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Linux Foundation Calls for 'Respect for Microsoft'
kripkenstein writes "Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft. From the VNU article: 'Open source vendors have to recognize that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems. This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"
So he's essentially saying I should respect Microsoft for thinking up all the dirty tricks it used to get it's monopoly in the first place. ... I am not convinced.
Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
like i have respect for SCO
So what he's saying is that Linux excels at being good software, while Microsoft only excel at marketing practices? Sounds like a double-edged compliment to Microsoft to me!
I'm supposed to respect them because they're bigger than everyone else and thus can put more money into marketing and abuse their monopoly to crush competitors with underhanded tactics? How about they stop making shitty software and play nice with everyone else? Maybe I'd respect them then, but I'll certainly not respect them for what they do now.
Yeah, acknowledging MS's strengths is a lot like going to your grandparents 50th wedding anniversary; you're thankful for the legacy that they've left behind but at 70 years old and playing Friday night bingo, they're not quite relevant in the same way they use to be.
MS has lost it's way ( as documented in Joel's "How Microsoft Lost the API War" ) and with applications moving more towards the web as a platform, things don't look to improve.
Jim
RunFatBoy ( http://www.runfatboy.net/ ) - Exercise for the rest of us.
Poking fun at them is only a sign of overconfidence as Luke once said to Darth Vadar & Emperor Palpatine Your overconfidence is your weakness.
My work here is dung.
This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it. "There are some things that Windows does pretty well," Zemlin said. Microsoft for instance has excelled in marketing the operating system, and has a good track record in fending off competition.'"
Saying all Microsoft has ever done well is marketing and fending off competition is setting an example for not ridiculing them? I believe he's just being sarcastic.
Nah the summary states that Microsoft and Windows will form a duopoly. Sounds about right. :(
Microsoft operates in the real world - in the real world I only give respect to those who have earned my respect, or who have it by default and have done nothing to lost it; Microsoft fits neither of these to me.
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
You should also respect them for publicly claiming that Linux "violates" X patents owned by Microsoft.
And that anyone using Linux (unless specially licensed) owes Microsoft some money.
And for Microsoft's continuing attempts to kill / marginalize the ODF standard.
Yes, Microsoft deserves your respect and not your disgust. So says an executive from a company that has purchased a "partnership" with Microsoft.
Yeah. I read it on the Internet so it must be true!
- Henrik
- when the Shadows descend -
That's akin to telling the viewers of Fox News that it's important to "stop making fun of liberals, because they've here to stay, and they've made important contributions to the progress of the world at large".
No matter how important a role some group plays towards making something else important work, the nature of humans and comedy are going to have everyone and everything important to everyone mocked constantly. And no matter how bad that paints a picture of the large groups who mock other groups as part of that process - people are going to be mocking eachother as long as mental associations can be made.
The message behind this suggestion seems to be more a message to "act more professional people, you're making us look like bozos". Yes... it's nice to imagine sometimes that a loose community of groups and individuals didn't have to act exactly like the kind of human grouping it is. But we are humans, and Windows IS fun to make fun of, and most of us say that as Windows users.
Yes, Windows has contributed much for everyday users of computers - it has made many things possible that may not have been possible otherwise, and it will continue to be the best path towards many kinds of progress for the everyday use of computers going forward for the immediately foreseeable future... but it's still contains an endless variety of deep flaws that both mock the underlying nature (DRM motivations, artificially segmenting functionality for legal/marketing needs) of the software, and the human nature that lies behind these things, and our reaction to them.
Ryan Fenton
Well much of their legacy tech is crap (see WinAPI). But .Net, DirectX, Visual Studio are excellent projects. So, I have no problem with MS tech. I do have a problem with their attitude towards others (that is, crush them and grab every single dollar in the market). MS got unpopular because of their actions, not their tech.
This sig does not contain any SCO code.
when they start respecting Open Source and Open Standards.
I too would respect the 400 lb. gorilla, though mostly by keeping my distance.
He's absolutely right on other points as well. If Linux rises to desktop prominence, against a competitor that has a 95% market share on the desktop (a practical monopoly), then the next logical step must be a duopoly, and it is doubtful that Microsoft will ever "go away." They will likely change the way they do business, like IBM did. Perhaps they will produce their own "open source" products, and then the Linux/FOSS community had better be ready for it, because they certainly won't be free software.
Expect it.
They've already proven the first axiom of business. Courts are the slowest moving thing on the planet. Business decisions will always outpace court decisions. That's how they got away with their illegal actions to slaughter STAC and Netscape. It didn't matter by the time the courts had decided. That's how Microsoft managed to pen a patent agreement with Novell, who won the MS-funded patent case against SCO, before the SCO case was even over. Did anyone notice that?
They're moving faster than anyone can litigate. Being right is not good enough here. You have to be right, clever, and decisive. If you can be ethical too, good for you, but ethical doesn't tend to work against an unethical opponent. Try winning a fair fight against a guy who is willing to kick you in the crotch and throw sand in your face some time.
Developers had better keep a careful eye on this gorilla, or you're going to end up working for him. Respect the gorilla.
--
Toro
"Jim Zemlin (executive director for the Linux Foundation) gave a talk at LinuxWorld saying that the open source community should stop poking fun at Microsoft."
really??? how about MS stop lying about Linux and stop putting small companies out of business.
There are reasons to respect Microsoft, but it's not because of their marketing or the quality of their software.
One should respect MS as a relationship with MS could be compared to a relationship with any other vendor.
A typical non-OSS user won't exactly be enchanted if they see the OSS community treating another company like degenerates. They don't know the difference between MS and any other company, all they see is OSS devs/users treating a company like crap. If you take a one-sided view, that makes OSS devs/users look bad. That's probably the only view they'll be taking since they haven't worshipped at the church of FLOSS.
If you look at the civil rights movement, Martin Luther King encouraged all to be non-violent, not carry weapons, and not give any excuse for others to even mistake them for wanting to possibly even slightly exhibit any negative behaviour or thoughts. That's to take any power away from the enemy, as they can't say anything if there's nothing for them to point out.
Another reason is that truth can come from anywhere, and a good argument will stand no matter who makes it. If we simply expect everything out of MS to be garbage, then we will also miss any jewels, and that's just hurting ourselves.
Anyway look. Bottom line is to be better than MS, we can't let ourselves go by saying "Oh, well, MS fucks up, we can too, just not as bad." That's pretty asinine. Nope. To be better than MS, we have to actually be better than them, not stoop just as low as them.
Twinstiq, game news
Linux geeks should just treat Microsoft the way the Chinese government treats the US Government... a necessary enemy. Only there as a stepping stone to sovereignty or self sufficiency. Let them tout themselves, let them think they're winning, and then, when the chips are down, yank the last card from their house of cards... and watch them fall.
Sun Tzu was right though, you can either wean yourself off the enemy and create your own destiny, or you can destroy Darth Vader and take his place at the Emperor's side. Either you choose a side, or you don't play their game. Most Linux geeks have chosen a side, and will eventually find themselves in Darth Vader's shoes. It is inevitable when one takes the path of confrontation. One monster must be created to oppose the existing one, unless the wise man fends off the monster and lets it die of its own irrelevance.
" What luck for rulers that men do not think" - Adolf Hitler
Yes they are. Here's why:
#1. The registry. It's too fucking brittle AND it is constantly open by Windows AND it is not automatically replicated X times over Y days so you can recover when it does break. And it will, eventually, break.
#2. Which is why Microsoft shops advocate the "Wipe & Reload" method of "support". It broke, don't spend time trying to fix it. Fixing it is not an option. Wipe it and reload the "base image" that your shop uses. Sure it will take 30 - 60 minutes, but even if you have to do that for a dozen machines a week, it's still faster than finding the real problems.
#3. Viruses, trojans & worms. At least with Linux I can boot from a "Live CD" and chroot the local hard drive and check it / edit it to remove problems. WITHOUT losing all the data that the user has saved to it (see #2 above).
#4. No packaging system (see Debian & Ubuntu). And don't start going on about how you can make a "package" in Windows. That just shows you don't know what you're talking about. In Windows ANY app can replace ANY file when you install it. Under a real package management system, each file is owned by one AND ONLY ONE package. That file is NOT replaced unless you upgrade/remove the package that owns it. (or choose "force" and know that you're probably fucking up your system)
Some of the end-users prefer Windows. That's fine. It's personal choice. But it's still a "shitty" operating system based upon "shitty" decisions.
OS X is only part of a package. You cannot use it by itself, so it is not really an operating system available for general use, it is part of a niche product.
I bet he thinks that if we're nice to them, they'll be nice to us.
Yeah. That didn't work in Kindergarten, and it doesn't work now.
From TFA: "Open source vendors have to recognise that Windows is here to stay and that together with Microsoft it will form a duopoly in the market for operating systems."
Um, what abour Mac OS X? You know, that "other" OS with a higher market share than Linux?
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
by that standard, HPU/X, Solaris and SunOS,Irix and all the DEC Unixes weren't operating systems either.
The provision of "general use" is unecessary. A platform is a platform.
Don't blame me, I voted for Baltar.
As long as they claim to have the most secure operating system ever: No.
As long as they count one defect against Linux multiple times in comparisons: No.
As long as they treat paying customers like criminals: No.
As long as their software comes without a warranty and they use a lack of a Linux warranty as a reason to not use OSS: No.
As long as they do not count "maintenance windows" as part of downtime in their uptime/availability comparisons: No.
As long as their marketing literature is based on lies/FUD rather than facts: No.
As long as their 2007 "3D desktop"'s features barely matches that of what OS X could do in 2003: No. Want a proper 3D desktop? Check out XGL and Beryl on Linux, 3D Desktop on OS X.
I think we'll be making fun of Microsoft for years to come, as long as they keep up their FUD and they keep promoting minor cosmetic changes, DRM, and annoying features like [CANCEL] [CONTINUE] as innovations.
The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
Microsoft's continual lying and dirty tricks indicates a gross lack of integrity at the very top. You cannot respect someone you cannot trust, and still respect yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect
Microsoft has gone out of its way continually to avoid fair competition, accountability for its own illegal actions, etc. They are unredeemable and should be treated as pariahs, not lionized (unless you're a dickhead* nicknamed "Pretenderle", the MoGTroll, or "Lyin' Lyons").*WARNING - link is "NSA" - "Not Safe Anywhere"
I'm sorry. All I get out of this article, and Zemlin's statement, is pure sarcasm. Things Microsoft does well, including good marketing and chasing off competition? If that's a complement, that's really underhanded.
A complement would be "Microsoft did a great job signing up and restricting certain hardware companies to make drivers only for their own operating system..." wait, no, that's not a complement at all. Oh, here's one: "Microsoft did an excellent job copying core functionality of the Mac during the genesis of their own GUI..." Oh, wait, sorry, that's not a complement either.
Seriously, a complement and an embrace would be something along the lines of "Gee, we really need to respect Microsoft's dedication to creating a really great foundation of tools for third party developers, and maybe see if we can do that too."
I guess maybe because I AM a developer and not a marketer, I just don't see the respect in "they market better than us".
We don't have to respect Microsoft, but we should discuss our differences in a respectful manner. I used to attend Comdex in Vegas regularly several years ago. I remember the first year they had a Linux area on display. Some of the "vendors" that were representing Linux and OSS were extremely unprofessional. They acted more like the anti-Vietnam protesters of the 70's. I did not have any issue with their point of view but as a believer in OSS I was embarrassed by their behavior and could see the negative impact that it was having on those who did not know a lot about OSS. So my recommendation is that in professional work settings and business oriented discussion boards and forums, we should act like professionals and clearly articulate our point of views based on research and personal experiences. On sites like Slashdot, Digg, Delicious, etc. it is ok to flame although there is little to gain from it. Acting like a whiny child on a Computerworld.com or CIO.com website is really bad for OSS.
"This also requires that the Linux community respects Microsoft rather than ridicule it."
He's another computer professional with zero social experience. People don't like Microsoft because Microsoft is abusive. For example:
Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" or
"The whole world is our beta tester" or
"We can release sloppy, sloppy code because we have a virtual monopoly" or
"Security vulnerabilities make us money because many people with infected computers buy new computers, and therefore buy another copy of Windows".
Bill Gates is the Chief of Grief in the computer world. When you partner with Microsoft, you are partnering with someone who will be partly an enemy if that makes more money.
Yes, Windows has contributed much for everyday users of computers - it has made many things possible that may not have been possible otherwise
But there were many, many other ways to do it and many, many
other people who would have done it, and were working on it,
until they were squashed.
We may have to get on with life, but we should never forget
what Microsoft did to get where they are.
It's surely a joke, right?
I mean, there are some things Microsoft have done right. You can't say anything about their gaming tools, for one thing. So this Jim Zemlin guy must be some kind of very sarcastic hatemonger :)
I went to 4 LinuxWorld Expos in San Francisco, where I live. I enjoyed the first two, primarily because of the conferences, and the camaraderie. Once I get through two years of the conferences, the following years' repeats of the same conference topics was uninteresting. After the large corporations started getting tons of floor space, it became even less interesting (seeing the Novell Sales Guys hype up SUSE to with absurd marketing-speak was disheartening). Now, with this statement, it becomes very clear that LinuxWorld isn't for people who like Linux for it's own sake, and I'm not sad I haven't gone for the last couple years. It's now just for people who like and admire money and large corporations, and see F/OSS and Linux as the way to get more cash. Not that that is so bad, but it isn't why I'm interested in Linux. Why not rename this conference "LinuxMoneyWorld"?
Aren't you guys getting a little pedantic? He didn't say OS-X "wasn't an OS" -- he said it "wasn't an OS available for general use"
And he has a point as well -- OS-X has never been seriously positioned as a server OS like AIX, HP-UX, etc. It's not realistic to expect Apple to become a major server OS player with the machines they sell right now.
Even on the desktop - Apples market share might be increasing but it's very hard to see them go past 10 or 20% of the market. You can argue both ways about whether that needs to be counted or not (in said duopoly).
The reason I say Apple's share is unlikely to increase past that point: It's because they don't license OS-X for use on PCs (or create a Mac spec and license it out). That's a huge problem for the h/w industry. If Apple were to get, say, 80% of the market and for this year they only offer nVidia cards and Intel processors in their machines, well, AMD will go bankrupt. If they stick with Intel wifi chips, Atheros might go bankrupt. Basically the whole industry will have to come up with a way of ramping up and scaling down production as and when their products get selected/deselected for use in Apple's lines -- if not, the entire computer hardware industry will become a one-horse-race for any component that goes into a computer.
According to this mailing list post, he's a marketing guy. Since when do we listen to marketing guys on slashdot now? Did I miss the memo or what?
Why should the Linux Foundation be counseling respect for an organization that has for years smeared Linux at every opportunity and has stated that it considers F/OSS generally un-American? Microsoft has done and has stated it intends to keep doing all in its power to bring FOSS down wherever it can. Frankly I think the Foundation should be called to task for such a treasonous pronoucement.