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Thunderbird to Leave Mozilla Foundation
An anonymous reader writes "MozillaZine is reporting that Mozilla Thunderbird is to move to a 'new separate organizational setting' as the Mozilla Foundation focuses more and more on Mozilla Firefox. Citing a blog post by Chief Lizard Wrangler Mitchell Baker, MozillaZine outlines the three possibilities for Thunderbird that are being considered: 'one is to create a entirely new non-profit, which would offer maximum independence for Thunderbird but is organisationally complex. A second option is to create a new subsidiary of the Mozilla Foundation for Thunderbird, which would keep the Mozilla Foundation involved but may mean that Thunderbird continues to be neglected in favour of Firefox. A final option is to recast Thunderbird as community project, similar to SeaMonkey, and set up a small independent services and consulting company to continue development. However, there are concerns over how the Thunderbird product, project and company would interact'. Lead Thunderbird developer Scott MacGregor favours the third option."
Before it even hit MozillaZine... and what do I get? Nothing.
And when you try to find Thunderbird extensions, they're all mixed in with the firefox ones and you can't tell which is for which.
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It could just be that when it comes to e-mail, there are plenty of competitors. It's not that Thunderbird is bad in anyway, but it's a matter of taste. Some people like Evolution, some like GMail, some (for some reason) like Outlook. There are many more freely available mail clients than web browsers. It would be very unlikely for Thunderbird to meet the reception that Firefox did.
Thank God for evolution.
But why do I keep using it? Because I hope it will become as good as Firefox and switching email clients is never as straightforward as one would like. And I'm not saying FF does not have flaws, in my opinion benefits outweighs the flaws. I'm not sure if this is true with TB. I have no idea, and I'm probably not alone failing to predict the future, if a new status for Thunderbird will actually help the project or not... I guess we'll find out in a few months/years!
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In the enterprise world, it's not uncommon for companies to not use Outlook but still rely on an Exchange infrastructure. Thunderbird as a standalone mail client is fine, but if it wants to compete it's going to have to integrate much better with robust calendar and resource scheduling programs. Lightning or Sunbird betas aren't going to cut it.
This is disappointing news, and begs the question why the Mozilla Foundation can't provide the needed resources to Thunderbird?
Given the Mozilla Foundation HAS a substantial amount of money, presumably spinning Thunderbird out into a separate entity will mean Thunderbird will have even less money than it has today because it can not be cross-subsidised by Firefox's search revenues. Spinning Thunderbird out, which will cost it more and earn it less, doesn't sound like a recipe for success if your problem is lack of resources.
Whatever little Mozilla Foundation is providing to Thunderbird has to be better than nothing, which is what they would be getting from them if they went their own way. Unless the foundation is hindering development in someway, I really don't see the point of spinning off.
Someone with no technical knowledge cannot run a technically oriented company. The Mozilla Foundation needs someone competent. Winifred cannot be the leader of something she doesn't understand. That's Winifred Mitchell Baker, the CEO of Mozilla, an extremely socially uncomfortable lawyer who became CEO when no one thought there was an opportunity. Now that Mozilla Foundation is making millions from making Google the default browser, Winifred can afford to hire people to make herself look good.
There are many, many quirks in Firefox, not just Thunderbird, that should be fixed, but no technically oriented manager to organize that. For example, the CPU hogging bug has been there for at least 5 years. Winifred has insufficient control over those who work for her, because she doesn't understand what they do. The Firefox CPU hogging and memory gobbling bug would take some serious troubleshooting to find, and no one wants to do the work, apparently. See Firefox development sometimes resembles playing.
Don't let ignorant and managers destroy your programming efforts. Find some way to have them removed.
But it could also be the prevalence of web mail.
I think you hit the nail on the head. People who require Outlook/Exchange for work use Outlook as their client; those who don't generally use Gmail or some other web mail service. There isn't much room in between for a standalone email client anymore.
Cheers,
IT
Power corrupts. PowerPoint corrupts absolutely.
If you have a problems about how she is doing in that role, then say so, but otherwise you are complaining about the wrong person.
Also, when you go to a web page and browse for Firefox extensions, you're doing it in Firefox. You click on the link to an extension, it automatically installs, and takes effect immediately. The Thunderbird, you still browse for extensions in your web browser, you have to download them, and then install them into Thunderbird through Thunderbird.
The whole process feels very different.
"Stop fawning over Firefox so much and develop the projects more equally" isn't even mentioned.
It's just a case of glory seekers. From the Mozillazine forums/Bugzilla, it appears MScott is pretty much the only truly dedicated developer of Thunderbird. It's not as "sexy" as Firefox, so people want to contribute to the browser instead. Firefox has brand recognition to almost make it a household name like IE is now. Thunderbird, not nearly so much.
I find it fast and a much better program than Outlook. Now if you compare it to Outlook plus Exchange then it really isn't in the same league. To me that is the problem.
I think you're right-- that's the problem. How to solve that problem, I don't know, but that is most likely the reason why Thunderbird doesn't have a larger user base.
I think most people who use e-mail fall into a couple groups.
The only real group that Thunderbird could go after would be the business users. However, in order to do that, you need to be able to connect to Exchange and do calendars, notes, task lists, and Exchange contact lists. Of course, you could also replace Exchange with something else, but that something else would have to have the same sorts of features, and Thunderbird would still have to connect to it.
Contrary to what many geeks think, Exchange/Outlook is very helpful for a lot of businesses. Connecting tasks, calendars, e-mail, and contacts all together, and making that available through client software, on the web, and on mobile devices has turned out to be the big-business killer app.
Frankly, the only mail clients I use are GMail and Thunderbird. However, I don't know anyone else (outside of online contacts) who use Thunderbird. My wife uses the Apple mail client, at work we use Lotus Notes, etc. There just seem to be a lot more options, even in the FLOSS spectrum (eg, KMail, Pine, Mutt, etc).
For whatever reason, it seems like mail clients are much more about taste than a web browser is.
Thank God for evolution.
While Thunderbird is a great product (use pine myself), Mozilla are failing to rise to the challenge. Resigning themselves to one success story and passing the buck isn't a long term strategy. I've installed Thunderbird on many customers desktops because when it fits the bill, it is IMHO the best client.
Perhaps Mozilla need a business orientated product manager to take Thunderbird out into the world. In ditching XULRunner and now looking to rid themselves of TB, they're left fighting a losing battle. Imagine how fast competitors would encroach on Microsoft if they ditched everything apart from Windows and Office?
Something is very wrong here.
One word: gmail
Microsoft Sucks, F/OSS Rocks. I get mod points now right?
Thunderbird has to compete with not only client-side apps like Outlook and Eudora, but also webmail packages, which are becoming very sophisticated thanks to AJAX. Years ago, webmail sucked - limited space, no search ability, etc. But now it is really good, and I'm finding I envy my colleagues who don't need Remote Desktop to check their email. I even wonder if POP3's future is looking grim.
You have to wonder why thunderbird doesn't compete as well in the email marketspace as firefox does in the browser market space.
Because there's no reason it would. First wave of Firefox adoption was developers and savvy users. They got development extensions and they cared about good CSS/JS support.
You don't develop for e-mail. You could assemble the occasional HTML email but that's hardly "development".
Second wave of adoption came from the fact not that Firefox is good, but that IE was bad. No tabs (the mythical tabs) and poor security led companies and users to switch.
There were some VBS related exploits for Outlook (part of Office) but nothing last few years about Outlook Express (part of Windows). Outlook Express is a very decent mail client, and people just use it for what it is.
Killer features can't push people to adopt Thunderbird since people care to receive and send their email only. Thunderbirds spam filtering isn't noticed by anyone using Outlook Express. (hm.. what about email tabs...? naah).
Actually, smooth syncing with my cell phone is pushing me back to Outlook. Firefox has really overcome almost all compatibility hurdles - Thunderbird (particularly the address book and calendaring bits) not so much. Also, Thunderbird still seems to get confused about offline copies.
Ultimately, I just wonder if it has enough developer person-hours to compete with Outlook. Firefox definitely does.
I don't see why they don't solve this by having a custom prefix to the extension download URI - something like thunderbird://addons.mozilla.org/*/*/tbird_extensi on.xpi. Even if you don't have Thunderbird open at the time, it would open automatically, and then realize its being fed an .xpi format extension and automatically prompt to install it.
Maybe it introduces security risks I suppose, but the extension could be signed with an encryption key and checked against a Mozilla/TBird-team database to make sure that not only you don't have extensions getting installed by non-white-listed sites, but I think would also make it harder to spoof TBird into accepting fake signatures. This would really only be needed I think if you wanted to be able to install TBird extensions from say Opera or IE - it could be done away with if TBird extensions could only be installed through Firefox (and just use a white-list maintained in/by Firefox), except then a lot of people would cry foul play for the process being less open and negatively effect people who for example use TBird but Opera or IE for their browser (work place policies, personal preference, etc)...
Now to wait and see if people flame me for not submitting it straight Mozilla - I'm sure other people have thought of this, since I just did in the past few minutes here (didn't even have it thought out all the way when I started posting, but it could surely be refined)...
She's in charge of the organization. Anything that it produces reflects on her. Her job does include all the donations and budgeting and whatever you described, but it certainly also includes making sure the product is decent. If she can't do it herself, it's up to her to find somebody who is capable of managing the development team to produce a decent product. The parent's saying she's not capable of that.
My Thunderbird has three IMAP accounts and three POP3 accounts, and I get mail on all of them all the time.
Maybe it's not Thunderbird?
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I am not trolling, but my karma's probably going to get hosed here because there's no faster way to get people whipped up crooked-ass bent out of shape, making vi vs emacs look like a kiddie-time quarrel, than to tell people their email environment is going to change, should be used differently, is not as good as another environment, etc. Discussions about e-mail clients == religious war.
For me, e-mail clients are dead. Post gmail, webmail is good enough for me, particularly with the keyboard interface enabled on gmail. I use the native client vs webmail at work about 30-70 (in favour of webmail) and I handle a lot of mail daily. Now that I think about it, I'm not really sure why I even use the native client that much; all my business apps sit in the enterprise portal anyway, so I'm already there. Old habits die hard, I guess.
For me, it's a question of why would I install Thunderbird (or any other client)? I already have Firefox installed, and it gets me to all the mail I need. Nothing against Thunderbird - I'm sure it's quite nice.
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Doesn't it seem like Mozilla goes through these cycles, where they add the kitchen sink, then they realize "Oh no, we're this bloated piece of crap" and so they divest themselves and try to go "back to basics", only to begin the cycle all over again?
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OK, it's less functional and robust compared to the dominant player
Unfortunately, that will kill it dead in the corporate space. Cheaper isn't cheaper if you lose money because the server keeps going down (or whatever).
Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loathe Outlook and regularly curse the fact that I'm required to use it at work, and would dearly love there to be a viable replacement. As such, I'm quietly rooting for any such project.
But make no mistake, "cheaper but less functional and robust" (than Outlook!) isn't going to cut it. Given time I'm sure it'll get there, but if that's an accurate picture, then it's not there yet, unfortunately.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
oooh. that file open dialog is not thunderbirds dialog. it is the famous gtk file dialog, the sucky one that gives bad name to all gtk apps.
i am cursing whenever i use them in thunderbird or gimp (or very rarely - firefox).
Rich