id Resolves DOSBox/GPL Issue

The British Gaming Blog is reporting that id Software has successfully resolved the minor issue it had with DOSBox, regarding older PC games being sold on Valve's Steam network. "The problem is all fixed up now with the proper licensing text in the game's readme. Developers working hand in hand with smaller application authors is not all that uncommon; SCUMM has worked closely with point and click masters Revolution and LucasArts to improve compatibility with their games, and hopefully this trend will continue so we can experience more old classics in the future."

Comments

Source

[Anonymous Coward]

So is the modified dosbox source code available somewhere now? From what I've understood, there were some kind of modifications to make it depend on and require steam(?)

Re:Source

[montyzooooma]

Probably the launcher requires Steam or the application itself but Dosbox is untouched.

Re:Source

[SCPRedMage]

Aye, I've heard the same; which, of course, seems just a tad silly, 'cause I can turn around and download the REAL DOSBox for free, and play without Steam... Or better yet, grab one of the COUNTLESS engine ports/updates for Wolf3d/Doom and play a BETTER version of the games...

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

According to "wd" on the Dosbox forum (link):

Binary file comparison shows that they are using the 0.70 release executable and added a wrapper. Means they did not modify the sources, just for clarification.

So Valve have added a launcher program to a vanilla Dosbox binary, a bit like UPX. They haven't modified any GPL source code, or even recompiled Dosbox. Whether this is still a GPL violation is a question for Eben Moglen and the other FSF lawyers, but the senior Dosbox developers are perfectly happy with the situation now, so it probably won't be pursued further.

Re:Source

[El_Muerte_TDS]

So it still works when you replace VALVe's DOSbox with the latest DOSbox release?

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

You still need the levels from the original games, and if you want to play more than the shareware episodes...

Re:Source

[FinchWorld]

It slikely yo can pick it up in your local independent games shop for a few pennies, just rummage through the bargin bin. Failing that Im sure theres user generated content to play instead.

Re:Source

[DrXym]

I expect DOSBox was already capable of running Quake, and any modifications by Steam are probably just in the configuration file to set its memory, Soundblaster, game image and so on.

Re:Source

[Rhaban]

But you still need the original game to do this in full legality. This offer is for people who don't already own the games and want to buy it. After that I think they can use any port they want to play them.

Re:Source

[DrXym]

Aye, I've heard the same; which, of course, seems just a tad silly, 'cause I can turn around and download the REAL DOSBox for free, and play without Steam... Or better yet, grab one of the COUNTLESS engine ports/updates for Wolf3d/Doom and play a BETTER version of the games...

Yes you can do that. So what's the problem? Pay Steam if you don't own the original and want hassle free installation, or do it yourself.

Re:Source

[Enderandrew]

That's probably true. However, if you didn't own Quake, then you could purchase it through Steam. The engine was open-sourced, but I do believe the game data files for the Quake series still need to be purchased. Frankly, I think it is a good thing that companies are providing a means to run old games rather than hand them to end-users and assume they can get the game to work under Windows.

id was wrong not to include the license, but I don't think they should be criticized for using DOSBox in the first place.

Re:Source

[SCPRedMage]

Well, yeah, they can. That's my point; the data's all there, and nothing's stopping anyone from using a port, or evening replacing the Steam version of DOSBox with the official one. In this particular case, Steam's copy protection as absolutely meaningless, which kinda makes it's inclusion a little silly; prompting possible legal issues on account of protection that doesn't protect anything? Why even bother?

Re:Source

[iainl]

I've been running WinQuake under XP for years. Admittedly I've not tried it with Vista yet, but to they use DOSBox for it, then? I'd have expected it was more just for the old stuff (Commander Keen and so on).

Re:Source

[spyrochaete]

You can still use those engine ports with the Steam version. Steam only protects the main executable, not the data WAD files.

Re:Source

[SCPRedMage]

Actually, Valve put a wrappper around the DOSBox executable, making it so that it wouldn't run if Steam wasn't present. Underneath that was an unmodified version of DOSBox, but there's still some users on the DOSBox forums claiming that this still constitutes a "modification" to it, and requires that they release the source to it, as well as the program that "links" to it, aka, STEAM.

Of course, since the senior DOSBox staff seems content with this, it doesn't look like this will come to anything more than a bunch of whiners spamming forums 'cause they think they've been "wronged"...

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

*sigh* More elitism. Most people don't KNOW what DOSBox is or have any idea what a 'port' is. This is for those people.

Get off your high horse. And nice job moding up worthless post people.

Re:Source

[SCPRedMage]

Aye, that it does.

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, are we reading the same post? 'Cause from here, the parent doesn't seem elitist, and it certainly wasn't modded up...

Re:Source

[SCPRedMage]

Actually, Steam isn't even doing THAT much; it's protecting the DOSBox executable, which you can easily get a non-DRM'd version of. The game executable is DRM-free...

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

In this particular case, Steam's copy protection as absolutely meaningless, which kinda makes it's inclusion a little silly

I'm guessing that this has more to do with making these games easily available to tons of gamers using a distribution method that they already have on their machines. I don't think "copy protection" plays anywhere into the equation.

Re:Source

[Applekid]

It is much better to light a candle than damn the darkness.

DOSBox

Re:Source

[Ultra64]

If you don't know what DOSBox or a 'port' is and you can't find out on your own with a search engine, then what the fuck are you doing on slashdot?
This is 'News for Nerds' not 'News for people who whine cause they don't understand something.'

Re:Source

[BobPaul]

Yes, it's a violation because the GPL states that if you distribute the binaries you must distribute the source and license as well. It does not matter if someone else is also distributing the source and license for the same product because you have no guarantee they will still be doing such a year from now, week from now, or even tomorrow.

For the source, it's acceptable to providing a snail mail or e-mail address users can write to and request the source. You can also provide a URL that allows one to download it.

Re:Source

[SCPRedMage]

Actually, if they used a stock version of DOSBox, it wouldn't have changed a thing; it would have been just as readily available. Instead, they went out of their to add a copy protect system that:
A. Just doesn't work.
and
B. Could potentially be a violation of the GPL.

Re:Source

[LWATCDR]

"Whether this is still a GPL violation is a question for Eben Moglen and the other FSF lawyers,"
Yea... Nothing smells like freedom like lawyers.

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

Valve are now shipping the Dosbox source code with every copy of the game. Just another fact that the article did not mention....

Re:Source

[cortana]

Whether this is still a GPL violation is a question for Eben Moglen and the other FSF lawyers, but the senior Dosbox developers are perfectly happy with the situation now, so it probably won't be pursued further. I must correct this. Whether this is a GPL violation is solely determined by the copyright holders of the work (i.e., Dosbox authors). The FSF has nothing to do with it (unless some of the infringed-upon code is owned by them).

Re:Source

[Chris Burke]

Well there are "some users" who are stupid on every forum.

A wrapper isn't modification or linking. If a proprietary piece of code "fork(); execv()"s a GPL program, it has not modified the program no matter what requirements the wrapper has before it will actually perform the execv(). If this wasn't the case, then double-clicking on a GPL application in Windows Explorer would constitute a GPL violation on the part of Microsoft.

Extending the already fallacious notion of "linking" to include steam itself is just another layer of dumb.

Re:Source

[Chris Burke]

Yes, it's a violation because the GPL states that if you distribute the binaries you must distribute the source and license as well.

Well aside from the fact that this is what Valve is doing (distributing the source), it is actually not a requirement of the GPL that you distribute the source along with the binaries. Here's the relevent part of the GPL:

3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

        a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
        b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
        c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

So merely offering to send you the source if you ask (not even necessarily through steam, they could require you to mail a request with a small shipping fee and then they mail you a CD with the source on it) would be sufficient. But practically speaking, since compared to the games your downloading the source to dosbox is most likely very small, it's just easier for them to comply by giving you the binaries and source at the same time.

Re:Source

[BobPaul]

So merely offering to send you the source if you ask (not even necessarily through steam, they could require you to mail a request with a small shipping fee and then they mail you a CD with the source on it) would be sufficient. But practically speaking, since compared to the games your downloading the source to dosbox is most likely very small, it's just easier for them to comply by giving you the binaries and source at the same time. Thanks for that. Read my full comment, as I already stated that.

Well aside from the fact that this is what Valve is doing (distributing the source) My comment was in a thread discussing whether or not it was a violation to begin with since the code had not even change. The crux of my comment was the GPL applies to any distribution, even if what you've not made changes before the distribution. That Valve/ID is no longer violating has no bearing to the conversation.

Thanks for playing!

Re:Source

[Chris Burke]

My comment was in a thread discussing whether or not it was a violation to begin with since the code had not even change. The crux of my comment was the GPL applies to any distribution, even if what you've not made changes before the distribution. That Valve/ID is no longer violating has no bearing to the conversation.

Ha ha, no it isn't! Your comment is in a thread discussing whether or not they are still violating the GPL by not distributing their "modified" source, not whether it was a GPL violation originally. That isn't in question, by anyone.

But thanks for playing.

Re:Source

[mrchaotica]

I don't think they should be criticized for using DOSBox in the first place.

Well, I think they would have been better off using one of the updated derivatives of the GPL'd Quake source to have a native Windows version instead of relying on DOS emulation at all. But I admit that that's only a minor criticism.

Re:Source

[sumdumass]

Um.. I think he was talking about all the people who aren't rolling their own outside of steam. I think it is a valid point because it not only would involve more people then those on slashdot but it might also encompass some on here too. A geek doesn't mean a geek like you. So lets drink a little less coffee and lighten up a little.

Re:Source

[Ultra64]

LESS COFFEE???!
But I'VE ONLY had 12 cups today.

Re:Source

[sumdumass]

Only 12 cups? And your already that jumpy and inpatient? Maybe I guessed wrong ;)

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, no. Tests were done with the DOSBox executable from Steam, and if Steam isn't running, it complains. Yet, the official DOSBox itself can run the application/games just fine. Or, in short, in some fashion the DOSBox executable is touched, but such doesn't even seem to stop the official DOSBox from working. The only question then is if it's a recompilation or a wrapper. In either case, DOSBox's source needs to be included or a written offer for the source needs to be provided.

Re:Source

[Anonymous Coward]

It is much better to light a candle than damn the darkness.

Unless you're one of those people who, like me, prefers to light a candle and damn the darkness! :)

Re:Source

[Raenex]

A wrapper isn't modification or linking. But arguably a wrapper distributed with a GPL'd program constitutes a "work based on the Program". That's why so many companies are releasing GPL'd software and offering a non-GPL'd commercial license.

If this wasn't the case, then double-clicking on a GPL application in Windows Explorer would constitute a GPL violation on the part of Microsoft. That's different, because Microsoft is not distributing GPL applications as part of Windows.

Re:The Nightmare Of Dealing With Kooky Licenses

[Calinous]

Id software will suffer long, and the result on their bottom line will be degraded greatly. They might even go out of business, considering the costs the inclusion of the text of the licensing agreement of DosBox in their readme will incur.

It helps to read the article

[Enderandrew]

The original complaint was merely that the license wasn't included. If you distribute GPL material I do believe you are required to distribute a copy of the license with it.

id and the DOSBox crew are apparently all happy now, and all they had to do was include the license with the distribution, as noted in the article.

Re:It helps to read the article

[Anonymous Coward]

The post that I was responding to was asking about the possibly unresolved issue regarding the call to "steam.dll" that was embedded in the "dosbox.exe" program. This issue was not even mentioned in the article. The article also doesn't mention that Valve are now distributing the dosbox source code with every copy of the game.

This is true

[thedrx]

Developers working hand in hand with smaller application authors is not all that uncommon

That's true. I know it's offtopic, but for example Sega, in their old game compilations (like Sonic Mega Collection+ etc) always use open source emulators, like Gens.

Re:This is true

[Sycraft-fu]

Not really. What happened was that Sega hired Steve Snake who made KEGA et al and had him modify his emulator for them. However they didn't make him sign an exclusive or anything so while he hasn't released the special one he wrote for them he's allowed to use his knowledge to release free ones (which he's done).

Already Resolved

[kaleco]

This issue was already resolved when the violation story was posted. This story would have been better served as a Slashback article.

Re:Already Resolved

[Anonymous Coward]

This issue was already resolved when the violation story was posted.

So they're distributing the source now, and not merely adding in the License file?

Correction to parent

[codefrog]

Actually at least the most recent titles Sega Genesis Collection (PS2/PSP) and Sega Vintage Collection (Xbox 360 Live Arcade) definitely do _not_ use open source emulation. Digital Eclipse (aka Backbone) has proprietary emulation code which is used in many many emulation compilations. Open source emulation code (such as Gens) tends to rely on a patchwork of code from various sources (68000 core, Z80 core, sound chips, and so on) which would make it extremely difficult (or impossible) to properly license it as a package for commercial release.

Re:Correction to parent

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, sega used their own closed-source genesis emulator for some editions of the japanese dreamcast web browser (which included some sega genesis game roms) back in 2000 or so.

Re:Correction to parent

[Fred Or Alive]

I'm sure I read that the Sega Smash Pack used a version of Kgen9x though. IIRC both Kgen and SSP have the same error on Sonic The Hedgehog's title screen (Sonic's torso is overlaid over the rest of the logo, rather than being under it).

I don't know about newer stuff though...

Re:Correction to parent

[Anonymous Coward]

The error on StH's title screen is because the limit of number of sprites per line isn't emulated. It's a common ommision among fledgling emulators.

But Smash Pack's emulator WAS written by the guy who wrote Kgen98/Kega/Fusion, Steve Snake. I'm not sure if it's Kgen98 under license, a new emulator under commision, or whatever.

Sonic Mega Collection runs on Gens, licensed under non-GPL from Stéphane Dallongeville, who wrote the entirety of vanilla Gens from scratch. (Sega wasn't able to figure out his Sega CD code in time to put Sonic CD on Mega Collection. Sonic CD in Sonic Gems Collection uses a port of the PC version.)

Re:Correction to parent

[Anonymous Coward]

'the entirety' here doesn't seem to include the CPU emulation -

Gens uses
* Starscream 680x0 emulation library by Neill Corlett
* RAZE Z80 core by Richard Mitton

http://gens.consolemul.com/genstech.shtml

Non-issue

[Xiph]

This really was a no-brainer non-issue from the start.
It's obvious that ID are proponents of open software.
The dosbox forums were not half-way as upset as slashdot.
ID-software started fixing this, even before the /. article hit the frontpage.

Nothing to see here, or for that matter in the previous article, move along.

Re:Non-issue

[maniac/dev/null]

ID-software started fixing this, even before the /. article hit the frontpage.

Copy GPL, paste into readme.txt. I still don't get why people where so upset in the first place.

Re:Non-issue

[jonadab]

> I still don't get why people where so upset in the first place.

Oh, that's easy. People like to get upset. Any excuse will do.

id still committed to open source

[CrusadeR]

Here's an exchange from the QuakeCon keynote last Friday:

Audience member:
"I wanted to say thank you for open-sourcing the Quake 3 engine, it's made a huge difference to the community. I wanted to ask your opinion about the future of Linux and open source gaming."

John Carmack:
"I do take a great deal of personal pride and satisfaction with what I've been able to do with getting so much of the stuff out. Sometimes I think about it, and while I know it's not something I'm generally considered for, I may be one of the most prolific open source authors considering all the code that I've written over the last 15 years that I've made open source, or have made open source there. I do think it's very valuable. I'm very happy when I see both user gaming community stuff, or research universities, or people doing simulation tests, or bringing up things. Every new piece of hardware ends up having Doom or Quake titles used as an early form of test application. So I'm very happy to have done that. It's certainly going to continue. I mean I won't commit to a date, but the Doom 3 stuff will be open source. We still make those decisions even today when we're doing the Rage code when we have decisions about "do we want to integrate some other vendor's solution, some proprietary code into this". And the answer's usually no, because eventually id Tech 5 is going to be open source also. This is still the law of the land at id, that the policy is that we're not going to integrate stuff that's going to make it impossible for us to do an eventual open source release. We can argue the exact pros and cons from a pure business standpoint on it, and I can at least make some, perhaps somewhat, contrived cases that I think it's good for the business, but as a personal conviction it's still pretty important to me and I'm standing by that."

Source: http://www.3ddownloads.com/Action/Rage/Movies/john _carmack-quakecon-keynote-2007.mp3 (about 1 hour 25 minutes in)

Re:id still committed to open source

[Chris Burke]

Ah, God bless people like Carmack, industry leaders with enough clout in their companies that they can actually stick to their principles even if it isn't clear that said principle is good for business!

Re:id still committed to open source

[Walkingshark]

I'm glad that Carmack isn't evil.

Who'd have thought this generation's Einstein would be making video games?

Re:id still committed to open source

[blahplusplus]

"because eventually id Tech 5 is going to be open source also. "

I have to say that John is a visionary, I'm glad he's not so popertarian or wrapped in idealogy he cannot see the bigger picture in adding to the spread, understanding and improvement of human knowledge.

Re:id still committed to open source

[Anonymous Coward]

It *is* good for businesses. Licensees that absolutely have to have a closed source platform for whatever reason will gravitate toward the newer and more expensive engine, and id only has to provide support for that one. Meanwhile, free PR and advertising through something that doesn't pull in a significant revenue stream anymore.

Unfortunately their licensing stream is drying up. The only AAA licensee of the Doom3 engine was what, Prey?

Re:id still committed to open source

[friedmud]

"Unfortunately their licensing stream is drying up. The only AAA licensee of the Doom3 engine was what, Prey?"

Well... that and Doom3 of course... and Quake4 wasn't that much of a modification... and a slight modification of that creates Enemy Territory: Quake Wars.

Doom3 sold millions of copies, and it was an internal project so that generates HUGE bucks for id. ETQW will also sell millions. How many million+ copy games do you need to sustain a fairly small company? Not many.

And if you go to Quakecon you can see the other stuff they work on as well... like the (relatively) new line of cell-phone games and even a Nintendo DS game that's coming out this year as well as movie deals (they announced a Wolfenstein movie at Quakecon). In general, I'd say that id isn't hurting for cash. Sure, some engines like the HL2 engine from Valve have started doing better recently... but I don't think it's making a huge impact on id.

Friedmud

Re:id still committed to open source

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, I really hope that was a joke. I've enjoyed his games as much as the next guy, but if Carmack is "this generation's Einstein", then this generation is pretty pathetic. Einstein made scientific discoveries and observations considered amongst the most important ones made in the 20th century.

Something like "this generation's Mozart" would be more appropriate; Carmack is a very talented programmer and game designer who uses his skills to entertain people. (I still think that would be a huge exaggeration, though: I doubt people will be playing the original Doom and Quake in 300 years to the extent that people are listening to and reinterpreting Mozart's music today.)

Re:The Nightmare Of Dealing With Kooky Licenses

[cluke]

Yes, I bet they are kicking themselves they didn't spend 6 man-months or more of dev and testing time creating their own emulator!

Re:The Nightmare Of Dealing With Kooky Licenses

[Calinous]

I don't usually do this, but the temptation of the parent's post was too great.
      I really should browse at +1 when I'm not having mod points

Curious... what about GPL3?

[Anonymous Coward]

Would GPL3 make such wrappers illegal?

DosBOX configurations file fix

[DimGeo]

Slightly off-topic. Here's a fix I wrote that patches the conf files of DoxBox inside Steam. Sorry for the code, wrote at 1-2 am last night and was a bit under influence. Ignore the silly and/or slow parts. SteamIDDosBoxFix.zip . Fixed are: aspect ratio under 1280x1024 TFT displays, sound stuttering, mouse sensitivity. You can edit dosbox.conf yourself, the fix simply replaces your entries into all .conf files (while keeping their format) it can find under Steam's install dir (which is taken from the registry).

FOSSie rage

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey man, quit trying to tame the FOSSie outrage.

We don't have any successful products- a false sense of superiority is all we have left.

Actually the opposite

[huckamania]

This is probably the dream situation. First, the GPL developers actually recognize that id and steam using their stuff is a good thing. Second, id and steam didn't integrate any of the GPL stuff into their own base.

Take either of those two things away and this situation can quickly approach nightmare levels from a corporate perspective. Eventually, there is going to be a very high profile case where some developer at some company gets caught stealing gpl code after integrating it into their companies product line. It's happening already, just no one has got caught yet.

I'm sure the company will blame the developer. That may be their main line of defence. I wonder if removing the offending code will work, after all, that's what everyone says they'll do if MS ever tries to enforce a patent. I don't think that would work in either case (seriously, if you remove code then you are admitting infringement, maybe not a good strategy).

So far, most of these GPL violations have been minor, not that you'd know it on slashdot.

Thanks John!

[Anonymous Coward]

I know Carmack has a Slashdot account, though he doesn't post much and I have no idea if he'll read this or not, but I just want to say thanks! I'm sure that your code has helped a lot of people and that many have learned from it.

I still remember the discussion about the fast inverse square root function. I have a math degree, but I learned quite a bit. (Although I'd still like to know _how_ you all came up with that... it was hard enough to understand it.)

The issue has not been resolved.

[SETIGuy]

Regardless of the article the issue has not been resolved, and I hope gpl-violations.org presses the issue.

Not distributing the license text with the binary was only one issue, and a minor one at that. The larger issue is that they are distributing a modified and copy protected DOSBox without providing the modified source code, and the build files required to build the version they distribute. That's a definite violation of the GPL that still needs to be remedied.

The modified DOSBox binary is also linked with proprietary libraries that are required for operation of the program. Those libraries would also need to be released under a GPL compatible license in order for this distribution to comply with the GPL. Last time I checked, DOSBox contained some code from another GPL DOS emulator project to which I have contributed. It's possible that I have legal standing regarding this issue whether other contributors to DOSBox wish to press the point or not.

I think it's unlikely that the issue will be resolved any time soon without major changes to the way DOSBox is distributed via Steam.

Re:The issue has not been resolved.

[Tacvek]

They have used a minimalistic wrapper around the main executable. That wrapper simply checks the steam.dll. The main executable is not modified. They distribute the source to the main executable. Replacing the wrapped executable with the main executable works fine. (The main executable is a build of the unmodified DOSBox source).

Nobody cares that they can't wrap the executable in the same way because it makes no difference.

Disclaimer: The above is based on other people's comments in this article. I have no firsthand knowledge of this.

Re:The issue has not been resolved.

[SETIGuy]

They have used a minimalistic wrapper around the main executable.

That makes no difference unless the wrapper can be removed and the executable extracted without needing to be a subscriber. Otherwise it's the same as linking in my book. And if I'm an author, it's my book that counts.

Re:The issue has not been resolved.

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you an author?

Didn't think so.

Re:The issue has not been resolved.

[DimGeo]

From what the gp said, yes, he is.

Not quite accurate

[codefrog]

(farther and farther off topic)
Actually, the Genesis emulation for SGC was created 'from scratch' by Digital Eclipse (starting with existing 68k and Z80 cores). Steve Snake was indeed involved, primarily in the area of sound emulation, but the main emulation was not based on his fabulous Kega work.

troll

[Devir]

the above poster is trolling and is not worth a reply.