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Internet Phone Start-up Goes Belly-Up

westlake writes "The New York Times has a short piece on the failure of SunRocket, the second-largest internet phone service after Vonage, with 200,000 customers. Start-ups like SunRocket are under enormous pressure from the telcos and cable, which have marketing muscle and can bundle VoIP with Internet, TV, home security services, and so on. The start-up has only one product, and since they don't own the lines, they can't control the quality of service. Attracting subscribers can put a start-up deep into the red. Vonage added 166,000 subscribers in the first quarter of 2007, but lost $77 million."

17 of 184 comments (clear)

  1. Probably going to Vonage? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm guessing the SunRocket customers will be moved to Vonage.

    I wouldn't worry about Vonage so much. They have 2.4 million subscribers already. Plus, it's not as if the cable company or telcos offering VOIP service have that much more control over the quality of their service either. They're still stuck with the same problems everyone else is in regard to Internet traffic.

    For not having control over their traffic, I've been using Vonage for almost 3 years now over Comcast in Michigan and now Bright House Networks' Road Runner service in the Tampa Bay area and I have to say, the quality of service has never sucked so long as my Internet connection is working right.

    1. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by Shakrai · · Score: 3, Informative

      Plus, it's not as if the cable company or telcos offering VOIP service have that much more control over the quality of their service either. They're still stuck with the same problems everyone else is in regard to Internet traffic.

      They aren't stuck with any of the same problems if the traffic never leaves their own network. The cable outfit's VoIP packets may never leave the cable network itself, if they designed it so the VoIP->PSTN switch-over happens before their network edge. Ditto for the telcos. And quite a few of the telcos (Verizon and AT&T come to mind) are Tier 1 providers in their own right -- and could easily have end-to-end QoS for their own VoIP traffic.

      Note: I'm not defending them or advocating for their service over Vonage or anybody else. Just pointing out the obvious. And for what it's worth, using T-Mo's @Home service (which isn't strictly VoIP, it's closer to GSM over IP), I haven't had any problems with my internet connection.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    2. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      back to having a cell phone as my primary line (which is also not from Verizon or AT&T).

      Look at T-Mobile's HotSpot @ Home service. It's basically GSM over IP (voice, data, SMS, etc), with the added advantage that you can do seemless handoffs between IP and GSM, i.e: start a call at home, walk out the door and it switches to GSM. I'm loving it. $39.99 for 1,000 cellular minutes (with nights & weekends), + $9.99 for the HotSpot add-on. I basically have unlimited calls. Plus I can use wi-fi in any area where there isn't a good GSM signal.

      T-Mobile doesn't have landline business in the United States so they don't have any reason to undercut their own offerings to keep a dying landline industry alive. And the best part is not giving your money to AT&T or Verizon.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    3. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by chill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Does it come with a get-out-of-jail free card?

      Does it automatically pick up any open hotspot, or do they have to be pre-configured?

      --
      Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
    4. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by superbus1929 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Key words: as long as the connection is working.

      I had a three day - THREE DAY - outage at my house, which took out my internet, TV, you name it. Therefore, since I'm a SunRocket customer (:'(), that took out my phone, too. Even better: my house is in a nice little recessed valley, which doesn't get good cell reception. Therefore, to call tech support, I would have to walk up the road about a quarter mile, and get one bar worth of reception.

      For a day and a half, this was the conversation:

      "Hello, yes, we're completely out here..."
      "OK! What exactly is out?"
      "My internet is out"
      "OK..."
      "And my Cable is out"
      "OK..."
      *talk a little longer. She asks for a phone number; I give her my cell, and instructions to leave a message if they get my VM, since I'm out of reception range*
      "Do you have a home phone number?"
      "Yes, but it's out too, thanks to the internet being out"
      "Do you have our Voice Over IP service?"
      "No, I use SunRocket"
      "Well, we don't do support for SunRocket, you will need to contact their tech support"
      "No, lady, I know you don't support SunRocket, but my internet and cable are out!"
      "You will need to contact SunRocket support"
      "No, this has nothing to do with Su--"
      "Thank you for calling Comcast! *CLICK*"

      After many call-backs and attempts to get her and the next three techs fired, I FINALLY - after three days - got someone out to the house, who explained why everything died: We were the victims of the most amateur attempt at stealing cable ever. It was laughable; shredded cable where he tried to put the connector on, cut wire everywhere, he eventually had the cable un-sheathed, and tied in together in a knot.

      But it took three days to get a tech, partly because it was a weekend, and partly because of SunRocket, and them absolutely refusing to help me because I DARED to have an internet service that Comcast didn't expressly approve.

      If anything did in my VoIP provider, it was this bullshit. And that leaves me with very unattractive options: Go to Vonage (who have their own problems), go back to AT+T land line, or go with Comcast's VoIP (a company who I'd dump completely if I had that option).

      --
      Let's stop dilly-dallying and just change "-1: Overrated" to "-1: Disagree" or "-1: Doesn't Subscribe to Groupthink".
    5. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by Shakrai · · Score: 4, Informative

      Does it automatically pick up any open hotspot, or do they have to be pre-configured?

      It won't automatically connect to an open one unless you add it to the list of saved networks. You can use any open hotspot with a DHCP server though.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    6. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 3, Informative

      Can any company sustain losing $77 million per quarter indefinitely? I'm not trolling, but seriously asking becasue I was considering moving to Vonage before reading this.


      Actually, according to TFA, it was $73 million, but what's $4 million between friends? ;)

      And the answer is obviously "no." But, the real question is will the company continuously sustain losses in the millions? And the answer again, is "no." That's because the ratio of their net losses to total revenue dropped last year. It was 0.89 in 2004, 0.98 in 2005, but last year it dropped 0.52. See for yourself. It means that they've been losing less money. (Comparing the actual net loss figures doesn't make sense because the total revenue for each year grew exponentially, so you really need to compare their losses as a ratio to the total revenue). It also means that they are likely to continue losing less money as they add more subscribers.

      So, based on what I know about business economics, I would say that it's most likely that Vonage will continue to be around, so long as they don't lose their pending litigation against Verizon.
    7. Re:Probably going to Vonage? by n0w0rries · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Rule #1 when dealing with level 1 tech support. You know what the problem is--so tell them what they need to hear. "Do you have a home phone number?" Your answer--"No" Problem solved. And whatever you do never tell them you're using a linux computer as your firewall! I'm running ipcop, but if I call tech support I tell them I've got my cable modem plugged directly into my Windows XP computer--and it still doesn't work.

  2. Anyone remember Dialpad? by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'll never forget Leo Laporte laughing about the business model of Dialpad on "The Screen Savers" back in 1999. The idea of giving free phone service away, with no real way to recoup their money, was laughable even in those heady days of "internet 1.0". The model has improved only slightly in the "internet 2.0" era, I'm afraid.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
    1. Re:Anyone remember Dialpad? by elrous0 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Leo was one of the hardest working men on television back in those ZDTV days. The guy was live on TV every day with 3 different shows, would do appearances on several OTHER shows, and still managed to find time to keep up with virtually every development in tech and try out tons of software. I don't think he slept.

      --
      SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  3. What can they do though? by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What could a third party VOIP telco really do to make a more reliable service when they don't control the line. Here's my idea, have a protocol that automatically detects dropped packets, and lowers the bitrate until there's not so many dropped packets, or none at all. Personally, I'd rather hear someone at 8 kbps then hear them at 128 kbps with every other word dropped from the conversation. It might sound like a bad kids walkie-talkie you bought at Walmart, but it's better than dropping words. And if you explain to your users why they are getting bad audio quality, and recommend ISPs in their area that don't have problems with maintaining good connections, then you can help to give the big telcos a reason to give good service to their customers.

    Also, make all the features free. Call waiting, call answer, call forwarding, call filtering, and whatever other features you can think up. Telcos charge a lot of money for these extras. By making them free (including them in the monthly rate), you're offering customers a big incentive switch from the other guys. And since most of these features cost very little once they are initially developed, it's a wonder why you would even want to charge for them.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
  4. Problems are usually CAUSED by telcos. by Lumpy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I have broadvoice and on a regular schedule Verizon happens to "lose" the routing information to my local Broadvoice phone number. It just magically disappears and suddenly people calling my phone get a "this number can not be dialed" message.

    I end up calling broadvoice letting them know and they have to jump through hoops to get Verizon to quit acting like a 3 year old and put the routing info back in. This happens twice yearly. I also hear of it happening elsewhere as well with providers other than Broadvoice.

    Telcos are scared to death of Voip. It sounds way better than cellphones so the current generation see it as great. They also see the $13.95 a month compared to the $49.95 a month from a telco and it's a no brainer. (Yes My VoIP line costs $13.95 a month. Yes Verizon charges $50.00 a month for a basic, every call costs you $0.03 + long distance charges phone line.)

    So the telcos screw with the Voip providers, "accidentally".

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  5. no more voice mail by Orcish_Rodent · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am/was a Sunrocket subscriber. Everything was really great, one year and 9 months of everything just working for $200 a year. Right now the phone still works, I can call and be called by people. However, the voice mail is gone both the message box on the website and the ability to leave messages when calling me (it just rings forever). I'm guessing all my old messages are toast too. When calling customer service (800-786-0132) you get a message the last part in an almost robotic voice,

    "Sunrocket! The no Gotcha phone company! ... We are no longer taking customer service or sales calls. Goodbye."

    Well I am out 2.5 months service, I guess they learned how to "get" me.

  6. Procrastination pays off. by SailorMeeko · · Score: 5, Funny

    I've been a subscriber to Vonage for a few years now. Although I am happy with their service, I don't use the phone that much, so SunRocket's package that was something like $9.99/month for 200 minutes was very attractive to me and for the past couple of months I have been meaning to change my service to them. Every week I keep telling myself, "Ok, this week I will move from Vonage to SunRocket", but the procrastinator in me kept putting it off. Now I'm glad I didn't change.

    Moral of the story: Procrastination pays off.

  7. Marketing Failure? by DCheesi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So this is (was) the #2 VoIP company behind Vonage? So why is it that I've never even heard of them?! Granted, I've never actually gone shopping for VoIP service. But I am involved in the telecomm/datacom industry, so you'd think I would have at least heard the name.

    Perhaps lack of visibility was part of their problem...?

  8. Thoughts from a former SunRocket employee by Isaac-Lew · · Score: 5, Interesting
    (Note: I left after a year in October 2006, after things really started going downhill).

    Basically, there's not one bigreason SunRocket went under, but rather a few smaller reasons that added up. The main one being that there was too much focus on bringing in management from the outside (mostly from AOL) instead of promoting from within. Also, employee retention was a big problem. When you start seeing early employees of the company quitting or getting fired, it's very demoralizing to those still there.

    I ended up leaving after I was involuntarily transferred to another department (which was supposed to be temporary, but my requests to go back to my previous department were ignored), I had a director-level non-techie jerk that had been hired from outside SunRocket placed as my immediate supervisor, and they decided to blow hundreds of thousands of dollars on network monitoring software when we in the process of doing the same thing with Nagios and/or OpenNMS & saved big money.

    To all of the former customers of SunRocket, as well as anyone considering hiring a former SunRocket employee: just about all of the non-management folks (especially the support personnel based in the US, & the technical groups) were the most competent group of people I have ever worked with, and the majority of them did care about providing the best VOIP service possible.

  9. Re:refund? by holysin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Easy, talk to your credit card company and dispute the charge (I paid $199 for 1 year of service, and the company went belly up after a month.) American express cards tend to be the best for this (6months since charge is where it starts to be a problem), but any CC should easily refund you the money w/n a couple months if you were just charged last month. Personally, in the vain hopes that sunrocket is in fact moving me to something else, I'm waiting to see what happens before I dispute the charge/mentall take the loss. The phone line works, and as I'm now living in England... Well, I'd like to keep an american phone line, and signing up for a new company isn't the easiest thing to do.