One Laptop Per Child and Intel Join Forces

dan the person writes "A Wired piece informs us that Intel and the OLPC project have put their bickering behind them. They have joined forces to ensure 'the maximum number of laptops will reach children'. '"What happened in the past has happened," said Will Swope of Intel. "But going forward, this allows the two organisations to go do a better job and have better impact for what we are both very eager to do which is help kids around the world." "Intel joins the OLPC board as a world leader in technology, helping reach the world's children. Collaboration with Intel means that the maximum number of laptops will reach children," said Nicholas Negroponte, founder of One Laptop per Child. The new agreement means that Intel will sit alongside companies such as Google and Red Hat as partners in the OLPC scheme.'"

Comments

I have a bad feeling about this

[Azuma Hazuki]

Wonderful. Intel, maker of the Classmate PC, a DIRECT COMPETITOR to the OLPC (or so they say) is now teaming up with it. This is a transparent bid to relegate the OLPC to permanent second-class citizenship. With friends like these, who needs enemies?

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Stanistani]

I can see two tiers of low-cost laptops, as discussed in the Wired piece, being an advantage to a rollout, and the technical assistance (possibly some funding) from Intel being invaluable.

Intel knows that if this effort is successful, their future customers will be using these devices.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a bad feeling about technology in general. Back about 10 years ago, I couldn't wait to see the day when we figured out more efficient ways of creating oxygen so we could completely demolish all the trees to build massive cities. (Of course, this was a very ignorant view for many reasons, seeing as how most of our oxygen comes from the sea, and, if we were to destroy all trees there would be a multitude of problems completely aside from oxygen, etc.)

Anyway, my point is this. I don't claim to be 'grown up' or amazingly insightful or even intelligent beyond what society would consider the norm, but, I do believe we are shooting ourselves in the foot by becoming so dependent on technology. We have no idea what the end result will be with the ways the new generations are going to be surrounded by things most people never even considered as children. You have to admit, this next generation about to be born is going to live in a sci-fi world compared to what people from B.C to 1930 AD were born into, so to even speculate one way or another how this is going to turn out is pure speculation, we have nothing to base our comparison on. My speculation is this. Everyones going to become even more dependent on technology for everyday things. (we already depend on the technology i speak of everday, for transportation.) Imagine a big enough solar flare happens and EMP's 99% of the computers on the earth. How do you rebuild our technology based society when the computers that made computers no longer function? What happens when 100% of the coders on the surface of the planet only know shit like C# and have no idea how the fundamental systems were designed? What good is an extensive knowledge of Perl/C++/hell even LISP python and fortran, if, all the hardware you used to compile and create is dead. If that big enough emp happened, all of our current technology would become extinct. Could you imagine the panic? We consider ourselves to be an intelligent, non barbaric people. Apparently the only thing that keeps our barbarism in check is our gadgets. Weaksauce.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Alistar]

Heck, we basically live in a sci-fi world looking through the eyes of a 1930s person.

They would have never have thought you could get a computer into the size of a watch.

Secondly, there is more to computer and technology group than coders.
I don't know what your background is specifically, but something that electronic engineers learn in their very first year of classes is a little thing called the transistor and boolean algebra. Thats kind of pretty much where our modern electronics stem from at the moment.

I can build you an AND gate an OR gate, a NAND gate out of 3 cent transistors. If I plug enough of those transistors together in logical patterns I can basically make the equivalent of a processor (it would huge and weak compared to today) but its a start. Size would take a step back till the miniturization could be redone I suppose, but its not quite the apocalyptic scenario you make it out to be.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't quite think you grasped the concept of the scenario I described. Where would you get these transistors in a world where everything was EMP'd? You'd have to make them from scratch, because all of the computer driven machinery that mass produced them for 3 cents consumer cost, simply wouldn't exist.

Heck, we basically live in a sci-fi world looking through the eyes of a 1930s person.

They would have never have thought you could get a computer into the size of a watch.

 
that was my point, exactly. but, to make it hit further home realize this -- we understand that in the 30s it was sci-fi, we understand that most of the technology existing right now was somewhat sci-fi to us, growing up -- now think about this up and coming generation. constantly surrounded with electronics we could have never imagined as children. to them it will be standard, commonplace, banal - so the thought of the 30s people looking at it as sci-fi won't really be interpretable by them, or, at least, not in the way it is to us.
 
 

Secondly, there is more to computer and technology group than coders.
I don't know what your background is specifically, but something that electronic engineers learn in their very first year of classes is a little thing called the transistor and boolean algebra. Thats kind of pretty much where our modern electronics stem from at the moment.

 
at the moment im the it manager for a decently sized company. im 24, and have been working on computers (as a job) for 10 years. i had to get my underage workers permit way back in the day to do it. i've always had a strong drive to learn all i could about technology. my point is this. sure, electronics engineers learn that stuff, but, generally speaking, most of them don't understand it, or use it enough for it to be second nature to them (walk up to a random EE thats been in the field over 8 years and ask him if he could, from scratch, build a working archaic pc. lets assume he's one leet bastard and does somehow manage to build an archaic pc, completely from scratch, using no modern day electronics during the process of building it.. continue reading.). if everything went down, it would take us many years to rebuild the basic framework, and it would be drastically different from the original framework. so different, in fact, that unless many man hours were spent on compatibility between what 'was' then, nothing would remain the same as it is today. this EMP would kill all the hard drives in the world, and the computers that manufactured said hard drives. how would you store data? all ram and motherboards are dead. how do you even attempt to write data to the nonexistent hard drive? im telling ya man. if every electronic device was destroyed, all at once, it would be rebuilding -everything- from square 1. by the time we had the basics redone, most of the IT gurus of today would be dead, and, even if they werent, their 'advanced' knowledge would in effect be obsolete because the entire foundation/framework of the new electronics would be completely redone and virtually nothing would be as it was.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Alistar]

I am afraid I still have to disagree, you do make good points, but:

The first transistor was created in 1947 according to a quick google search.

Thats 60 years from the first transistor to what we have now. Thats not a long time especially considering that we will retain our knowledge of how they worked. I'll admit, we will lose a lot of stored knowledge yes, but surely you would have to admit that it would not take 60s years again.

Now assuming progression of any sort, that gap widens and, without any further information on this scenario, this would increase the technical learning curve to beyond a single generation.

However, it should also be noted that as things pass from cutting edge to mundane and consequentially are considered common knowledge, the age in which one acquires this knowledge becomes lower. For example, in 1947, the first transistor was probably not taught in first year engineering courses, but now heck I know 14 year olds that know how it works, and given the proper materials could probably fashion a crude one from scratch. So as the technology gap increases so does common knowledge of this technology.

Well there would certainly be setbacks, I cannot argue this, I still believe that we could bounce back within a reasonable time frame.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Anonymous Coward]

i agree to a certain extent but disagree for the most part.

in 1947 when it was a new discovery it was new and not exactly an essential piece of the 'fabric' of society. it wasn't a cornerstone of the foundation everything is now based on.

if that big enough EMP happened, there would be a small amount of people that would be working on bringing the technology back. for the most part, people would be trying hard to survive. everyone would be going apeshit. no cellphones would work. hardly any cars. sure, you could go to radioshack in the mall and raid it for parts that weren't destroyed (PCB boards, a few items of prefabricated circuitry) but, just getting to the mall, into raidoshack, and back to wherever you're attemping to assemble the stuff is going to be a serious risk to your life. i can assure you that if the big EMP happened, people would revert to barbarism and it would make doing any mundane task a seriously life threatening ordeal.

lets assume you do get all the pieces together in one place. how are you going to solder stuff together? no electricity. the power grid is completely down and all the hardware that once made it function is now EMP'd to a crisp.

If the big EMP happens i can assure you society, in its current state, will not be looking to help their neighbor. they will be thinking 'how much water does he have in his fridge. i wonder if that antique car he had still works. didnt he have a power generator? maybe by some streak of luck it still works.'

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Anonymous Coward]

>have been working on computers (as a job) for 10 years
Well, after you're done fixing the other problems with the computer, you should concentrate on the keyboard - the shift keys are broken.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[cecil_turtle]

2 things that I think are being overlooked in this discussion:

1) Optical storage contains a lot of data that would be unaffected by an EMP, and I imagine people would be able to come up with a rudimentry way to read it pretty quickly. Also information stored on paper would be unaffected.

2) I think you overestimate the power of an EMP. An EMP doesn't eliminate the existance of electrons or prevent wires from ever carrying current again. Many basic electric devices could still function or function again with little repair. Also I can't imagine being able to blanket *the world* with a strong enough EMP to destroy everything, something, somewhere, will survive. I bet there are even facilities designed to survive it.

So with the existance of some infrastructure, some reference material and, as previously discussed, the knowledge already being out there, I think we'd rebound fairly quickly.

Your best argument is the one that people would just be trying to survive and it would be chaos without the level of communication that our current society is used to, and with everybody's bank account presumably wiped out.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[MightyMait]

You guys are also overlooking us tin-foil heads who magnetically-shield and harden all of our electronic gear to prevent the emitted EMF's from driving us mad ;) All my gear will be just fine after the big EMP!!

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[Anonymous Coward]

oh so i dont capitalize or place proper punctuation, big fucking deal dipshit. im not writing a college essay here. fucking retard.

Re:I have a bad feeling about this

[craiglarry]

It's too soon to tell. Right, really right. But let's take the high road here and give three cheers for both making peace in an apparent bid to help the children of the World. There is one more serious flaw than Intel turning and eating OLPC, in the event this happens. The worst case scenario is that people will actually believe a computer is a good correction for NO educational system or s REPAIR of a flawed education system In either case these kids continue to lose.

Intel Geode

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, well for AMD. I wonder if it the Geode is going to be kicked out of it.

Though, I can't think of anything in Intel's lineup that competes with it at the low end that is x86.

Re:Intel Geode

[Anonymous Coward]

Aye, that's the big worry isn't it? Isn't the Geode 0.7W to 2.?W for the whole platform (CPU + mobo), whereas Intel's lowest energy CPU is 3.?W all by itself?

(can't remember the numbers, too lazy to look them up)

Gar

[Neil Blender]

Just give them a Speak & Spell. It'll have as much value at a quarter of the price. Plus it already exists.

Re:Gar

[Anonymous Coward]

You can give one to the Mexicans in the US while you are at it.

Their plan all along?

[InvisblePinkUnicorn]

Does anyone else think that this was part of Intel's plan all along? Basically: create a cheap computer, and call the OLPC garbage, then offer an olive branch in exchange for a piece of their contract and a chance to push their crap PC worldwide?

Re:Their plan all along?

[charlieman]

So Embrace,Extend and Destroy?

So i guess

[Anonymous Coward]

that AMD processor won't last long in the OLPC machines ...

Re:So i guess

[Pecisk]

RTFA. AMD will power first and second series of OLPC machines. Intel will provide platforms (propably some low level P4/Xeon with resistant structure) for _servers_ which will serve those little boxes in class room and outside of it.

After that it is hard to say - I think AMD processors are more suitible for OLPC for now, but what will future bring - who knows.

Re:So i guess

[TheRaven64]

I think AMD processors are more suitible for OLPC for now, but what will future bring - who knows. I'm really surprised they went with AMD. They are using the Geode line, which is basically a souped-up 486. Intel don't have a direct competitor since they sold their XScale line off, but I don't understand why they went with Geode rather than an ARM9 core of some kind. Going x86 limits them to two suppliers (only one really at that performance level), while a large number of companies produce ARM chips. Additionally, ARM chips are in pretty much every single mobile phone, and so they are used to huge volumes. The only things I've seen Geode chips in have been relatively low volume.

With the whole software stack being Free, it's not like they need to run legacy x86-only code...

Re:So i guess

[Anne_Nonymous]

No, OLPC and Intel are simply joining forces to create the new Soylent processor - One Child Inside(TM).

Re:So i guess

[Oldsmobile]

I suspect Asustek's EEE PC is one reason they decided to join. They're going to hit the po' folks crowd with a $200 dollar laptop and let OLPC worry about indoctrinating their children.

Re:So i guess

[arivanov]

You are right that going x86 limits them to two suppliers in this space, but the suppliers are not AMD and Intel, they are AMD and Via. Any C3 series CPU beats the holy crap out of the Geode while having comparable power consumption if run at the same frequency. In addition to this, the more recent ones have crypto accel which can become very handy when trying to establish mesh networks in the middle of nowhere. Add to that a very reasonable and throughly open source platform for the rest. The only missing bit Via did not have was wireless, but it could have probably teamed up with someone for a project this size.

Re:So i guess

[Anonymous Coward]

I spent the last couple years working with desktop-class applications on the PXA2xx family of XScale processors. I don't blame OLPC for chosing the Geode, I wish I could have done the same. Some arguments for the Geode over an ARM system:

• It implements the x86 architecture, which has far better support for desktop applications than ARM
• There are far more desktop developers working on x86 than there are ARM
• Power consumption of the Geode is competitive with that of high-end ARM systems (really!)
• ARM systems at the time didn't play well with high-resolution screens - 640x480 was a stretch, let alone 1200x900
• Firefox is a dog on many (all?) ARM cores I've come across. No cache, often no FPU, and GCC isn't quite there yet.
• The Geode isn't *that* slow - the LX family is surprisingly quick
• The off-the-shelf tools for media (video) playback on Linux are far better for x86 than ARM
• AMD is a partner, and on the board

Re:So i guess

[bill_mcgonigle]

I don't understand why they went with Geode rather than an ARM9 core of some kind.

I've been looking at this issue, and basically using a PC-compatible architecture makes so many things easier, especially when you're talking about desktop apps, driver support, etc. etc. etc. Linux on ARM is a confusing mess to get working for people used to PC's. I've got a Geode board here running an OLPC image, which is a basically a Fedora I can telnet into and get work done using standard tools. Replicating this around the world should be a good thing.

Re:So i guess

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the Geode LX is more like a Pentium internally. Just because the Cyrix 5x86 plugged into a 486 motherboard doesn't mean anything.

Re:So i guess

[Breakfast Pants]

"Linux on ARM is a confusing mess to get working for people used to PC's."

Are you talking end users or developers? End users don't see any difference. Most stuff already works with arm, so apparently developers don't see much of a difference.

Re:So i guess

[RightSaidFred99]

Ever heard of Silverthorne? Reap the whirlwind: http://overclockers.com/tips01150/

Hard core high performance (per watt especially) SOC.

Re:So i guess

[bill_mcgonigle]

Most stuff already works with arm, so apparently developers don't see much of a difference.

All of the stuff I've seen involves setting up cross-compilers, building firmware images, burning those images to target boards, debugging with JTAG's, etc. With a PC-based system you ssh in and hack.

Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[bADlOGIN]

Before the US becomes a 3rd world country due to competition from
India and China who can get the OLPC Laptop in special deals to
make their next generation of children more competitive?

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Reality Master 101]

Before the US becomes a 3rd world country due to competition from India and China who can get the OLPC Laptop in special deals to make their next generation of children more competitive?

I've seen two examples of schools in my local neighborhood bragging about how their gifted fifth-grade students were using Powerpoint to give their school reports. In one case, I saw an example of it with all sort of pictures, and the GATE teacher bragged, "and one report had a video on it!!"

Of course, I'm thinking how pathetically easy it is to put together this sort of presentation, and I was struck not by the content (as I should), but by how much the teacher valued the flash over the substance of the report.

If we want to make our children more "competitive", maybe it would be a better idea to keep computers away from them as long as possible. Any idiot can learn to use a computer. I'd rather end up with educated children.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[fiannaFailMan]

Of course, I'm thinking how pathetically easy it is to put together this sort of presentation, and I was struck not by the content (as I should), but by how much the teacher valued the flash over the substance of the report.

I had the same problem in pen & paper days. Some of my teachers were more worried about the presentation and neatness of handwriting than they were about what I actually wrote. One of my teachers even bragged about how his teacher used to beat the crap out of him if the letters on his page weren't exactly the 'right' height. I think you're probably seeing a modern version of the same phenomenon. It's usually a sign of an incompetent teacher. When they don't know their stuff, they just can you for something irrelevant to seem like they're doing something. Fortunately, I found those teachers to be in the minority.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Reality Master 101]

I had the same problem in pen & paper days. Some of my teachers were more worried about the presentation and neatness of handwriting than they were about what I actually wrote.

Well, I don't know if I'm willing to go this far. There's a difference between neatness and flash. If I was a teacher and had to squint at chicken scratches trying to understand what a student wrote, I'd make neatness count as well. Part of education is learning to be organized and have reasonably clear penmanship (another item that computers are corrupting). While I believe content is important (as I stated), I'm not going to say that content is the only thing that's important.

(that said, clearly insisting on letters exactly the right height is fairly absurd)

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Prof.Phreak]

If we want to make our children more "competitive", maybe it would be a better idea to keep computers away from them as long as possible. Any idiot can learn to use a computer. I'd rather end up with educated children.

Which might explain why they're not giving out these things in US. It's all a conspiracy for US to gain intellectual supremacy over the world.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[TheRaven64]

Same here. My average grade in English was a C, because I have terrible handwriting. At GCSE, when we were allowed to use a computer, it shot to an A*. Now I make a living as a freelance writer (if only I could charge /. my standard rate I'd be rich). Handwriting and command of the English language were so tightly connected in the minds of some teachers that good work in poor handwriting would get bad marks.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Oldsmobile]

I remember reading an article about schools in the US who have given out laptops to children. The article concluded, that laptops have been a mixed blessing, and certainly have not contributed to higher grades. In fact, they have been deemed a nuisance in the classroom by some, causing disruption and being a distraction to students (surfing porn in class, lol). Maintenance issues have also been cited as a major drawback of such programs.

Of course the OLPC is directed at very young children, children who live in third world countries and have software that is specifically designed for classroom use.

Laptops in classrooms are certainly the future, but the whole thing needs to be well thought out and isn't just a matter of handing out laptops.

Having said that, I do support the OLPC project and hope western countries will realize the benefit of these computers.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[smannell]

I agree with your sentiment, but just to be anal; it's Old World, New World, and Third World. The US is part of the New World, and will be even after the dollar becomes useless and our GNP is less than that of Bangledesh.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[mrchaotica]

I've seen two examples of schools in my local neighborhood bragging about how their gifted fifth-grade students were using Powerpoint to give their school reports. In one case, I saw an example of it with all sort of pictures, and the GATE teacher bragged, "and one report had a video on it!!" Of course, I'm thinking how pathetically easy it is to put together this sort of presentation, and I was struck not by the content (as I should), but by how much the teacher valued the flash over the substance of the report.

You know what the worst part is? This is actually a regression from what we had 15 years ago when I was in 5th grade!

Back then, we had Hypercard -- like PowerPoint, except programmable. Not only could we have embedded videos in our stacks (if sufficiently fast machines had been available, anyway), but we could also program animations, link together our cards/slides in non-linear ways, and even build applications with it.

Between Hypercard, LOGO, and games like Number Munchers and Oregon Trail, computers were better used for education back then than they are today!

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[mrchaotica]

At GCSE, when we were allowed to use a computer, it shot to an A*.

Your grade turned into a search algorithm?

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Anonymous Coward]

You may be anal, but you are also wrong.

The term "Third World" usually refers to one of two things:
#1- Countries that did not specifically align them selves with the First World (the US, Europe, and the "West") or the Second World (the USSR, eastern bloc, and communist countries) following World War II, or
#2- Countries in the developing world, regardless of their political affiliations

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Anonymous Coward]

Back then, we had Hypercard -- like PowerPoint, except programmable.

Um... PowerPoint, like the other Office applications, has been scriptable via Visual Basic for Applications for years now. It even has its own little IDE built-in. You can assign scripts to on-screen objects that run during the presentation when you click on them or move the mouse over them.

Admittedly, this is not PowerPoint's primary purpose, and other things like HyperCard (or Squeak!) may work better for scriptable presentations. But if you were determined, you could write your own Myst-like game in PowerPoint.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[suv4x4]

This is actually a regression from what we had 15 years ago [..] Back then, we had Hypercard -- like PowerPoint, except programmable.

Uhm yea right... Powerpoint is also programmable (VB), but the UI is just good enough that you don't need to do it. I mean there's no much to *program* in a *presentation* right, let's be fair...

Next thing you'll claim graphical UI is a step back from the superior command prompt (since it's harder).

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Breakfast Pants]

I guess you would also give bad grades to black kids because they had different accents? Who the hell are you?

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[Reality Master 101]

I guess you would also give bad grades to black kids because they had different accents? Who the hell are you?

Uh.... no.... but I would give bad grades in a speech class to someone who mumbled. This isn't about different styles of writing, it's about legibility. I wouldn't care if someone puts a horizontal line through their Z or not, but there's no excuse of total sloppiness to the point that you can't read it.

Too many people give excuses about their writing. Anyone can write neatly, and above the age of 10, they *should* be able to write neatly. It doesn't take an obsessive compulsive to produce decent lettering. I can write fast and sloppy, or I can write slow and neat. It's not that hard, it just takes a teaspoon of patience (I know, I know -- patience in the instant gratification generation? What an idea.)

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[mrchaotica]

I mean there's no much to *program* in a *presentation* right, let's be fair...

That's exactly my point! Hypercard wasn't just for presentations, with programmability hidden away as an afterthought. And that's exactly what made it good!

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[RespekMyAthorati]

Hah! That's nothing.

In my day, each of us was given a stone abacus, which we had to lug to and from school each day, uphill both ways. They were originally called "100lb laptop" machines, although they really ended up weighing 175 lbs.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[zobier]

I miss HyperCard.

Re:Does that mean US parents can buy them now?

[elrous0]

In my day, we had sticks and dirt. And, as humans hadn't invented written language yet, the only thing they were good for was eating and hitting each other with.

good news for the RIAA

[cashman73]

The RIAA is really looking forward to the day when every child in the world has their own computer. There's tons of countries in the developing world that they'll now be able to target with threats of lawsuits for downloading copyrighted music!

Re:good news for the RIAA

[Spy der Mann]

I better copyright those kids and claim them as my own, this way the RIAA will have to pay ME royalties whenever they sue them! :D

does this mean...

[shutupkevin]

that we're going to have a lot more children discovering internet porn sooner? :O I can just imagine the next generation of kids.

Re:does this mean...

[Rob T Firefly]

that we're going to have a lot more children discovering internet porn sooner? Sooner? Didn't your parents have the special magazines in the sock drawer?

:O I can just imagine the next generation of kids. Good for them. At least they won't have to find out at such an early age what disturbing fetishes their parents have.. *shudder*

Re:does this mean...

[Anonymous Coward]

..or your own 2600 leader's "mishabits," for that matter.

Remember to properly log out, people, sometimes it matters. -Things can't stay hidden at the loft forever, gotta air some times.

Re:does this mean...

[mrchaotica]

I can just imagine the next generation of kids.

Yeah, imagine a whole generation of kids growing up without the unhealthy guilt our prudish society indoctrinated into us!

Re:does this mean...

[suv4x4]

that we're going to have a lot more children discovering internet porn sooner? :O I can just imagine the next generation of kids.

I just realized something: each baby when born is looking and sucking his mom's boobs few times each day. This sort of perversion should be really unnatural and stressing for the child.

Imagine the terrible kinds of effects this has on its poor baby psyche. Those mothers are monsters!

Re:does this mean...

[elrous0]

Do you realize what an opportunity this represents for third world kids? They'll be able to start running identity theft scams and credit card frauds before they even reach puberty!

Cost cutting measure?

[slapout]

OLPC guy #1: Looks like we're not going to be able to make this thing for $150. How are we going to get costs down?

OLPC guy #2: Guess it's time to sell some more ad-space. Where are we on the phone list?

OLPC guy #1: Looks like we're doing to the "I"s.

OLPC guy #2: Start dialing.

Re:Cost cutting measure?

[Anonymous Coward]

HAHA it is like THE SIMPSONS you SO FUNNY and not LOSER!

with Intel involved

[Anonymous Coward]

Call me a cynic, but with Intel involved their claim of "maximum number of laptops will reach children" means that no child will get one.

Three possible scenarios...

[WIAKywbfatw]

I expect one of three things to happen:

1. The second generation of OLPC units will ship with Intel inside.

2. Intel will suck as much information as it can out of the OLPC project before going its own way again.

3. Intel will stay onboard at OLPC but do its best to bog the project down while pushing its competing solutions to the developing world.

None of those scenarios particularly appeal to me, but if I had to choose between them I'd go for the first one.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[Joe The Dragon]

4. The system will come with suck ass on board video and will also need to come with 1gb - 2gb + 15 of ram + 15gb+ of flash just so it can run vista as by the time like the OLPC v2 comes out XP will be not sold any more. Right now the classmate has 256mb of ram with on board video and it can run xp but that needs 2GB of NAND Flash and trying run vista on 512mb with on board video will not work.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[daskinil]

should run vista just fine with 1gb of RAM and on board video, at least that what my laptop has, i gots no lag- and its not exactly a new or high end laptop

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[mrchaotica]

...just so it can run vista as by the time like the OLPC v2 comes out XP will be not sold any more.

If the XO ran Windows -- any version -- it would be worse than useless for the purpose of the OLPC. The whole point is to have software designed for education, wrapped in an operating system that's completely user-modifiable (to encourage the students to creatively hack it). This is fundamentally incompatible with Windows.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[Joe The Dragon]

but It will still need a lot disk space for it.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[suv4x4]

The whole point is to have software designed for education, wrapped in an operating system that's completely user-modifiable (to encourage the students to creatively hack it). This is fundamentally incompatible with Windows.

Yea it's like the real world: you're free to develop products that work within it, but you can't change laws of physics. This should be pretty distressing for a child.

But I say we take this further. If Vista is useless since you can't have a kid recompile it, how useless is a hardware you can't reconfigure it? Kids that want to become chip builders will definitely be harmed by this. I say, let's make every PC come with a tiny CPU manufacturing facility built in.

Guys what's wrong with you. Not every kid in the world will become an instant geek when it touches a Linux laptop: that's not the idea.

There are great number of reasons why Linux is better than Vista: Vista is huge (can't run on a light machine), expensive (...), and closed, which makes the platform non-free (means, manufacturers have to go pay someone or ask someone to fix something for them).

That's the big idea behind using Linux, not that every kid will wake up in the morning and compile his kernel for breakfast.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea it's like the real world: you're free to develop products that work within it, but you can't change laws of physics. This should be pretty distressing for a child. Unless there were no reason you couldn't change laws of physics other than someone decided they'd make more money if you couldn't. Then, yeah, distressing.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the laws of physics should be analogous to the hardware of the laptop, not its OS.

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[Seq]

Not every kid needs to. Just some. I went nuts when I learned basic, and had spent many hours with another friend making various programs when we were kids. Most of my class-mates were (and the few I know still are) simple users that barely manage point and click their way through email.

If instead of giving me that opportunity when I was younger, somebody figured that statistically I would not be interested, I would have never gotten into computers. What the OLPC guys are doing is saying that kids might be interested in modifying the system, or creating something new. And you really have no idea what they might want to try, so why have any software limits at all?

Re:Three possible scenarios...

[daskinil]

true- i probably wouldn't install it on anything less than a 20gb drive, thats the size of my partition i got vista on now, thats if you want to load apps on it of course- like visual studio or matlab

Computing for everyone...

[going_the_2Rpi_way]

It's a great idea and a noble goal. But there's still a lot of valid questions about how good an idea this specific project is. Aside from the clear opportunity for people, government and corporations to take advantage of good intentions, there's a consistent theme of imposing western/northern hemisphere values for the wrong people place/application.

It's not unlike the good intentions that led to rebuilding of "better" houses in Sumatra for instance after the great Tsunami. Modern, western style housing just doesn't make sense there. It uses and demands much more freshwater than traditional homes and no-one can afford to run them. As a result the population has typically abandoned the new homes, which remain unoccupied, in favour of traditional homes.

In fact I would argue that corporations (and governments who use money to buy these computers) will likely breed more hostility and resentment than anything by disseminating computers to people who can't afford three squares a day.

Re:Computing for everyone...

[Prof.Phreak]

There are also questions as to how -useful- laptops are. Over the last 10-20 years, as computers were introduced in US schools (high schools?), did grades (or any other educational indicator) go up overall? The few 1-3 nerds in every class might've benefited, but overall, I doubt technology impacted everyone's ability to learn (if not caused more harm).

From my experience, kids who have laptops spend their day browsing the web or chatting... not learning. Every class that has computers turns out to be a waste (I've yet to see a class with computers that isn't a waste; and I taught quite a few of them).

If nothing else, I think laptops for everyone will dumb down the world's kids (sure they'll know how to type, email, and IM, but they won't know how to THINK).

Re:Computing for everyone...

[FunWithKnives]

If those kids weren't browsing the web, they would more than likely be sitting in front of a television like zombies, being force-fed what to think. You may have a valid concern regarding computers in classrooms, though I believe that they can be a very good thing as long as they are implemented properly, but kids browsing the internet after school instead of laying on the couch, watching some fucking reality TV show is a good thing. Passive entertainment is nothing but a problem, as far as I am concerned.

Re:Computing for everyone...

[mrchaotica]

From my experience, kids who have laptops spend their day browsing the web or chatting... not learning. Every class that has computers turns out to be a waste (I've yet to see a class with computers that isn't a waste; and I taught quite a few of them).

Back when I was in elementary school, the classes that involved things like Hypercard and LOGO weren't a waste. Perhaps the problem lies not with the concept of putting computers in the classroom, but with the dumbass teachers who think MS Office is the ultimate concept of computing!

Re:Computing for everyone...

[DragonWriter]

Aside from the clear opportunity for people, government and corporations to take advantage of good intentions, there's a consistent theme of imposing western/northern hemisphere values for the wrong people place/application.

No one in the developed world is forcing developing nations governments to choose to spend their own money to buy into the OLPC project. It's not like the US Marines are landing on the beaches of Brazil and distributing XOs at gunpoint.

All OLPC does is work with countries that decide they like the idea to meet their needs, and sell them computers. If they don't want them, they don't have to buy them. And since its a nonprofit and therefore its not like Nicholas Negroponte has stock to skyrocket or derive dividends from, I doubt they are going to be corruptly influencing government officials to buy into the project the way a for profit vendor might.

(OTOH, I'd say that, compared to the XO, the ClassMate certainly seems to have some of that first-world priority, wrong-tool-for-the-job character for some of the OLPC target countries, but its probably a better choice for some of the more developed and/or industrialized areas that have not been interested in the OLPC per se but might be interested in something vaguely similar.)

It's not unlike the good intentions that led to rebuilding of "better" houses in Sumatra for instance after the great Tsunami. Modern, western style housing just doesn't make sense there. It uses and demands much more freshwater than traditional homes and no-one can afford to run them. As a result the population has typically abandoned the new homes, which remain unoccupied, in favour of traditional homes.

Actually, I think that's exactly how the XO is not like that kind of housing project (though, again, I suppose the ClassMate might be.) While frequently derided in forums like slashdot (and, for that matter, by competing hardware projects and software vendors for whom the XO is a poor fit) for not meeting the expectations of a modern, western-style computing device, the XO (and the specs for the OLPC projects other devices like the school servers) are very carefully designed for the environment and role planned, in consultation with the people who would be using them.

In fact I would argue that corporations (and governments who use money to buy these computers) will likely breed more hostility and resentment than anything by disseminating computers to people who can't afford three squares a day.

Where governments maintain populations that can't eat adequately, that itself generates quite a bit of resentment. The marginal resentment resulting from giving those same people computers would probably be small. But, anyhow, governments whose main problem is starving populations aren't generally participating in the OLPC project. A few really crushingly poor countries might get the OLPC early on as a result of Libya's exploration of purchasing the OLPC not only for its own schoolchildren, but also for those in some poorer African countries,

Re:Computing for everyone...

[going_the_2Rpi_way]

All OLPC does is work with countries that decide they like the idea to meet their needs, and sell them computers

I'd refer you to the history of Eritrea and Ethiopia, Uganda, or countless others. It's not uncommon for regimes, or even benevolent governments to have priorities different from the populace (this even happens in North America, but since we're talking about 'developing'). And if you don't think governments can be coerced into buying specific products through purely economic methods, you haven't been paying attention.

Where governments maintain populations that can't eat adequately, that itself generates quite a bit of resentment. The marginal resentment resulting from giving those same people computers would probably be small.

Which is my point to start with. Spending -any- money on a computer for someone that doesn't have access to food or water is ridiculous. Imagine watching your son die from hunger and the next day getting a lovely plastic computer - for free! How would that make you feel? Spend the money on food or water first. Then maybe on basic healthcare, or classrooms with at least pencils and paper so kids and adults can learn to read and write.

Also, these types of projects have a history of being abused or counted towards 'aid' commitments.

Anyhow, I'm hardly the only one saying these things and I know a lot of these and related issues (like security) are being discussed by the OLPC, but they've yet to really be answered.

Re:Computing for everyone...

[Anonymous Coward]

there's still a lot of valid questions about how good an idea this specific project is.

Just from the distribution and storage aspect, this project is a clear winner.

The $175 cost of one OLPC laptop needs to be compared with the costs of providing the same wealth of learning materials in traditional textbooks and hardcopy libraries. In the target areas for OLPC, the shipping costs and the janitorial and maintenance costs for hardcopy libraries is going to exceed the laptop expense. The ease with which digital educational materials can be upgraded or molded to fit a village's specific needs is also significant. The way OLPC can be dovetailed with the OpenCourseWare movement is yet another boon.

OLPC is not intended as a replacement for traditional hardcopy based education. It is intended as a way to bring basic literacy into areas that traditional means have never been able to penetrate.

Re:Computing for everyone...

[DragonWriter]

I'd refer you to the history of Eritrea and Ethiopia, Uganda, or countless others. It's not uncommon for regimes, or even benevolent governments to have priorities different from the populace (this even happens in North America, but since we're talking about 'developing').

No doubt, government decision makers can have different ideas of what is useful than the people, and even when they don't, both government decision makers and the people can be wrong at the time they make decisions and those decisions can be misguided and resented by the people at the time they bear fruit, however much they were in accord with the desires of the people when made.

Nevertheless, other than the abstract possibility that such a disconnect could be occurring here because it has occurred in the past, no real reason has been presented for believing that the participation of specific governments in the XO project is such a disconnect.

And if you don't think governments can be coerced into buying specific products through purely economic methods, you haven't been paying attention.

Since I specifically discussed the possibility in the post you are responding to, and discussed why I didn't think it was likely to be a factor in the OLPC project, I don't think you should be accusing other people of not paying attention.

Where governments maintain populations that can't eat adequately, that itself generates quite a bit of resentment. The marginal resentment resulting from giving those same people computers would probably be small.

Which is my point to start with.

That's odd, since its directly contrary to the point you offered that it was in response to. I think you mean "it presupposes one of my points", to wit, your idea that these will largely be going to starving people. It meant to do that, illustrating how your resentment point was overstated even presuming the point underlying it was true. I also addressed the misguidedness of that underlying point.

Spending -any- money on a computer for someone that doesn't have access to food or water is ridiculous.

So? Access to food and water isn't a problem for the vast majority of the people for whom these computers are being purchased.

Imagine watching your son die from hunger and the next day getting a lovely plastic computer - for free! How would that make you feel?

Why should I imagine that? How is it relevant?

Spend the money on food or water first.

Insofar as food and water (and electricity, healthcare, roads, physical structures for schools, etc.) are problems in the target areas, most of the countries involved are spending resources to address them already. In many cases, there is a point of diminishing returns where there is a limited amount that can be done efficiently at a time, and you have to complete that before moving on to the next project. These problems can't just absorb more resources efficiently to cut down the time to solve them.

Then maybe on basic healthcare, or classrooms with at least pencils and paper so kids and adults can learn to read and write.

Uruguay has a 98% literacy rate. Argentina about 97%. Libya, Brazil, and Peru above 80%. Getting "classrooms with at least pencils and papers so kids and adults can learn to read and write" is quite simply not a fundamental pressing need in most of countries that are involved in the OLPC.

Also, these types of projects have a history of being abused or counted towards 'aid' commitments.

What "type"? Examples?

Re:Computing for everyone...

[going_the_2Rpi_way]

Nevertheless, other than the abstract possibility that such a disconnect could be occurring [..] Since I specifically discussed the possibility in the post you are responding to,

You dismissed it. Unduly, I feel, but whatever. I raised it again, but as less of a caricature. Whenever any product goes from A) to B) dollars are spend and margins can be made. And in such cases, whenever there's a possibility of someone making a buck, there's also a probability of it. If you want me to provide evidence that it will happen, well your about a year too early.

So? Access to food and water isn't a problem for the vast majority of the people for whom these computers are being purchased.

It's the problem for the vast majority of people, period. And it should be a priority for anyone trying to 'help'.

Insofar as food and water (and electricity, healthcare, roads, physical structures for schools, etc.) are problems in the target areas, most of the countries involved are spending resources to address them already. In many cases, there is a point of diminishing returns where there is a limited amount that can be done efficiently at a time, and you have to complete that before moving on to the next project. These problems can't just absorb more resources efficiently to cut down the time to solve them. [...]
Uruguay has a 98% literacy rate. Argentina about 97%. Libya, Brazil, and Peru above 80%. Getting "classrooms with at least pencils and papers so kids and adults can learn to read and write" is quite simply not a fundamental pressing need in most of countries that are involved in the OLPC.

So the target group you mention includes people who can read and write (a minority in many countries), probably only in the roman alphabet. Hopefully these people have sufficient means to meet the basic necessities of life, but they are not yet purchasers of IT-related goods.

So the goal is not necessarily to help the most needy, but to develop a taste for tools, interfaces, and brands in a developing market. It sounds an awful lot to me like car companies giving away toy cars to kids during the depression.

Also, these types of projects have a history of being abused or counted towards 'aid' commitments. What "type"? Examples?

Here's a few:
http://www.cbc.ca/onthemap/fullpage.php?id=93

In particular, note the following passage:

Phantom aid includes over-priced technical assistance, tying aid to purchases from the donor countries own firms, high-cost consultants, excessive administrative costs, and double counting of debt relief.

Sound familiar?

Anyhow, I'm not saying it's a bad project, but people need to ask and keep asking these questions.

Re:Computing for everyone...

[servognome]

There are also questions as to how -useful- laptops are. Over the last 10-20 years, as computers were introduced in US schools (high schools?), did grades (or any other educational indicator) go up overall? The few 1-3 nerds in every class might've benefited, but overall, I doubt technology impacted everyone's ability to learn (if not caused more harm).

Teaching with technology isn't better than older methods of teaching reading or math, but I would say that children are more familiar with technology. The last generation there were a handful of students in each classroom with computer skills, now it's majority.
Scores for subjects have pretty much remained flat, but periphery skills such as computer literacy, video presentation, are definately improved.

Energy crisis...

[drwhite]

So in the next few years almost every child in 3rd world countries one will have an model OLPC? Talk about an environmental crisis...All the energy that will be needed to power these babies!

Shouldn't we be more concerned with stabilizing third world countries first then giving them technology?

Re:Energy crisis...

[Eco-Mono]

They're crank-powered. Totally clean, renewable energy! Well, unless you count the methane emmissions from rice-and-beans diets ;)

Easy solution

[aztec rain god]

Two laptops per child!

Re:Easy solution

[Aqua_boy17]

Hmm. I didn't know they made dual core children.

Re:Easy solution

[goarilla]

what about this http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20041201/dl2.jpg

Re:Easy solution

[dn15]

Actually three. They'll also get Apple's new $100 laptop, the iOLPC. Competitively priced at $150.

Re:Easy solution

[thegnu]

Yeah, but it's easier to use. See? One mouse button.

Re:Easy solution

[Vexorian]

Even easier: NO mouse buttons!

OLPC is a project - Classmate is a device...

[Glasswire]

The current device that the OLPC has created is neither the last nor possibly the only unit that the project might support. If you look at roadmaps, esp since Intel is 18 months ahead of AMD on manufacturing process technology, it will have much more powerful cpus than the dated old National Semi Geode technology that AMD bought - in a similar or lower power profile. Check out Silverthorne to see what's coming.
Negroponte was probably right to use Geode when the the first OLPC unit was designed, but looking into the future, Intel cpus will make much more sense for this.
In any case, there's no reason Intel can't create a different model for other markets, but with full embrace of OLPC by Intel, the project is actually much more viable.

Notice someone missing?

[Penguinisto]

...so, umm, what happens to Microsoft?

Since the OLPC is running a FOSS OS core, and Intel is part of the OLPC now, I guess this leaves Windows out in the cold.

Not that I mind that or anything, but I find it interesting - after all, Intel and MSFT had teamed up to build the OLPC former competitor, yes?

As for AMD, I suspect that they and Intel will have to put their differences aside (w/o all the sniping commentary from AMD over a charity team-up announcement, at least as shown on the CNET version of TFA... man, that was just tacky).

/P

Re:Notice someone missing?

[musicon]

Actually, Intel's Classmate PC is designed to run either Windows or Linux, and on all of the reviews I have heard thus far Mandriva Linux was the installed OS.

Additionally, although it's unlikely to work well within the system's constraints, Microsoft is also at least evaluating the OLPC, and is one of 1500+ developers signed up with them.

Finally (slightly off topic), now that Intel has sold off the ARM division, I don't know that they have a low-enough wattage CPU at this time that could be a viable replacement for the Geode.

Re:Notice someone missing?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is the cpu in the Asus EEpc that will sell for $200. Asus is making a profit at that price, so the cpu should only be slightly more expensive than the Geode. Not to mention, it will be about 3 times faster...

Battery life could take a hit though because the current OLPCs run at 5w max, and I really doubt that intel can make a pentium m use 1/5th the usual amount of power.

The Letter 'i'

[alexj33]

They just need to put a letter 'i' in front of its name in order to make it catch on.

LinuxBIOS and Open Specifications for Intel?

[billybob2]

One of the key requirements for the OLPC is that all the components are open source (even the firmware for the wireless component). AMD has worked very hard to make the OLPC compatible with LinuxBIOS and OpenFirmware, which are 100% Free/Open Source. I certainly hope Intel will do the same.

One VM per child?

[A non-mouse Coward]

So between this and yesterday's news, are we going to see OLPC output one VM per child for those where infrastructure is possible to do so?

NPR revisits a school with laptops (grade 7 &

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?story Id=4660781

Basically, the students aren't doing any better with the laptops.

Waits to be flamed

[jshriverWVU]

The OLPC concept is good, but seriously I think we have more pressuring issues to deal with. I'm not against the advancement of technology and what the OLPC has done has been good for what it was designed for.

But at the same time I feel like it's a waste of money compared to better causes, like I dont know, FEEDING or MEDICINE for kids. Granted I grew up poor, and I wish I had a laptop when I was in high school and younger would have been able to kick start my career even earlier. But even then if it came to me having a free laptop, or seeing the kid down the street who eats government peanut butter on bread (no jelly) every day and no medical insurance. I'd gladly give it up to feed him/her for a while.

From a small thinking perspective this project is great, from the big picture it's just diverting funds that could have been better used. For those about to flame me, Yes we should go to Mars! But we should we get things straight down here first.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[phedre]

I have to agree with you. I remember when a friend of my dad wanted to start a project to get computers into the classrooms of some south african (i think) village. After much discussion, we all decided that it was not the most pressing issue in the village, and that they could be better helped in other ways, as you said.. food, clothing, medicine, shelter, REGULAR school supplies.. etc. you get the idea.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[Anonymous Coward]

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.
Teach a man to fish, let him feed himself for life.

We need to send send them fishing poles.

Sending poor people people consumables is all well and good. But at what point do you cut off the welfare?

Would it not be better to teach someone to do something and give them the accomplishment, than giving them something that will be gone tomorrow?

S

Re:Waits to be flamed

[pauljlucas]

... it's a waste of money compared to better causes like ... FEEDING or MEDICINE ...

When the choice is cast as black-and-white as "Laptop or food/medicine?", I'd bet most people would choose the latter -- it's a no-brainer. The problem is that the problem isn't so simple and casting the problem to be so is somewhat disingenuous.

You have to remember that philanthropy is often done by people with passion. Nicholas Negroponte was the co-founder of the MIT Media Laboratory, so naturally he's passionate about computers. One thing about the nature of passion is that one who is passionate wants to instill the same passion in others. Negroponte has passion about computers (and money, which definitely helps), so let him express his philanthropy as he wants. So perhaps the question shouldn't be, "Why isn't Negroponte giving food and medicine?" but rather "Why isn't there some other rich philanthropist who is passionate about feeding kids and making sure they have decent medical care?" There's no shortage of rich men.

Also, let's face it: giving food and medicine (a) just isn't sexy to the press and so doesn't garner support easily and (b) giving food and medicine is a never-ending job. Unlike giving a kids a laptop, you have to feed them three times a day every day. Even the most passionate philanthropist would likely burn out.

Another thing you need to consider is the potential for kids to rise above their situation. Feeding kids just makes them not hungry; the results of giving kids access to the internet is unknown buy potentially unbounded.

Consider what was done in Born into Brothels: poor children of prostitutes were given cameras. Could the kids have used more/better food/medicine? Of course. But what resulted from the cameras was (a) art and, for a few children, (b) a way out of their bleak station in life from their art and notoriety is garnered. As useful as food and medicine might be, it offers no hope of escaping their bleak lives. Who knows what kids might accomplish with laptops? Wouldn't it be interesting to find out?

Re:Waits to be flamed

[jshriverWVU]

That has to be the best writeup I've ever seen considering the topic. It's definitely helped my view of the world and will make a nice reference next time this kind of topic comes about.

Guest I just never saw it from that angle before, and I agree.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[mrchaotica]

But at the same time I feel like it's a waste of money compared to better causes, like I dont know, FEEDING or MEDICINE for kids.

Why? All that would do is create an excess of useless (i.e., uneducated) people who would then just suck more and more welfare. That's a waste of money! It's much better to have educated people, who could actually figure out how to eventually support themselves, even if you end up with fewer of them because the rest starved.

Yes, I agree, this isn't the nicest way to look at it, but it is the most pragmatic.

Also, by the way, your whole argument is moot anyway because the OLPC project is focusing on "developing" countries -- those that are slightly beyond the "basic survival" phase of development. The children under consideration do have food, water, and shelter; just not cable TV and malls.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[mrchaotica]

When the choice is cast as black-and-white as "Laptop or food/medicine?", I'd bet most people would choose the latter -- it's a no-brainer.

Are you sure it's a no-brainer? After all, which is better: having to support a large population [effectively] permanently on welfare, or creating a small population that can support themselves?

While it might be morally distasteful, the pragmatist in me says that the latter situation is actually better!

Re:Waits to be flamed

[DragonWriter]

The OLPC concept is good, but seriously I think we have more pressuring issues to deal with.

Then deal with them. The OLPC project will continue without you, I'm sure.

Not everyone has to be involved in everything done by every private charity on Earth.

But at the same time I feel like it's a waste of money compared to better causes, like I dont know, FEEDING or MEDICINE for kids.

Please, feel free to give to organizations providing those, instead.

Granted I grew up poor, and I wish I had a laptop when I was in high school and younger would have been able to kick start my career even earlier. But even then if it came to me having a free laptop, or seeing the kid down the street who eats government peanut butter on bread (no jelly) every day and no medical insurance.

Yeah, I've been that kid eating the government food, in high school. I wouldn't have traded (manifestly, as I could have and didn't), the broken old PC I had or the brand new full retail boxed version of Turbo Pascal 5.5 Professional (when it was "the latest and greatest") someone bought for me to have a little more or slightly better for a while.

From a small thinking perspective this project is great, from the big picture it's just diverting funds that could have been better used.

I think you have that backwards. From a naive and shortsighted perspective, its diverting funds that could be better used. From a broader perspective, its lowering the cost of education in developing countries, reducing the pressure, in the long-run, for them to have to choose between basic education for the whole population and providing essential services to the worst-off populations. And most of the funds "diverted", either in private charity dollars that actually go to the OLPC project or government education expenditures on the project by the recipient countries, would not have gone to the "better" uses you suggest if they didn't go to OLPC, they'd go to other, perhaps less cost-effective, education programs in the recipient countries or to other programs that interest the kind of people who would be interested in the OLPC project in the case of the private donations of money, programming effort, etc., to the project.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[orasio]

Also, by the way, your whole argument is moot anyway because the OLPC project is focusing on "developing" countries -- those that are slightly beyond the "basic survival" phase of development. The children under consideration do have food, water, and shelter; just not cable TV and malls.

I am from Uruguay, the first OLPC country. They _do_ have access to cable TV (paid or unpaid) and malls, but the issue is that poor kids don't get the same opportunities in life that we get.
We have virtually universal alphabetization, but differences in education are huge, nonetheless.
Poor kids don't get to finish high school, and seldom get a college degree.
Public education is not bad, but middle class kids can buy books, get private teachers, have internet, and also get extra curricular activities.
This kind of thing can make it feasible (as in less hours -> cheaper) for public school teachers to help poor kids with their homework, for making school texts universal, and research material too.

I think this kind of thing is a cornerstone to giving them more fair opportunities to compete in the real world.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[suv4x4]

But at the same time I feel like it's a waste of money compared to better causes, like I dont know, FEEDING or MEDICINE for kids. Granted I grew up poor, and I wish I had a laptop when I was in high school and younger would have been able to kick start my career even earlier.

You know, growing up in this world isn't about being comfy, having everything given to you, or everything being absolutely fair. Those are concepts that don't exist.

"No pain no gain".

Truth is if developed countries just keep sending trucks of food and medicine in Africa (say), they'll just be more and more dependent on it, and "adapt" to it, versus seek to be standalone. I'm not saying OLPC will suddenly change all of that. But consider which is better:

growing old in your mom's basement and mom giving you food and medicine every day, mommy's great big boy

or

educating yourself and looking for a job, even at the cost of it being very hard for you at times

The chain has to break at some point. People will die, and some will survive. Those who survive will no longer need food and medicine be fed to them, and will possibly have some form of self-sustaining economics developed. It's cruel, but it's how we came to be in the first place.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[MagikSlinger]

But at the same time I feel like it's a waste of money compared to better causes, like I dont know, FEEDING or MEDICINE for kids. Granted I grew up poor, and I wish I had a laptop when I was in high school and younger would have been able to kick start my career even earlier. But even then if it came to me having a free laptop, or seeing the kid down the street who eats government peanut butter on bread (no jelly) every day and no medical insurance. I'd gladly give it up to feed him/her for a while.

I've grown up and don't flame people like this anymore. Because I realise jshriver is without a clue about the developing world. These arguments comes from ignorance about what life in the developing world is like. For starters, giving them aid may make you feel good, but it doesn't help the recipients stand on their own two feet which is what they really want to do. Are you aware sub-saharan Africa is the world's fastest growing cell phone market? 82 million subscribers and climbing.

Africa has mostly moved beyond the image of the starving, shivering child. There are a few areas like that, but <Lewis Black mode> f--k me, there's a @#$!-damned war going on there!</Lewis Black mode> Mostly, the developing world would like to start their own businesses, grow their own food and keep the money they make away from corrupt dictators. But well-meaning people keep interfering with their plans to do this, including ironically the World Bank and IMF (but I digress).

You want to help that child in Africa get a better home and school? Camapaign to end American subsidies for farming. That will do more to help them than giving them your crumbs from the table.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[Anonymous Coward]

When the choice is cast as black-and-white as "Laptop or food/medicine?", I'd bet most people would choose the latter -- it's a no-brainer. The problem is that the problem isn't so simple and casting the problem to be so is somewhat disingenuous.

The other problem is ignorance of poverty. Most people living in poverty are not worried about necessities, they just can't afford luxuries. People who live in shanty towns have cell phones because they are a cheap luxury that is very useful in daily life. Eventually computers will be seen in the same way.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[Warbothong]

You're exactly right, so get the hell hell off Slashdot and sell your computer to get some bread to give to these countries. And whilst you're at it, dismantle your house, since I'm sure the plumbing system would come in handy for an irrigation system and there are countless other things you could do. Everybody should give up any modern technology they have until everyone in the world has it. Otherwise how else will the world advance? Surely nothing to do with new technological advances helping those less fortunate people in the world, because banging stuff together in huts has much more potential than mass production in modern robot-filled factories with the output being flown by aeroplane to those that need it.

Or maybe you could stop flaming the efforts of people to make a difference in countries that could do with a boost. Yes there are many people out there who would be incredibly offended if their governments gave them a computer instead of some food, but guess what? They're not the governments who the OLPC project is targetting! They are targetting countries whith decent infrastructure, but where education could be given a boost. So instead of spending masses and masses of money on textbooks which are single-purpose, become obsolete, can be damaged, etc. how about making a laptop which can replace all of them, whilst costing about the same amount as one? Plus the fact that all of the collaboration and networking stuff in the laptops means that they let kids learn in places where there are no schools and are no teachers, since the current system of sit down, shut up and listen to the teacher doesn't really work without one.

As for the actual news story, so what? Intel screw the OLPC project by making a computer in the complete opposite way (instead of inventing new technologies to overcome limitations, they just rip any useful functionality out of an ordinary laptop until it costs $200), then use their financial might to sell it below cost, to the exact countries that the OLPC guys have negotiated with, where it is pretty much useless anyway (for the software it runs it is WAY underpowered, it is not sealed so it can't even run underwater and would clog in a desert (you wouldn't be scoffing if you only had 2 seasons, rainy and dry), it can only be charged from an electrical outlet (yeah, plenty of those is remote villages...), its Wifi can't mesh, meaning it needs an access point just for 2 of them sitting side by side to be able to talk, the battery only lasts 2 hours, the screen is unreadable in bright sunlight (ie. outside), the list goes on). They then join the OLPC board, but do nothing to halt this product they have made. So where is the news? Come back when the Classmate piece of crap has been scrapped, THEN at least Intel will at least be close to breaking even, since the fact they did it at all gives them -1000 points.

The capitalist idea of 'choice' does not apply in this situation. To someone with only a hammer, everything looks like a nail. In an area like this it is way way way better to stick to one open, changable design and improve any shortcomings over time, than it is to allow multiple efforts to compete over resources until neither of them have enough left to survive. For Intel that is the point, since they have a solid base to win a war of attrition. The fact that they are waging it completely without just cause against a charity which didn't ask for it makes me sick, and I would have no problem at all taking a dump in the mouth of whatever Intel suit came up with this sordid plan. That is, unless they're into that kind of stuff, in which case I'd settle for tattooing "DON'T TRUST ANYTHING I SAY" to their forehead.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[YetAnotherBob]

you'll probably get your wish. Flamers are rampant. I do however disagree with your premise.

Unfortunately, you can't actually eat money, or plastic, or semi-conductors, or even rocket fuel. To feed the kid down the street, you would be much better served by getting the corn used to make ethanol, and feed it to people instead.

Meanwhile, learn some old wisdom. "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." The end result of the programs started in the 1930's here in the US was to create a segment of the population that for generations believed that they had a right to income without work. As a solution to poverty, Welfare was a complete failure. Yes, it fed them, but so did what came before it. Welfare also destroyed a lot of families and ruined a lot of peoples chance for a better life.

Yes, we do need to feed hungry children. We also need to provide them with opportunities to stop being poor and hungry. You don't want to do that. You just seem to want to help a little, while at the same time destroying any chance they have to better themselves. OLPC is an effort to provide a way out of hopelessness. It may not work, but if we don't try many different things then nothing will really change.

OLPC is just one thing to try. We need to do several things and see what works. Why do you want to stop that? Going to bed hungry is a tragedy. Condemning generations to the same fate is worse.

I sincerely hope I have misunderstood you.

Re:Waits to be flamed

[Anonymous Coward]

absolutely. the internet can be the text book. text books are now one of the biggest rip offs there is. MIT is putting much of their info on the internet. geometry, other subjects should really be on the net. then the teacher can pick and choose for each class. why have one size fits all?

let teacheres collaborate on hand-outs, wiki's. then, text book costs are greatly diminished, more money for laptops to learn on for the kids.

this thread reminds me of the hudsucker proxy "you know, for the kids".

-Thufir

Re:Waits to be flamed

[jshriverWVU]

I agree with your statement. That's why I said I think what OLPC is doing a great job at what it was designed to do. We should be trying to feed children before giving them a laptop when they can't even afford electricity to power it. But your suggestion is also very true.

We need to have both systems. One that can help people, then charities like OLPC to help them break out of their social bubble and hopefully better their position in life.

Where I think welfare failed is because it did promote income without labor. What we need is welfare to act as a safety net for people during bad times, but not as a catch all for life. We should have bundled training and some kind of way to help people better themselves so they wont *need* to be on welfare. That's where OLPC kicks in it seems. If gives children and opportunity go break that barrier.

Re:OLPC is a project - Classmate is a device...

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I think the problem is the way Intel handled this. Initially, rather than try to work with the project, they disparaged it time and again. Now that they have a product worth putting in these laptops they are all smiles and roses. It's pretty disgusting behavior from a corporate behemoth...

Good point. I hope OLPC is designed on education

[bADlOGIN]

Your example is an all too classic The problem with applying "business tools"
to education. My wife is a high school English teacher. Do you know how well an
outlook calendar "maps" onto a class schedule? It doesn't. However, that doesn't
stop the all too stupid administration from expecting teachers to use it because it's
"a calendaring tool we have already paid for".

The great potential about the OLPC Linux distribution is that only applications
relevant to education need be written, packaged, and included. There's no 3rd party
trying to tell/sell applications that don't work for education. At least, that's
my hope.

In the grad scheme of things, I fear you may be right. Perhaps of the XO Linux
distribution includes a PowerPoint knock-off and no math plotting packages it will level
the global playing field down to one stupid common denominator...

OT: housing in Sumatra

[mrchaotica]

It's not unlike the good intentions that led to rebuilding of "better" houses in Sumatra for instance after the great Tsunami. Modern, western style housing just doesn't make sense there. It uses and demands much more freshwater than traditional homes and no-one can afford to run them. As a result the population has typically abandoned the new homes, which remain unoccupied, in favour of traditional homes.

How so? In particular, how exactly do Western-style homes require more fresh water?

Re:OT: housing in Sumatra

[going_the_2Rpi_way]

I know it's off-topic (sorry), but (s)he asked, so here goes....

For starters, you're talking about houses that are built on the assumption of a centralized water supply system, which doesn't currently exist to any meaningful degree. The same can also be said for the new schools and nurseries. In addition to assuming water will be supplied, the builders assume an availability and usage rate of water that while reasonable in North America or Europe for instance (and we use LOTS of water, btw) is simply unrealistic and prohibitively expensive to run -- it becomes a burden. It's like driving a SUV when you can only afford gas for a moped.

It's not a simple issue, but to provide some context even a family that manages freshwater sparingly (saltwater for bathing, etc) will spend about 30% of their household income on water. Aside from the potential losses in the house itself (from e.g. higher flow rates than would otherwise be used), the very nature of centralized systems (which are typically leaky and lossy even in modern North American and European cities) raises the expense for a user, even before factoring in excessively leaky pipes and the repercussions from a lack of metering.

If you're interested/curious about other aspects, let me know and we can talk more about it in a more appropriate forum.

Re:OT: housing in Sumatra

[mrchaotica]

...(s)he asked...

Hint: My screen name is Mr. Chaotica. ; )

In addition to assuming water will be supplied, the builders assume an availability and usage rate of water...

What, you mean in the specific fixtures used and the design of kitchens and bathrooms? Even so, why should having unusable kitchens and bathrooms cause abandonment of the entire house? All they'd have to do is shut off the main valve and cap the drains (to avoid unpleasant sewer gases) and it'd be fine. The result -- having to carry in all their water -- would (presumably) be the same as what they'd have otherwise anyway.

Re:OLPC is a project - Classmate is a device...

[jabuzz]

I don't see a thing in that about power consumption. Given that the Geode LX that OLPC are using consumes a mere 0.5W I very much doubt that Intel will match this.

Re:NPR revisits a school with laptops (grade 7 &am

[Aliriza]

This laptops will only be a step to expensive ones , I am sure we'll continue to hear this story in the next 10 years.

Bill Gates?

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

Why isn't there some other rich philanthropist who is passionate about feeding kids and making sure they have decent medical care?

I think you said Bill Ga&%@***NOTHING TO SEE HERE - MOVE ALONG - SLASHDOT MINISTRY OF TRUTH***

quickly traded

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm betting that any computer that makes it to the hands of a needy family will quickly trade it off for a weeks worth of food and they'll end up back in the US anyway.

Re:OLPC is a project - Classmate is a device...

[Mokurai]

Silverthorne is described as running at 5W or more, while the Geode LX runs at less than 2W average for most applications when correctly using suspend/resume. The Geode should remain the choice in places where regular power is lacking. Although OLPC availability should speed up access to electrical power in many areas, on the Articulate Voting Populations principle.

(Disclosure: I worked on Geode documentation for National Semiconductor in 2000. AMD has the descendants of my documents online.)

Sing the Open Firmware Song!

[SimHacker]

Open Firmware is the only firmware standard in existence to have its own song. Download or listen to Mitch Bradley singing the Open Firmware Song (278k).

-Don

monopoly

[WingedEarth]

Doesn't Intel now have, what Teddy Roosevelt used to call, a "monopoly"? Isn't there a law against that? Shouldn't a monopoly be broken up by the government? Don't laugh, there was once a time when Americans elected leaders who actually defended us against the tyranny of capital.

Re:monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

Methinks you confuse Intel with Microsoft

Re:monopoly

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't Intel now have, what Teddy Roosevelt used to call, a "monopoly"? Isn't there a law against that? Shouldn't a monopoly be broken up by the government? Don't laugh, there was once a time when Americans elected leaders who actually defended us against the tyranny of capital.

Monopolies are not illegal anti-competitive practices are. When a company is considered a monopoly then they are under greater scrutiny and sometimes otherwise legal practices (eg product bundling) may be considered illegal on the basis it's anticompetitive.

Re:monopoly

[elrous0]

AMD would beg to differ.

Old days were better

[bussdriver]

Educational software and hardware in the 80s and then slowly fading in the 90s were far better than today.

Not only are the same "old school" goals at work on OLPC but one of the members, Seymour Papert is involved with OLPC. He promoted constructionist learning which was the concept behind LOGO and LEGO/LOGO (see "Mindstorms") and influenced intelligently designed software of that time.

Number Munchers and Oregon Trail were among a long list of wonderful MECC software designed BY EDUCATORS for the Minnesota school system (best school system in the nation back then. Oh, St.Paul schools was heavily involved in developing lego/logo I know the people who did it, even met Papert a few times.) In the 90s MECC was destroyed by our "free market" governor who privatized it; thus killing off the last source for truly educational software. (LOGO died slowly, even MN schools didn't push it as much without the political support to counter the teacher resistance; which was partially caused by the increasing demands for standardized teaching/testing etc.)

HyperCard/HyperStudio died with the hype of the web. The web is better with the exception of browser bugs and the increased complexity. HyperCard was not created for education but was so well made it fit in quite well; while HyperStudio made HyperCard for education.

Part of the problem is that back then, there were smart people trying to teach kids how to THINK and that is "unamerican" now. Standardized testing becomes a method of control to prevent alternative education methods; I'm not opposed to it used in moderation. Here in MN the testing discourage THINKING and CREATIVITY by making the test the only concern and getting better stats each year as if it was a public traded corporation.

Kids now only learn to use MS Office software because that is what is in industry and to research thru google, wikipedia, and echeat.com.

Its about raising consumers who "covet thy neighbor's property."

I have a very good feeling about this....

[Joce640k]

If Intel can get their CPUs on board OLPC then maybe they'll stop pushing their Windows-based alternative so hard and poor kids might get the machine/OS they need rather than the bastard offspring of a mega-corporation.

Intel or no Intel

[Bombula]

As long as kids around the world are dying from diarrhea because they don't have running water or electricity, this is still a dumb idea. And speaking of no electricity, I take it these laptops are either solar or bicycle powered?

Re:Intel or no Intel

[Bombula]

Mod my comment flamebait if you like. It's true nonetheless. If you don't agree, try making a rational argument to the contrary instead of just using your mod points to mark comments down that you disagree with.

Re:Intel or no Intel

[Nazlfrag]

Look, it was flamebait, if you can't see why I'll explain. Note, I didn't mod you, but here's how I saw your comment.

Firstly, this project has nothing to do with water supplies or diarrhea. The fact it doesn't save children from these horrors has nothing to do at all with the design or intent of the OLPC. You created what is known as a strawman argument, arguing that the OLPC is useless because it doesn't do something it was never intended to do. Strawmen arguments are logically flawed reasoning and as such are often used as flamebait.

Your second point shows you are fundamentally ignorant of the OLPC and its aims, which doesn't really help your stance at all. If it was a genuine question, it was worded in a rather terse and abrasive manner, again it read like a flame. The answer is of course yes, they are well aware that electricity supplies in 3rd world countries are sporadic and sparse, as anyone spending a little time thinking about this project would gather.

If you had a genuine question, perhaps just ask it instead of trying to insult that which you don't understand.

Re:Intel or no Intel

[hkmarks]

Pull-cord, I believe.

Anyway, the of this is really to further education and improve local economies over the long term. There are other projects to help kids who are starving... this one is focused on the far greater number of families who are surviving, but can't afford decent education. In many countries, kids have to pay to go to school, and many families can't afford it. The kids end up helping the family farm or taking menial jobs, maybe, but with a better education they could have started businesses or gotten better jobs. Doctors (you know, the people who help when kids are dying of diarrhea) are in short supply almost everywhere, and where are they supposed to come from? Better education = economic growth.

OLPC is supposed to replace textbooks and notebooks and make education cheaper and more accessible. Personally, I don't know... in those countries where basic education isn't free, the governments paying for it might do better by paying tuitions.

Re:Intel or no Intel

[Bombula]

I'll just respond to say that mine was not a strawman argument. I've lived in developing countries for nearly two decades. The need for laptops is not just slightly but grotesquely outweighed by the need for more urgent measures of socioeconomic redress, of which safe drinking water and reliable electricity are merely the tip of the iceberg. The notion that delivering laptop computers to millions of children in the developing world is somehow a constructive use of time, energy and financial resources given - just for example - the genocide that is occurring in Darfur and the more than one million unlawfully displaced refugees currently on the edge of starvation in Uganda, is catastrophically naive and speaks to the appalling ignorance and cultural ethnocentricity of this project's primary actors. What it shows is that we have a very serious problem in how the west - and America in particular - views the rest of the world through the lens of its own myopic concerns.

Re:Intel or no Intel

[Anonymous Coward]

>The need for laptops is not just slightly but grotesquely outweighed by the need for more urgent measures of socioeconomic redress, of which safe drinking water and reliable electricity are merely the tip of the iceberg.

So, why don't you sell your computer and use the money to help?

Re:Intel or no Intel

[leonem]

I believe the OLPC project is not aimed at countries/children who are starving. It is aimed at (rural?) communities that are largely self-sufficient, but lack the excess resources required to drastically improve their lot beyond its current level. In many of these places children already go to school. The idea is to reduce the cost of one of the most versatile resources humanity has created, and hopefully enable an acceleration of socio-economic development.

Some of these places may well be at risk from famine, but history has shown that simply rescuing countries from such disasters when they occur, while necessary and highly laudable, is insufficient in itself to help progress, and prevent their reoccurrence.

You're correct that there appear to be ways the money could be better spent, but bear in mind that another aim of the project is to have the machines built locally. This means two things: 1) there are wider economic benefits which will be driven by local needs (contrast this with the all-too-common misapplication of external aid); and 2) there isn't actually that much money behind this project, in the grand scheme of things--I think the staff is less than 20--so suggesting that the money is being misspent is something of a straw-man, even if unintentional.

For the Children

[DJ_Maiko]

I'm glad that cooler heads prevailed & thought about the children- since this is what the whole idea behind OLPC is about (& not some bickering about who should do what). Having this marriage benefits everyone- the kids win now & our world wins in the future. Additionally, the technology & peripherals used in these laptops will be deployed commercially so we'll all win in the near future (since the technology used is miles ahead of what current laptops have the capacity to do- full weather-proof laptops, screens that aren't affected by sunlight at all & better wifi antennas, etc.).

Re:We should fight this!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah? Wait till they start the program One Lap Dance per Parent!

No comment...

[lukisi]

Microsoft has been working to get Windows to run on XOs. But it still doesn't appear that will be ready soon, according to Will Poole, who heads Microsoft's emerging-markets group. The main reason is that it is hard to tweak Windows so it can interact with the nonstandard things... ... for them too!!!
Learn the lesson. Use free software, dude!