New Drug Helps to Dampen Bad Memories

wile_e_wonka writes to tell us Researchers at Harvard and the Montreal-based McGill University are working on a drug that would allow psychiatrists to dampen painful memories in their patients when combined with therapy. "They treated 19 accident or rape victims for ten days, during which the patients were asked to describe their memories of the traumatic event that had happened 10 years earlier. Some patients were given the drug, which is also used to treat amnesia, while others were given a placebo. A week later, they found that patients given the drug showed fewer signs of stress when recalling their trauma."

Comments

Would this be the formula?

[Midnight Thunder]

Would this be the formula: CnH2n+1OH? At least it seems to be popular for dampening memories.

Re:Would this be the formula?

[bl8n8r]

> Would this be the formula: CnH2n+1OH?

acylic alcohol: http://alcohol.alto-infotech.com/

I'd prefer a nice fat marley.. no hangover. Natural too.

Re:Would this be the formula?

[Joebert]

There's also the generics' formula, Cr4+Ck

Re:Would this be the formula?

[utopianfiat]

H3C-H2COH = ethanol
methanol will make you go blind.

Can it be used offensively?

[Anonymous Coward]

An old girlfriend who dumped me, I'd like to erase the memories she has of how painful it was to be with me, so she will give me another try.

Re:Can it be used offensively?

[GreggBz]

That has some unintended consequences.

this just seems like a bad idea

[jt418-93]

it's important to remember the bad times, so you don't end up there again. something about those who can't remember history repeating it.....

Re:this just seems like a bad idea

[dave420]

Or what about folks who kill themselves because they can't live a day without being caught up in bad shit that's happened? They won't have a chance to learn from their bad times, as their bad times will have killed them. I'm not having a go at you, but bad memories aren't always afterschool-special-type memories, but often some really fucked up shit that reaches down to every atom in your body and flatly refuses to let go, even slightly. Stuff like this drug might actually help some folks try to live a normal life again.

Oh yeah

[SpiffyMarc]

I saw this movie. While they are administering the procedure, Elijah Wood steals your underwear and Kirsten Dunst hits on an old guy.

Count me out.

But at what cost to your soul?

[decipher_saint]

So, you take a drug and make something traumatic in the past go away. My philosophical question of the day is thus:

If reality is perception, and the basis of perception is memory and you can alter memory, are you changing your personal reality and in effect, changing who you are? Is the only cure for trauma personal metamorphosis?

I can understand that there are people who are so traumatized by past events that they require medical attention but is effectively erasing those events from memory the best solution? I guess a follow up question is a drug like this something that will be abused and furthermore, how can I get some of this to dab on past potential girlfriends I said stupid things to?

Re:But at what cost to your soul?

[stonecypher]

If reality is perception

It isn't. This is easily demonstrated by beating a coma victim to death. They won't perceive your actions, but they'll still die. If you really want to try the schroedinger's cat falling in a forest line of things, make a robot do the beating. The coma victim will in fact die without being measured.

and the basis of perception is memory

It isn't. There are a variety of individuals with brain injuries that impede or destroy memory. They can still perceive you, and remarkably, they're often still able to function to a degree in the real world.

are you changing your personal reality

There's no such thing as a personal reality. Put down the Led Zeppelin, and if you're well educated in Philosophy, climb out of the barrel. You can make all the solipsisms you want, and yes, it's particularly difficult for me to convince you that I exist, when you can just claim that every sense by which you're detecting me is faulty.

That said, this isn't The Matrix, and you can be affected without being aware of it. As the old saying goes, the bullet you don't hear is the one that killed you.

and in effect, changing who you are?

This ... is a difficult point. On the one hand, yes, in many ways we are created and defined by our experiences. On the other hand, though, in many ways we aren't. Consider for example that thing that Ripley's Believe It or Not always does when they're out of material, where they find two twins who were seperated at birth, and point out how they wear the same kind of clothes and the same teeth are missing and their girlfriends both have the same weird deformities and whatever.

Are you removing part of who you are? Maybe. But, look, what about if you lose your fourth toe? You lost a little bit of who you are there, too, and you're a different person for it. Sure, it's a trivial tiny difference, but it is a difference. These things have a scale. I was changed as a person when I got my elbow injury. Not in a huge way, sure, but it's real. I stopped working out because the stress on my elbow is no longer safe. I used the scar to impress each of two different girls.

So, you remove a traumatic memory. Does that change a person? Sure. But, then, change isn't always a bad thing, and there's such a thing as changing back - or, at least, there may be now. Consider the case of someone coming back from a brief tour in war, with shell shock. They can't talk, they can't sleep, they scream every time there's a loud sound, and seeing a gun on TV leaves them crying for hours. Don't laugh; there are people who were wounded psychologically in just such a way.

Say you could remove those memories. Say that turns them back into (almost) who they were before the war. Is that a change? Yes. But maybe you might do better to think of it as a "change back." This drug is apparently thought of for trauma. Rarely is it the case that those changes caused by trauma are beneficial. I'm no psychologist, but can see the case for this maybe becoming an important tool in repairing serious psychological damage.

Is the only cure for trauma personal metamorphosis?

Of course not. People come back from trauma every day. That there are other ways, though, doesn't mean that this way isn't important. There are something like 30 ways to remove an ulcer. Half of them are in use today. One might expect there to be only one, but the human situation is complicated; sometimes you need to do it through the mouth, sometimes through the butt, sometimes with a remote control robot, sometimes by just opening the stomach.

Different situations need different solutions.

I can understand that there are people who are so traumatized by past events that they require medical attention but is effectively erasing those events from memory the best solution?

You're not going to get very many good comments...

[Himuanam]

The most traumatic thing most of Slashdot has experienced is having their parents turn off their internet connection, come on, all we're going to get is comments about alcohol or how we're becoming a drug-obsessed culture. Experience something *really* traumatic or know someone who has, and you'll see the benefit of research like this.

Right...

[p3d0]

it's important to remember the bad times, so you don't end up there again. something about those who can't remember history repeating it..... Yeah, those rape victims really should try harder next time not to get raped.

Re:Right...

[grasshoppa]

Yeah, those rape victims really should try harder next time not to get raped.

No one likes to say it, but often times rape victims should have known better.

Go out with the guy that other girls warn you about? Sure, why not. They must be jealous is all.
Walk down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood? Sure, what could possibly happen?

I am not saying these things are their fault; The sick fuck who did it deserves to have his balls chopped off for it. What I am saying is that, from a rational perspective, if you can learn from your previous mistakes you won't repeat them. This obviously doesn't apply to people just minding their own walking down the street, which is a smaller subset of overall rape victims.

Women; Learn how to defend yourselves. A knee to the groin will usually disuade the most aggresive attacker, and pepper spray is always a hit at the parties. You are in control in that confrontation; The attacker has just convinced you otherwise. Don't let him.

Re:Right...

[grasshoppa]

Speaking as someone who has worked the doors, messed around with lots of martial arts, and known some of the foremost self-defence experts in the world, that's complete shit. You have obviously never been in such a situation.


Never been in a rape situation? True. Never been in a situation where I needed to take someone out of a fight? False. It has been my experience that, unless some serious drugs are involved, a knee to the groin and some pepper spray usually disuade any male from doing pretty much anything for the next 10 or so minutes.

It is extremely difficult for a woman to fend off a serious attacker.

Only if she believes that.


Pepper spray is also next to useless. A better option is a spray can of WD40 at the eyes. I'm told that's very nasty, and effective.

Speaking as someone who's been hit with pepper spray, I don't buy it. Even those around the initial impact area experience breathing problems and have a hard time getting their eyes open.

I can't speak for WD40; But whatever works.

The drug has...

[niceone]

...been in use round here for a while, it's called Dupesol(TM).

Re:Eternal Sunshine

[MikeFM]

Yeah, for some of us that'd set us back to prenatal mindsets. I think Eternal Sunshine was convincing enough that doing this is a bad idea. IMO there is just about nothing as bad as someone you cared about forgetting you.

60 Minutes piece

[artemis67]

60 Minutes did a report on a drug (Propranolol) that has a similar effect, and is already available on the market (to treat a different symptom). What was interesting about the report was the relationship between adrenaline and the formation of memories; i.e., the bigger the adrenaline surge, the more powerful the memory that is created.

Here's the whole segment, chopped up into bite-sized morsels:

The Memory Pill

Re:Great - More consciousness altering drugs

[Anonymous Coward]

Quote: "if you clear the symptoms with mind numbing drugs, it means you just suppressed the symptoms, not removed the actual cause."

I hate to say this, but you can't change the past.

Just these memories? Or all?

[Opportunist]

How does a drug target specific memories? Or does it simply make you an emotional brick?

I'm always wary when I hear things like that. Drugs that change your mental framework. We don't know jack about the brain, to be blunt. LSD has been out for decades now and we still don't have a clue just how that stuff works. Yet we keep cranking out more pills for "mental" problems.

Why do I also have the feeling that this pill would only suppress the traumatic experience instead of making people deal with and resolve it? Is that the new medicine? Instead of curing, we treat. Which is incidentally also more profitable, because a cured person is just that, cured. Doesn't need more medication. Treatment, though, can take months, years, decades or however long you want. And for the whole time, he keeps swallowing tablets and gets his shots.

Re:Just these memories? Or all?

[stonecypher]

How does a drug target specific memories?

There are quite a few substances which are already known to target memories. This just happens to be the first one which isn't somewhat poisonous. I don't know the underlying mechanism for this one, but several derivatives of hemlock reveal a toxin which is both highly polar and ferromagnetic. It's quite simply attracted to the cells of the brain that are currently in use; you tend to start losing what you're thinking about during the poison's course through the body. Read about the Roman Senate; that kind of toxin was blamed repeatedly for the change of several specific Senators' positions.

Now, granted, that particular substance does a lot of other damage to the body and brain too, but if you were to combine that kind of mechanism with a molecule dependent on some surface receptor on the parts of the brain responsible for memory storage...

We don't know jack about the brain, to be blunt.

Actually, most current brain medication was designed from scratch. We know quite a bit about the brain. There's a lot left to learn, but several antipsychotics in current use were put together by an engineer who wanted specific results. Don't confuse that you don't know jack about the brain with that the rest of us don't.

LSD has been out for decades now and we still don't have a clue just how that stuff works.

Actually, we've understood LSD for about a decade. Try keeping up with the literature if you're going to feign familiarity.

Yet we keep cranking out more pills for "mental" problems.

And most of them replace something older, and almost all of them are an improvement on what they're replacing. What, precisely, is your point?

Why do I also have the feeling that this pill would only suppress the traumatic experience instead of making people deal with and resolve it?

Probably because it's blatantly obvious that you can't resolve something you don't remember. Y'know, that whole common sense thing.

Instead of curing, we treat. Which is incidentally also more profitable, because a cured person is just that, cured. Doesn't need more medication.

People who argue based on assumptions are tiresome and boring. This is a permanent effect. Try reading about the pill before assuming it's a lifelong commitment; it isn't.

Also, I'm not sure if you knew this, but if the treatment isn't permanent, it's not a treatment. I realize the semantic difference you're trying to make, but perhaps you should spend some quality time with a dictionary. Treatments are permanent. That's why it's called "treated wood."

Treatment, though, can take months, years, decades or however long you want.

Wrong. It's not a treatment until the day it's successfully, permanently over.

Re:Just these memories? Or all?

[Hatta]

Actually, we've understood LSD for about a decade.

Knowing that LSD is a partial agonist at the 5-HT2a (and to some extent 1a) receptor is a far cry from knowing "how LSD works". How does stimulation of those receptors create the subjective LSD experience?

Re:You don't look too happy...

[Tim C]

Self-medication is done without training or regard for potential damaging side effects. Self-medication with alcohol and other narcotics also generally has a social impact as well as a negative impact on the user's own life.

When a trained medical professional prescribes a drug, you have to assume that the drug itself has been through a rigorous testing and approval process, that the medic is well-trained and completely aware of what they're doing, etc. (I know that's not always the case, but it's far more likely than in the self-medication scenario)

Basically, if you self-medicate, especially with alcohol or narcotics, you're far more likely to fuck up than if you take a prescribed drug.

Ever wonder if the original author reads TFA?

[TheMohel]

It's not a new drug that was tried by Harvard and McGill, it was an old favorite, propranolol. This is a nonselective beta blocker that has anti-adrenaline actions (oversimplifying radically) in the CNS as well as across the body, and it's used for a dozen purposes other than this one. This was actually fascinating research, because they're basically using an old standby drug to help desensitize certain traumatic memories. There was no assertion in the original article (other than the Star Trek pandering at the end) that the memories were eliminated entirely, although eliminating emotional tags to memories would have the side effect of making them harder to recall.
 
We know that the beta blockers have significant mood and activity side effects. In fact it's a common limitation on their use. In this case, though, it looks like the researchers are capitalizing on these side effects to make people's handling of trauma better. Cool. This is a use that will probably see more significant human clinical trials in the short run. Propranolol is a very cheap and very well-understood medication.
 
In the case of the rat studies with the actual new drug, it's early but interesting work that might or might not have human implication in the future. I'll be nervous about it without a lot more research, and I suspect that the greater degree of wiring in the human brain and the relative resilience of memory are going to be harder nuts to crack, at least in the short term.

Re:Expensive Escapism Aid

[trolltalk.com]

"I don't see how a chemical that supresses feelings that need to be felt is going to be at all beneficial to a trauma victim"

Past a certain point, the feelings don't need to be felt - they're a barrier, not a character-builder. By reducing the associated stress, maybe the person is able to be less afraid look closer at what happened, and gain new insight?

We do it with mood-altering substances all the time, from "comfort food" to chocolate to booze, etc. All legal. Sugar has a tremedous impact on your mood - just look at any hyper kid on a sugar high - and yet I don't see people recommending we starve people because food can alter your moods.

I'd say lets do some more testing and see what happens.

PACIFY

[hoggoth]

'Ok, Mr. Jones. How do you feel now?'
'I feel wonderful...'
'Do you still feel outraged when you think of our government controlling your life?'
'No, it really doesn't bother me that much.'
'What about this protest meeting you are organizing?'
'Oh, that. I know it should be important, but I really don't feel like going anymore. I think I'll stay home and plant some flowers.'
'Good, Mr. Jones, you may go now.'

Oh, come on, mods...

[zombie_striptease]

Pissed because p3d0 made a valid point? Fine, forget the inflammatory wording and concentrate on the content: there might be some traumas that aren't constructive or character building. Sometimes, bad shit just happens, without any sort of silver lining. Would you look down on someone for needing help coping and finding it in a treatment like this?

I presume it also reduces Déja Vu experiences

[ardle]

I'm not surprised that the drug described in the 60 Minutes show had similar effects; it's the same drug!

FTFA (first sentence in second paragraph):

In a new study, published in the Journal of Psychiatric Research, the drug propranolol is used along with therapy to "dampen" memories of trauma victims.

Here's a Slashdot discussion on it from Jan 2006
And here's the most useful post from that discussion

Not true....

[Anonymous Coward]

remember goatse?
yeah so do I. *shudder*

PTSD

[Adult film producer]

I've heard and seen these stories about vietnam vets that lived tortured lives after coming back. Every day being a struggle to deal with the memories of that war. Some of them who have gone back to vietnam (in peacetime) find the experience liberating. Being able to face what has scrambled their brains for so many years, maybe it gives them a new perspective, but it seems to ease the pain.... not so sure this would help a rape victim, or maybe it does when they face the perpetrators in court?

Re:You're not going to get very many good comments

[AutopsyReport]

Ok, I'll bite. I know your half-joking but as someone who has a wealth of traumatic experience under my belt, I do not see the benefit of this research.

Me and my extended family combined have been through suicide, two rapes, abortion, divorce, infidelity, homelessness, and a slew of other things that many people face, but many do not. I don't consider myself unlucky or unfortunate. You're probably thinking I come from a wrecked family or live in a poor part of the country, but the opposite is true. I come from a very solid family. We are all good, successful people that have made poor bad decisions, had bad things happen unexpectedly, or a mixture of both. Many of the ordeals we've been through are terrible to imagine, deal with, and recover from. Drugs would have temporarily aided, but they wouldn't have provided a lifelong solution to dealing with the problems.

It's the decisive moments where you put the spurs on and kick your own ass through a problem that builds character, experience, and a willingness to push forward with life. Drugs are not a solution to navigating your way through the shit life throws at you. Your compass is the willingness to use hard work, patience, forgiveness and toughness to continue moving forward.

People that fall back or remain stagnant for long periods of time after a terrible experience do not have the power to move foward; drugs will not aid in gaining this force.

Re:You don't look too happy...

[(negative video)]

We already have therapeutic techniques which allow for the effective treatment of PTSD, and more recently a bump in the effectiveness and practicality of exposure therapies.

Requiring the person to spend hundreds of dollars and take dozens of hours off work.

This drug basically serves no meaningful purpose beyond the lining of the pharmaceutical corporations pocket books.

A 10 day course of propranolol has a full retail price of $4. And most of that is the overhead of having a pharmacist count out the pills.

Using drugs whether legally prescribed medications or illicit drugs is not something which promotes self awareness, ...

We're not talking about stopping awareness, we're talking about stopping excessive amygdala-based aversive fear conditioning, which is an involuntary, unconscious process.

... nor does it teach an individual how to cope with sudden resurgences of symptoms and ways of avoiding similar problems in the future.

The goal is to reduce resurgences, not paper them over with coping training. And regarding future avoidance, just how often are you planning on repeatedly raping or burning the same person?

Most psychiatric medications have a purpose and proper formal testing, but they as of now have yet to prove that any of the medications do anything other than just cover over the existing problems. There is no actual evidence which demonstrates that the medications are actually doing anything related to the initial dysfunction.

RTFA. The study described demonstrated lasting psychiatric changes, of a character reasonably believed to be improvements, in humans. Incidentally, propranolol has been around for decades and has a long history of benefits for several acute and chronic neuropsychiatric conditions.

Classification

[Mathness]

Would propranolol be classified as a recreational drug?

Drug Helps to Dampen Bad Memories

[splatter]

hum, seems to me back in college I found this.. Oh Yeah it's called Pot!

Re:You're not going to get very many good comments

[howlinmonkey]

As a person who has a wealth of traumatic experiences, I have to say that you couldn't be more wrong. I have experienced abuse, neglect, abandonment, extreme poverty and more abuse. I have also lived with depression for most of my life. I have attempted suicide, hurt myself, and lived long stretches where I was barely functional because of this illness.

I am sick of hearing that depression, or other mental illness, is somehow a character flaw. I am beyond tired of hearing that I, and others like me, need to "kick our own ass" and get up and get moving. I am sorry that you had such difficult experiences, but it is obvious that you do/did not suffer from anything like depression or PTSD because of them. Drugs have been a form of salvation for me, allowing me to live without the lingering effects of the awful things I experienced. I am able to function normally as a husband and father today because of drugs.

Before you go spouting off your Ayn Rand self-reliance, pull yourself up by your bootstraps BS, understand that the experiences of other might be different from your own. Count your blessings that you were able to survive without medication or other intervention, but refrain from judging those of us who are "weaker", and need the help.

Two problems

[mux2000]

One problem is that it doesn't dampen existing memories, but makes it harder to create new short-term memories - That's one problem. The other is that it doesn't dampen existing memories, but makes it harder to... where was I... hmm... I'm so thirsty... I wonder if there're any cookies left. brb.