, so that, in future arbitration disputes between Linden Labs and the Consumer, only Linden Labs would have access to that information.
    G. No further information on arbitration procedures was provided in the TOS or on teh website.

    So no, it's not Paris Hilton at all. The ruling is: If a company supplies a EULA, those terms must at least pretend to be fair to the consumer.

  43. ...Are you sure? by Linkiroth · · Score: 1

    'Cause I just read Microsoft's EULA last night... and at the end it said something about daily blowjobs to Bill gates...

    Hrm...

  44. I wonder.... by ducomputergeek · · Score: 1
    Back around 1999 - 2001 I ran a server with the opensource Promisance browser based MMOG. I rememer as part of my policy I had the "could terminate account for any reason" clause so I could deal with any problem players as judge jury and IP (as in TCP/IP tables not intellectual property) executioner.

    Granted, my game was free and as such, I wonder if would have been subject to the same rules.

    --
    "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  45. Signed contracts of adhesion by tepples · · Score: 1

    Licenses or contracts are only rejected in this manner when one party failed to understand the implications of the contract (and "would not have signed it if they had known") or when the terms were dictated by one party alone ("contract of adhesion", which is normal for clickwrap and shrinkwrap, but unusual for a signed contract). Contracts for residential Internet service and mobile phone service are signed, yet they're still contracts of adhesion.
    1. Re:Signed contracts of adhesion by asuffield · · Score: 1

      Contracts for residential Internet service and mobile phone service are signed, yet they're still contracts of adhesion.


      Yours are signed? Mine aren't, I just give them a credit card number and they give me an account. Regardless, it can happen, it's just unusual (largely because contracts of adhesion don't really need a signature so much - with a classical contract, the signature is to show that this particular document is the version accepted by the parties, but by definition there is only one version of a contract of adhesion).
  46. I've heard worse by abb3w · · Score: 1

    There is no *real* harm done to anyone if their account is terminated.

    Just like there is no "real" harm done if J. Random Blackhat changes the computer records of your bank account to indicate you spent the past month withdrawing it all as cash overseas? After all, it's only numbers in a computer; the fact that they're directly equivalent to and exchangeable with "real" money is irrelevant.

    To misquote Philip K. Dick, "Reality is that which, just because you don't believe in it, doesn't go away."

    What if a player/group of players find a bug in the game and are able to use it to cheat?

    Then suspend the accounts of players who use the bug, instead of terminating them; restore the access after you patch the damn bug. As compensation, be sure to credit the account for the time lost due to suspension; possibly credit a extra percentage to reduce arguments. If you want incentive, give your coders a quarterly bonus equal 20% of their base salary... but with the bonus pool being reduced by the value of that extra percentage that has to be given out due to bugs. (That would certainly get ME paying more attention to my code.)

    Or worse, use it to gain access to the personal computers of OTHER players without their permission?

    That can probably be prosecuted under several federal laws. Get the FBI involved, suspend as above when ready to make an arrest. Include in the TOS clauses stating that conviction (or guilty or nolo contendere pleas) of a federal criminal offense using their servers will result in account termination and ban — all digital assets forfeit for liquidation to cover damages, internal investigation costs, with any residual to be paid to the US treasury. If the corporate lawyers feel cautious, the proceeds of liquidation might be escrowed while any appeals get filed.

    Approaches with more subtlety, finesse, and equity are more likely to gain public approbation and to stand up in court... and to avoid going there in the first place.

    --
    //Information does not want to be free; it wants to breed.
  47. You're already liable for virtual income. by argent · · Score: 1

    If you're running an online business in SL, you're already liable for income from it. This isn't new.

  48. EULA/TOS by Porticon · · Score: 1

    The problem with the ToS/EULA of many MMOs and online services is that the unfair balance of power being in the developer's hands is a violation of a consumer's rights. When you subscribe to an online service you are paying the developer for the right to use the service for the period of time agreed upon. The problem that arises with the developer's holding the power to terminate your service at any time is that with online games in particular, you are investing time and energy to obtain digital goods. Whether it be characters and equipment in a RPG or digital real estate in something like Second Life, you are paying for the right to obtain these goods. This makes those goods your property. Now the developer has every right to control your access to this property as agreed upon when you pay your subscritpion, they do not however have the right to terminate your access without due cause. It is my belief that with the size of the market in the MMO industry, there should be more government regulation as to the rights of the consumer. When you begin to assess the amount of time and energy invested by many MMO gamers you will quickly realize that there is more at stake than just a monthly subscription fee. These customers have invested many hours to obtain what they have, whether it be progression of the character or goods that the character posses, or perhaps less material, the experiences and relationships that are gained from this type of game. These by-products of the services rendered should be acknowledged and supported by the gaming industry as well as consumer advocacy groups and goverment regulations. I believe the key to fair play in this issue is that the developers should be required to maintain and continuosly update a grocery list of behaviors that would constitute a violation of your agreement with them in regards to the product rendered. Cheating/exploitation etc should be well defined and there should be a system in place to properly process violations of this. My personal opinion is a publicly posted list of behaviors constituting revokation of your access and a three strike policy. Players of these games should be required to read and agree to a Terms of Service that clearly details exactly what is considered a violation of the agreement. If they fail to comply with this policy they should initially be issued a warning, stating that such behavior/activity is prohibited and that further violation will result in termination of service. This will give accidental violations more leeway while punishing those that truely seek to violate the terms. I'm reminded of two situations from my own past, both examples derived from the MMORPG Everquest, considered largely to be the first large scale successful MMO game. The first issue arose early on in the game's existence when a player had written fan fiction that involved aspects of the shared world provided by the content of the game, in this fan fiction some largely abbherant behaviors were discussed such as Bondage/BDSM type sexual acts. When this was brought to the attention of Sony Online Entertainment, which as the time may very well have been micro managed by the original developer Verant, they quickly examined the incident which occured off of the company's resource/properties and terminated the user's account. This caused a public uproar among some members of this customers immiediete community of fellow users. It is my opinion that in this issue, the developer was in the wrong, as the incedent occured outside of the company's servers and therefore was not eligible for their judgement. What right they did have however was to address any potential copyright infrigement of their intellectual properties. This should not have resulted in a termination of service, but should have been handled as any other copyright infringement incedent would, with a cease and decist order. Another incedent that comes to mind was in regards to how large scale encounters in the game were handled, as these events were meant to be strategy based gameplay there were occasionally questio

  49. Not the only one but by tjstork · · Score: 1

    Guns DO work pretty good. So do small explosives. Of all ironies, Iraq proves the right wing view of the 2nd amendment. Get enough people on the ground with guns and explosives, and any government that does not have popular consent does not govern.

    --
    This is my sig.