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Forget Math to Become a Great Computer Scientist?
Coryoth writes "A new book is trying to claim that computer science is better off without maths. The author claims that early computing pioneers such as Von Neumann and Alan Turing imposed their pure mathematics background on the field, and that this has hobbled computer science ever since. He rejects the idea of algorithms as a good way to think about software. Can you really do computer science well without mathematics? And would you want to?"
Maths IS needed for computer science. Just be sure not to confuse Computer Science with Software Engineering. Software engineering is only a part of the computer science sphere.
Good luck on doing a kernel, file system, network stack, crypto, image processing, window manager, animation or 3D without math or algorithms. I look forward to reviewing some of this guys code.
I attained a Computer Science BS in 1986. At the time everyone was getting Math minors. I opted for a communication minor instead. I've worked in high-tech engineering environments with real-time programming for many years. What I found is that I've never needed the intense mathematics attained by those with math minors. I needed to be able to implement equations that staff mathmaticians would develop. Though math is a fundamental of computer science, I believe the ability to logically assess a situation from multiple perspectives; communicate your approach with the customer; and then implement a maintainable solution is the key components required for computer scientists.
This guy just doesn't seem to understand what math is. Substituting theory of computation with his "theory of expressions" just shifts focus on another field of math.
I sometimes run into great algorithm programmers who were poor at math, but they're rare, and usually can be explained away based on what kind of drugs they did in college. For a good algorithms guy, I love hiring good mathematicians and physicists. You can train them into great programmers a lot quicker than the other way around. However, algorithms are really a very small part of the programming space we work in. I choose to work in this space because it suits me, but most programmers never need calculus. To build a tree-based data structure and a GUI to drive it takes about an 8th grade level of knowledge. Doing a GUI really well takes creativity I've never had (apparently a lot of guys like me work at M$. I don't know where Apple finds it's GUI guys).
The summary of the author's points in the article make the book sound dead wrong on several counts, though it could just be the review. Procedural languages are the natural way to code most programs, and here's why: we've been recording recipes as a sequence of steps, with if statements and loops, since the invention of writing. It's become encoded in our genes. That's really all that early computer scientists put in our early languages like FORTRAN. It's all the stuff we've added since then that's up for debate, in my mind. The author makes money by pushing the boundaries of computing model research. I get big programs written by teams by restricting what language features are used, and how. I'd be interesting to debate the ideas, point by point.
Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
Do the lessons of VB6 teach us nothing?
People have been fucking saying this about various versions of BASIC since the beginning. Instead of trashing it, what did BASIC's various incarnations teach us?
It taught us that Microsoft could roll what amounts to a scripting language into its Office line and make the programs ever more powerful without having to relearn something completely new and difficult. An education in just about any language, a book or a list of commands, and some time and you will have a fully functional module or two that saves you a ton of time and energy.
I honestly think a lot of the hostility, here, towards VB has to do with the fact that now pretty much anyone can write code and that it's from Microsoft. If you're somehow saying that if they used C/C++ or even Perl that their code would somehow be wonderful or safe, you're insane.
COMPUTING IS HARD. You can't dumb it down just because it would be nice to do so. And I'm sorry but mathematics is just the way in which meaning is expressed for machines. There's no free lunch here. And he's wrong about algorithms too - since a non-terminating algorithm is always expressible by deconstruction into a series of terminating algorithms.
I agree and while most applications require this, if you look at VB as a way to either get people started coding or to do quick things because it's built into the system instead of concerning yourself with the necessity of math-based algorithms, it serves its need.
I'm no math whiz but I can write code (in languages other than VB) and so can plenty of others. Enough putting people down and being on your high-horse because you write in such and such. Math is important to CS and so is easy access to be able to write code.
The term itself is a product of the academic environment, similar to the equally dubious "Library Science" and "Management Science". For what it's worth, the European term "informatics" would have been better, but never caught on.
That said, I believe there's a useful set of relationships well understood in other fields:
Science = The search for fundamental knowledge and predictive models;
Engineering = The creative application of the results of science;
Technology = The routine application of the results of engineering.
giving us, for example:
Science: Physics
Engineering: Electrical engineering
Technology: TV Repair, Cable TV Installation
The punch line is that application of this model to computing works as follows:
Science: Mathematics
Engineering: Programming, Informatics, "Computer Science"
Technology: Coding, Computer Installation, Home Computer Repair, etc.
Mathematics IS the science in "Computer Science".
Anyone who has studied advanced Mathematics knows that Math is not about numbers; think of mathematical logic, Boolean algebra, abstract algebra, set theory, topology, category theory, etc. ad infinitum. Dijkstra defined Mathematics as "the art of precise reasoning". In the same sense, "computation" doesn't mean "number crunching", but more generally the automated manipulation of information.
It is true that there are legitimate concerns in today's computational landscape (networking, concurrency, etc.) which didn't figure in the mathematical/engineering world view of the 1940s, but that's simply a sign that the field has grown up (i.e. grown beyond the limited perspectives of its founders). That's also true in many other applications of Mathematics. For example, early research in differential equations paid much more attention to linear differential equations (because they were more tractable). However, we now know that most "interesting" systems in the real world involve non-linearity.
Science, Engineering, and Technology share with living systems an important rule: "Grow or die!" Fortunately, the field of computing has grown.
"Doing a GUI really well takes creativity I've never had (apparently a lot of guys like me work at M$. I don't know where Apple finds it's GUI guys)."
Maybe the question should rather be: Why doesn't Microsoft look for the kind of GUI-guys Apple hires. And the answer to that might well be found at the top of each company. A quote from Steve Jobs' Commencement address at Stanford (June 12, 2005):
"Because I had dropped out [of college] and didn't have to take the normal classes, I decided to take a calligraphy class [...]. It was beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can't capture, and I found it fascinating. None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life. But ten years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography. If I had never dropped in on that single course in college, the Mac would have never had multiple typefaces or proportionally spaced fonts. And since Windows just copied the Mac, its likely that no personal computer would have them. If I had never dropped out, I would have never dropped in on this calligraphy class, and personal computers might not have the wonderful typography that they do."
Read the whole thing, it's quite interesting (if not to say: inspiring).
sig? Oh, that sig...
Funny story about work.
The current back-end system that translates front-end customer orders to actual tangible products often fails silently, and the person who wrote it (who's still with us), thinks that's okay.
Eventually, management got tired of people not getting their orders, or getting the wrong person's order, and not having a way of detecting that there's any problem. So they hired a new guy to write a new production system.
Talking to the new guy, he said that the system is almost working, but it fails silently, and he should add error handling if he has time.
DO PEOPLE NEVER LEARN!?!!
Error handling isn't optional. Error handling isn't something that gets added into a system. It should be an integral part of the system's design. Furthermore, with exceptions, error handling is painless. There's no excuse for not thinking about it.
This system is also much more complicated than its predecessor. It needs a dedicated server, uses a long-running daemon process that polls(!) a database for something that really should be a simple event-driven process, and still fails silently!
Also, another harbinger of doom: "I don't need to use version control. I'm the only one working on the system."
I am a DSP programmer, which basically means that all the stuff I code are mathematical formulas transformed into C code. I mention DSP because writing DSP algorithms forces the programmer to know his math really well... enough so that he can distill the complex math into an efficient C code implementation.
I remember trying to get my specific algorithm to run under 500 micro seconds and the best I could get was like 10000 micro seconds. My coworker who looked at the underlying math equations for my code easily saw a better solution just by looking at the math equations for 5 minutes. After I changed my code to suit the new math equation I got my code to run at 280 micro seconds.
The whole point of this example:
When you approach the solution from a mathematical viewpoint, the mathematical viewpoint lets you see more clearly how to optimize an algorithm. In my case, I got lost looking at the C code and missed the elegant mathematical solution because I did not look at the math equations. So I ended up not being able to "distill the complex math into an efficient C code implementation" to find the elegant solution.
In my case the elegant-math-derived-solution was about 35 times faster (10000 / 280) than the original solution I had come up with.
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Bottom line: The syntax and complex notations used for math equations lets you look at a problem from a much higher level of abstraction and this higher level of abstraction is much more conducive to seeing the elegant best solution (solutions that improve your algorithm by an orders of magnitude rather than solutions that improve your algorithm by some linear constant).
p.s. if you were wondering what I was working on --> the function was a GMSK modulator ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GMSK ) for a transmitter.
Bewcause it doesn't say anything at all like he's claiming it says.
It was garden variety executive directed securities fraud. Not errors created by poor VB scripts in Excel.
VI. MISAPPLICATIONS OF GAAP, WEAK INTERNAL CONTROLS, AND
IMPROPER EARNINGS MANAGEMENT
As noted in previous chapters of this report, the extreme predictability of the financial results reported by Fannie Mae from 1998 through 2003 was an illusion deliberately and systematically created by senior management. This chapter provides specific examples how senior executives exploited the weaknesses of the Enterprise's accounting to accomplish improper earnings management and misapply Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP), and how they used a variety of transactions and accounting manipulations to fine-tune the Enterprise's annual earnings results. Those actions aimed to perpetuate management's reputation for achieving smooth and predictable double-digit growth in earnings per share and for keeping Fannie Mae's risk low, while assuring maximum funding of the pool from which senior management would receive bonus payments under the Enterprise's Annual Incentive Plan as well as maximum payments under other, longer-term executive compensation plans.
To provide context for the technical material that follows, the chapter first expands on several issues raised in the previous chapters by elaborating on the concept of improper earnings management and describing the circumstances that demonstrate that Fannie Mae senior management must have been aware of the evolving official concerns about such practices.
Following those discussions, the chapter reviews the improper accounting policies and control weaknesses that created opportunities for inappropriate manipulation of earnings at the Enterprise. The chapter then describes inappropriate accounting undertaken to avoid recording other-than-temporary impairment losses to avoid earnings volatility. The chapter concludes with discussions of several additional techniques used by senior management to fine-tune reported earnings results.
The actions and inactions of Fannie Mae senior management described in this chapter constituted unsafe and unsound practices that involved failures to comply with a number of statutory and other requirements. Several independent authorities, for example, require the Enterprise to verify and submit financial information. The Fannie Mae Charter Act--the statute that created the Enterprise--specifically requires that quarterly and annual reports of financial conditions and operations be prepared in accordance with GAAP.1 The Federal Housing Enterprises Financial Safety and Soundness Act of 1992, OFHEO's organic statute, requires Fannie Mae to provide OFHEO with reports on its financial condition and operations.
Similarly, regulations promulgated by OFHEO under that statute require the Enterprise to prepare and submit financial and other disclosures that include supporting financial information and certifications, on matters such as its financial condition, the results of its operations, business developments, and management's expectations.
Moreover, in accordance with applicable safety and soundness authorities, Fannie Mae should have had an effective system of internal controls in place under which:
policies and procedures would be sufficient to assure that the organizational structure of the Enterprise and the assignment of responsibilities within that structure would provide clear accountability;
policies and procedures would be adequate to manage and safeguard assets, and assure compliance with applicable law and regulation;4
policies and procedures would assure reports and documents would be generated that are timely, complete, and sufficient for directors and management to make informed decisions by providing relevant information with an appropriate level of detail; and
policies and procedures for managing changes in risk would be sufficient to permit the prudent management of balance sh
Bah -- "more", "less" -- these concepts are so mathematically antiquated.
You are a programmer, not a computer scientist. I'd hire you to write code based on a specification. I wouldn't hire you to design rendering algorithms. It is too bad they didn't teach you the difference between compsci and programming during day one of your CS program.
Oh I see. All this time I was lead to believe that Donald Knuth created TeX to satisfy the desperate need for a half decent digital typography tool and after all it must have been due to some class that steve jobs took when he dropped out of college. Knowing that TeX remains to this day the best typesetting system and knowing a bit about Adobe and the history of PostScript, I guess that that half baked assertion makes sense and must be true.
...or maybe not.
Please. Steve Jobs doesn't walk over water, nor is he behind every single thing which can be accounted as progress in the computer world. This whole jobs-worshiping thing is starting to become ridiculous.
Slashdot, fix your code or at least hire someone who is competent at it to do it for you.