Next Version of Windows? Call it '7'

CNet has the news that Microsoft is currently aiming to release the next version of the Windows operating system in about three years. Previously known as Vienna, the OS is now simply known internally as '7'. After achieving a quality product, the article states, Microsoft's big goal with 7 is to recapture a regular release schedule for their operating system product. From the article: "Like Vista, Windows 7 will ship in consumer and business versions, and in 32-bit and 64-bit versions. The company also confirmed that it is considering a subscription model to complement Windows, but did not provide specifics or a time frame. Next up on Microsoft's agenda is Service Pack 1 for Windows Vista, which is expected before year's end. The discussion of Windows' future isn't surprising, given that Microsoft has been criticized by business customers for delays related to Vista. Many business customers pay for Microsoft's software under a license agreement called Software Assurance."

Comments

Best. Project Name. Ever.

[Skevin]

Bill: [with a Fed-Ex delivery of the new version of Windows] Linus, I never got to tell you how much I admire you and your operating system.
Linus: What's in the box, Bill?
Bill: When I saw your operating system, I wanted all the features in it. Everything from the widgets on the desktop to the exhilarating smell of its security policies.
Linus: I said, what's in the box?
Bill: And when I implemented them into my commercial operating system, I realized I had committed the sin of Envy, for which I must pay.
Linus: [Shaking] Aurgh! What's in the the booooxxx?!
Stallman: [voice suddenly crackling over the radio] Torvalds! Do not open the box! I repeat! Do not open the box!

Solomon Chang

Venice would be better

[__NR_kill]

I would call it Venice, it will be stinking and sinking anyway.

Didn't we just leave this party?

[jmorris42]

And of course Windows 7 will finally be secure, stable and simple. Which is always what Microsoft promises their new operating system will be.... a few months after they release their current version and victims start realizing that it wasn't any of those things. And they fall for it every time.

Just watch, all discussion of the shortcomings of Vista will now be answered with, "yes but Windows 7 is going to address that issue."

For about two years that is, then will come the talk of features being dropped on the cutting room floor to make it to a shipping date. But never to fear, they will only be leaving out stuff you don't really need and Windows 7 is still going to finally be THE secure, stable and simple to use OS you have been waiting for.

Then it will ship, after a four year development cycle (see, we beat Vista's development time!) and it will be wash rinse and repeat as people actually see it and realize it is Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows Vista all over again. And somehow the masses will escape coming to a 'sad realization' or will and still rationalize not doing anything about it.

But there is one ray of hope in the announcement, not that anything they say at this point can be believed of course, but if they are still staying with a 32bit version it means they have pretty much given up on ramming Trusted Computing down our throats.

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[Wellington Grey]

Then it will ship, after a four year development cycle (see, we beat Vista's development time!) and it will be wash rinse and repeat as people actually see it and realize it is Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows Vista all over again.

Yes, but Windows 8 is going to address that issue.

-Grey

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[Vellmont]

and it will be wash rinse and repeat as people actually see it and realize it is Windows 3.1, Windows 95, Windows XP, Windows Vista


So it'll be progressively better operating systems (with the possible exclusion of XP over 2000 IMO) that aren't "perfect"? That sounds fine to me.

If your metric in measuring any product is if it lives up to the marketing departments hype, then ALL products are miserable failures in that regard. We all know products never live up to the hype, so I don't quite understand the criticism here.

Of course that's not to say I'm defending everything Microsoft has done, far from it. The problem I have with this announcement is the continued long lag times between releases. Vista wasn't originally planned at 5 years, but more like 2 or 3 years. Microsoft SAYS they've changed as far as release schedules go, but it sounds like same-old-same-old to me.

IMO software develops best with a mix of frequent releases of incremental change, and major releases that re-architect everything. Microsoft has done the major architectural changes on a regular basis, but has failed to produce very many good incremental releases.

For instance, Windows 95 was a pretty good product, while Windows 98 wasn't really much more than adding USB support. ME was of course utter crap. 2000 was the best product I've seen from Microsoft (and the best major release they've done). XP was useless IMO and added little to nothing to the OS. Vista is the buggiest Microsoft OS I've run so far, and doesn't live up to many of the claims (less reboots my ass). I _really_ like the menu search feature though, but wish the sleep feature worked a lot better (extremely buggy in my experience). Despite this I won't be going back to Windows 2000, though I might just go Ubuntu on my workstation. That would make me Microsoft free for the first time in 12 years. Everything else including my work machine is some variant of Linux.

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[geekoid]

"... then ALL products are miserable failures in that regard."
OSX and the iPod and the iPhone have all lived up to the hype.

"Microsoft has done the major architectural changes on a regular basis, but has failed to produce very many good incremental releases."
Which shows you should be leary of anything they release.

There are two types of software:

Software that ages
Software that matures.

MS's software ages. It is the worse kind of software methodolgy.

If they focused on maturity, their security would be better, they could achive the goals they want a step at a time, and there reputation would be substantially improved.

IN my opinion it's time or the old gaurd to leave, or rethink the way they are trying to fullfill their goals.

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[crayz]

Ubuntu's six-month release plan is tremendously successful... It seems Microsoft is realizing the flaws in its own development model and is trying to fix it. This is good; it means better software for everyone.

Gee what a great point. Except that it's already over six months past Vista came out, and Microsoft is quoted in the article saying "7" would be under development for three years

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[physicsnick]

Hi, if you're not going to read the article, maybe you should at least read the summary?

Emphasis mine:

After achieving a quality product, the article states, Microsoft's big goal with 7 is to recapture a regular release schedule for their operating system product.
In other words, they know that Vista is far too broken to start making incremental releases for it. They need a stable working base to start from.

Windows 2000 would have been the perfect opportunity for Microsoft to lock into a fixed release cycle. It was good enough that even if they did nothing at all, they could still make a new release every year; this meant they could have focused their energy on smaller changes.

Unfortunately for everyone, they got lazy and sat on their monopoly, and fell behind OS X (and more recently Linux) in terms of security, visual quality, and ease of use. Now they're at a point where they've got a bug-ridden half-featured OS released to try and catch up. They need to get back to the stability of Windows 2000 before they can lock into a stable release cycle.

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[jcr]

I don't agree with your claim that they're lazy. I think the evidence points to incompetence.

-jcr

Re:Didn't we just leave this party?

[Master of Transhuman]

"It seems Microsoft is realizing the flaws in its own development model and is trying to fix it"

Did you read the issues around Vista that were posted on Microsoft employee blogs by Microsoft employees?

And this was AFTER Jim Allchin told Gates the thing would never be done if they didn't change their methods.

So they changed their methods.

And what happened was that an incredibly broken testing system was put in place which was so badly broken that it delayed Vista release for months, while the development managers certified test builds as "Approved" even when they failed numerous - possibly even ALL - tests.

The problem with Microsoft is their PEOPLE - not their system. Their corporate culture is broken - and broken beyond repair as long as Gates and Ballmer are running the show. The stockholders should be in revolt - if they knew anything about the company.

The bottom line is that Vista has twice the code in it that Linux does - and does not do twice as much (unless you count the ridiculous DRM checking mechanisms, I suppose.) There's no way one company can develop a system with even more code in it and come up with something that works. I doubt it's even feasible for the Linux community unless the industry comes up with better development and testing methods. When Linux hits the amount of lines of code in Vista, it will be BETTER than Vista - but even I doubt whether it will be adequately reliable for normal use.

The problem is that the industry - especially Microsoft (and with an even worse attitude) - is pushing the limits of the current software development technology. The result is what we see everywhere: "Nothing works and nobody cares."

Not the luck of the Irish...

[Shabadage]

7 eh?

I'm assuming they're using this name to tell us how many service packs it will take before it should function like advertised, right?

Re:Not the luck of the Irish...

[Tribbin]

Yes, it will be a countdown.

The first service pack will be called 6.

7 years

[Wellington Grey]

Microsoft is scoping Windows 7 development to a three-year time frame...

Somehow I think, like Visa, this will take a hell of a lot longer than expected. Anyone else think that MS will have to endure lots of we'll-see-it-in-seven-years jokes?

-Grey

Windows Se7en

[The Living Fractal]

My guess is its biggest sin is Gluttony. Any disagreements?

Leave it to computer geeks....

[Brad1138]

To name it after a hot Star Trek character.

32bit?

[SolusSD]

Is it really neccessary to support 32bit processors when it probably won't run on anything that doesn't support 64bit anyway? Kind of like Windows 3.1 being 16bit when it wouldn't run on anything older than a 386 (32bit) anyway.

My my...

[Funkcikle]

32bit operating system in 2010...I wonder how many floppy disks Microsoft will be supplying it on.

"7"? I saw the movie

[microcars]

it does not end well for those that were involved

7

This could be awhile...

[Myrkridian42]

After achieving a quality product, Microsoft's big goal with 7...

So, will it be bundled with Duke Nukem Forever?

History lesson

[jmorris42]

> Kind of like Windows 3.1 being 16bit when it wouldn't run on anything older than a 386 (32bit) anyway.

From your profile it is clear you are too young to remember it first hand so I'll educate instead of flaming ya. :)

Recall that there were versions of Windows prior to Windows 3.1, the first clue to which should have been the version number. Moving to Win32 was a major upheaval in the software world, keeping compatibility with Win16 and more importantly, DOS were the major selling features of Windows 3.1. By 3.1 a lot of major software was running in Windows 16-bit AND business depended on a lot of DOS code, home users depended on DOS for the majority of games, etc. Heck, most of the software people were actually running on WinNT was 16-bit code. And most games were DOS based well into the Win95/Win98 era. It wasn't until XP was looming and game makers saw sticking with DOS as a death sentence that they drank the DirectX Kool-Aid for any project not depending on 3D.

And there were a LOT of 286 based machines not only in the installed base but still being sold. For example on the day Win3.1 shipped I was working at a Radio Shack in the D/FW area and the only 386 class machine in the store was the SCO Xenix box in the stockroom running the store. To buy a 386 class machine from Tandy you had to go to a Business Computer Center.

Re:History lesson

[WK2]

Recall that there were versions of Windows prior to Windows 3.1, the first clue to which should have been the version number.

It's funny that you mention that. There were no NT versions prior to Windows NT 3.1. They started with 3.1 because people justly fear 1.0 versions.

Re:It's just a version number

[KarmaMB84]

Erm no..

Windows NT4 = 4.0
Windows 2000 = 5.0
Windows XP = 5.1
Windows 2003/Windows XP x64 = 5.2
Windows Vista = 6.0

That's odd it says 10.4.10

[John.P.Jones]

I must be ahead a few versions, it says 10.4.10

Windows 7

[qazsedcft]

Let's see:

Glutony: It will probably require at least 32 GB of RAM.
Envy: They keep copying other peoples ideas.
Sloth: Too lazy to fix bugs, so they release new operating systems instead.
Lust: It's hard to beat all those porn trojans.
Greed: Well, it's M$ after all.
Wrath: That's how you feel after 5 minutes of using it.
Pride: And after all that they'll still pretend it's the best OS ever...

Yeah, Windows 7 is a pretty good name for it.

The "Osborne Effect"

[realmolo]

Three years isn't that far away, and most businesses aren't planning on moving to Vista any time soon. My guess is that many of them will just skip it entirely if the next version of Windows, which presumably will be what Vista SHOULD HAVE been, is right around the corner.

It just confirms the widely-held opinion that Windows Vista was rushed to market, and is really just a crappy "place-holder" operating system, much like Windows ME.

Re:It's just a version number

[rubycodez]

vista is 6.66

Contradictions

[Dracos]

After achieving a quality product, the article states, Microsoft's big goal with 7 is to recapture a regular release schedule for their operating system product.

Infinite time is a regular release schedule?

I fear the worst

[realdodgeman]

I think Microsoft have one real option if they want to stay in the game.

They have to do like they said before Vista: Rebuild everything, implement winFS, and give us a new, functional GUI, and a stable system. They also have to maintain a near 100% compatibility with Vista and/or XP.

I think Vista might be the last time that software companies will even bother to rewrite software for a new Windows. By the time 7 comes, Linux and Mac will have a significant part of the market share (I would guess at least 15-20%). If Microsoft fails this time, the future for Windows looks very dark.

Remember, no other Windows version is as hated as Windows Vista. Proof here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcARXN7cr9Y

I thought I recognized your foul stench

[Dachannien]

The company also confirmed that it is considering a subscription model to complement Windows

The more you tighten your grip, Ballmer, the more desktops will slip through your fingers.

What Microsoft needs to do

[krelian]

is to build a new OS from scratch. This is the only thing that can save Windows from its own increasingly complex API and general sluggish performance The Singularity Project could give us a clue of what a future OS from MS could look like.

The problem is that MS cannot just abandon all the software that is built on NT so the only solution is to take it very very slowly. .NET is a move in the right direction, pushing and encouraging developers to use managed code. Legacy code will probably run under some virtualization technology.

Getting good performance under a virtual machine still requires a lot of resources that the average home user never has. Perhaps in order to push home users to buy this new version of windows - which will give everyone worse performance when using the software they all know and love (NT software) - MS will decide to give it away for free and make their money selling ads

Of course this is just wild speculation and I haven't really looked into its viability from a business point of view.

Re:What Microsoft needs to do

[FlyingGuy]

Well other then Losing Ballmer they need to do a few things and your right one is to just throw the shit away and start fresh.

But the problem is far beyond backward compatibility.

First of all they have to pick a model on which to base this From Scratch new operating system. Now when it comes to this it is not as wide open as one would think. First of all they have to have a hardware platform on which to build. The current hardware world is basically divided between Intel Processors & Chipsets and IBM processors and chipsets. AMD's are clones of Intel processors with some interesting modes. So where to you choose to host this thing? If you go with Intel do you collaborate with them on an entirely new instruction set and design? Do you go with IMB and the PowerPC line and it's successors such as Cell Technology? If you are going to push out something totally new then these are questions you have to ask. Even Microsoft with all their money and clout has to have a partnership with the hardware producers.

In this theoretical new hardware environment what do we do? Do we come up with an entirely new bus? I mean please, anything to replace the PCI bus. And what about external communication? Do we still keep forging along with USB? Embrace FireWire? Do we go back to having dedicated interfaces for things like Keyboards and Mice?

Personally I think something like a fiber-optic switch being the heart of a "computer" and things like Processors, Ram, Storage Devices, et all each having a fiber connection. If you need more of anything you just plug it into a port of the fiber switch and off you go.

The problem with that brilliant idea is that you only switch so fast from fiber to electrical signals and back so fast. Thats one of the problems with digital is the switching and the converting, which is one of the reasons IMO why we are still stuck with things like PCI, it may suck, but it has 32 or more discrete pathways that carry all the various signals, in parallel to the various main components.

Parallelism was what made SCSI so superior to IDE or MFM along with the fact that it has its one on-board processing and command set. However along with all that came the problems of clocking and this that and the other. SAS will push the speed up, put at some point there is a limit as to how fast you can signal before it just becomes a radio transmitter and the physical layer will become to cumbersome with all the shielding and the power consumption since the faster you signal the more it just like DC to the copper.

Processor speed is starting to approach the end of its limit and its time to start looking for better ways to line instructions up across a broad front and process them at once and resolve the dependencies accordingly which brings us right back to software.

Can software, an OS, solve some of these problems? yes but not alone. To re-invent an entirely new OS will take years unless you want it to be a re-hash of the Unix model which is what, like it or not, everything out there is based upon. It will take bold new thinking in both the hardware and software fields to bring us the truly next generation of computers. Some of the people at Microsoft, IBM, Novell, The Linux community are capable of some bold steps but the the companies themselves as entities are not IMO capable. In the hay day of advancement we had places like PARC, AT&T Labs, MIT, UC Berkeley, The Government ( indirectly through grants ), and a few others doing PURE research and that was where all the great advances really came from. If we are to do so again, those places must be renewed, funded and staffed with people with imagination and the drive to take any direction that shows promise and do the basic research.

The last thing that has to happen to get all these great labs back in top shape is patent reform. These days research is often scuttled because some MBA or Lawyer cannot see the road to lock this in so lots of money can be made.

Better than "Soda"...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ballmer: I think they really went for that Soda.
Gates: What, are you crazy? They hated it. They were just humouring you.
Ballmer: Ah, alright. Believe me, that OS is gonna be called Soda.
Gates: I can tell you, I would never name my system Soda.
Ballmer: Oh, no no no. Course not. I got a great name for our OS. A real original. You wanna hear what it is? Huh, you ready?
Gates: Yeah.
*Ballmer uses his finger to draw a number 7 in the air, while whistling*
Gates: What is that? Sign language?
Ballmer: No, Seven.
Gates: Microsoft Seven? You're serious?
Ballmer: Yeah. It's a beautiful name for an OS or an application...
*Gates scoffs*
Ballmer: ...especially an app. Or an OS.
Gates: I don't think so.
Ballmer: What, you don't like the name?
Gates: It's not a name. It's a number.
Ballmer: I know. It's Mickey Mantle's number. So not only is it an all around beautiful name, it is also a living tribute.
Gates: It's awful. I hate it!
Ballmer: Well, that's the name!
Gates: Oh no it is not! No program of mine is ever going to be named Seven!
Ballmer: Awright, let's just stay calm here! Don't get all crazy on me!

Subscription models... let me tell you about Avaya

[lanner]

I work for a mid-sized business; four locations with about 500 employees.

We use Avaya (formerly known as lucent, formerly known as AT&T) phone systems. They are truly awesome -- in a not-good-at-all way. I am the primary administrator (UNIX background, not old-fart-telecom background).

So first we bought them, paying thousands and thousands of dollars, but now we have to RENT them too. You see, you pay a maintenance fee every month that works out to something like $8,000. If we stop paying, it's Avaya's policy that they will dial into our phone systems and cripple them so that we can't use about half of the command set. No, I'm not kidding -- they've done it to us by mistake and they are being sued over it in other states.

What do we get out of it? Not much. If some of our server hardware breaks, then Avaya will replace it, but Avaya won't assist with programming unless we pay them something like $80/hour for assistance. Given that a 24-port digital line card costs as little as $3K from authorized resellers, and we've never had one break, we would be much better off just hording our cash and buying a couple of spare cards and parts.

Unfortunately, Avaya also has a tight control over their supplier market. They have "authorized resellers" and then the SCARY "GRAY MARKET" oooooohhhhh BE SCARED!!! It's also known as eBay, where part prices are roughly 1/3rd of the cheapest Avaya authorized-monopolistic reseller.

Our sales person reminds me of a used auto salesmen.

Subscription services usually suck when it comes to software. Be warned.

Yeah, but this time...

[marcosdumay]

Windows 7 is going to implement WinFS.

Really.

I'm serious!

Would you stop laughing?!

7 is for the minimum recommended memory in GB.

[Glytch]

Remember when 95 was released, and we all made those jokes about 95 meaning the minimum recommended memory in MB, or the amount of disk space in MB it would use? Sometimes I think "If we only knew."

Voyager reference ...

[ScrewMaster]

1. Windows 3.1
2. Windows 95
3. Windows 98
4. Windows 98ME
5. Windows NT4
6. Windows 2K
7. Windows XP
8. Vista
9. Seven

Seven-of-Nine ... which means that it will have very large breasts and be covered in blue Spandex.

This one may have potential.

meanwhile, out in the world

[MrKaos]

A friend of mine, I'd call her a "average computer user", was asking me (she knew I worked in IT) why power users (her mum in this case) even bothered upgrading windows? I was thinking of my answer (cpu capacity, memory capacity - access to better resources, upgraded software etc), when she said...

"My mum upgraded and it's exactly the same, except now it's got 'rounded corners', big deal it's the same thing except the 'corners are round'!!!"

I was quietly suprised, but she went on..

"My mum has gone throught the same hassle everytime she decides to upgrade her computer, she spends a whole lot of money, a whole lot of time and in the end the result is the same thing, except 'the corners are rounder'".

That is the perspective of a average computer user with no technical interest, I simply agreed with her and said I had noticed pretty much the same thing.

For as long as I can remember M$ have underdelivered. I don't even support windows users anymore, it's simply not worth the effort, if I fix it, it will break again subject to the three R's of windows;

Reboot the machine.

Reload the application.

Reinstall the Operating System.

I can charge them for it, but I usually just make suggestions on how to fix it so they have to go through the hassle themselves, after all it was their choice.

Nowadays, I just give people a Ubuntu live install to try, I tell them it will probably be a bit slow running of the CD or DVD and to focus on the way it works rather than the speed. I think that, despite the fragmentation in the Linux distribution's, I continue to notice a trend of installing more Linux, either Fedora or Ubuntu. This year I've actually had people asking me for linux installs, I haven't had any of these lay-users wanting to go back to windows even though I give them the option to. In reality, I think it comes down to this,

You can fool some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.

I don't think this simple peice of wisdom factors into M$'s business plan.