New and Improved Deadly Snail Venom

SoyChemist writes "In 2004, the FDA approved the cone snail venom ziconotide (Prialt) for the treatment of chronic pain. It is only used for severe cases because it must be injected directly into the spinal column. This month, researchers from the University of Utah have reported the discovery of a new snail venom with a completely different amino acid sequence. Because it very selectively attaches to and blocks nerve signals by binding to a particular type of acetylcholine receptor without causing any collateral damage, the newly discovered venom could also become a fantastic medical tool."

Comments

Cone snails

[BWJones]

You really should see these snails hunt and eat fish .

Some years ago, I spent a bit of time in Toto Olivera's lab (the guy who pioneered all of the conotoxin research) and it was amazing to watch these snails follow, track and eventually harpoon and eat fish in the aquarium. It turns out that the poison these snails use is a complex cocktail of peptides and small molecules that act on a variety of protein channels with implications for everything from the pain mentioned in the article to anesthesia to anti-convulsants.

Re:Cone snails

[Funkcikle]

Say no more than this.

Re:Cone snails

[makuabob]

You really should see these snails hunt and eat fish.

Yes, indeed! I lived in Hawaii for several years, was a SCUBA-diving shell collector and kept two aquaria--one with Textile cones (a molluscivore, i.e., eats other snails) and one with Striated cones (a piscivore). (Had to keep 'em apart, for obvious reasons.)

One Striated cone in my aquarium eventually learned that it was in a closed area. Normally, these fish-killers 'spear' their food and hold on to the barbed, radular tooth (through which the vemon is injected) until the fish is paralyzed (two or three seconds), then draw the prey into their extended, enveloping stomach. After that, they dig into the sand and digest for a couple of weeks; if they're lucky, they don't get eaten in turn by an Eagle Ray,... or one of those Textile cones mentioned above.

So, anyway, this one Striated cone quit holding onto the 'spear' once it hit the fish and, instead, would stroll around the aquarium until it found its meal! (In an embarassing faux pas, it once shot a dart through its own siphon and spent a couple of minutes trying to eat itself !)

Be glad these things aren't crawling around your garden; one shot from these could be your last! They are not too shy to defend themselves. Every year there are fatalities in the topical islands where some of the most venomous and aggressive varieties live.

Mixed news

[also-rr]

The bad news, Mr Jones, is that you are suffering from chronic pain.

The good news is that we are going to stick a six inch needle into your spine.

Re:Mixed news

[LiquidCoooled]

Is it good or bad news for the guinea pig with chronic pain tasked with licking snails?

Re:Mixed news

[stox]

Actually the needle is pretty small. The bad news is that you need an implanted pump to dose you on a regular basis. However, to those suffering from chronic extreme pain, a 12 foot needle would not represent too much of a hurdle in order to get their lives back.

Re:Mixed news

[afidel]

You ain't kidding about that. My brother was in an auto accident some years back at highway speed (rear ended by an idiot while his exit ramp was backed up onto the highway) and since then he's been in extreme chronic pain. He's already gone through two potentially life ending back surgeries (any time you are working within millimeters of the spine it's a big deal) and had his liver so messed up by oxycottin and all the other meds he's on that he had to go on a low fat vegetarian diet or risk dying for liver failure. I can guarantee you that any product or procedure that could actually eliminate his pain and had a fairly low risk of death would be greatly appreciated by him, his employer, and everyone who knows and cares about him.

Works faster than nerves conduct?

[CRCulver]

Something like 15 years ago I read a Michael Crichton novel (I suspect it was Sphere ) where a character claimed that the chemical reactions of cone snail venom "works faster than nerve conduction velocity", meaning that one is dead before one even feels the sting. Is there truth to this, or is it totally false?

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[iamdrscience]

Everything Michael Crichton writes is absolutely true. Don't believe me? Come over and I'll let you go for a ride on my pet dinosaurs.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[fishthegeek]

That was Jurassic Park.

[about the poison on the darts in their guns]
Eddie Carr: The most powerful neurotoxin in the world. It works faster than the nerve conduction velocity, which means the animal's down before it actually feels the - P! - prick of the dart.
Dr. Ian Malcolm: Is there an antidote?
Eddie Carr: What, like if you shot yourself in the foot? Don't do that, you would be dead before you even knew you had an accident.

According to this article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcg i?artid=25694 the effect of the venom is merely "near instantaneous" as opposed to the faster claim of Eddie Carr.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[CRCulver]

Thanks, that was something I was wondering about for a long time.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[BlueParrot]

According to Wikipedia the effect varies a lot depending on the particular species and need not be fatal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_snail#Danger_to_ humans

Anyway, I find it unlikely that a neurotoxin would kill before you can feel it seeing that the cause of death is usually failure of the respiratory system or cardiac arrest. So basically, depending on the dose it might hurt about as much as being chocked to death or having a fatal heart attack. For obvious reasons it is hard to determine how much a fatal heart attack would hurt...

Oh, and there is no antidote.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[budgenator]

That can't be true because the neuro-toxins work by blocking receptor sites, which are stimulate by chemicals released by nerve conduction. It's plausible that the toxins have an anesthetic effect, so you might not feel the injury before death occurred, I imagine that that would be very advantageous to a snail hunting fish, having it's prey bolt could easily mean dinner got a way and something else is feasting on its kill.

Another consideration is complex organisms don't die evenly it's not like turning off a light switch, all or nothing, it's a process that can take a while even cyanide take a few minutes to poison all of the cells. Frequently what happen is rapid bodily paralysis, while the brain slowly asphyxiates, a rather nasty way to die.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[Ihlosi]

Is there truth to this, or is it totally false?

There is some truth to this. In many cases, victims of these snails don't realize that they've been stung. However, this has nothing to do with the poison, but with the injury being really minor.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[RAMMS EIN]

``According to this article http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcg i?artid=25694 the effect of the venom is merely "near instantaneous" as opposed to the faster claim of Eddie Carr.''

Well, it could still be faster than a _snail's_ nerve conduction.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[ArghBlarg]

So why is that fish struggling and breathing so hard while it's being swallowed whole? Yeah right, it was already dead. I don't think so.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[simpsone]

I always hated that part. That was from the second or third book, right? Where they go to an island for the sole purpose of finding those dinosaurs and the only weapons the bring with them are dart guns. Are you kidding me? Frickin' dart guns.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[TheLink]

"Another consideration is complex organisms don't die evenly it's not like turning off a light switch, all or nothing,"

What you need is turning _on_ a light switch of a very very very bright light.

You @ ground zero + nuke = die very evenly.

You might leave a shadow mark on some rock...

The dying process should be about as painless as it gets.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[budgenator]

not really at ground-zero your body presents a smaller cross-section for radiation absorbance in IR, gamma and neutrons, not to mention that the blast is deflected by the ground. Your much more likely to survive at ground-zero than you are a 1/4 mile from ground-zero, there are Japanese that survived at ground-zero.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[adona1]

Actually, it was the Lost World. In Jurassic Park they just used tranquillizer guns.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[Anonymous Coward]

OK. You + close + sufficiently large nuke.

Re:Works faster than nerves conduct?

[JDevers]

Yea, seriously...you would think a couple .50 caliber machine guns might have been a good idea, oh and some actual weaponry for those choppers too. Oh well, it's not called a plot device for nothing.

Deadly?

[PPH]

I'll bet they can't beat sharks with lasers.

licking snails instead of toads

[bl8n8r]

for medicinal purposes of course.

Caution

[Anonymous Coward]

You gotta love the fortune at the bottom of the page:

"Caution: Keep out of reach of children."

Deadly ?

[Timesprout]

I'd like to see the snail that could chase me down to inject me.

Re:Deadly ?

[oliphaunt]

Yeah, but they don't have to chase you if you step on one by accident.

Re:Deadly ?

[someone1234]

They will crawl into your mouth while you are snoring.

Re:Deadly ?

[geminidomino]

I M in ur ear, layin mah eggs.
--LOLSpider

Re:Deadly ?

[Walruzoar]

There was once a snail who was sick and tired of his reputation for being so slow.
He decided to get some fast wheels to make up the difference. After shopping around a while, he decided that the Datson 240-Z was the car to get. So the snail goes to the nearest Datsun dealer and says he wants to buy the 240-Z, but he wants it repainted "240-S".

The dealer asks, "Why 'S'?"

The snail replies, "'S' stands for snail. I want everybody who sees me roaring past to know who's driving."

Well, the dealer doesn't want to lose the unique opportunity to sell a car to a snail, so he agrees to have the car repainted for a small fee.

The snail gets his new car and spent the rest of his days roaring happily down the highway at top speed. And whenever anyone would see him zooming by, they'd say "Wow! Look at that S-car go!"

PS - don't blame me, it was these guys: http://www.ahajokes.com/sample.html.

Nature Vs Lab

[teebob21]

I'm no bleeding-heart treehugger, but these recent advances in medicine using biological compounds found in snails, non-engineered bacteria and goat milk (okay, i made the last one up) are really impressive. My pharmacological background is limited, but I imagine that side effects with naturally created drugs are minimized compared to those synthesized in a lab. For example, the same compounds in aspirin that relieve headaches are also found in willow bark, something known to pre-industrial cultures.

The sheer amount of medicine-man knowledge that has been lost by the modernization of medicine is incredible. Nowadays, we pop a pill for what ails us, not knowing what is really in it. Some cultures today still value the beneficial effects of a proper herbal tea, such as the Chinese. Of course, their insistence that ground rhino horn will bring back a man's impotent tallywhacker....the jury's still out.

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[digitalhermit]

Dude, have you ever tried to take down a rhino? Getting rhino horn is like showing off a SuperBowl ring.

"Look, Zhang, I got some rhino horn here."

"Really Kwan?!? How ever did you get it?"

"It was hard work but I am manly."

"Ooooooohhhhh!"

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[m50d]

"Of course, their insistence that ground rhino horn will bring back a man's impotent tallywhacker....the jury's still out."

No, the jury's not in any sense out. It doesn't work. And therein lies the problem with traditional medical "knowledge" - for every valid remedy there are four which are pure codswallop.

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[icepick72]

but I imagine that side effects with naturally created drugs are minimized compared to those synthesized in a lab.

But where does the knowledge come from for the synthesis in the lab? I expect the knowledge is just circulating in smaller pharmaceutical circles now instead of in the general public. The general public no longer needs the knowledge if it's all available off the shelf and more potent.

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[dakameleon]

well if you think about it, sure, the "traditional" or "natural" medicine does have some that work - but it's like using a sledgehammer to drive a nail in - it'll work, but you don't need something that wide-ranging, like all of the stuff in the "natural" remedy. On the other hand, the "synthetic" ones are usually targeted to have maximum effect for minimum size.

to put it succinctly, I'd rather pop an asprin than swallow a pound of boiled willow bark :P

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[It'sYerMam]

"My pharmacological background is limited, but I imagine that side effects with naturally created drugs are minimized compared to those synthesized in a lab."

I'm afraid you imagine wrong, at least in a theoretical sense. Side effects (and primary effects) are determined solely by the interaction of the chemical(s) with the human body, and there's no overarching difference between synthetic and naturally occurring chemicals - when you get down to it, it's all just a bunch of quarks and electrons. It tends to be possible to create more complex compounds naturally, however. So when we manufacture penicillin, we get some mould to secrete the basic ingredient, then substitute on different chemical groups to obtain different effects in the body - to produce a stronger, faster acting compound, with fewer or lesser side effects - hopefully. When it comes down to it though, lead compounds for drugs aren't really designed, they're discovered. Most of those compounds - like those that spawned aspirin, paracetamol, penicillin and the like - are naturally occurring. I suppose a few must have been discovered in synthetic compounds, but not many. The reason being that natural compounds, due to the way they are produced, can be much more complex. Drugs can have many chiral centres, and in classic syntheses, you'd obtain a mixture of all the different possible isomers - usually only one works. When an enzyme produces the feedstock, the compound is more likely to be a pure, or purer mixture, since the shape of the enzyme tends only to catalyse the production of one isomer. This restricts synthetic medicines to much simpler molecules until our synthetic procedures improve (which they are doing - designer molecules are becoming possible.) Even then, however, we have some way before we look at the shape of receptor sites and try and devise molecules to fit them. We are still at the stage where we notice a compound has a physiological effect, and then start looking closer.

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[TapeCutter]

I agree, asprin is also in apples but you would have to eat a shitload to get 3 tablets worth. It's much more convienient and cost effective to extract the SAME STUFF from coal and eat apples for other reasons. Just because our ancestors had no other choice than to chew on bark doesn't mean we sholud reject forms of pain relief that are demonstratably more effective.

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[TheLink]

And sometimes the main reason a synthetic is used is because it can be patented, not because it's better :).

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[penguin king]

I think you'll find that if you swallow that willow bark you may get some of the nice effects of aspirin but you'll also find you get some nasty gastric bleeds. Salicylic acid (the active components of willow bark) causes these bleeds. There is a reason your lovely aspirin is acetyl salicylic acid. I think you'll find that the "medicine-man knowledge" you talk of has not been completely lost. In fact there are whole university departments who find these remedies, purify the active components and then improve them to remove side effects. In general your synthetic pharmaceutical has FEWER side effects that a herbal remedy purely because it'd never make it past the FDA for general usage if it had heaps of side effects. If you're "popping a pill" not knowing what is in it, I would suggest you find out. The information is out there, whilst most of it means nothing you the layman, you can trust that the FDA has approved all pharmaceuticals (or the relevent agency for your country), that being said most herbal remedies need pass no such approval processes (depending on where you are).

Re:Nature Vs Lab

[LordAbraxsis]

If you chased down a multi-ton rhino on foot, then killed it with a wooden spear, just to grind up it's horn ... you'd get wood too.

All Ha-Ha aside, I agree with you some. While I'm currently an artist for a toy company, my education is in the Social Sciences, having received a Masters in both Psychology and Sociology. While sometimes people stumbled upon solid science (ie. aspirin) that works, I think many of the so called "folk cures" call upon the placebo effect more so than a solid scientific basis. If we take the erectile dysfunction as an example, we know that many cases of ED are psychologically based, and not physical. If the patient truly believes that the medicine man could cure him with rhino horn, dried deer penis, cobra venom, or what have you ... then that belief would allow him to "rise to the occasion." Although I will grant that, naturally, being a psychologist at heart I am still a firm believer that our greatest medical tool is "mind over matter."

Maybe they can use a nictine derivative for this?

[macraig]

Since last week it was reported that nicotine derivatives targeting acetylcholine receptors in the brain was the latest pharmaceutical fad, perhaps they can kill two birdies with the same stone?

(Yes, I'm being sarcastic and dismissive.)

Snails on a Plane!!

[Dude163299]

Snails on a Plane!!

I think I just killed this. *ducks*

ACH Receptor blockers have a lot of potentials

[einhverfr]

as antitoxins as well.

The most famous ACH receptor blocker is atropine (a poison itself derived originally from Atropa belladonna). This particular characteristic of atropine is why it is used to treat poisoning of several classes of poisons including Cholinesterase inhibitors (which include all current forms of chemical weapon nerve agents and a number of pesticides as well), muscarine (such as from certain forms of mushroom poisoning, f. ex. aminita muscaria) and the like.

Of course anything that touches the ACH cycle in the nerve is likely to be potentially deadly...

petsmart

[delvsional]

can i buy one of these at petsmart? I know some people that will need to pet it...

I would like to try this.

[pair-a-noyd]

I live in constant, extreme pain 24 hours a day from a broken spine.
The break was repaired by spinal fusion and titanium hardware but I got ZERO pain relief from the surgery.
If anyone else had to live with the pain I live with, they would commit suicide before the end of the first day.

My surgeon told me to "just get over it".. I'm now at the point that I would gladly allow a doctor to severe the nerves so that I would lose all feeling from my neck down. Even if it left me paralyzed it would be worth it, just to stop hurting.
My problem is is that I can't work, don't have insurance, income, or anything else.
I don't qualify for assistance because I was self employed for too many years.

If some doctor would like to try this snail stuff out on me, I volunteer. I can't tolerate the pain anymore.

Re:I would like to try this.

[Anonymous Coward]

Ask your doctor about spinal cord stimulators which are implants for chronic pain.

Re:I would like to try this.

[Anonymous Coward]

My brother-in-law had the same thing for nearly seven years, he had fusion on his back after a car fell on him at work and was in constant pain. Turned out one of the screws was irritating his siatic nerve. He still has pain but it is not constant and he is able to work, I hope you find similar relief and that the politcians in your country will realise that universal health care is not a party political issue (assuming your from the US).

Uncyclopedia.org

[jagdish]

"Snail! It's a snail! Ooh, it's a snail!"
-Badger badger badger on Snails

when will they start finding the cause

[qwan]

Another dangerous way to "kill the pain" rather than "kill the cause". Every pain has a cause but todays medicine will rather "cure" you of your pain than fine the cause and tell you what to do. Toxin accumalation is one of the major reason or "unknown" back/spinal pain. If you just get rid of the toxins your backache is gone. Happened to 2 of my friends who had backache for years. They were both on drugs and had to even take injections. One went to an ayurvedic doctor and he told him to have some grass(the same grass you see your dog munching on when he has a stomach ache;that is if you live in green areas) and his pain dissappeared in a week. The other guy went for an ayurvedic massage and his pain went of in a month. He had done physiotherapy earlier but got only temporary relief. This ayurvedic massage was less of a massage but more of rubbing your lymph nodes and releasing accumalated toxins. Well i read a comment about a person in an accident in such cases the cause is very difficult and these drugs might be neccesary till the cause is found. But never stop searching for the cause get MRI's and Catscans there could be a nerve getting pressed and get it operated.

What kind of weapon is that?

[Anonymous Coward]

What use is a venom that makes your victim feel better?

"Yeah, I just couldn't keep running any longer. I staggered and fell to the ground and in seconds the snail was upon me. One quick poke with its stinger and suddenly... I felt great! I was back on my feet and hauling ass in no time. Thanks, snail venom!"

Ducks on a Plane!!

[HiggsBison]

Ducks on a Plane!! *snails*