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X Prize Foundation Announces Lunar Lander Competitors

Raver32 writes to tell us the X Prize Foundation has announced eight of the nine groups planning to compete in this year's Northrop Grumman Lunar Lander Challenge. "The ninth team requested to remain confidential, lending an air of controversy to the announcement. Space bloggers have surmised the ninth team is Amazon.com founder Jeff Bezos' Blue Origin, but sources told SPACE.com that information was wrong. Their confidentiality period ends 60 days before the start of the competition at which time the X Prize Foundation will announce the team's name."

97 comments

  1. Been Done by Divebus · · Score: 3, Funny

    Pow - Zoom - Right to the moon, Alice!

    --

    Most of the stuff on /. won't survive first contact with facts.
  2. The secret contenders are ILM by Timesprout · · Score: 3, Funny

    And my money is on them to win by not just landing on the moon but converting it into an orbiting battle station and calling it a death moon or something like that.

    --
    Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
    What truth?
    There is no dupe
    1. Re:The secret contenders are ILM by evil+agent · · Score: 1

      Man, I hope it's not ILM. Then the fake moon landing conspiracy theorists will really have some ammunition!

      --
      End transmission.
    2. Re:The secret contenders are ILM by taniwha · · Score: 1

      don't be silly - ILM will be doing the FAKE moon landing challenge

    3. Re:The secret contenders are ILM by saskboy · · Score: 1

      Golden Palace .com must be the confidential one. Why gamble about going to the moon, when you can gamble ON the moon?

      Although, since they sponsored the failed Da Vinci Project that was supposed to launch from Kindersley, SK, I don't have much faith in their ability to pick a winner.

      --
      Saskboy's blog is good. 9 out of 10 dentists agree.
    4. Re:The secret contenders are ILM by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then they'll be disappointed to hear that NASA has them beat by almost 40 years!

    5. Re:The secret contenders are ILM by socz · · Score: 1

      "Old tricks are the best tricks A?"

      and LOL at "Golden Palace .com must be the confidential one. " For some reason it's not hard to imagine "Hollywood" sign style letters visible from earth with the naked eye on the moon.

      "Golden Palace.com" hmmm

      --
      My abilities are only limited by my imagination
    6. Re:The secret contenders are ILM by BugZRevengE · · Score: 1

      The Institute of Leadership & Management
      Oh they might like a death moon or something, but could they organise one?

      --
      Why me? Why not!
      BACKUP YOUR PARTITIONS
  3. unrealistic by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

    those guys building one in their garage for under two hundred grand have set a tough task for themselves. the other night on american inventor they had a guy who has put more than that into developing a toy centered around drag racing match box cars.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:unrealistic by Timesprout · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well one of the major reasons Burt Rattan won the previous challenge was because Paul Allen bankrolled the whole thing to the point where the prize fund became irrelevant. Whether this was out out curiosity to see it does or as potential investment or both I dont know.

      --
      Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
      What truth?
      There is no dupe
    2. Re:unrealistic by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Winning the prize is not meant to fund ALL of it. It does get multiple companies shooting for it, all with differing designs.

      Allen bankrolled it, because he is a futurists. He is the ONE person behind getting the internet on cable. He started in 1991, LONG before TCI was interested. Now, he is quietly going after the next level.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  4. Fine by zdude255 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Fine, I'll make my own Lunar Lander, with Blackjack and hookers!

    1. Re:Fine by jizziknight · · Score: 3, Funny

      Forget the Lunar Lander and the Blackjack!

      --
      Everything I say is a lie. Except that... and that... and that, and that, and that, and that... and that.
    2. Re:Fine by japhar81 · · Score: 1

      On second thought... Forget the blackjack!

    3. Re:Fine by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      screw the whole thing.

      -
      We're whalers on the moon,
      We carry a harpoon,
      But there ain't no whales,
      So we tell our tall tale,
      And sing our whaling tune

    4. Re:Fine by WilliamSChips · · Score: 1

      And the hookers.

      --
      Please, for the good of Humanity, vote Obama.
  5. Ninth Team by moehoward · · Score: 0

    The mystery ninth team is a group of Mexicans and their landing craft involves a famous Killer Whale. http://www.buddytv.com/articles/south-park/top-10- best-tv-moments-of-2006-2718.aspx

    --
    "If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
  6. Building a product can be very expensive by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Just because it takes $200k to make a toy can does not mean it will take $200M to build a bigger thing to go to the moon.

    Making a product (toy car) is very expensive. Moulds for plastic injection moulding can cost $50k+ each. Processes for making 1 off parts cost a lot less.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
    1. Re:Building a product can be very expensive by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

      exactly. i didn't say anything about $200M and basically everything else you've said backs up my point. building stuff is expensive - so i'd be interested to see how they can build a rocket that can meet the demands of this competition on that budget.

      --
      It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    2. Re:Building a product can be very expensive by jdray · · Score: 1

      They don't have to go all the way from here to the moon, just hop from one place to another successfully.

      --
      The Spoon
      Updated 6/28/2011
  7. What is our limitation? by xzvf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Imagine what it would be like today if we kept going to the moon through the last four decades. The costs are minor compared to the social programs and the military budget. Why can't some senator earmark a space program, like they do for bridges and museums? It holds about the same priority in the budget.

    1. Re:What is our limitation? by Arterion · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What's on the moon that's so great? All the other things you mentioned are useful to society. How does society benefit from trips to the moon?

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    2. Re:What is our limitation? by ShorePiper82 · · Score: 1

      this is where we got quite a bit of our everyday tech from. items like cordless tools, heart rate monitors, durable glass... even things like (some specialty) tape and adhesives.

    3. Re:What is our limitation? by TroyM · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, I think they're made in China

    4. Re:What is our limitation? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      Asteroids. Lots of them. Read Dennis Wingo's Moonrush.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
  8. the anonymous team is... by tverbeek · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...the animated corpse of Howard Hughes. He's building the lander out of wood.

    --
    http://alternatives.rzero.com/
    1. Re:the anonymous team is... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      The amazing part is that it will work!

    2. Re:the anonymous team is... by moosesocks · · Score: 1

      The amazing part is that it will work!

      Once.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
  9. My money is on Billy Mitchell by El_Smack · · Score: 3, Funny

    Billy Mitchell is pretty good at lots of games, so I'm guessing he could practice up and be a contender on Lunar Lander.
    Scott Safran will undoubtedly win the next contest, which I assume to be Asteroids, since it was released next.
    After that, BattleZone, Missile Command, Centipede, Tempest, etc.
    I think it's pretty cool that these X-Prize guys have taken an interest in classic Atari Coin Op.

    --


    There are 01 kinds of cars in the world. The General Lee, and everything else.
  10. Lunar Lander? Excellent! by Applekid · · Score: 4, Funny

    I logged many many hours simulating a Lunar Lander. Hopefully they kept the controls the same.

    --
    More Twoson than Cupertino
  11. Not on the Moon.... by frakir · · Score: 5, Informative

    Competition summary:

    The Competition is divided into two levels. Level 1 requires a rocket to take off from a designated launch area, rocket up to 150 feet (50 meters) altitude, then hover for 90 seconds while landing precisely on a landing pad 100 meters away. The flight must then be repeated in reverse--and both flights, along with all of the necessary preparation for each, must take place within a two and a half hour period.

    The more difficult course, Level 2, requires the rocket to hover for twice as long before landing precisely on a simulated lunar surface, packed with craters and boulders to mimic actual lunar terrain. The hover times are calculated so that the Level 2 mission closely simulates the power needed to perform the real lunar mission.

    1. Re:Not on the Moon.... by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 0, Redundant

      WHat's silly about this kind of "competition" is that you and I and everyone out there can offer a 100 million bucks to someone who can put a lander on the moon. Why? It's not going to happen. This sort of thing does not come out of garages or even small warehouses.

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
    2. Re:Not on the Moon.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      WHat's silly about this kind of "post" is that you and I and every slashdotter out there can put forth our pearls of 'wisdom' without reading the article.

    3. Re:Not on the Moon.... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      IANA Rocket Scientist, but don't you need a *lot* more thrust to hover in earth gravity than lunar gravity? It seems like the lander would have to be significantly over engineered to complete Level 2. For example, the lander legs have to be stronger (and heavier) to support the weight of the vehicle on earth.

      Also, this test seems like it would eliminate any possible alternative to standard rocketry. Much the way a solar sail is useful in space, some alternative lower output thrust technology may be practical on the moon, but not on earth. It seems pretty obvious that when you're "testing" against a set of standards that are different than the operating environment, you're limiting yourself and/or overlooking important details.

      As far as I can tell, NASA never flight tested the lunar lander, although it tried. All testing (and practice flights) were done on a gantry, yet it worked spectacularly on the moon.

    4. Re:Not on the Moon.... by StikyPad · · Score: 1

      Oops, I should mention two things about the link I provided. 1) I didn't read beyond the first caption before posting. 2) Nonetheless, the last paragraph emphasizes that it was a pilot training device, not a prototype for the lunar lander.

    5. Re:Not on the Moon.... by BiggerBoat · · Score: 1

      IANA Rocket Scientist, but don't you need a *lot* more thrust to hover in earth gravity than lunar gravity?
      Yes you do, but the Lunar Lander Challenge is not meant to demonstrate a vehicle capable of flying the same profile on the moon as it does in this competition. It's meant to demonstrate the performance necessary to fly between the lunar surface and lunar orbit -- basically, if you can hover in Earth's gravity for 180 seconds (the requirement for each leg in the Level 2 challenge), then you've demonstrated the performance that would be necessary to take off from the lunar surface and get to lunar orbit, or vice-versa.

      As for certain things needing to be stouter than they'd have to on the moon, such as landing legs, yes, that's true. But this competition isn't about coming up with an actual lunar lander prototype, it's about spurring innovation among private companies who will hopefully be able to develop technologies that might be useful for future missions to the moon (or just to space in general), for vastly less cost that it takes NASA to do it.
    6. Re:Not on the Moon.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IANA Rocket Scientist, but don't you need a *lot* more thrust to hover in earth gravity than lunar gravity? It seems like the lander would have to be significantly over engineered to complete Level 2. For example, the lander legs have to be stronger (and heavier) to support the weight of the vehicle on earth.

      Hovering above the surface of the Earth means that you must fight gravity, which is accelerating you downwards at about 9.8 m/s^2. This means that every second you spend hovering, you need to use 9.8 m/s of delta-v. The Level 1 requirement of 90 seconds (of hover time) corresponds to a delta-v of 0.88 km/s, and the Level 2 requirement of 180 seconds corresponds to a delta-v of 1.76 km/s.

      For comparison, escape velocity on the Moon is 2.38 km/s. This means that a rocket needs to be able to use at least 2.38 km/s of delta-v in order to be able to lift off from (or land on) the Moon. Thus completing Level 2 would constitute a comparable challenge. The lower delta-v requirement of 1.76 km/s is probably due to inefficiencies in atmospheric rocket flight - rockets tend to perform worst in an atmosphere (a disadvantage not present on the Moon).
    7. Re:Not on the Moon.... by terrymr · · Score: 1

      Using thrust to propel something upwards doesn't really compare to the flight you need to achieve orbit. The reason rockets are launched vertically on earth is to get through the atmosphere (or at least the thicker parts of it) before accelerating in the desired direction of orbit.

    8. Re:Not on the Moon.... by terrymr · · Score: 1

      And I replied to the wrong message.

  12. Disney is the Mystery Team by Jason+Levine · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's obvious. The mystery team is Disney. They plan on opening a theme park on the moon. They already have their top fungineers working on the design.

    --
    My sci-fi novel, Ghost Thief, is now available from Amazon.com.
    1. Re:Disney is the Mystery Team by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Fungineers? Wasn't that one of the units in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri?

    2. Re:Disney is the Mystery Team by kaizokuace · · Score: 1

      I thought they were called "Imagineers". There is no fun at Disney!

      --
      Balderdash!
    3. Re:Disney is the Mystery Team by fred+fleenblat · · Score: 1

      Whalers on the moon?

    4. Re:Disney is the Mystery Team by Cappy+Red · · Score: 1

      Whalers on the moon?

      They carry a harpoon.

      --
      This is my sig. It's prescription, I swear. I need it for reading things... on the other side of things
  13. Already been done... by Froze · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just not officially, from their latest news;
    "Full LLC1 flight
    One June 2, we conducted a complete LLC 1 operational profile at the Oklahoma Spaceport. Everything went great. Representatives from AST and the X-Prize Cup were present. This was the first flight under experimental permit rules from a licensed spaceport. Both legs of the flight landed within a meter of the pad center, and our operation time was only an hour and a half."

    Read the whole description here. It is full of all manner of technical goodies. In fact I can't wait for their next monthly update.

    --
    -- The morphemes of your disquisition are ascertainable, but they have eschewed an ambit of transpicuous exposition.
  14. seriously by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not Blue Origin. They're known to be using hydrogen peroxide as the fuel for their 'mystery project', which isn't going to get anyone to the moon, considering rockets based on H2O2 are barely enough to get you into a suborbital flight.

    I'll bet it's Burt Rattan and Scaled Composites, but this time instead of being backed by Paul Allen, they'll be backed by Richard Branson and his Virgin Galactic outfit. They may even be using the Virgin Galactic as the team name. It's just Branson's style to pull something like this.

    My other guess, if that doesn't pan out, is Elon Musk and his team at SpaceX. SpaceX may have only barely got a prototype rocket into space, but they have a lot of very smart people on that team. Somehow I doubt it's them, because I don't think hiding the team's name is Musk's style.

    1. Re:seriously by garoo · · Score: 1

      Would that be Burt Rutan, or a range of cheerful woven-palm furniture particularly popular for the modern conservatory?

      And then I looked up this mistake on Google and found out just how common it is.

      Oh well. Can't do anything these days without composite materials...

    2. Re:seriously by RedWizzard · · Score: 1

      It's not Blue Origin. They're known to be using hydrogen peroxide as the fuel for their 'mystery project', which isn't going to get anyone to the moon, considering rockets based on H2O2 are barely enough to get you into a suborbital flight. You do know that the lunar lander challenge has nothing to do with going to the moon, right?

      I'll bet it's Burt Rattan and Scaled Composites, but this time instead of being backed by Paul Allen, they'll be backed by Richard Branson and his Virgin Galactic outfit. I can't see what Scaled Composites have to gain from it. The challenge is to lift off, move horizontally some distance and then land on a small concrete pad. Then repeat within a certain time limit. Scaled Composites have been focusing on a complete different approach - plane based launch systems. And of course they are now concentrating on getting a commercial operation up and running. Why would they distract themselves from that to spend time and effort on a challenge worth a couple of hundred grand using technology that won't be useful to their commercial operation?
    3. Re:seriously by BiggerBoat · · Score: 1

      ...which isn't going to get anyone to the moon, considering rockets based on H2O2 are barely enough to get you into a suborbital flight.


      H202 based rockets are actually capable of making all the way to orbit if you're using it in combination with a fuel, like kerosene. Witness the British Black Arrow. It may not be the best way to do it, but it's got the capability.

      But anyway, this competition isn't about getting something from Earth to the moon, it's about demonstrating the performance to fly between the moon's surface and its orbit.
    4. Re:seriously by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 1

      You do know that the lunar lander challenge has nothing to do with going to the moon, right?


      I guess I didn't remember that until you pointed it out, no.

      I can't see what Scaled Composites have to gain from it.


      No, but I can see what Burt Rutan and Richard Branson personally have to gain from it. These guys are high-achievers. They want to be on top, and they will stop at nothing to be on top.
  15. The secret contender by bflong · · Score: 3, Funny

    The ninth team requested to remain confidential..... Their confidentiality period ends 60 days before the start of the competition at which time the X Prize Foundation will announce the team's name.

    And the winner is.......... _Drumroll_..... NASA!

    --
    Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
    1. Re:The secret contender by UbuntuDupe · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to think ... which response would be wittier:

      1) Yeah, but they missed the application deadline.

      2) Let's see, invest $100 billion, get $2 million in 40 years. BRILLIANT!

      3) They would apply, but "The probability of success is 100% minus epsilon" doesn't mean what you and I think it does.

  16. Rehash... by MS-06FZ · · Score: 1

    "One of these days, Laura... I'm gonna punch you in the face!" (ha ha ha!)

    --
    ---GEC
    I'm but the humble pupil, seeking to snatch the scratchbuilt pebble from the master's fully articulated hand
  17. Been there, done that by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 1


    Lunar lander

    Where's my prize?

    --

    Operator, give me the number for 911!
  18. Perhaps my underwhelm-ment is undeserved by Control+Group · · Score: 1

    OK, this is neat, and a Lunar lander is something we definitely need if we're to go back to the moon. Granted.

    But personally, I would be far more excited by advancements in getting things cheaply into orbit. Followed by getting things cheaply out to Lunar orbit. Then followed by getting things down to the lunar surface and back up into Lunar orbit.

    So far, we've had success with the X Prize for getting something up into space. Which is a major accomplishment, to be sure, but it's about 7kps in angular velocity away from just being in Terran orbit, and even further away from being in Lunar orbit.

    Figuring out both ends is cool, but the middle bit is sort of important, too.

    --

    Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
    1. Re:Perhaps my underwhelm-ment is undeserved by Teancum · · Score: 1

      The point that should be made here, however, is that there are plenty of people (both detractors as well as supporters) who are working on this problem. And there are contracts that have been signed by SpaceX and Kistler to supply the ISS at supposedly cheap rates to demonstrate such capabilities.

      The problem that NASA is facing is that there has only been two vehicles that have ever been designed by realistic aeronautical design teams to be able to deal with the environment on the Moon. And both were designed in the 1960's by engineers who are retired, dead, or nearing retirement. One was Russian.

      By holding this competition, NASA now has a group of at least nine independent development teams who have seriously considered this problem and have come up with realistic solutions on how to deal with the environment on the Moon and how to fly above its surface. And most of the engineers involved with this effort are quite young and will be retaining these skills for another 20-30 years into the future. Even if contracts go off to Lock-Mart for construction, this is a core of developers that can be used to help build these vehicles in the future if congress ever decides that going back to the Moon is something worth consideration on a national scale. Just from a talent development standpoint, I think this is an outstanding concept and one of the best spent tax dollars by NASA in nearly 30 years.

      From the standpoint of one of the developers, it is a huge resume builder that would stand out on any future job application. Particularly if any sort of significant commercial activity does happen in LEO and people try to move out of that comfort zone. Even if all you do is try to help design the successor to the 747 for Boeing, it would still be something that could get your foot in the door. Or be able to land a job with SpaceX.

      For the rest of us who are spectators.... it also gives us a chance to see some real working spacecraft up close and do something more than rush off to the sky until you can no longer see them. I wish I had the money to be able to go see the competition this year just for the coolness factor alone.

  19. Are moonshots easier with ISS in orbit? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't have the tools to calculate this, but if you can get a lunar lander/command module unit up to the space station (I'd guess it would fit in the shuttle's payload bay), wouldn't a moon landing be a relatively easy next step? I just watched the Pluto mission special on the Science Channel and it made moon orbit in friggin 9 hours! Of course, it's smaller.

    --
    I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    1. Re:Are moonshots easier with ISS in orbit? by Manhigh · · Score: 4, Informative

      The ISS is inclined at 51.6 degrees relative to the equator (this was the lowest inclinations the Russians can get to from Balkanor without a costly plane-change maneuver)

      For us, going to ISS is somewhat less efficient because we have to launch on a northerly azimuth out of the Cape instead of due east, which would maximize the 'boost' from the earth's rotation.

      In short, the ISS is a research lab, not really a truck stop. Going there wastes propellant.

      And while the CM and lander might be able to be designed to fit in the shuttle bay, the earth departure stage to push them to the moon is very large. Getting to lunar orbit in 9 hours is impressive for such a small vehicle, but it didn't have to enter lunar orbit, it just flew by. Slowing down to enter orbit takes a lot of propellant if you want to get there fast (have a high relative velocity)

      --
      "Open the pod by doors, Hal" > "I'm afraid I can't do that, Dave" sudo "Open the pod bay doors, Hal" > alright
    2. Re:Are moonshots easier with ISS in orbit? by Anonymous+Freak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As another poster mentioned, yes, it is possible to use the ISS as a 'launching post', but horribly inefficient. The Pluto mission didn't '[make] moon orbit', it made it to lunar SPACE. It was going WAY too fast to actually have a chance of decelerating and actually entering lunar orbit. It also made it to Jupiter significantly faster than dedicated Jupiter probe Galileo, because Galileo had to be going slow enough to enter Jupiter orbit.

      And, yes, a lunar landing mission spacecraft would fit in the Shuttle's cargo bay, but that would be a ridiculously expensive way of carrying it to orbit. Better to use a single smaller rocket to get it there, that way you don't have to carry the entire weight of the Shuttle, too.

      The only way an Earth-orbit space station would be a decent 'launching post' for a lunar mission would be if they were to find a cheap way to launch fuel into Earth orbit (cheaper per pound than launching the actual spacecraft,) and make the space station a refueling post. You'd launch the lunar lander into Earth orbit with just enough fuel to make it to the space station, then refuel in Earth orbit. Otherwise, you might as well just launch completely ready to go to the moon.

      A *MARS* mission, on the other hand, makes a little more sense, because for such a long voyage, you would want a spacecraft that is really too large to launch straight to Mars as one piece. So you launch the individual pieces into Earth orbit, join them in Earth orbit, then leave for Mars. In that case, ISS makes a perfectly logical assembly point. (I am also a fan of the two-stage Mars launch, where you launch the return vehicle to Mars, along with fuel and supplies, unmanned. Then, once those are safely on Mars, you launch a smaller 'outbound-only' ship. This way, you don't have to launch one single large ship.

      --
      Another non-functioning site was "uncertainty.microsoft.com."
      The purpose of that site was not known.
    3. Re:Are moonshots easier with ISS in orbit? by Teancum · · Score: 1

      One of Werner Von Braun's original concept of going to the Moon was to establish a space station with a "drydock" facility that would be able to assemble lunar craft in orbit. In many ways I regret that he didn't go this route as it would have put a usable infrastructure into orbit for a sustained presence on the Moon and would have ensured that manned spaceflight would have continued throughout the 1970's in a substantial fashion. BTW, Skylab was a part of that planning, but it turned into something more along the lines of an afterthought to use up the rest of the Apollo hardware when NASA knew they couldn't get another Moon mission approved.

      The problem with the ISS is that it simply isn't equipped to deal with this sort of activity.... which would have to be designed into the physical structure of that facility. Assembling parts in orbit is hard enough, and to do that while wearing gloves makes it all that much tougher. Plus it is expensive to put an astronaut into orbit, so their time is so valuable that it is usually much cheaper to hire a dozen technicians at $200,000/yr each than having 1 good person in orbit doing the same job.

      On the other hand, using something like a Bigelow space station as a transfer point for fuel and supplies to an already existing Lunar shuttle system that made regular trips from LEO to lunar orbit might be something a bit more reasonable. You can design a spacecraft that would not have to deal with re-entry and launch issues and instead concentrate on things like the Van Allen belt radiation protection and efficiently using fuel in space. The Apollo Lunar Lander is an example of how different the spacecraft would look compared to the sleek aerodynamic spacecraft used for sub-orbital and LEO launches. Fuel could be sent to such a space station on unmanned rockets.

      The case for doing this with a Mars mission makes even more sense to me, I would have to agree. The idea that you could build one huge mega rocket (aka Apollo style) that would hold the necessary 7-14 astronauts, all of their food supplies for 2 years, clothing, toiletries, communications gear, and more in one vehicle and try to launch that from sea level in Florida at once boggles the mind that you would even want to try such a monster project. And one of the reasons why it hasn't been done yet. I wouldn't even want to be an astronaut traveling in such a vehicle.

      If instead you built a spacecraft that used more of a naval testing regimen to go to Mars that was built in orbit and designed for orbital refueling, and has been "tested" by flying it to the Moon and back a couple of times first before going to Mars, that makes much more sense to me. And sending supplies or even a "return vehicle" to Mars ahead of time would make even more sense.

      And on the Mars end of the situation, I would strongly suggest the use of Phobos as a depot for the same reason. The escape velocity from Phobos is trivial, and stuff dropped on the surface of Phobos is unlikely to get into a decaying orbit around Mars. Because landing and taking off from Mars is going to require dealing with atmospheric drag, you need spacecraft designed for such activities even with the thinner Martian atmosphere. The spacecraft needed for traveling to and from Mars can be quite a bit different than what is needed to get to the ground and back up again, not to mention what is needed once on the surface of Mars. "Parking" the interplanetary spacecraft on Phobos would be a good way to protect it in terms of shutting down the systems and conserving resources for the return trip.

      Just a thought here, but going to Mars does require some sort of in orbit infrastrcutre, and would allow for a sustained presence on Mars instead of just a simple "world wonder" show piece that demonstrates national pride but nothing else.

  20. Mod parent up for "That's My Bush" reference by Phu5ion · · Score: 1

    Or how about the Family Guy parody: "Pow! Right in the kisser!" "Pow! Right in the kisser!" "Pow! Right in the kisser!"

    --
    Slashdot is kind of like Playboy; we aren't here to read the articles.
  21. Launch Permits? by Locarius · · Score: 2, Insightful

    And where are they going to launch these craft? Not in the USA.... Bob Bigelow had to take his launch to Russia.

    1. Re:Launch Permits? by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1

      And where are they going to launch these craft? Not in the USA.... Bob Bigelow [wikipedia.org] had to take his launch to Russia.

      Bigelow was/is launching modules, not the full rocket.
      From your link:
      "Bigelow Aerospace planned to launch the initial Genesis I module in November 2005 on the maiden launch of the SpaceX Falcon 5 rocket. This launch was delayed to Q4 2006 and subsequently to Q1 2008. In the meantime, the initial Genesis I flight was switched to the Kosmotras Dnepr rocket."

      Not a case of 'not in the USA', but rather his initial choice of launch vehicle didn't pan out.

    2. Re:Launch Permits? by Reaperducer · · Score: 1

      Not a case of 'not in the USA', but rather his initial choice of launch vehicle didn't pan out.
      No, no, no. Don't you know how Slashdot works? If you don't bash America you're never going to get modded up!
      --
      -- I'm old enough to have lived through six different meanings of the word "hacker."
    3. Re:Launch Permits? by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      No, Bigelow _chose_ to launch them on the Dnepr. If you can pony up the cash, BoLockMart will happily launch your payload from the Cape or Vandenberg.

    4. Re:Launch Permits? by Tmack · · Score: 1

      And where are they going to launch these craft? Not in the USA.... Bob Bigelow had to take his launch to Russia.

      RTFA or go read up on the X-prize cup. Yes, in the USA, and no, this is not the first time they have been launched, and no its not really going to the moon. New Mexico has the US's first private space port down near Whitesands, where Scaled Composites/Virgin Galactic is supposedly going to be launching their commercial flight venture from. Other teams competing in this challenge have already been launching, with Armadillo Aerospace already completing the requirements without a problem (at last year's event they almost won, landing just off the pad a couple times, and flipping over). They should win hands down unless something major changes before this years competition gets underway. They have videos and details of this as well.

      Tm

      --
      Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
  22. I got all excited about this ... by the_rajah · · Score: 1

    until I learned that they didn't actually have to land it to the Moon to win the prize. Durn.

    Still, it's obviously not an easy task and is an important step.

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  23. I hope that guy with big squirrel sideburns enters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    he cracks me up.

  24. ObUserFriendly by sconeu · · Score: 1

    Erwin: Argh! Programming me for Lunar Lander you are!

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  25. LOTS of reasons... by charleste · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just to name a few:
    Kevlar
    Teflon
    Velcro
    TANG!
    Astronaut Icecream (love it when I'm backpacking)
    Plus loads of other things developed for the space program, that are in common use today. And if you think R&D will come up with stuff like this without the fire under their arses - that is the space program - you're mistaken. Few new ideas and revolutionary materials come about without a reason for application. For the most common example: Einstein didn't try to make a bomb - he came up with the idea... once there was an application, then it got built.

    1. Re:LOTS of reasons... by Fred_A · · Score: 1

      Why does this velcro thing keep popping up ? It has nothing to do wit the space program. And I have doubts with Tang too. Just because stuff gets used there doesn't mean it originated there (or you could also mention springs, doors, and rocket propulsion while you're at it).

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    2. Re:LOTS of reasons... by Spikeles · · Score: 1
      --
      I don't need to test my programs.. I have an error correcting modem.
    3. Re:LOTS of reasons... by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 2, Informative

      Kevlar

      Invented in 1965 as one of the many random synthetic fibers DuPont tried. The goal was to replace steel in tires, although Kevlar didn't get used for that for some time. Not developed for the space program.

      Teflon

      Egad, why do people believe this one? Teflon was invented accidentally in 1938. Non-stick teflon cookware was invented in 1954. Definitely not developed for the space program.

      Velcro

      Patented in 1951. Not developed for the space program.

      Tang

      Went on sale in 1959. Not developed for the space program, although later popularized by it.

      Astronaut icecream

      The only thing on your list actually invented for the space program. And it only flew on Apollo 7.

      And if you think R&D will come up with stuff like this without the fire under their arses - that is the space program - you're mistaken.

      Teflon was an accident. Velcro came from a Swiss engineer taking walks with his dog. Kevlar and Tang came from R&D people trying to develop new products with only ordinary corporate "fire under their arses". Manned spaceflight is heavily overrated.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
    4. Re:LOTS of reasons... by theJML · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree some of those are a bit off in popular thought, but check this list out http://www.thespaceplace.com/nasa/spinoffs.html for a list of NASA Spin-offs and space benefits.

      I really think that one of the best things from a space program is not any product, it's the realization of a vision. When a generation realizes that even something like the moon or planets is within our grasp, it's awe-inspiring and creates a positive in a world full of negatives. It gets people to believe in their dreams and aspire to be more than just another drone in society.

      --
      -=JML=-
    5. Re:LOTS of reasons... by Arterion · · Score: 1

      That sig looks familiar (like one of my old ones), and that name looks familiar. Did you ever used to hang out in a.2600.w?

      --
      "That which does not kill us makes us stranger." -Trevor Goodchild
    6. Re:LOTS of reasons... by Captain+Nitpick · · Score: 1

      That sig looks familiar (like one of my old ones), and that name looks familiar. Did you ever used to hang out in a.2600.w?

      Never even read it.

      --
      But then again, I could be wrong.
  26. Re:u NOOBS better QUIT down RANKING my COMMENTS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ok - we'll quit down ranking your comments. But only 'becuz ur gay'.

    xoxo

  27. The ninth team by dn15 · · Score: 1

    I think we'll soon be seeing an announcement of Google Lander Beta.

    1. Re:The ninth team by SpaceCracker · · Score: 1

      I thought it'd be Microsoft. After Vista seems to have trouble taking off, maybe Moonstruck would make a landing...

      --
      sigo ergo sum
  28. Helium 3 by Klaus_1250 · · Score: 2, Informative

    What's on the moon that's so great? Helium 3, which can be used in future generation fusion plants and is an incredible good power source.
    --
    It only takes one man to change the Wisdom of the Crowd to Tyranny of the Masses.
    1. Re:Helium 3 by Mr2cents · · Score: 1

      And oxygen. Everyone is speculating about possible water on the moon, but if they can find ice on mercury using radar, why haven't they found any on the moon? Maybe there is a little, but unless you find concentrated ice deposits, you'll have to set up quite a mining operation.

      If you can extract oxygen, I think it would make more sense to mine that than to go hunting water that very possibly isn't there. Hydrogen is much lighter, so cheaper, to haul into space. Oxygen makes the bulk of the weight.

      Transporting the hydrogen in the form of e.g. liquid propane might make sense. Both hydrogen and carbon are scarse elements on the moon, and propane is much easier to handle than cryogenic hydrogen (plus, hydrogen molecules seep throuh metal walls because they are so small).

      --
      "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
    2. Re:Helium 3 by Abcd1234 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's a great reason to go to the moon... so we can collect resources to power imaginary fusion plants.

      Honestly, how does that *not* sound incredibly silly?

  29. "non-propellant engine" by jriskin · · Score: 1

    SpeedUp, Laramie and Chugwater, WY: Led by Robert Steinke, a former employee of NASA.s Jet Propulsion Lab, SpeedUp plan to use a non-propellant engine.
    Lol, will be fun watching this one not fly! Someone should let the space.com people know the difference between a mono-propellant and a non-propellant engine.
    1. Re:"non-propellant engine" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gravity powered.
      Sure to land every time.

  30. This is cool and all... by kaizokuace · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I just don't wanna see the X-Prize become some reality tv show or something. Anyway, what I want to see out of this stuff is some sort of jump gate network in orbit. Like they gates are magnetic catapults and you just put your ship or whatever payload or something in it and you get tossed to the moon! Or string them up to mars! It would be cool methinks. It could be the answer to making private owned travel cheaper if it is cheaper energy-wise? I dunno cuz I'm not a physicist or engineer, just a guy with fantasies about space travel.

    --
    Balderdash!
  31. I thought nasa already had a lunar lander? by DragonTHC · · Score: 1

    Why not just use nasa's lunar lander design?

    --
    They're using their grammar skills there.
    1. Re:I thought nasa already had a lunar lander? by jonwil · · Score: 1

      Using the old Lunar Lander design in todays world of more modern technology would be like using a model T ford in a world of more modern cars.

    2. Re:I thought nasa already had a lunar lander? by RancidMilk · · Score: 1

      "Why not just use nasa's lunar lander design?"
      "Using the old Lunar Lander design in todays world of more modern technology would be like using a model T ford in a world of more modern cars."

      They could probably make the same design with half the weight and all the circuitry in a board the size of a quarter. Kinda reminds me of what apple did back in the day.

  32. -- Lego Lander by Auraiken · · Score: 1

    Well I assume getting a lego lunar lander up to an altitude of 150 feet would be pretty easy. ( by just strapping a rocket to it ).

    I'm just worried about the hovering for 90 seconds, might be a bit tricky.

    Oh. That AND trying to steer it onto landing sites without exploding from impact.

    That's just me though.

  33. It's spelled LUNER LANDER by pinchhazard · · Score: 1

    and it's from EVERETT Washington

    --
    Do you love freedom??? Do you love freedom!!! DO YOU LOVE FREEDOM!!!!!!!!
  34. MS by wikinerd · · Score: 1

    I only hope the ninth team isn't Microsoft

    1. Re:MS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the other 8 are though, cause wouldn't that increase their odds of winning??

  35. How about this for a benefit? by TheLink · · Score: 1

    There'll be benefits if every few years citizens could vote for someone to be sent there (one way/return).

    American Idol? Survivor?

    How about "Vote Em Off The Planet" ;).

    But you're right, just orbital would be good enough.

    --