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Case of the Great Hot-Site Swap
BobB writes "Two universities — Bowdoin in Maine and Loyola Marymount in Los Angeles — have entered a unique arrangement under which they are backing up each other's web sites, email and servers on different ends of the continent. They say this could be a disaster recovery model all sorts of organizations could follow. From the article: 'When Bowdoin switched over to Exchange e-mail, so the schools would have similar e-mail infrastructure, LMU staffers were their guides and advisers. "We implemented that pretty quickly," says Davis, the Bowdoin CIO. "When we launched Exchange, we had just eight calls to our help desk." And the shared experience of the infrastructure components then forms a kind of informal help desk, where managers and staff can reach out for advice, brainstorm and troubleshoot problems with their colleagues a continent away.'"
I don't trust anyone.
They ain't touchin' mah beautiful bytes.
does it have to be an equal agreement?
They're using their grammar skills there.
Your data can always* live somewhere else if it's properly encrypted.
*Always limited to the length of time until encryption used is broken.
Case of the Great Hot-Wife Swap
Pity. It being a Saturday, I kind of wanted to read that article.
From what I understand, this is pretty common in higher ed -- in fact, the college that I work for is currently setting up something similar with another college in the area. Not cross-continent redundancy, true, but enough to keep things going should there be a smaller disaster in the area. If all of Western New York is wiped out, I don't really care if people can get their email.
This really came to the forefront with the beating the New Orleans area colleges took during Katrina; from what I recall, Loyola and Tulane were really unprepared and suffered for it.
--saint
I guess we should have submitted an article to trade magazines to give us more publicity also.
Excluding religious points.. why not? Exchange is nowdays a VERY MATURE colaboration system and the de-facto standard for business in many places. What's the diference? Use Exchange, GMail, POP3 or whatever you want. It's all about freedome, isn't it?
It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
rests on the double coincidence of needs, which must be maintained going forward if the system is going to continue to work with satisfactory payoffs for both sides..."
- professor, Ec 101 (Bowdoin College)
- professor, Business Management 1a (Loyala Maramount)
We have many clients that mirror backups between East and West coast. They may be connected at each end at that speed, but they are almost assuredly not achieving throughput at that rate.
YMMV, but there are 3000 miles to deal with here. I've never been able to achieve speeds like that, and we have some seriously fat pipes in our data centers.
Experience teaches only the teachable. -AH
...that you might have to accept the legal responsibilies of the site that is being backed up. It's not just a simple exchange of providing corresponding services... Take it down to a personal level... who would you trust to use your personal computer as a backup server (in a reciprocal manner)? No one that hasn't your full and complete trust is my guess. Encryption would provide some protection but this isn't about data backup but service fallback.
So unless you have some kind of legal agreement covering your actual risks it's not for everyone. But for large scale organisations, with real legal clout, like universities it might makes sense. But not for individuals.
It's all about freedom, as long as you do what he wants you to.
Who modded this? Aside from the post being more or less irrelevant (it's not about a multi-peered architecture) his comparison to his LAN using his parents system should have been a good reason to rule out ANY enterprise architecture expertise whatsoever.
That said, as a system admin who's business does not have any kind of secondary solution (no hot/hot, no hot/cold, etc) I'd still be leery of trusting my data or my lively hood to a peer and an admin team I didn't know. Maybe this works better in academia, but I don't see banks or mortgage companies dropping their secondary sites and teaming with competitors to provide this service.
Quack, quack.
/late night rant on/Actually there is a large number of individuals who are supportes of the free/os movement for ideological reasons: "it's all about freedom" they cry, "let's us all decide what to use", "information wants to be free", "yadda yadda"... And then, when somebody chose to use Exchange or Vista or whatever they are the first to jump and cry foul....Wasn't it about freedom after all? Well, they made their choise, so what's the freaking problem then? It's actualy very amusing. Bytes ate bytes. Software is software and a tool is just a tool and everything that is above childish ideological reasons... Let's people use whatever they want, and believe me, the world will be a less hateful place. /late night rant off/
It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
It's always nice to see something from Maine featured in technology news. We're a tiny state population-wise, but there are many high-tech companies here. Hell, even in my own town there is a company that developed and makes the MK47 Advanced Lightweight Grenade Launcher as well as a bunch of other armaments for the military. Sure, this post is off topic and my karma blows already, but I always have to say "Go Maine!" whenever I read about my little state on any technology forum/site.
Anonymous Coward: "This is slashdot. Accuracy is second class citizen here, unlike King Bias."
The summary mentions a university using Exchange successfully. Anathema, I say! Anathema! Have we no sense of decency? Must we sit idly by and let such disinformation blot out a beacon of truth here on the Internet? Let us take up our arms, brothers, and march onward. Er, roll onward, since all our computer chairs have wheels on them. We shall destroy the enemy while sitting upright in an ergonomic fashion! We shall upend the world from the depths of the basement!
that my mail is being watched by 'the authorities' (you know, the ones which are keeping us safe from terrorism so successfully these days), and that if I should ever lose any I can just make a baseless accusation against myself to the police and have them restore it from their backups.
Exchange used to be a great steaming pile of rubbish you could not back up properly without shutting down everything for the duration of the tape run (yes there were hacks, but not really good enough for bare metal recovery). It has improved a lot since then - personally I prefer just about anything else instead of something with big, weird, slow databases you can't read with anything else that change format with versions. So long as things are kept carefully in step (ie. same versions and patches so no big deal) at both sites this will work well.
When Bowdoin switched over to Exchange e-mail ...
... I'm sorry.
Oh
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
The alternate nameservers for many Universities are often at other schools. Not the same thing, but interesting to note:
mtnBook:~ $ whois rochester.edu
Name Servers:
NS1.UTD.ROCHESTER.EDU 128.151.2.1
NS2.UTD.ROCHESTER.EDU 128.151.7.6
SIMON.CS.CORNELL.EDU
DNS.CS.WISC.EDU
mtnBook:~ $ whois cornell.edu
Name Servers:
BIGRED.CIT.CORNELL.EDU 128.253.180.2
DNS.CIT.CORNELL.EDU 192.35.82.50
CAYUGA.CS.ROCHESTER.EDU
mtnBook:~ $ whois ucsb.edu
Name Servers:
NS1.UCSB.EDU 128.111.1.1
NS2.UCSB.EDU 128.111.1.2
KNOT.BROWN.EDU
There's a bunch more NYU/UCBerkeley, WUSTL/ULA, etc.
The University of Cincinnati, The Ohio State University, and the University of Miami (Ohio) are already doing this.
That way you only take a real hit during the first copy.
After that, you should be able to copy just the changes and the new files. It is amazing.
Well done, you win.
But, know this: you haven't seen the last of me! You shall rue the day you caught me in my own logic trap!
"They say this could be a disaster recovery model all sorts of organizations could follow."
For private businesses maybe, but I'm sure hosting backups on other organizations hardware is not acceptable under SOX.
The University I work for has used Exchange for the last 4 years. From my point of view as a user, it's been excellent. There hasn't been more than a handful of hours of downtime in my entire term there (that I've noticed).
I'd like to see Microsoft broken up the way AT&T was a few decades ago, but for real. Not, however, because their Exchange Server sucks. Vista is a different story, of course, and is a real dog. But, by automatically being critical of every product, the "I hate everything Microsoft" critics hurt their own case.
You are welcome on my lawn.
CIA, FBI, CSIS, KGB, MI5...
It is the most secure backup system in the world.
Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
For a moment I thought it was Hot-wife swap and then I realized I was on /. :-(
This business model has been done and it failed miserably not so very long ago.
google for "Redundant Networks"
This is common for survivalist and preparedness minded folks. You and a trusted relative or friend exchange backup critical gear/necessities/copies of records, etc. In case of catastrophic loss of either abode, the other person has a decent "backup" for you to fall back on. Arrangements like this have been quite common for some decades now, usually they include mutually assured lodging, should full long term evacuation be required. IMO, it is quite a sound idea. Remember on the news, you see the same scene all the time, those scenes from..take your pick, fires, floods, hurricanes or whatever.. the newsies always zero in on those folks who are all freaked out and sad, and EVERY time they say "We lost EVERYTHING!"..well, there's no need for that if you take the time in advance to preposition enough of your gear so it doesn't fall into the "everything" category. The situation will still suck, but having a nice set of backup everything will sure help mitigate things and make the situation suck *less*. As to what to exchange/store, use your imagination, what would you like to have as a backup if for some reason your home just got wiped out? Spare sets of clothes for everyone, favorite toys for the kids, some electronic gear, tools, sporting goods, books, other media of importance to you, family photos, household records, personal mementos, etc. Salt to taste there. Even just a stuffed closet is good enough, that and the place to evacuate *to*.
That, and what we call BOBs, or "bug out bags" are good ideas. A "bob" is a backpack or other container (backbacks are good in case you get stuck on foot), that has enough critical essentials to keep you alive for a week or so, enough even on foot to get you out of the disaster area most likely. It's called a bug-out bag from the old army term, and it is designed so if you have zero notice-hear on the radio local railroad has a tanker car full of chlorine leaking, nasty forest fire heading your way, and it's close, etc, that you can grab it and go, out the door within less than one minute. Very high speed emergency evacuation. The deal is, you hope you never need it, but if you do, it literally could save your life.
Interesting subject, and although it is not directly related to the main parent IT topic, the concept is very similar.
So when the RIAA/MPAA come a knockin', they can subpoena the data from both universities in one shot.
Anyone who thinks Exchange is a great tool has probably never performed administration of a production Exchange server.
Exchange is a sysadmin's nightmare. It's great from the end-user's point of view, but from the sysadmin's point of view, it's flaky and broken and crashes if you breath on it too hard.
My blog
They would store it in the middle (instead of on the edges, where it could fall off), somewhere like Lebanon, Kansas, equally convenient to both coasts.
What?
So does this mean that if one University doesn't give up information to the RIAA, then the RIAA could just try to get it from the "backups" from another University ? Not that I would ever suggest that the RIAA would ever do such a thing.
The simple and undeniable fact is that nothing... absolutely nothing... compares to MS Exchange. It's far and away the best email system available for businesses today.
The failure of FOSS has been to sit on their hands and say "sendmail is good enough", or whatever other half-assed FOSSie solution they would like to force everyone into using.
Thank goodness for MS, and the fact that they make software worth purchasing.
It is usually not about each individual's freedom, but every individual's freedom... One person deciding that an entire university will use exchange and nothing but (thus exercising their freedom) severely limits the freedom of the students and faculty at that university to choose email clients. Luckily my undergrad university also offered IMAP access (although they very strongly discouraged it); otherwise I'd have been stuck either using Windows and outlook or using the webmail interface (evolution connector wasn't really working yet then. Is it now?). Neither one is a good option in my opinion. However, there are a large number of options for replacing exchange (as an email system, perhaps not as a whole-hog groupware system... that's out of my realm of understanding, but anyway, nearly all that it was used for at my university was email, so...) which do not limit the freedom of the students and faculty regarding mail clients.
So, which is worth more: the freedom of the person choosing an email system, or the freedom of thousands of faculty and students? I think that, if you can calm down for a minute, you will find that most of the people you would blithely brush off as "FOSSIES" (to use the AC trolls' term) do understand that when people's freedoms conflict with one another, things are very very complex. They seem to advocate their own freedom above that of others; you seem to advocate others' freedom over theirs. Neither you nor them are advocating self-sacrifice, so we can't use that appeal to emotion to establish who is right. So, who is right? Whose freedom has to give? "Your right to swing your arm stops at the end of my nose."
Furthermore, I think you will also find, in a quiet moment, that most of the "FOSSIES" would be happy enough with people using Exchange if it didn't limit their freedom of mail clients. Many might worry that it might suddenly begin to limit their freedom in the future (hence "You can't trust MS!"), and perhaps this would be a legitimate concern. Or perhaps it would not. I don't claim to know, at almost 1am. But I do know this: Mockery is cheap. Careful thought is not. Perhaps that is why both sides of this issue portray the other side in such a radical light. Invest a bit of thought before posting again, please.
SIGSEGV caught, terminating
wait... not that kind of sig.
I often use the webmail part of exchange, works like a charm. Looks very similar to the actual outlook interface.
My college already does this with Hull college. What's so new? I thought everyone did this.
last I heard, Maine and Los Angeles were on the same continent.
...when all corporations move to Enterprise Gmail?
2+2=5 for very large values of 2.
Exchange isn't so problematic because it is written poorly. The problem is that it is so frequently administered poorly.
It's also problematic because exchange experts are few and far between. But then again how many sendmail or qmail experts are there?
I wonder though - are they using exchange just for e-mail? Or are they using it for scheduling, shared folders, etc.? I can't see implementing shared schedules university wide and only receiving 8 help desk calls. You'd think more than 8 people would be calling about how to use their software.
Aside from that - is it really a good idea to require an Outlook client for students? That pushes the student body away from Linux boxes as there is no exchange client for linux that I'm aware of.
Im not sure what special about this? replace University with DataCentre and this happens all the time. With SAN's and dark fibre, you can get machine A at datacentre A writing data directly to tapes in an automated library in DataCentre B, and vice versa. and they generally backup a hell of a lot more than email and websites.
Darwin Hawking Blackmore
unless you use firefox.
I use all three (outlook, IE and firefox) to read my mail and manage my calendar.
exchange in outlook and IE is verry similar but in firefox it's missing most of the basic functionality like flagging a message and decent search.
on the other hand, when not using firefox for it, it's actualy has several good features that I haven't found elswhere tho, the fact that it's easy to sync. the calendar between the exchange server and a pocket pc being one of them.
All indicators show that the human race is selectively breeding itself for stupidity.
A friend and I have been talking about this. He's on the west coast too, but about 1000 miles away, so my backups would probably be safe.
http://www.fluffy.co.uk/boxbackup/
Any one using this?
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Same can be said about Windows, can it not? Certainly "mature", right? And with 95% of the desktops running it, there is no argument, that it is anything, but a standard.
Just like the rest of Microsoft products, Exchange is very appealing on the surface of it and from the start. Then the real problems start creeping in and soon you can't buy new hardware fast enough to keep the piece of crap running. It does not help, that the messages are kept in "a database" (which means, they can not be operated on with regular file-tools) — because the authors could not trust the underlying FS (I guess, being able to run on top of FAT32 was one of the requirements).
For similar reasons, backing it all up requires their own tools too, or special "plug-ins" for the common backup software vendors.
There really is a point, beyond which one should stop trusting a person or a firm — presumption of guilt, so to speak. With everything, that Microsoft has put its customers through, anybody wishing to buy their products should be justifying the decision in front of extreme prejudice, not the other way around.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
big Exchange users probably really need help
from each other; what color ribbon should they
wear?
...Or Not.
:-(
I wish we could do a similar setup where I work(a hospital system). But, HIPPA regs would prob nail both parties/partners to the rulebook cross
Hmmm, a cross-continental backup system, set on college campuses.
Sounds like something the defense department might be interested in.
Wonder what they'll call it?
The warm fuzzy, feel good, parent article talks of 2 organizations able to share data files, something that has been going on for as long as "Off Site Storage" has been around. I am baffled, what is the point of this article?
"lively hood" - is that as opposed to a boring neighborhood?
Great news for those who want to follow: We run such a service for our customers. Using Askemos for tamper proofed process replication we run a network of nodes owned by several companies.
We have a peering agreement, no matter what dies, be it a host or even a hosting company, our customers websites continue to run - undisturbed.
> Sorry, but Exchange is simply install and forget
Wow, "simply install"? That's gotta be a freaking joke. Any email software that requires a bare minimum of THREE servers is so insanely not-simple. My single GroupWise server is a bit old, but it still runs GroupWise for quite a few clients (granted, not 14,000) and I don't get any calls for it except two people who managed to remove their "sent items" folder (and, as you said, spam-block checking).
It's called "Ghost", learn it, love it.
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A BOB is also essential in the case of a zombie invasion.
BTW, back in 1993, we used to hold annual DR swaps with another federal agency who had similar systems to our own. We also had an MOU to mirror critical data and use each others facilities in case our primary site was hosed. (or is that swarming with the walking undead?)
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Actually it requires 3 different 'server roles' that can be installed on separate servers or the same one. (there are two more optional roles too, one of these, the Edge Transport Role must be installed on a separate server, preferrably outside the domain for security purposes) It depends on the number of clients you have if you need multiple servers to handle the processing load.
And as far as smiplicity, you can just hit "Typical Installation" and it will install the required 3 roles and only ask for basic information. Then you just create mail rules and mailboxes, which you'd have to do with any e-mail system. Naturally, every network is different and you may have to do further customization or troubleshooting, but in a standard environment it's usually not necessary.
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Does ghost not require having an existing install from which to make an image?
Yes, so you spend all your time building one box and make it "perfect", then push the image to the other servers. You still had to build that one Notes box. A few hours to build the first, then 10 minutes to build the remainder. Your original point seemed to be the number of servers involved and the time it takes to set it up. My point was the additional servers do not take a significant investment in time. The 16 servers that make up our environment were all built in two days. After the initial build, the main bulk of the time was spent unboxing and disposing of the cardboard. Granted, before I joined the group they didn't use Ghost and that environment would've taken over three weeks to build. Me, I like to tell 'em it takes a week and then goof off for three days. I still come out ahead of what it would've taken them. :)
Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
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The "multiple servers" can't be ghosted because they have individual, specialized roles, and thus cloning them would only be useful as a backup. That's why I was confused on the Ghost thing.
No, but you can ghost a base OS image, then have it sysprep on first boot and install Exchange in its proper role. It was a bit more work than necessary for that many servers, but when a server goes down, I just have to plug my 2G flash key into any convenient machine, edit one of about 50 text files each describing a different server config and put the name and IP of the machine in. Then, plug it into the server and reboot. 20 minutes later, the server's up and running like it never went down.
Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
http://www.workorspoon.com