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Baiji River Dolphin May or May Not Be Extinct
ozmanjusri writes "Major news outlets are reporting that after 20 million years, Baiji (Yangtze River Dolphin) are now officially extinct. This is apparently actually old news; it was announced on a Baiji conservation website in December of last year. One outlet, though, is claiming they may not quite be completely dead yet. The same scientist that filed the report leading the the declaration of extinction is still hopeful: '"This is only one survey and...you can't have a sample in a survey, so you cannot say the baiji all is gone by the result of only one survey," he said. "For example, there is some side channels or some tributaries [where] we cannot go because of a restriction of navigation rules, and also we don't survey during the night-time so we may miss some animals in the Yangtze River." Professor Ding says based on anecdotal evidence, he remains confident the dolphins are still out there. "I'm pretty much sure there are a few of them left somewhere in the Yangtze River," he said. "I keep receiving reports from fishermen, they say they saw a couple of baiji somewhere, sometime."'"
Seriously, what is wrong with you people? Are you purposely making fun of yourselves? Because to those of us who aren't in on the joke, which is most of us I guess, it looks like the site is run by a bunch of fucking dumbasses.
After the commercials, "Human Beings May or May Not Be Extinct"!
that there were 11 in captivity a few years back (they all died), they were trying to breed them in captivity. but they took tissue samples
please, please, please someone tell me the chinese have some of those tissue samples in liquid nitrogen. given some technological progress then, we might be able to bring the baiji back to life in a century or so
otherwise, the chinese deserve international sanctions for losing some of our shared world species diversity. it should be a un mandate with economic consequences that countries are responsible for the lifeblood of the species in their territories
not to mention the fact the chinese need to apologize to their ancestors for losing a part of their heritage. the baiji is a potent chinese symbol to the chinese themselves, and all of china is a little diminished today if the chinese actually neglected something so important to their national identity to the point of losing it permanently. china's history with environmental protection is deplorable. this takes it to the level of moral outrage
but nevermind this cranky westerner. i'll bet my life any random chinese person could better articulate the shame and anger at this horrible crime and tragedy, against china, by the chinese themselves
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Two-humped camels may or may not be extinct!
Walruses may or may not be extinct!
Jellyfish may or may not be extinct!
The common house cat may or may not be extinct!
Triceratops may or may not be extinct!
Comment of the year
Or maybe not. But probably. Not. On the other hand... of course, if you.. no, no, they're dead. I think. -The Thinker
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Well, who's going to open the box and find out if the dolphins are dead or if they're cats?
JADBP
Schroedinger would be proud and Einstein would piss his pants!!!... I daresay
No, they're pining for the fjords.
Where is the Undo button for my life? Not to mention the Esc key.
Or maybe you spelled "Niel" wrong.
ResidntGeek
I guess I'd better save the one I have in my freezer for a really special dinner, because I won't have to get another one. And the dolphin they're putting in those little cans is often adulterated with tuna, which spoils it in my opinion.
No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
How thorough do these surveys have to be to finally declare a species extinct? I mean, there's a lot of water, isn't there? I mean, I know this isn't the middle of the ocean, but I'm sure there's a lot of space to cover. Logically speaking, to confidently say something is extinct, wouldn't that require a proof of exhaustion. Literally just checking every possible place and not finding any evidence of the animal. I mean, if they haven't checked everywhere, I don't think they should be saying 'extinct' just yet. If this guy is saying there's hope based on the amount of area they haven't checked, I'm guessing that means its a large area. I think its a bit premature. It's not like there haven't been premature announcements of extinction on species before: http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/04/28/woodpec ker/index.html and http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/discoveries/2 006-03-09-rat-squirrel-survivor_x.htm
See, there's a big difference between mostly extinct, and all extinct. Now, mostly extinct: they're slightly not-extinct. All extinct, well, with all extinct, there's usually only one thing that you can do...
In all seriousness, with so few members of the species, they're effectively extinct, and that's what counts. There may be one or two, but there's zero chance they'll balloon into a viable population. Even if we save genetic samples, we're decades, if not centuries, away from being able to reproduce an entire species, if we can even do that. Even if we have tissue samples from twenty different dolphins, and reproduce them through some hypothetical cloning technique, I'm not convinced that's enough genetic diversity to sustain the species.
That may or may not be true.
What?
Hi. Chinese guy here. And yeah, you are being patronizing.
It's true that the baiji are somewhat significant in Chinese culture, but to the point you seem to think it is. Personally nobody I knew ever thought about them, or indeed were aware of them outside of field trips to some science museum. The whole "ancestors placed importance in baiji" and "Chinese venerate ancestors" is just one big non-sequitor I'm not even going to touch.
Keep in mind that the significance of the river dolphins was limited to an isolated geographical region, where the vast majority of Chinese did *not* reside. Maybe there are people living on the banks of the yangtze mourning their loss, but for the other 99.99% of Chinese people out there, things haven't changed a bit.
Now... Regarding your previous comment. While it's certainly unfortunate and sad that the baiji have been killed off due to human actions, in the end who is responsible? Want to dig Mao out of the ground and put him on trial for instituting the Great Leap Forward that encouraged such reckless killings? Good luck with that. In the end, commercial fisheries, massively increased boat traffic, and the construction of the Three Gorges Dam were primary contributors to the extinction of these dolphins. IMHO all of these have been critical to raising the standard of living and quality of life for the Chinese people. I wish we could have both (human prosperity and ecological conservation), and perhaps we could have under more effective leadership or more resources, but those were the cards we were dealt.
What would a serious conservation effort require to preserve these creatures? Stop using the Yangtze as an industry shipping lane? Spew even more toxic gases into the atmosphere by constructing the huge number of fuel-burning power plants that the Three Gorges Dam could replace? Stop fishing the Yangtze and deny a critical food source for the local population? I hate to be so human-ist about everything, but between the survival of humans the the survival of a bunch of dolphins, it's pretty clear which I pick.
So now the baiji are (probably) all dead. What did we receive out of that deal? Millions of Chinese are now far more prosperous than they were before. Remote regions are no longer starving, and many now have access to proper food, shelter, and medicine. The situation in China, especially the rural areas, is not pretty, but for the most part it's a lot better than it was before.
you had me at #!
Extinction is pretty serious, regardless of whether that species matters to us or not. Congratulations, you've discovered a whole new category of "shallow"... worsened by the fact that apparently the main "cultural significance" of this animal is/was that it's tasty enough to fish into extinction. There's a Catch-22 for you.
I'm by no means a greasy-haired wild-eyed foaming-at-the-mouth green-nazi hippie douchebag, pretty nearly the opposite in fact, and I certainly don't buy into the "stewards of the planet" bullshit, but extinction that is pretty clearly caused by human activity -- worse yet, incidental and easily avoided activity -- still makes me queasy.
The point I'm trying to make is that extinction is so serious that whether the species was useful or important to us or not is completely irrelevant.
Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005
how much additional effort would it have taken the chinese to save the dolphin from extinction?
you seem to say that economic development, the three gorges damn, etc.: it required the dolphin go extinct. really? so china can exert great effort to build a damn, but not the tiniest of effort to save a dolphin?
fact is, it is now the eternal shame of the chinese for killing this creature. not according to this westerner. don't ask me, ask your grandchildren
they won't mind at all that your poor choices means the china they inherit is permanently reduced
please: i want you to tell me with your obvious conscience free certainty about everything being great and wonderful about modern china that your grandchildren would never do that
go ahead, tell us all about how no mistake was made
(snicker)
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It is sad that China cannot learn from the mistakes of the west. Your China is like America in the 1950s. All properity, all industry, no ecology. In 40 years, China and the world will be weeping at the ecological damage you have wrought upon the earth. Already you are poisoning your own people with smog. The Three Gorges Dam is an environmental, archaeological, and socioeconomic disaster. Important archaeological sites have been submerged, whole towns have been moved, and the Yangtze ecosystem will be forever altered. The Chinese government is ignorant, foolish, and power-hungry. This isn't much different than many western governments, but they have the benefit of some amount of public accountability due to their democratic leanings. China is being led down a dark path by people who are sacrificing China's natural resources in exchange for short-term benefits.