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Community vs. Corporate Linux, The Coming Divide

tobyj writes "MadPenguin.org discusses the great divide that will separate corporate Linux (companies that are working with Microsoft) and community Linux (companies that haven't yet partnered with Microsoft) and their impact on Linux as a whole. Matt Hartley writes, "For Linux enthusiasts, the rules are simple and clear to interpret. But for Microsoft and its Linux partners, we will see plenty of them pointing to self-created loopholes, which will result in fierce debate, and perhaps even worse, blatant defiance. As a collective community, we'd like to think that this whole issue will just blow over, but with the massive migration of so many Windows users and companies that wish to capitalize on this migration, defiance of the GPL will happen and more so than ever before."

201 comments

  1. New Logo Needed by artgeeq · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think if someone could come up with a penguin with a Borg eye-piece, it would be very funny. Maybe give him a Microsoft T-shirt, too.

    1. Re:New Logo Needed by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      I think if someone could come up with a penguin with a Borg eye-piece, it would be very funny. Maybe give him a Microsoft T-shirt, too. - Funny? This image will haunt me in my dreams, I won't be able to have any sleep tonight, you insensitive clod!

    2. Re:New Logo Needed by armanox · · Score: 1
      --
      I'm starting to think GNU is the problem with "GNU/Linux" these days.
    3. Re:New Logo Needed by ATMD · · Score: 1

      Like this, you mean?

      (Lucifer's beard it took too long to make that - I'm getting rusty)

      --
      Nobody else has this sig.
    4. Re:New Logo Needed by ATMD · · Score: 1

      Argh, godammit - not only has it already been done but it's far better than mine (below). Curses!

      --
      Nobody else has this sig.
    5. Re:New Logo Needed by artgeeq · · Score: 1

      Very nice. I like the glazed-over, mindless look in the organic eye.

    6. Re:New Logo Needed by ATMD · · Score: 1

      I didn't modify that eye! It must just be the headset changing the shape...

      --
      Nobody else has this sig.
  2. I like the link by changling+bob · · Score: 5, Funny

    Click here to get the latest prices on Linux distributions!


    Erm... free?
    1. Re:I like the link by skeeto · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Click here to get the latest prices on Linux distributions! Erm... free?

      You can charge money to distribute free software. I am allowed to sell you a copy of the latest Unbuntu CD for a million dollars if I want. Remember that free refers to liberty, not price.

      This comes right from the GNU website: "Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can."

    2. Re:I like the link by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Tell that to Red Hat, Suse, Linspire, Xandros, etc.

    3. Re:I like the link by 7-Vodka · · Score: 1

      Hey,
      Your sense of humor called, he's asking to come back :D

      --

      Liberty.

    4. Re:I like the link by changling+bob · · Score: 1

      I'm aware some distros come at a cost, but I'd say the large majority of them don't.

      Also, see sibling post.

  3. Ermmm.... by JamesRose · · Score: 3, Insightful

    (companies that are working with Microsoft) and community Linux (companies that haven't yet partnered with Microsoft)

    1. Re:Ermmm.... by Entrope · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's called "framing" -- as in framing the debate by choosing the terms.

      This way anyone who might be sitting on the fence can clearly understand the consequences: If you think Microsoft is a stinky abusive monopolist but you are successful at offering large-scale 24x7 support to large customers, you're *community* Linux, not corporate, and your customers will leave you! Likewise, if you haven't upgrade to Shared Source Linux.NET, you will -- just as soon as Microsoft sends out the lawyers.

    2. Re:Ermmm.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It reminds me of the whole "You hate women's rights" or "You kill babies" debate. Really, is there any winning option? Posting Anonymously, cause well, yeah.

    3. Re:Ermmm.... by rtb61 · · Score: 1
      In this case I think 'Mad Penguin" went a little off track in it's headline, while the article is somewhat accurate it is rather inflammatory in its approach.

      It is actually a pro-community anti-corporate article. Of course open source being 'open' means that disputes have been, are and will be inevitable. Being open also means that consensus is also inevitable, the majority defines the path, what ever that will be.

      As the Linux numbers grow, a future minority Linux segment would be equal to today's current total Linux segment, it is just a matter of chopping up and redistributing M$ windows market share amongst the various Linux distributions, both community and corporate, plenty to go around ;).

      --
      Chaos - everything, everywhere, everywhen
  4. Nothing new here by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Corporations push the envelope all the time, and when they overstep, the only recourse (unfortunately in most cases) is a stiff lawsuit. That is the check and balance of the corporate world: liability and damages.

    I myself don't worry about it, because time after time the GPL stands up in court

    1. Re:Nothing new here by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      Have to post, made a crummy moderation somehow
      (I'm blaming the new way of browsing the comment system........)

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
    2. Re:Nothing new here by timrichardson · · Score: 1

      Good trick.

    3. Re:Nothing new here by pecosdave · · Score: 1

      The issue at hand: Instant moderation vs. clicking moderation at the bottom. I marked a tentative, then I clicked the link. Turns out even though there's still a "moderate" button at the bottom it's not being used, all moderations in the new layout are instant.

      --
      The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
  5. "community Linux"?! by G3ckoG33k · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "community Linux (companies that haven't yet partnered with Microsoft)"

    What?!

    Rather think "When Microsoft writes an application for Linux, I've Won.", as said by Linus Torvalds

    -

    1. Re:"community Linux"?! by an.echte.trilingue · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "corporate Linux (companies that are working with Microsoft)" ... "community Linux (companies that haven't yet partnered with Microsoft)"

      Because, as we all know, RedHat and IBM are not corporations.

      --
      weirdest thing I ever saw: scientology advertising on slashdot.
    2. Re:"community Linux"?! by ewilts · · Score: 2, Informative

      You make a good point but forgot to point out that the original article being linked to made no distinction between "corporate Linux" and "community Linux". Whoever posted that to /. simply made that up. And s/he got it very, very wrong. .../Ed

      --
      .../Ed
  6. GPL will keep us free by jshriverWVU · · Score: 5, Insightful
    No matter what companies buckle it won't break the stronghold that is OSS. We as users choose Linux and other OSS because it meets our needs, company deals won't break that. For developers we contribute to the OSS movement because it's something we believe in, and a way to pay back to for the wonderful work others have done.

    I don't see that ending any time soon.

    1. Re:GPL will keep us free by everphilski · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      GPL will keep us free

      Yes, one of the most restrictive OS Licenses will keep us 'free'. /laugh.

    2. Re:GPL will keep us free by syntaxglitch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      GPL will keep us free

      Yes, one of the most restrictive OS Licenses will keep us 'free'. /laugh.

      Yes, if by "restrictive" you mean "does not grant the freedom to deny other people the same freedom". Which is, you know, how most sensible definitions of freedom work out. Or do you think slavery should be legalized in the name of "freedom"?

      Anti-GPL trolls are funny.

    3. Re:GPL will keep us free by c_forq · · Score: 1

      Just read what is posted in every politics article here: slavery is freedom.

      --
      Computers allow humans to make mistakes at the fastest speeds known, with the possible exception of tequila and handguns
    4. Re:GPL will keep us free by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      one of the most restrictive OS Licenses

      What does it stop you doing?

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    5. Re:GPL will keep us free by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      There are less restrictive licenses... true. But one of the MOST restrictive licenses? How did you put it... ahh yes... "/laugh".

      I'm curious as to what license scheme you believe will guard freedom?

    6. Re:GPL will keep us free by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

      If AMD and ATI were to require signed drivers through their CPU's we'd be mighty screwed in 5-10 years.
       
        We are still on the brink and we'll never be totally secure in having free software.
       
        The only thing keeping MS from really examining under the table deals with hardware manufacturers is the EU and to a lesser extent Linux's total ineptitude on the desktop.

    7. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      This argument is silly. However, there is a valid point that the GP makes that is hidden in the rhetoric.

      If I want to make a truly FOSS-based server product, I would either stick to open standards for access or I would release the client libraries under a suitably free license (LGPL or BSD). Some companies, such as MySQL AB, however, like to twist this around to sell *proprietary* software licenses to those who don't run 100% FOSS software. And MySQL AB at various times in the past has had odd ideas about what constitutes derivation (MySQL-only applications connecting via ODBC were considered to be derivative, but multi-RDBMS ones were not). Only when they got a *lot* of flack and PHP threatened to drop support for them did they add the linking exceptions.

      How many people know that if they buy a copy of some closed-source MySQL-based bulletin board software, that they are required to then go purchase a license from MySQL AB in order to *use* the software?

      Personally, I think that the GPL is a good choice for self-contained programs, and the LGPL should be the preferred option for libraries and connectors to other programs.

      The GPL has a few other annoyances that I don't like:

      1) No clear definition of areas which are clearly non-derivative. For example, if a Radius plugin links to FreeRadius and libpq, then is it a derivative work of OpenSSL (whose old-style BSD license is incompatible with the GPL) even though it is possible though unlikely that the individual has not built libpq without linking to that library? Is it illegal to install the radius plugin if you have this linking in place? The "let the court decide what is derivative" is a problem in the GPL in my view, but IANAL.

      2) No possibility of a jurisdictional clause (I would like to see a clause that specifies the jurisdiction of the code author alleging infringement) meaning that nobody has any clear rules since these things vary from one jurisdiction to the next.

      The GPL is both restrictive and overly vague. But it is the best tool for the job in many open source projects. Just because it is the best shouldn't mean that we should overlook its substantial shortcomings.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    8. Re:GPL will keep us free by everphilski · · Score: 1

      Note I caveated it: Yes, one of the most restrictive OS Licenses will keep us 'free'. /laugh.

      The most restrictive open source license. Is there one more restrictive? Please, enlighten us. I can't think of one.

    9. Re:GPL will keep us free by everphilski · · Score: 1

      Let me turn the question back on you - compared to the BSD/MIT license, what additional freedoms are you allowed?

    10. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      The Qmail license is more restrictive and fits the OSI definition of OSS (barely). It does *not* meet the definition of Free Software however, nor does DJB characterize Qmail as "open source." so this example is slightly debatable.

      I consider the Afferro Public License to be more restrictive. Thank goodness adding those terms to the GPL v3 didn't happen :-)

      THis being said, the GPL is still one of the most restrictive OS licenses. Whether or not those restrictions are right for your project depends on what you want to accomplish :-)

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    11. Re:GPL will keep us free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My mouse button slipped while navigating the little drop down menu, and I accidentally modded you overrated, so I am posting a reply.

      Hello.

    12. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1


      What can you not do under the GPL?
      1) CHoosing your own license for your own code.
      2) linking to OpenSSH or other old-style BSD-licensed projects, or works like PHP or SugarCRM which are licensed under other incompatible FOSS licenses.*
      3) Gain greater legal clarity by adding a jursdiction clause.

      * IANAL. Limitations according to the FSF. However, definitions such as "derivative work" and "work as a whole" may vary according to jurisdiction, but you may have no control over where a case is actually tried. Therefore I suspect that most lawyers will advise that one interpret these as broadly as possible when deciding what can be enforced against you but as narrowly as possible in determining what to enforce.

      Don't get me wrong-- most of my contributions are under the GPL. THis is why I am aware of limitations and shortcomings of the license. It may be a decent license which meets most peoples needs relatively well, but there are a lot of restrictions that I consider to be somewhat burdensome (for example compatibility with other FOSS licenses). These restrictions are real and to pretend that they are not is just... silly.

      The issue with the GPL is that people can get away with what look like violations to the rest of us because we all have to interpret the license as broadly as possible to avoid different jurisdictional issues, while someone could take a more narrow interpretation if they review appropriate jurisdictions carefully. Thus those of us who do larger-scale projects are held hostage to a higher standard than those who use our code.

      Every license has traps. Despite the above points, most of my work is released under the GPL because, though it has many problems, it is still the best we have for many kinds of projects.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    13. Re:GPL will keep us free by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 1

      Ok, you don't like the GPL. Is there another license, that does it better in your opinion that still preserves the what most consider to be the best aspects of the GPL? Maybe we can release GPL 3.1 Or TING 1.0 (TING Is Not GPL).

      --
      Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    14. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Actually, I see the GPL as potentially problematic, and inadequate in some areas, but it is the best license we have for certain kinds of projects. It is also the license I use the most because most of my projects are unlikely to be the sort of "reference implementations" that the BSD license is better suited for.

      However, because I do most of my work with the GPL, I will have to say that it does have problems and I hope that over time those problems are corrected.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    15. Re:GPL will keep us free by dvice_null · · Score: 1

      > How many people know that if they buy a copy of some closed-source MySQL-based bulletin board software,
      > that they are required to then go purchase a license from MySQL AB in order to *use* the software?

      They don't need to buy a license to use it. The license you can buy only gives you a permission to use MySQL with non-free software. If you are going to use only free software, then you don't need to buy the license. To again GPL provides freedom. Don't mix GPL with the non-GPL license MySQL is selling for those who don't want freedom.

    16. Re:GPL will keep us free by everphilski · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I count 60 licenses. Qmail is NOT OSI certified. Affero is not approved either, or at least I can't find a single reference claiming it to be. So out of the 60 OSI-certified licenses, GPL stands to be the worst, you agree with me?

    17. Re:GPL will keep us free by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      Note I caveated it: Yes, one of the most restrictive OS Licenses will keep us 'free'. /laugh.

      The most restrictive open source license. Is there one more restrictive? Please, enlighten us. I can't think of one. You probably meant OSS (Open Source Software) vs. OS which is usually a reference to Operating System. But hey... I see what you're saying now.

      I have a sneaking suspicion this is leading to the standard BSD vs. GPL thread. So I'll cut to the chase. You may laugh at the GPL maintaining freedom - but don't try to kid us with the idea that a BSD license will do better. Having said that - I'm still curious as to what license you think will do better for "freedom" than the GPL.

    18. Re:GPL will keep us free by syntaxglitch · · Score: 1

      Of course arguments over open-source licenses tend to be silly. It comes with the territory. I'm not a fanatic for any one license myself, I just get annoyed by anti-GPL trolls. I'm generally sympathetic to the goals of the GPL but it isn't always the best choice--for instance, putting libraries and reference implementations under the GPL seems annoying and stupid, and dual licensing schemes for libraries (i.e., either paid license for non-GPL use or full GPL) leaves a bad taste in my mouth for some reason.

      Out of curiousity, what problems do you have with the GPL?

    19. Re:GPL will keep us free by syntaxglitch · · Score: 1

      I count 60 licenses. Qmail is NOT OSI certified. Affero is not approved either, or at least I can't find a single reference claiming it to be. So out of the 60 OSI-certified licenses, GPL stands to be the worst, you agree with me?

      I think I missed the part where you demonstrated that "least restrictive" equals "best". Could you back up and go over that again, please?

    20. Re:GPL will keep us free by everphilski · · Score: 1

      There was this guy, I forget his name, I think he flew a kite and got electrocuted, something about exchanging essential liberties for freedom ... OK, a stretch you might say, but any time you voluntarily give up freedoms that you have in order to 'gain security', you lose.

    21. Re:GPL will keep us free by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      There was this guy, I forget his name, I think he flew a kite and got electrocuted, something about exchanging essential liberties for freedom ... OK, a stretch you might say, but any time you voluntarily give up freedoms that you have in order to 'gain security', you lose. So what you're saying is, essentially, drop all licenses and contribute to the public domain?
    22. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      > How many people know that if they buy a copy of some closed-source MySQL-based bulletin board software,
      > that they are required to then go purchase a license from MySQL AB in order to *use* the software? [emphasis added]

      They don't need to buy a license to use it. The license you can buy only gives you a permission to use MySQL with non-free software. If you are going to use only free software, then you don't need to buy the license. To again GPL provides freedom. Don't mix GPL with the non-GPL license MySQL is selling for those who don't want freedom. Um... That is what I said, right? The point is that most people don't know that if you buy some closed-source PHP-based bulletin board software on MySQL, that you *also* have to buy a license from MySQL. They use the GPL to extort money for license fees instead of using the LGPL for client libraries.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    23. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Probably 95% or more of the code I do is released under the GPL because although it is imperfect, it is the best tool we have :-).

      The major concerns I have involve:
      1) An unwillingness of the FSF to approach license compatibility issues as anything other than political (look at the willingness to grant a linking exception wrt the Afferro Public License, but not the old-style BSD license, for example).

      2) The unwillingness of the FSF to include an ability to have some system for jurisdiction control in the license, meaning that there is no way to pin down what, for example, constitutes derivation in any case.

      3) The GPL v3 process left a bad taste in my mouth because the anti-Tivoization and APL-compatibility clauses were initially incompatible with 2 of the 4 basic freedoms so ideals were sacrificed for the sake of expediency. Although the worst of these clauses was removed (the optional terms for source distribution over any network section), these were *not* done for the right reasons (that they are fundamentally incompatible with the FSF's very definition of Free Software in that it restricts both use and modification of the software) but rather because of concerns over "complexity."

      Yes, I use the GPL for most software I work with, but it would be *really* nice to see:

      1) Linking exceptions to other standard open source licenses such as the old-style BSD license built into the license.

      2) A clause that states that any dispute under the contract shall be judged in the juridiction of the person accused of infringing on copyrights or breaching the terms of the license. That way, you could actually ask a lawyer what the license means and get a reasonably trustworthy reply. Right now, to be safe, you have to interpret such terms as "derivative work" as broadly as possible. But you probably cannot enforce such a broad interpretation against those you accuse of violating the terms of the license.

      3) A clear statement as to certain sorts of uses deemed to be non-derivative. For example, because libpq may or may not link to OpenSSL (old-style BSD license), it would be nice to state that optional dependencies do not constitute transitive derivation if they are not required by the other program (I am not sure that they ever constitute transitive derivation, but YMMV, and IANAL). Hence it would be nice to know (for the sake of educating Debian) that GPL apps may link to Libpq (new-style BSD) even though libpq may or may not link to libraries with other incompatible licenses.

      In short my concerns over the GPL are:
      1) In the GPL v3, political expediency took precedence over the very definition of Free Software. People wanted to sacrifice freedom in a way that would make the Bush Administration proud. (Note the optional restrictions which were dropped because "they made the license too complex" isntead of the fact that they seriously abridged freedoms 1 and 3 in the FSF's definition of Free Software.)

      2) The GPL is restrictive but, perhapse deliberately, vauge about the exact nature of those restrictions.

      3) THe GPL thus provides a huge "gray area" where no legal interpretation is possible.

      At the same time, it is the best license we have for multi-vendor projects where there are concerns about BSD-type traps.

      BSD-type licenses have their own problems though... For example, why would you contribute code to a BSD project if your competitors would make it their free lunch (unless it is a reference implementation and that is the whole point)? This does become an issue in cases like PostgreSQL where the BSD license may delay certain contributions from coming back to the community (i.e. if it is not accepted as part of the core distribution, then all you do is give it to your competitors-- it is harder decision to contribute).

      Quite frankly, all software licenses suck.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    24. Re:GPL will keep us free by pilot1 · · Score: 1

      The "freedom" you are referring to is the freedom to take away freedom from others. I would hardly consider that a desirable freedom, if you can even call it that. As murder, kidnapping, and slavery are almost universally looked upon as undesirable, it appears that most of the world agrees.

    25. Re:GPL will keep us free by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The point is that most people don't know that if you buy some closed-source PHP-based bulletin board software on MySQL, that you *also* have to buy a license from MySQL."

      Sorry but no, you don't, please carefully reread the GPL.

      The GPL grants you full usage rights. This only makes obvious you don't need to pay licenses to anyony because of just using GPL software. Of course you will need a different license if you want to *distribute* a GPLed software derivative under a non-GPL license. So it is the one that sells you that "closed-source PHP-based bulletin board software on MySQL" the one that will need to aquire a license from MySQL AB in order to be able to distribute the bundle under such non-GPL license. The vendor, not you. On the other hand, as has been done for ages, the "closed-source PHP-based bulletin board" vendor can sell you his product *without* MySQL code nor bindings (i.e.: in source format) and then direct you to download MySQL directly from MySQL AB (either sources or binaries) and then arrange the lot by yourself. Again, no distribution? no GPL violation.

      "They use the GPL to extort money for license fees"

      Upon people that want to extort in turn other people out of their own license fees. Quite a nice deal, if you ask me. So what? Your "closed-source PHP-based bulletin board" can ask for license fees and that's OK but then MySQL AB is "extorting" when they ask for their share on such a deal? Mind you, I don't like "dual licensed" projects, not because any "ethical problem" on the arrange, which seems perfect to me, and even "poethically just" (free, both as in beer and speech for those who "play by the rules" and ask for money from those who ask for money themselves) but because it makes the project more sensible to one single provider (double licensing is only viable when all coders resign on their copyrights in favor of a single "vendor", which in turn usually means almost no one but the single vendor will contribute code to the project).

      "instead of using the LGPL for client libraries."

      Of course, even if I find double licensing worse than "pure" GPL (meaning with this not only open source but open community development too) I find double licensing much better than LGPL wich directly promotes privative derivatives much like the BSD (not because the LGPL nor the BSD themselves but because the unavoidably greedy nature of corporations).

    26. Re:GPL will keep us free by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1
      Let me turn the question back on you

      I'd rather you answered the question.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    27. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily. I am not entirely sure where the boundary between use and preparing derivative works may lie in regards to installing and configuring software, particularly if the config file is a script itself that is run. In essence as soon as you alter one line of PHP even if it is a config file, you may arguably be preparing a derivative work which may put you out of compliance.

      Furthermore, not all jurisdictions internationally may see installation of software as necessarily fair use and hence the mere act of installing the software may or may not be permissible under the GPL depending on where you live (IANAL, but I believe that US law does treat installation of software and running of software as protected activities. Were they not, they would be covered under the GPL itself, and use is not defined in the GPL in such a way as would necessarily provide the right to install the software).

      Finally, what is wrong with allowing people to choose licenses for other software that interoperates with your own software? Is the goal to coerve everyone to use GPL-compatible licenses? Or is it to build software which is truly Free? Are you *that* insecure about your position that you cannot tolerate other licenses? Why should the Afferro Public License get a linking exception but not the old-style BSD license?

      Finally a note on the BSD license. The GPL and BSD licenses have different strengths and weaknesses. If you are launching a business product and do not want your competitors to take it and run, the GPL is a good license for that. My business uses it in the vast majority of our work. However, it is not the only way. PostgreSQL and Apache both have built very large and vibrant communities on the principle that people contribute back for various reasons and that such contributions should be freely given (and not coerced). Sure both projects have proprietary spinoffs, but in both cases, the core program undergoes such rapid development that no other company wants to get stuck with more maintenance work than necessary, so they contribute back everything they can (meaning everything that is not part of their differentiation strategy and that the community is interested in. An example of what is not contributed back to PostgreSQL is EnterpriseDB's Oracle Compat stuff that the PostgreSQL community rightly doesn't want anyway).

      And releasing a reference implementation under the GPL would be silly and counterproductive (which both PostgreSQL and Apache started out as). The only issue with the BSD license is that software developers may be less inclined to share code in a community which has players which are likely to proprietize that code unless they can ensure very wide-spread distribution. Hence if I had a cool PostgreSQL add-in and the core team was not interested, I would have to think long and hard before giving EnterpriseDB and the like a competitive stick to beat me with (if it went core that would be another matter).

      All software lives or dies on the basis of community. License choices are secondary to community management issues. And all software licenses suck :-)

      In fact software wins or loses in the competitive marketplace on the basis of community. The choice of BSD vs GPL makes some difference for many projects but neither one necessarily precludes success over competitors. In fact the superior development pace of Linux over *bsd has more to do with community management issues than licensing choices.

      BTW, for all the things I say against the GPL, it is because I work with the license a lot and will continue to work with at least version 2. There are licenses which I would not willingly work on, such as the Afferro Public Licnese, however.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    28. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Qmail is:

      1) in line with the OSI definition of open source. In fact the OSI seems to have bent over backwards to include Qmail in that they specifically allow the distribution of a base package plus patches.

      2) Not represented as open source by its maintainer.

      This is what I said and I will stand by it. You have not yet contradicted me :-)

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    29. Re:GPL will keep us free by syntaxglitch · · Score: 1

      A large portion of your complaint seems to stem from the FSF's philosophical views, for which I can't blame you. The GPL has always been explicitly political and constructed with intent to promote the FSF's ideals. RMS and his colleagues are very much pragmatic idealists, however, and so the license carefully balances long-term goals with short-term convenience. The restrictions you chafe at are in place because the FSF feels (rightly or not) that making those exceptions would compromise the long-term goals. Conversely, despite their notoriously ideological stance, they will sacrifice short-term freedoms if they think it will provide more freedom down the line.

      Things like the anti-Tivo clause are somewhat borderline, but I can at least sympathize with the FSF's views even if I think it might not belong in the license. I also think compatibility could have been better; being able to absorb code under more permissive licenses into GPL code is useful. I'm not sure which clauses create your concerns about freedoms 1 and 3, but I'm guessing it involved relaxing the requirements on source distribution in ways that basically let end-users redistribute without source in certain circumstances, or something along those lines?

      I was under the impression that a lot of work in GPLv3 was in fact to tighten up the range of potential legal interpretations--it's certainly less human-readable than the GPLv2 was. On the other hand, the jurisdiction clause you propose would put the license heavily at the mercy of local interpretation, a result that I think would be unacceptable to the FSF; it opens the door to locales with unusual or lax copyright laws allowing people to flout the GPL with impunity.

      In the end, the FSF does what it does because they think a world dominated by open-source software would be better for everyone, a point on which I tend to agree with them. Speaking in terms of crude game theory, the issue is akin to the prisoner's dilemma, where open-source is cooperative and proprietary is the defection choice. The highest payout would be if all code was licensed under, say, the WTFPL. The GPL is constructed as a subversion of the payoff matrix to provide a slightly lower payout than mutual cooperation, but create an equilibrium point that has a higher payoff than the defect/defect equilibrium.

    30. Re:GPL will keep us free by everphilski · · Score: 1

      More or less. Make your code as free as possible. If you want to share it, why not maximize its sharing potential?

      And don't give me the crap about 'well company X will lock it up and make it proprietary with their changes' ... who cares! Your contribution is still free. They chose their path, you chose yours.

    31. Re:GPL will keep us free by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      I actually think that Tivo is a proxy for the FSF's concerns over untrustworthy computing. The big issues I have are 1) no software license which doesn't start blacklisting technologies or intentions to support technologies can address this. Imagine, for example, that we create a hardware/vm system where the OS is not trusted and certain areas of memory are encrypted to prevent OS access. Imagine further that the encryption is handled via a hardware/firmware solution and that Linux talks to that hardware through a very simple driver. Hence the keys for the encryption are not handled by the OS. We can now let a GPL v3 hypothetical Linux run without compromosing the DRM because the hardware and user-mode components don't have to trust the kernel. 2) there are sound economic reasons to suggest that Tivo's approach is short-minded and that untrustworthy computing will probably not become the technology that the media companies want it to be anyway. Why go looking for solutions in search of imaginary problems? However, I am willing to forgive this as an honest mistake made in concern for the freedoms that the FSF expounds even given areas I feel are less-than-idealistic (see below).

      The bigger issue in my mind, however, was the question of compatibility with the Afferro Public License which contains explicit restrictions about how the code can be altered such that you must provide access tothe source of the application over whatever network sessions the user connects to it. I see this as 1) very EULA-like and 2) very onerous. The original approach, allowing the GPL v3 to adopt these provisions as optional clauses would have eventually sought to drag every networked application into this mess and would have seriously curtailed the ability to modify an application for one's own use (part of Freedom 1) and distribute such modifications (part of freedom 3).

      While the heavy-handed approach in the earlier drafts did not make it into the final draft, the problem I have has to do with the rationale document, which gave only one reason for the change: that it added complexity. There was *no* discussion or acknowledgement in the FSF's official rationale for the change regarding the question of software freedom. I am therefore left to conclude that the question of whether this was a legitimate abridgement of freedom was *never* an issue for the FSF.

      Early drafts of the GPL v3 were non-free based on other criteria already established by the FSF including the fact that it put limits on what could be charged (see their concerns of the Reciprocal Public License). In short, I think that early drafts of the GPL v3 were clearly not Free Software licenses under the standards set forth by the FSF and I do not think that meeting those standards was a high priority.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    32. Re:GPL will keep us free by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      More or less. Make your code as free as possible. If you want to share it, why not maximize its sharing potential?

      And don't give me the crap about 'well company X will lock it up and make it proprietary with their changes' ... who cares! Your contribution is still free. They chose their path, you chose yours. I have complete respect for those who make such gifts. These kinds of things are the building blocks of modern society. Kudos to authors who contribute directly to the public domain and support an important historical resource.

      However, such gifts do nothing to promote freedom of any given code base. The concern over code becoming proprietary and locked away is very much a part of the concerns for freedom. If you want to ensure ongoing free access and a level playing field then something akin to the GPL is the direction to go.

      Freedom is not accidental. It requires careful consideration and diligent protection to maintain. It is a legacy beyond any simple gift.
  7. Where's the beef? by asv108 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously, how did this get to the front page? What is newsworthy about the link? 60% of the page is advertising/links bundled with a few small paragraphs of mindless speculation.

    1. Re:Where's the beef? by bubbl07 · · Score: 3, Informative

      I agree, but for those that wish to avoid the ads/links and still RTFA, here's the clean version.

    2. Re:Where's the beef? by jez9999 · · Score: 1

      Seriously, how did this get to the front page?

      You must be new here.

    3. Re:Where's the beef? by vthokie69 · · Score: 1

      You must be old here.

  8. Massive migration? by LighterShadeOfBlack · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...but with the massive migration of so many Windows users and companies that wish to capitalize on this migration... Sorry, what? I'm not exactly in a corporate environment anymore but I haven't seen any signs of a massive migration to Linux. Sure there are switchers here and there at an individual company level but there's also no small amount of others going back to Windows. Did I miss a peice of news somewhere about big Windows to Linux switching or is that statement based solely on 2007 being (Yet Another) Year of Linux despite all evidence to the contrary?
    --
    Spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, and stupid comments are intentional.
    1. Re:Massive migration? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      Really, you most be blind or are making things up.

      Almost ALL important computing devices or systems that make the most money and require high reliability have migrated to linux. ALL broadcasting and cable TV have migrated all the important things in the headends to linux. your mpeg2 routers, mpeg2 recompressors, Video on demand, etc. all Linux migrated away from the incredibly shitty Windows based products. In fact the last company that made windows based mpeg headend equipment filed chapter 11 2 years ago. Linux is 100% defacto in the important stuff. Granted this is at small tiny corporations like Comcast, Time Warner, Turner Networks (CNN,TNT,TNN,etc...). and other tiny corporations like AutoZone. Lots of foreign banks are switching to linux, little ones like BP that only have 36% of all europe transactions.

      Desktop pee cees for the sales and office drones are the least important parts of a corporation. DUH those will be touched last.

    2. Re:Massive migration? by clydemaxwell · · Score: 1

      Cisco, amazingly enough, uses windows in their IPTV solution.

      --
      Browsing with classic discussion, noscript, at -1 and nested
      no hidden comments and I only mod UP
    3. Re:Massive migration? by amber_of_luxor · · Score: 1

      > Granted this is at small tiny corporations like Comcast,

      Which explains why Comcast Internet Service installers take one look at a Linux box and say "Sorry, no can do', and leave. Then charge for a service call, in which no services were rendered.

      Amber

      --
      Wind Beneath Thy Wings
  9. Wow flaimbait summary. by serviscope_minor · · Score: 5, Insightful
    So there are two kinds of Linux company:
    • Those that have partnered with Microsoft. And,
    • Those that haven't yet (i.e. will) partnered with Microsoft.


    What about the kind that realise that Microsoft has screwed so many business partners in the past (Spyglass, for an excellent example) that a partnership with them is not sound buisness.

    --
    SJW n. One who posts facts.
    1. Re:Wow flaimbait summary. by ipooptoomuch · · Score: 2, Funny

      Microsoft is less likely to destroy its partners then it's competitors. JOIN US OR YOUR BUSINESS DIES. I am no way affiliated with Microsoft, it was a joke!

    2. Re:Wow flaimbait summary. by dattaway · · Score: 1

      For every distribution that Microsoft dominates, two more will pop up. Its the business edition of the game, "Whack a Mole!"

    3. Re:Wow flaimbait summary. by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      I thought Microsoft's business model was "Partner with Innovative Companies, and Profit from their Destruction"?

      Isn't that where MS-DOS came from?

      God, I hope MS-Linux isn't around the corner... (not that there isn't anything that is stopping them from producing their own distribution and selling support (a la RHEL) because of the freedoms that are in the GPL, but they'd find some way to make it "less free". :(

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
  10. Game Over by JeremyGNJ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Another self destructive attitude with Linux.
    "If they wont play nice, then we cont support their stuff"

    good move. push Linux more into obscurity by not supporting modern technologies.

    It kind of hints at something big missed last week though, when it comes to patents:
    If Microsoft 0wnz Novell
    and Novell 0wnz Unix
    and SCO failed it's lawsuit against linux for the reason of "not owning Unix in the first place"
    Could Novell now have an trump card when it comes to Linux?.....could it take the same patent lawsuit against Linux that SCO attempted, while using it's rightful ownership?

    1. Re:Game Over by myxiplx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, because Novell aren't suicidal.

      The only reason this was a valid tactic for SCO was because the company was on the way out anyway - there was nothing to loose. The lawsuit was never going to win and they knew that, it was purely there to spread FUD about linux and make a tidy packet for a few individuals.

      The circumstances just aren't there for 'normal' companies to do this.

    2. Re:Game Over by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Informative

      First, I generally only buy Linux-friendly hardware because most of my stuff runs Linux. There are exceptions where required (the Symbol MC50 is really nice for taking inventory in a retail business but I *hate* Windows Mobile sucks, and that is being polite) but I figure I should point out that although TFA suggests that this is the socially responsible path, I do this just because it is easier.

      I dont have time to reverse engineer hardware and write drivers. Bravo to those that do!

      I don't have the expertise to reverse engineer hardware and write drivers. Bravo to those that do!

      If someone wants to go out and buy non-Linux-friendly hardware for whatever reason, go for it. I won't hold it against anyone. However, if you seriously want to run Linux, you will find that this is usually a waste of time and money.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    3. Re:Game Over by xtracto · · Score: 1

      The only reason this was a valid tactic for SCO was because the company was on the way out anyway - there was nothing to loose.

      But I guess Novell could also loose the hounds and then the community will lose a lot of their value... I guess we will all get loose...

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
  11. A waste of perfectly good electrons by greengrass · · Score: 1

    IMOSHO!

    --
    The MS "no sue/patent deal" with Novell/Xandros is like the Pope blessing a Jewish wedding
  12. Think Freedom. by twitter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Rather think "When Microsoft writes an application for Linux, I've Won.", as said by Linus Torvalds

    It's not that easy.

    When M$ becomes a free software company, we will all win. If M$ becomes a free software owner, we will all lose. The whole point of free software is to avoid software owners - people who make you pay for the privilege of using and improving their software but who will restrict those uses and improvements so that you never get what you want.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

    1. Re:Think Freedom. by ThosLives · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I can't recall if I've seen this around but: if nobody "owns" software, is it subject to tragedy of the commons?

      There are probably arguments either way, but because software isn't a scarce commodity I don't know how that old idea applies.

      I would suspect that as long as there are enough people willing and able to create new software and / or modify what's out there the issues would be minimized. The big problem I see with no "owners" of software is that ensuring you had "the real deal" would be difficult, because there's nobody to go after for "shoddy" software. Essentially, without an owner there is no responsibility. This could be detrimental, because it would mean that every organization that wants to use software would then have to hire competent software folks to evaluate and analyze the software, or make it all proprietary in the first place.

      Sure the local crowd here on /. is capable of evaluating most small projects, but in an environment that really relies on software as a tool, you can't "guess" that it will do what you want, and having the luxury (yes it's a luxury) of a software "owner" on which to place responsibility is probably a good thing.

      Having software so "open" that responsibility cannot be assigned is actually a bad thing.

      Now, the balance between those two concepts - responsibility and freedom - is a tricky one to be sure. At the very least, I agree that software should be "open" in the sense that you should be able to change what you have locally to do whatever you want; responsibility only comes in when you distribute those changes to others (or the use of modified bits can affect others).

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    2. Re:Think Freedom. by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Informative

      I can't recall if I've seen this around but: if nobody "owns" software, is it subject to tragedy of the commons?

      Nobody owns the software as a whole. Lots of pieces are owned by lots of people with agreements between them. Think of owning a city lot where a portion of the lot is owned by you but is public right-of-way (i.e. the city is legally allowed to come and build a road or sidewalk on part of it if they want without further compensation to you).

      There are probably arguments either way, but because software isn't a scarce commodity I don't know how that old idea applies.

      No, but developer effort is a scarce commodity. Business models, whether open or closed source which develop software for the public use generally have to have a way to make back the costs of the use of that scarce commodity. Software license fees are one way. Charging customers for development they need is another.

      Effective competition against software license models can only happen with the understanding of the real economic bottleneck-- software developers and engineers.

      I would suspect that as long as there are enough people willing and able to create new software and / or modify what's out there the issues would be minimized. The big problem I see with no "owners" of software is that ensuring you had "the real deal" would be difficult, because there's nobody to go after for "shoddy" software. Essentially, without an owner there is no responsibility. This could be detrimental, because it would mean that every organization that wants to use software would then have to hire competent software folks to evaluate and analyze the software, or make it all proprietary in the first place.

      Don't confuse code with trademark. Linus owns the Linux trademark. It is only Linux if Linus says so. He does not own all the code in the project, however.

      PostgreSQL has taken a similar approach. As has LedgerSMB, but in both these cases, there is a core committee who retains ownership of the trademarks for QA purposes.

      Sure the local crowd here on /. is capable of evaluating most small projects, but in an environment that really relies on software as a tool, you can't "guess" that it will do what you want, and having the luxury (yes it's a luxury) of a software "owner" on which to place responsibility is probably a good thing.

      What exactly needs to be owned? The project as a whole needs to be managed by a small group of people at most. The trademark needs to be owned and managed. But this does *not* correspond with a need for ownership of the source code.

      "The software" is a pretty vague term in the open source world. As is "ownership."

      Having software so "open" that responsibility cannot be assigned is actually a bad thing.

      Now, the balance between those two concepts - responsibility and freedom - is a tricky one to be sure. At the very least, I agree that software should be "open" in the sense that you should be able to change what you have locally to do whatever you want; responsibility only comes in when you distribute those changes to others (or the use of modified bits can affect others).

      Not really. Most community-driven (rather than company-driven, such as MySQL) projects end up eventually with three levels of community:

      1) Core team (sometimes called a Steering Committee or Project Management Team), most of which have commit rights, and all are involved in managing the project.

      2) Committers who have earned the right to commit based on past performance. Their rights are granted and managed by the core team.

      3) Other community members including both users and developers. Any contributions from them have to go through committers.

      The key to making this work is the commitment to community and transparency of process. Sure, just anyone can't go commit to svn-- only those who have proven themselves.
      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    3. Re:Think Freedom. by Harmonious+Botch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      if nobody "owns" software, is it subject to tragedy of the commons? There are probably arguments either way, but because software isn't a scarce commodity I don't know how that old idea applies. Wow! This must be a first on slashdot. Usually the poster expresses an opinion without sufficient facts. But P has all the facts and is unwilling to commit to an opinion.

      So I'll do it for him: by definition, the tragedy of the commons is caused by one party using a scarce resource. If there is no scarcity, there is no tragedy.
    4. Re:Think Freedom. by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I can't recall if I've seen this around but: if nobody "owns" software, is it subject to tragedy of the commons?


      There are probably arguments either way, but because software isn't a scarce commodity I don't know how that old idea applies.

      ...


      I would suspect that as long as there are enough people willing and able to create new software and / or modify what's out there the issues would be minimized. The big problem I see with no "owners" of software is that ensuring you had "the real deal" would be difficult, because there's nobody to go after for "shoddy" software. Essentially, without an owner there is no responsibility. This could be detrimental, because it would mean that every organization that wants to use software would then have to hire competent software folks to evaluate and analyze the software, or make it all proprietary in the first place.

      The whole point to the "tragedy of the commons" scenario is unrestricted access to a finite resource. Since software isn't naturally scarce (although some business strategies involve artificial scarcity), it doesn't apply.

      Proprietary software does not guarantee quality. It doesn't matter if someone "owns" a given software package - there's only so much you can do if a company is unable to deliver. If you check your software license you'll probably find you don't even have any legal recourse (or at least that's the hope of most license verbiage - it's anyone's guess until after the lawsuit is settled).

      Most OSS solutions have corporate entities surrounding the software. If you want to hire someone to cover you, that's the direction to go. Of course, you can always go somewhere else as well. I'm sure you'll be able to find any number of support structures for various OSS-based solutions.

      If you've done your homework, and you've got a bit of luck going with you, you're going to pick a decent solution and a company that can support you. And any problem you have will be covered sufficiently by your support contract. That applies to both proprietary and OSS-based solutions. One difference with an OSS-based solution is if the company you hired doesn't live up to its promises... you have a chance of finding someone else who can (with a lot less hassle in the migration between the two - maybe).
    5. Re:Think Freedom. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      You said it best in that software is not a scarce commodity so everyone cannot eat/consume/use all of it.

      The more you use, the bigger your network effect.

      I can see conflict as the number of interested developers grows. You might "over develop" a lightweight simple tool into something bloated.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    6. Re:Think Freedom. by ThosLives · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, I was stretching the use of the term. Basically, (and the other poster above didn't comment on this one, though someone further down in the main thread did) I was going along the lines of "when nobody owns a common resource, it tends to get abused." I suppose it was too much of a stretch, without being explicit, to say "if there is no central 'owner' of software, software loses accountability." Which is basically the tragedy of the commons - without vested direct interest there is abuse. (I admit, quite often I'm not as clear in my analogies as I should be.)

      Sure, with software (as another poster below noted) there is usually vested interest, so people/companies will be hired if they can meet the needs, regardless of the fact that software is "open" or "closed."

      --
      "There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
    7. Re:Think Freedom. by kimvette · · Score: 1

      When M$ becomes a free software company, we will all win. If M$ becomes a free software owner, we will all lose.


      Not gonna happen. Remember when RedHat discontinued their desktop OS (alienating formerly-loyal customers) and made their distribution non-free? Well, folks have released White Box Linux and CentOS, based on the Redhat code. RedHat had the nerve to threaten suit against those groups since they credited RedHat as providing the source for the project (Funny, doesn't the GPL require crediting the originator?) but the fact remains that RedHat simply could not kill off the free release of their distribution - thanks to the GPL. Those distros now refer to RedHat as "a prominent North American Enterprise Linux vendor" to work around the threat of suits, but as badly as RedHat want to put those distros under, they know they will not be able to get away with it.

      I'm sure Microsoft folks know that they cannot kill off open source. There's what - 200-300 Linux distros, and almost all of them will all run the same software, generally with very little tweaking. There is NO way they will ever get the ubuntu folks to play ball. Redhat might.

      Novell is playing ball with Microsoft, but I honestly think their intentions were honorable, in an effort to make Active Directory interoperability easier for the average user. If Windows did nothing else for networking, they did make rolling out LDAP a no-brainer. Granted, it's a small proprietary subset of LDAP, but it works with very little fussing, and mostly configurable without even knowing what a command line is. Microsoft took the deal with Novell and used it to create anti-Linux FUD spin, but anyone who looks at it objectively will see through the lies. If Linux were indeed infringing on 235 (legitimate) patents, don't you think Microsoft would be aggressively defending their IP, so that the patents don't get invalidated? It's not as though Microsoft lacks the resources to do so.

      Microsoft can't kill Linux, and they know it. Knock five distros down, 15 others will pop up to take their place, and chances are those forks work better than the distros Microsoft does manage to kill. Microsoft has made their own enemies, between forced upgrades, abusive pricing, anti-competitive tactics, and strong-arming the little guy.
      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    8. Re:Think Freedom. by Cyclops · · Score: 1

      Having software so "open" that responsibility cannot be assigned is actually a bad thing.
      And this means to imply what? That business who sell support are figments of my imagination?

      If you work at a place that needs someone to be responsible for the code, please buy support from us, companies who do sell it. We're eager to help you.

      Other than that, you're just spawning Microsoft parrot-talk.

      responsibility only comes in when you distribute those changes to others (or the use of modified bits can affect others).
      Do you buy responsability from a book? If you didn't like how the story ended, can you demand a refund? This is idiotic, only software which has been sold to you with a guarantee or with another kind of responsability agreement can have that.
    9. Re:Think Freedom. by einhverfr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The scarce resource is developer and engineering manpower, not the software itself. License-models use the licenses as a way of distributing access to that scarcity. However it is not the only possibility.

      One option (that I do) is to charge customers for access to the actual scarcity-- my time! Want x feature? Pay me $y.

      The tragedy of commons does apply to free software however in a limited way. People like to make feature requests, and not everyone wants to pay to make those things happen. If we treat our time as a common resource, we never get paid. So paid features are implemented before those requests which are not associated with financial incentive.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    10. Re:Think Freedom. by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 2, Informative

      The big problem I see with no "owners" of software is that ensuring you had "the real deal" would be difficult, because there's nobody to go after for "shoddy" software.


      Actually you have no recourse anyway because the copyright owner (in the case of GPL'd software) has provided no such assurances; from the GPL -

      15. Disclaimer of Warranty.

          THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY
      APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT
      HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY
      OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
      THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR
      PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM
      IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF
      ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

          16. Limitation of Liability.

          IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING
      WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MODIFIES AND/OR CONVEYS
      THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY
      GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE
      USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF
      DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD
      PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS),
      EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
      SUCH DAMAGES.

          17. Interpretation of Sections 15 and 16.

          If the disclaimer of warranty and limitation of liability provided
      above cannot be given local legal effect according to their terms,
      reviewing courts shall apply local law that most closely approximates
      an absolute waiver of all civil liability in connection with the
      Program, unless a warranty or assumption of liability accompanies a
      copy of the Program in return for a fee.


      The model I've seen spring up as a result is for a third party vendor to provide support. I wouldn't hold my breath in an attempt to get copyright holders (many of which are hobbiests) to cough up a warranty. The main reason, aside from stability, that a business is going to go for OSS is to save money. Cheap does not come without a price, however.
      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    11. Re:Think Freedom. by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      PS. Check out the Microsoft EULA. You will see similar verbiage. When was the last time someone went after Microsoft for shoddy software, and won? Zero - that is how many.

      Business puts all their eggs in the Microsoft basket today - and that is no different than doing so with OSS for all intents and purposes.

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    12. Re:Think Freedom. by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Just a couple of nitpicks ;-)

      First, "going after someone for shoddy software" doesn't necessarily mean "suing them." One case in point: LedgerSMB forked from a shoddy program. Our codebase is under total rewrite because the code is so bad as to be impossible to maintain, and the security in the original program was non-existant (using logins as session keys?!? Using timestamps for session validation-- validation meaning "this timestamp corresponds to a time in the last hour?????").

      In this case "going after the author" meant "submitting lots of stuff to Bugtraq after fair warning was given" and using similar measures. These tactics proved somewhat effective. He actually began fixing "some" of the security issues (only those that didn't require a valid login to exploit, however-- he does not consider embezzlement to be a security problem according to his previous emails). One of our messages early on has been "unlike SQL-Ledger, we take security against embezzlement very seriously."

      More stuff is going to Bugtraq after our next release too. He has had a few months to fix the problems and the only responses we get no are "go away."

      Secondly, I would add that the question over whether the software is the real deal has to do with ownership of ... trademarks. Yes, the project should control its trademarks, and not accept code contributions from everyone without review. However a commitment to the principles of freedom and inclusive community are what are required.

      However, I would agree that first, second, or third parties can provide support and guarantees. This may be the copyright holder, the internal IT department, or a third-party vendor.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    13. Re:Think Freedom. by einhverfr · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Having worked at Microsoft PSS, I will tell you that if a customer got angry enough and threatened to sue, we sent them over to people who sent them lots of free stuff.

      I am not aware of anyone even trying to sue Microsoft. Hmmm... sue and probably lose, or drop the suit and get free stuff?

      Note that this applied to threats both over quality of software and quality of support.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    14. Re:Think Freedom. by bealzabobs_youruncle · · Score: 2, Informative
      "There is NO way they will ever get the ubuntu folks to play ball."

      Are you ignoring recent comments that Shuttleworth made saying he wouldn't rule out working with MS? He might not play patent ball, but don't be shocked if some other deal comes up eventually. http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/06/mark_shu ttlewor.html

    15. Re:Think Freedom. by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      The scarce resource is developer and engineering manpower, not the software itself. License-models use the licenses as a way of distributing access to that scarcity. However it is not the only possibility.

      One option (that I do) is to charge customers for access to the actual scarcity-- my time! Want x feature? Pay me $y. You're really stretching the concept. It's possible someone has put themselves in to this kind of scenario. But I would imagine its relatively rare. Sure - time and manpower is finite but it is not available on an unrestricted basis. But few people allow themselves to be directed by a nameless mass of others. You, yourself, included it would seem.
    16. Re:Think Freedom. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When M$ becomes

      When you stop using those immature dollar signs, maybe someone will actually pay attention to what you're saying.

    17. Re:Think Freedom. by newr00tic · · Score: 1

      When you stop using those immature dollar signs, maybe someone will actually pay attention to what you're saying.

      Maybe if you stop commenting, people will quit complaining about your comments.

      --
      A horse can't be sick, you know, even if he wants to.
    18. Re:Think Freedom. by JohnBailey · · Score: 1

      I can see conflict as the number of interested developers grows. You might "over develop" a lightweight simple tool into something bloated. But as the source is available, wouldn't it be possible for someone to make a more lightweight version of the bloated one? If the lightweight version was really more desirable, then that would be the one that gets used more, and the original either falls into disuse, or it slims down.
      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    19. Re:Think Freedom. by Warbothong · · Score: 1

      "If Microsoft releases Windows for free we've lost. If Microsoft releases Windows as Free Software we've won." I think that was Stallman.

    20. Re:Think Freedom. by RockoTDF · · Score: 1

      Rather think "When Microsoft writes an application for Linux, I've Won.", as said by Linus Torvalds

      didn't MS make an IE for linux at one point or am I hallucinating?

      --
      There is more to science than physics!

      www.iomalfunction.blogspot.com
    21. Re:Think Freedom. by Frizzle+Fry · · Score: 1

      There was a Unix version, but I don't think it ran on Linux.

      --
      I'd rather be lucky than good.
    22. Re:Think Freedom. by Maxo-Texas · · Score: 1

      In theory yes.

      But in practice, you often end up with a mixture of cool stuff you like and a lot of bloat you have no use for that would be difficult to fork.

      --
      She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
    23. Re:Think Freedom. by poopdeville · · Score: 1

      Reeeeaaally... maybe I'll find my old Windows ME license and make a couple of phone calls.

      --
      After all, I am strangely colored.
    24. Re:Think Freedom. by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I should have been clearer.

      There are a lot of people in the open source world who want work done for free. Myself included. It is, for better or worse, a part of the culture of open source.

      However, there is always a tension between regulating the scarce resource that is developer time and doing things for money. This is an inherent tension.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    25. Re:Think Freedom. by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      YMMV as all the jobs have since been moved to India ;-)

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    26. Re:Think Freedom. by JohnBailey · · Score: 1

      True enough, but there is nothing stopping any software project getting over developed. At least there is a chance of an open source one getting pulled back down to earth.

      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
  13. The community has to grow up by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    Community support is not acceptable to the vast majority of serious businesses. They also want to have their bases covered when it comes to liability. The community doesn't give them that either. If distributions that work with large IP holders like Microsoft end up winning, that is good for Linux as a platform. It means that Linux is getting a legal barrier removed that will allow it to mature more safely in the future. It will also throw in more money behind Linux development which means that more parties will have a vested interest in not seeing the Linux boat rocked.

    Of course you can play scrappy rebel. Problem is that big business doesn't want to trust anything important to that sort of team or product. If you want Linux to be able to play with the big boys, it has to be able to play on their terms.

    1. Re:The community has to grow up by rangek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      They also want to have their bases covered when it comes to liability.

      Can you point to any instance where Microsoft, or some other comparable company has been held liable for defects in their software? People keep bringing up this argument, but I can not ever recall anyone actually using this in practice.

    2. Re:The community has to grow up by moderatorrater · · Score: 2, Informative

      While other companies might not rely on the community to patch their software, the company that does provide support relies on the community to improve and patch their software. Where would redhat be without the community?

    3. Re:The community has to grow up by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      They also want to have their bases covered when it comes to liability.

      Good luck with holding *any* software company liable after you agree to that EULA disclaiming all liability.

    4. Re:The community has to grow up by Undertaker43017 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In my experience it is more the illusion and feeling of security of having someone to hold liable. C-levels want to feel good about there being someone, with real assets, at the other end of the product, regardless if they ever sue them. Unfortunately most C-levels are "old school" and where cultivated in cultures where "no one got fired for buying IBM (or Microsoft)", hopefully this will change as these dinosaurs retire, and younger/fresher ideas start to permeate the corporate board rooms.

      The other problem at the C-level is the politics get ratcheted up to the highest level and any little FU will be used by your opposition to force you out. So stepping outside the "norm", could be career suicide.

    5. Re:The community has to grow up by Cathbard · · Score: 1
      Why do so many people think that business (read corporate) is an irresistible force that has to win out in the end? As I see it, the harder the corporate world pushes the stronger the FOSS movement gets. The corporate world doesn't understand what the are dealing with so they attack it with the tools they use in business and it fails. It would be easier to explain colour to a blind man than reciprocal altruism to a corporate CEO.

      We are the immovable object more than they are an irresistible force. Steady as she goes tux, we're on course. Just steer around the fud and we'll be ok. Viva le GPL!!

      --
      "A cynic is what an idealist calls a realist" - Sir Humphrey Appleby
    6. Re:The community has to grow up by thagrol · · Score: 1

      Can you point to any instance where Microsoft, or some other comparable company has been held liable for defects in their software? Since when have software producers been liable for anything? As long as EULA's have clauses like the ones below, no user has any comeback for defective software.

      "15. Disclaimer of Warranty. THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION.

      16. Limitation of Liability. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MODIFIES AND/OR CONVEYS THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES."

      In case you're wondering, here's the source for the above: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

    7. Re:The community has to grow up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "People keep bringing up this argument, but I can not ever recall anyone actually using this in practice."

      That's like "You get what you pay for." Your $499 Windows crashed? Well, you have to expect these things with this sophisticated, advanced software. Your free Linux distro doesn't support WMV media out-of-the-box? Well, you get what you pay for!

    8. Re:The community has to grow up by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Why do so many people think that business (read corporate) is an irresistible force that has to win out in the end?"

      Because that's the way it is. Sooner or later, the people who now make up the mainstay of the FOSS movement will have the absolutely irrevocable need for money in real life.

      Altruism doesn't pay the bills. Business does, and more and more programmers will join the corporate world which has real, material benefits to offer, abandoning the FOSS ship. Younger idealist will pick up the projects left by its original designers but they will lack the know-how, and many will be left behind.

      The Corporate Power will win. Deal with it.

    9. Re:The community has to grow up by rayvd · · Score: 1

      Please keep in mind that Red Hat is _part_ of the community. Not only do they contribute a tremendous amount to kernel development, but their employees are extremely active on mailing lists, blogs, IRC and elsewhere interacting and helping out the "community" in addition to their paid support.

    10. Re:The community has to grow up by mlts · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Its less of liability (as in suing a company if something happens), rather its a target where fingers can be pointed at.

      Scenario 1: Machines with Commercial OS "A" get breached. IT department shows that the OS, database, and other security measures are commercial, by known brands. Corporate rep gets tarnished, but because the company did due diligence with a solid paper trail, there is a smaller attack profile by potential plaintiffs.

      Scenario 2: Machines with a non-commercial OS "B" get breached. IT department has to find a reason why their "homebrew" solution was implemented, and explain this to shareholders, potential plaintiffs, and the SEC guys. Company gets sued into oblivion, and people go to prison for violating corporate regulations (mainly for not observing "due diligence" with consistant security precautions.)

      This has little to do with the OS, this has to do with spending the cash to get the OS passed by independant auditors, so legal eagles are happy. In larger companies, technological solutions are just one part of the solution. One must have a paper trail that can stand audits, both internal and external.

      I'm glad RedHat had the money and wisely spent it to get RHEL certified here.

    11. Re:The community has to grow up by rmdir+-r+* · · Score: 1

      They also want to have their bases covered when it comes to liability.

      Can you point to any instance where Microsoft, or some other comparable company has been held liable for defects in their software? People keep bringing up this argument, but I can not ever recall anyone actually using this in practice.


      Why do you keep insisting on using logic?
    12. Re:The community has to grow up by grcumb · · Score: 1

      [Giving up on moderation to comment here...]

      They also want to have their bases covered when it comes to liability.

      Can you point to any instance where Microsoft, or some other comparable company has been held liable for defects in their software? People keep bringing up this argument, but I can not ever recall anyone actually using this in practice.

      It's utterly illogical, and I'm amazed that people dare offer it as reason. I think the logic of 'having someone to sue' is a cross between tiger repellant and Danegeld.

      For my part, I would fire anyone who suggested this to me as a rationale for any software purchase.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  14. Ummmm, so where does Red Hat fit in? by PCM2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Last I heard, Red Hat was about as "corporate" as Linux got. (Before we start murmuring about Novell, why don't we check the size of Novell's customer list vs. that of Red Hat?) And, last I heard, Red Hat flat-out rejected a deal with Microsoft the likes of the one Novell signed. On the other hand, is Red Hat "working with Microsoft"? I don't have examples off the top of my head, but considering that it would be in the best interests of Red Hat's entire installed base, I would say that it is more than likely. I guess that's why they call it a line in the sand and not a line in the concrete.

    --
    Breakfast served all day!
    1. Re:Ummmm, so where does Red Hat fit in? by moderatorrater · · Score: 1

      I guess that's why they call it a line in the sand and not a line in the concrete They call it a line in the sand because Moses didn't have any wet concrete handy.
    2. Re:Ummmm, so where does Red Hat fit in? by PCM2 · · Score: 1

      They call it a line in the sand because Moses didn't have any wet concrete handy.

      Errr, minor point, but Moses didn't draw the line in the sand; Bowie did. Moses ran.

      --
      Breakfast served all day!
    3. Re:Ummmm, so where does Red Hat fit in? by somersault · · Score: 1

      I dunno, he turned the Nile into blood with his staff, I reckon concrete from sand wouldn't have been that difficult... :p

      --
      which is totally what she said
  15. Hasn't this already happened to some extent? by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I saw this coming after Redhat stopped making Linux for everyone and went corporate only. Sure there is Fedora; but it's not Redhat. The same thing applies to SuSE/OpenSuSE.

    I, for one, like corporate Linux. The support is all there. With community distros, I can't tell you how many times my questions have gone unanswered or have been mocked. With corporate editions, I can actually call/email someone with and issue and get a response in a timely manner.

    I understand the whole attitude about keeping Linux free; but alienation of community users by community users is a good way for community Linux to shoot itself in the foot.

    --
    The game.
    1. Re:Hasn't this already happened to some extent? by sykopomp · · Score: 1

      I've noticed that this has become more widespread over the past couple of years. I may have just been terribly lucky, but I remember that when I first started using Gentoo, I could go to its IRC channel with any stupid questions that google and forum searches didn't come up with. They were always answered. That, and the great quality of documentation are what have made me stick with gentoo for this long. Lately, though, it's become pretty hard to get any actual help. At least the documentation is really good, though. Gentoo Wiki beats down any other distro's in my experience, although the Ubuntu one is growing a lot lately.

  16. Hmm... Pretty similar to my article from March 13 by slackaddict · · Score: 1, Interesting

    From his article, "The Coming Divide"
    "There is in fact a coming divide that will hit the Linux community like a freight train. The battle lines have already been drawn, and companies that support Linux, such as Canonical, will eventually find themselves fiercely pitted against companies like Linspire, who only a short time ago, entered into an agreement of cooperation."
    http://www.madpenguin.org/cms/?m=show&id=7988

    From my article, "The Coming Linux Storm"
    "The Linux community is heading for a clash between three disparate groups with very different goals and agendas. We've already seen some light skirmishes between them already. Sometimes these groups will align for the purposes of advancing their own views, but for the most part, these three groups will either destroy Linux as we know it or have to learn how to get along."
    http://www.openaddict.com/the_three_types_of_linux _users.html

    I dunno.. just smacks of something I wrote 5 months ago...

    --
    ConsultingFair.com
  17. Can't happen by Tony · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...could it take the same patent lawsuit against Linux that SCO attempted, while using it's rightful ownership?

    The SCO lawsuit was not about patents, it was about contract violation and copyright infringement. Patents were never mentioned by SCO.

    Novell now has legal standing with respect to Unix copyrights. However, they distribute an entire GNU/Linux distribution, much of which (including the Linux kernel) is under the GPL. Therefore, they can't even attack Linux for copyright infringement. So Novell has no "trump card" when it comes to Linux.

    --
    Microsoft is to software what Budweiser is to beer.
    1. Re:Can't happen by Gazzonyx · · Score: 2, Funny

      Could be off topic - but check out SCO's stock as of 20 minutes ago :) SCOX: 0.43 -1.13 (-72.43%) - The SCO Group, Inc.
      Am I the only screaming, "That's what you get, that's what you friggin' get!"?

      --

      If I mod you up, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with what you've said, sorry.

    2. Re:Can't happen by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 1

      ...could it take the same patent lawsuit against Linux that SCO attempted, while using it's rightful ownership?

      The SCO lawsuit was not about patents, it was about contract violation and copyright infringement. Patents were never mentioned by SCO. Was it ever about copyright infringement? Sure - there was lots about it in the press. SCO really beat that drum in public forums where proof wasn't required. But they never produced any proof in court. Not just proof that was refuted... but anything proof at all. Theorizing that Novell now has a strong position gives a lot more credit to SCO's claims (read: FUD) than it warrants.
    3. Re:Can't happen by JeremyGNJ · · Score: 1

      That is more my point! It's not about "winning a law suit", however it is a step toward legitimizing the fact that Linux may have Unix IP in it.

      Novell could be in a position to make some big additions to its for-pay linux distribution, using Unix code....and leave it out of reach (except for a fee) from other Linux distributions. "Novell Tax" on Linux.

    4. Re:Can't happen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "However, they distribute an entire GNU/Linux distribution, much of which (including the Linux kernel) is under the GPL. Therefore, they can't even attack Linux for copyright infringement."

      I have one word for you: Caldera. SCO Group distributed Linux, too, right before the big suit.

  18. The problem... by rehtonAesoohC · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think the most obvious problem here is that the Linux community (not partnering with Microsoft) has an eye that sees things without a shade of green around everything. There isn't money to be made in every aspect of what it looks at, and is only interested in improving what they already have. Microsoft and partners looks at it with green tinted goggles (The goggles, they do nothing!) and tries to find ways to eke out money regardless of making improvements.

    If they have to improve something to make money, then that would be their motivation.

    I think the Linux community itself is divided, however. There are several companies trying to make money from Linux (Red Hat), and then there are other groups of people who are intent on making sure Linux remains open source and free for all...

    I would think that either Linux needs to remain completely free and open source for ALL distributions, or Microsoft is going to start sticking its fingers into the pie, trying to figure out where the money drip is.

  19. More out of the media beast babeling mouth..... by 3seas · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...is it a slow news day?

    This persistent nagging as to how this or that or the other are issues the linux community has to deal with or they will fall and linux will be no more....bla bla blaaaa..pff pff spit..

    This sort of shit out of the mouth has been going on since Linus first announced his plans to create linux. Perhaps it was going on before that even with article on Stallman.

    I'd really honestly sincerely like to see the stats as to how many of these stories and anal-analists have actually panned out. And that includes SCO and Microsoft shit babeling about Linux...

    what's the score? absolute BS __________________________________________ vs. Panned Out _
    (space alloted for answers)

  20. Stupid Linux... by Pojut · · Score: 1

    look at all the trouble you are causing! /ducks

  21. Why is Slashdot.. by Safiire+Arrowny · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why is Slashdot helping to promote this type of fear by posting this type of article?

  22. Missed story by huckamania · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I thought this was going to be about desktop versus server linux. An Ubuntu vs IBM type of thing. Throw in some FUD about (un)fair schedulers and file access writes slowing things down, it would make for some interesting trolling. No takers?

    Anywhile, tagging the companies that work with MS as 'corporate' takes some serious spinning. I'm sure IBM, Sun, Oracle, Apple, etc would all chafe at being left out of the 'corporate' segment. But then, all 4 of them might qualify to be 'corporate' under these terms since most are in bed with MS already, to some degree.

  23. Stupid People by Delifisek · · Score: 2

    Is there any successful partnership with Microsoft...

    M$ is black widow... No one get any benefit from them...

    IBM, Stac, Sybase ...

    Clever people learn other's mistakes, stupid people learn own mistakes...

    --
    [My english is better than most other people's Turkish, so please point out mistakes politely. Thank you.]
  24. Microsoft a Linux Leader! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Something like that was unconceivable 3-4 years ago.

  25. Re:Hmm... Pretty similar to my article from March by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    I dunno.. just smacks of something I wrote 5 months ago...

    Well, that's because you're a fucking clairvoyant hero and absolutely everyone should endeavour to be like you.

    Did you post for any reason other than to point out how awesome you are? No. No, you sure didn't.

  26. Sounds Like FUD To Me by maz2331 · · Score: 1

    I smell a FUD campaign here.

  27. Re:Hmm... Pretty similar to my article from March by AVee · · Score: 1

    So, conspiricy theorists are rarely original. And writers of 'opinion' pieces on open source websites are the worst kind.

    Please stop fighting these 'freedom stealing' windmills and start enjoying your freedoms. You do realize you lost your all your copyleft freedoms the moment you started writing stuff like this when you could have been writing cool software, testing some beta version of something or even installing Linux on the PC of you mother in law? It's useless to make such a fuss about what the rest of the world does with OSS software, it doesn't help anybody, it doesn't change anything.

    Just don't spend a dime on 'patent protecting' or other shit like that. And if somebody else want to pay MS tax, pay licenses, get crappy software, etc. just let them have it. Who cares when the all these closed source companies sue each other to death? Just ignore it.

  28. Pure "Manichaeism" by pablochacin · · Score: 1

    Manichaeism "A dualistic philosophy dividing the world between good and evil principles. . ." from Free Online Dictionary

  29. Speculation and FUD by El+Lobo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The original article is no more than FUD and speculation... Corporate Linuzz? I though THAT thing (whatever that is) existed before MS got it's deal with Novell... RedHat anyone? And that is a bad thing why? There will always be corporated Linuzzz distributions whoever is working on it, be it MS, RedHat, or some new player. The real deal is, let it be? Don't want it? Don't use it, but for satan's sake, let anybody who wants use it without bitching!!!

    It's not like somebody is desecrating the Holy Bible, (even if sometimes it seems so judging by some comments here!). Hell, i'm a proud Windows user but I use a lot of Open Source, Freeware, 3rd party software and even (of the horror) Apple software without problems. Why must some linuzzz folk be so purit. It's all about chosing, so chose NOT to use "corporated" distros, and let everybody who wants use it!

    --
    It's time to realise that Abble's products are the biggest abomination these days. Just say NO to the dumb iAbble way!!
    1. Re:Speculation and FUD by mlts · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm for a "corporate" or "enterprise" version of Linux, because it gets Linux more mindshare. Its a lot easier to adopt an OS if you know the "big boys" are running it, than if its not that well known or proven in the enterprise.

      I've posted about this on other threads, but having a distro of Linux that has certifications like Common Criteria, FIPS, and others is always a plus. This allows companies to show that they are doing due diligence and satisfy the legal eagles.

      I do worry about "Tivo-ization" though.

    2. Re:Speculation and FUD by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 1

      I'm still going to retain my concern that things will focus more on what companies want than on the desktop, its all being held together right now because the kernel is maintained by people with (mostly) no bias toward one use or platform, and that will probably continue given the number of devs working on it, i'm sure there will always be someone willing to maintain the kernel and prevent a split.

      I'm also concerned about Tivos use of the initrd to do integrity checks, but i think the larger issue is the software. If tivo complies with the terms of the GPL, giving back the mods they make to software, to their users, i have no problem with them. I also think altering the license is a bad way to attack tivo and will fail at its intent, driving them to use another platform instead.

    3. Re:Speculation and FUD by sg_oneill · · Score: 1

      Dead right. Redhat has always been (well, in recent history anyway) a "Corporate" linux, and one companies happen to trust.

      But even a truly 'community' linux like Debian gets good corporate leverage, simply because most linux staffers see themself as members of the linux community.

      Sure boss , you COULD pay that exorbitant Redhat support fee, but theres a perfectly good LUG email list, and some amazingly talented guys (and gals) on it that'd love to be paid to give you much more personalized advice. Hell, some of them work for companies you can sue if they fuck up.

      Still don't like Debian? Theres always Centos.

      The Community/Corporate divide is imaginary.

      I will admit to being nervous about the Novell deals. I don't think any serious Linux people actually care about Linspire however. Just saying.

      --
      Excuse the Unicode crap in my posts. That's an apostrophe, and slashdot is busted.
  30. where exactly is the FUD .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    Where exactly in the article did you see FUD ..

    was: Re:Sounds Like FUD To Me

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
    1. Re:where exactly is the FUD .. by Safiire+Arrowny · · Score: 1

      This insinuation that MS is causing a 'coming divide' in the Linux community.

    2. Re:where exactly is the FUD .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

      "This insinuation that MS is causing a 'coming divide' in the Linux community

      "is he saying he wants FOSS to become, instead of a competitor, more like a kind of cheap subsidiary that innovates principally for Microsoft's benefit? Microsoft gets innovation and code and makes money from it. Maybe some patents you didn't notice, too. Linux vendors on the bridge make some money. You get nothing"

      "Linspire has now signed a patent deal with Microsoft, which I'm sure does not surprise you. They've been foreshadowing it for some time. Linspire says that Microsoft will now help them deliver a "better Linux". As you know, that has long been Microsoft's dream"

      "BayStar Capital has invested in SCO to the tune of $50 million. They call it a private investment transaction"

      --
      davecb5620@gmail.com
    3. Re:where exactly is the FUD .. by Safiire+Arrowny · · Score: 1

      Are you a bot or do you just like posting that?

  31. where exactly is the FUD .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    Where exactly in the article did you see FUD ..

    was: Re:Why is Slashdot..

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  32. Re: divide by indiejade · · Score: 2
    Z0mg, what is this?

    The least desirable scenario is for Microsoft to benefit/profit from/soak up any of the good-vibes associated with Linux. And any kind of "partnership" with M$ -- whether corporate or community -- would do just that. The "corporate vs. community" headline is misleading. It is not and should not be a matter of fragmenting Linux developers or potential end-users according to corporate or community motives.

    Being 'corporate' is not necessarily bad for Linux. Indeed, I think the only way any Linux entity can possibly hope to compete with or gain any significant market share from M$ is by playing on the same type of field -- albeit an economic business-oriented field. I have made this analogy before, and I shall make it again: If operating systems were burgers, M$ Windows (or Vista) would be like the cheap (as in quality), easy, greasy Big Mac of OSes. Works fine for some people, but surely there's market demand for something a little more gourmet.

  33. don't comment on the article .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    Don't comment on the article, instead talk about the layout ..

    ws: Re:Where's the beef?

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
    1. Re:don't comment on the article .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is what Slashdot is for. Where have you been the last 10 years?

      1). Never read the fucking article
      2). Comment as loudly as possible on any random subject
      3). ??????
      4). Profit!

  34. Free software isn't always great. by maillemaker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    That's the conclusion I've come to.

    What are the things championed here on Slashdot more than anything else? DRM and Free Software.

    So why is it that I couldn't find a free solution to ripping and re-encoding DVDs? I must have tried 5 or 6 different applications with no luck - the audio and video were always out of sync. Even tried the much-ballyhooed Auto Gordian Knot with the same result. Reading the support forums is a joke. "Oh, you need to go pull it up in AutoDub or VirtualDub and adjust the sync rate". Oh, go download this and that codec to make it work.

    It seems like you needed 5 or 6 independent "free" pieces of the pie to make it go, and none of them did the trick.

    What did I finally do? I went and spent $80 over at Slysoft for a single software package that just worked.

    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
    1. Re:Free software isn't always great. by Lxy · · Score: 3, Informative

      So why is it that I couldn't find a free solution to ripping and re-encoding DVDs?

      K9copy? On Debian I found K9copy very easy to install, very easy to use, and almost flawless at ripping and encoding. I have yet to find a mis-sync in my backed up DVDs. The hardest part is you have to add the contrib and non-free repos into Debian so it'll grab DeCSS. That's not very hard :-). If you're using Ubuntu, multiverse is the equivalent. I'm guessing on Fedora you can add livna and get the same results, though I haven't tried.

      I have seen problems on many distros in having to build things together, and I agree, DVD playback and encoding has been painful until recently. K9Copy + [recent well supported distro] seems to be the quickest fix.

      --

      There is no reasonable defense against an idiot with an agenda
      :wq
    2. Re:Free software isn't always great. by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

      "It seems like you needed 5 or 6 independent "free" pieces of the pie to make it go, and none of them did the trick."

      Wellcome to Free Software. Our developers reuse code, that is why they can beat Microsoft and you can still get their code for free most of the times.

      If you were using a system with a modern approach to software instalation, that wouldn't be a problem, but you seem to be using Windows... Well, there is a price you pay for that. After things are installed, they often integrate quite well.

      Also, keep in mind that most free video tools use the available OS functionality. So, if you use them on Windows, you'll be locked into the rendering of Windows Media Player, most people don't like that.

    3. Re:Free software isn't always great. by sobachatina · · Score: 1

      Don't use OSS if you get frustrated easily.

      I gave up on GUI DVD rippers.

      I use:
      mencoder dvd://1 -o 'movie.avi' -aid 128 -oac mp3lame -lameopts q=5:vbr=2:abr=160:aq=5:ratio=50:mode=0:vol=0 -ovc lavc -vf scale -xy 640 -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:vhq:vqmin=2:vqmax=31:vbitrate=1300

      And it cost me only 15 minutes of time (to learn how to use mencoder).

    4. Re:Free software isn't always great. by Perky_Goth · · Score: 1

      Stereo sound only (according to The Linux Action Show, anyway.) Bit crap, that.

  35. main points .. by rs232 · · Score: 1

    "GPLv3 Enforcement: This Could Become a Bumpy Road"

    "Working Together As a Community to Leave Behind Microsoft Media Formats"

    "Separating the Weak From the Strong"

    "No matter how hard we try to down play it, the patent threats and deals that are being made because of them are hurting the community - it's a simple fact. The real trick will be to see who sticks this out and who falls back to closed source alternatives, as we see Linux getting split with IP politics"

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  36. Actually Redhat is back in the desktop market... by msimm · · Score: 1

    See here. I've personally never used it, only the servers variants, so I couldn't say what's new or interesting about it (aside from the fact that they've re-entered that market). It's based on 5, which unlike Vista *does* feel like an incremental step forward, so there's that.

    --
    Quack, quack.
  37. Re:Boring by somersault · · Score: 1

    Around here, new must be you.

    --
    which is totally what she said
  38. Two points by einhverfr · · Score: 1, Informative

    First, I think that all FOSS licenses will keep us free (GPL, BSD, MIT, Apache, etc). In fact, I have made contributions to BSD-licensed software and GPL-licensed software. It doesn't matter to me what license is used provided that it doesn't contain onerous restrictions (I have no plans to do anything under the Affero Public License, for example because it is too EULA-like and I am *very glad* that the FSF saw the light and only gave a linking exception to that license rather than allowing for the worst terms of the license to be included as optional terms for the GPL v3).

    Secondly, many of us contribute to FOSS because it makes business sense to do so. Simply saying "we believe in it so we can keep it going agaisnt the world" in some ways devalues the real economic and business reasons and hence shortchanges the community on an opportunity for recruitment.

    FOSS is good for business. Freedom is an economic good (and more freedom may or may not be better-- there are valid business reasons for choosing either the GPL or BSD license over the other depending on what you are trying to do). THe main reason for choosing the GPL is that you may not want your competitors to take your code and run with it. The main reason for choosing the BSD license is that you may want to help foster competition in an industry that is complimentary to your products or services.

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  39. What has Microsoft got to do with it.. by LingNoi · · Score: 2

    There is in fact a coming divide that will hit the Linux community like a freight train. The battle lines have already been drawn, and companies that support Linux, such as Canonical, will eventually find themselves fiercely pitted against companies like Linspire, who only a short time ago, entered into an agreement of cooperation.
    As a Linux user I don't see what this has to do with Microsoft or why they where even mentioned at all. It seems to be more to do with a divide between Linux distributions you have to pay for and ones you don't.

    Canonical has made Linux Desktop a reality and now companies like Novell are suffering because of it.

    No matter how hard we try to down play it, the patent threats and deals that are being made because of them are hurting the community - it's a simple fact.
    How so? Maybe for the US but not the rest of the world.

    A clash between the different versions of the GPL have already begun
    Mixing GPL 2 and 3 code is not much of a problem if the project is using the "or at your option any later version" clause as most projects are. If not then you're screwed but in reality I fail to see any real cases of this happening. Note its only code, you could have GPL 2 and 3 applications running no problem side by side.

    This article is all over the place what is the main point of this article again? It went from distribution divides, to licensing issues, to patent problems. arrgh! stay on topic!
  40. should the english language have an owner? by hopeless+case · · Score: 2, Interesting

    so that someone can go after shoddy writers/speakers and thus bring responsibility to language?

    Human languages are the same sort of beast that large open source software systems (like linux) are, only more so. To wit: a system of such complexity and scope solving a set of problems so pervasive and enormous that the only hope for inventing it in the first place, and for maintaining it, is for everyone to spend a lot of time practicing it and tinkering with it and for insights to be passed around freely. The immediate payoffs for all of this experimenting are the everyday problems of communication people need to solve; this is how we pay for all of the time everyone spends experimenting with and using language, without the need for owners. If you tried to construct a patent system to encourage people to further the development of human language (and thus establish "owners"), is there any doubt you would kill it?

    Did you ever see that episode of "the Tick" where the tick runs into an alien that is fluent in all of earth's languages, except Esperanto, because "it was obvious from the start that that one was going nowhere."? The only reason an aritificial language like Esperanto can be designed at all is by cribbing off of the already existing natural languages.

    This is a bit off topic but I similarly contend that the only reason most general purpose operating systems get off the ground at all is that they all had Unix to use as a crib. It took generations of graduate students tinkering with Unix to make it a useful general purpose operating system and what they achieved was cribbed off of by all modern proprietary generaly purpose OSes.

  41. This thread is a straw man argument by pigiron · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Defiance" of GPL'd Linux already has a name. It's called BSD.

  42. This Divide is Nothing New by Prototerm · · Score: 1

    The Linux community has always been split between the Pragmatists and the Faithful, so this is nothing new. Gnu/Linux thrives in spite of this fact (or perhaps, horror or horrors, *because* of it), and that won't change anytime soon.

    --
    "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Senator Carl Schurz (1872)
    1. Re:This Divide is Nothing New by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      Actually, the community has always been divided between the Stallman fanatics that call Linux "GNU/Linux" and those that find that name rather silly and childish.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  43. Re:additional freedoms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The freedom to keep the code I contribute from being proprietarized.

  44. interesting dividing line by icepick72 · · Score: 1

    Using Microsoft is a bad dividing line to use. Linux is free to partner up with other commercial entities too. It just so happens at this time it's Microsoft. This must show some need somewhere, otherwise it wouldn't have started to happen. I see many posts about how this is bad, but does anybody have points about the bright side?

  45. Corporate Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Isn't RHEL corporate-grade Linux? How about Ubuntu Server? I don't understand how they equate MS-indemnified to corporate-grade.

    1. Re:Corporate Linux? by realdodgeman · · Score: 1

      Ubuntu Server is freely available from Ubuntu.com. It is also maintained by the community.

    2. Re:Corporate Linux? by ItsLenny · · Score: 1

      i think you mean "Commercial Grade" as in usable byr commercial applications

      what this article means by Corporate vs Community is versions that are freely available vs ones that you HAVE to pay for

      --
      ----------
      Trying to fix or change something only guarantees and perpetuates it's existence
    3. Re:Corporate Linux? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You have to pay for RedHat or SuSE if you want to hook your server up to an EMC array for storage, otherwise you are S.O.L. and they will say that is an unsupported configuration and you are on you own, it's a ploy to keep the "community" versions of linux out of the corporate market. It does not matter if the manageability is 100 times better, or the OS is more stable. Corporate Bastards!

  46. MS is late to Divide and Conquer by marcosdumay · · Score: 1

    So, the community is divided on those that made a deal with Microsoft (I'll call those ones "Dead") and those without such deal (I'll call those "Other"). Well, big deal! We have yet another pair of labels to put on each other... And the "Dead" ones won't even stay long enough to make a big number.

    Microsoft is trying to divide and conquer the community. The only problem is that we are already divided, and are strong that way. If that was a sucessfull strategy, Microsoft would jump directly to the "conquer" part.

    Personaly, I am still amused to Microsoft behaviour... I am waiting them to show their real plan because that one is only enough to gain some time (until they are ready?) not to win.

  47. If MS was smart... by ItsLenny · · Score: 1

    they wouldn't partner with Linux companies...

    they would simply release (and they have the man power to do it EASILY) a software package for linux compatible with all versions for like $50 or whatever.. that includes all the Codecs and drivers and whatever else.. basically everything that they're partners are getting out of them... and just sell it to the community directly

    --
    ----------
    Trying to fix or change something only guarantees and perpetuates it's existence
  48. Freedom Again. by twitter · · Score: 1

    So why is it that I couldn't find a free solution to ripping and re-encoding DVDs?

    Because DVD ripping software is not free in the US. The DMCA makes it a crime to share that software, even to tell people where the parts are. To use that kind of software, you have to import the pieces through a non-US distribution. Because most of the English world slavishly tracks US law, the import is hard to find in English as well. It can be done but it would be much easier if the US were a free country with laws that reflected the will of the majority instead of the will of a few large media companies.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  49. Another guy trying to stir up trouble by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 1

    Don't even need to read the article.

    It's obvious. People just want to argue about this - not enough Perl vs PHP, or Web 2.0 flamewars going, I guess.

    The only "divide" there is in the community is between the FSF fanatics and everybody else.

    Personally, I say STFU and get back to coding.

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
  50. Re:Boring by dynomitejj · · Score: 0

    I've been reading slashdot since 1999. It seems that this used to be the place to get good tech articles, but it seems that the quality has degraded over the years. The -1 really is not nice. It's just my opinion, don't take it personal.

  51. Re:Boring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    around cock, suck must be you.

  52. Where can you get it? by maillemaker · · Score: 1
    --
    A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
    1. Re:Where can you get it? by sobachatina · · Score: 1

      It is.

      I have no idea if it will avoid any audio sync issues but it works perfectly for me.

      I don't know if you care but for the sake of posterity- I actually do a two pass encoding. It takes twice as long but it results in smaller, higher quality files:

      mencoder dvd://$title -o /dev/null -aid 128 -oac copy -ovc lavc -vf scale -xy 640 -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:vhq:vqmin=2:vqmax=31:vbitrate=1300:vp ass=1
      mencoder dvd://$title -o '$movie.avi' -aid 128 -oac mp3lame -lameopts q=5:vbr=2:abr=160:aq=5:ratio=50:mode=0:vol=0 -ovc lavc -vf scale -xy 640 -lavcopts vcodec=mpeg4:vhq:vqmin=2:vqmax=31:vbitrate=1300:vp ass=2

    2. Re:Where can you get it? by maillemaker · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info. I have been using 3-pass encoding with the SlySoft stuff and the quality is very good. A typical DVD ends up as about a 1.7GB .AVI file. The thing I am really amazed about with the Slysoft stuff is it takes about 30 minutes to rip and only about 40 minutes to re-encode!

      --
      A work that expires before its copyright never enters the public domain and thus enjoys eternal copyright protection.
  53. Re:Boring by somersault · · Score: 1

    Your post is a bit inflammatory, guess that's why it was modded down. I do agree with you in general, The Register seems to be going the same way, unfortunately (I've only been reading these sites for a couple of years too and it's noticeable!). While /. can be a bit hit and miss sometimes, there's plenty of good stuff too :p

    --
    which is totally what she said
  54. the rediscovering of UNIX by recharged95 · · Score: 1
    corporate Linux = rediscovering UNIX, that BTW, you can also use at home (i.e. community linux).

    I just hope companies realize (likely) all they need to do is recompile their code. It's something Solaris failed at with the JDS.

    Nothing new here, please move along.

  55. More like by blueZ3 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Welcome to the world of free software, where developers write software for their own use, without reference to pesky things like interoperability, interface standards, or usability.

    Let's face it, what's holding free software back isn't some evil conspiracy by a shadowy group of corporations working behind the scenes to subvert the moral goodness of the software ecosystem. It's the apparent inability of free software developers to make their code attractive at any level other than price.

    In my opinion, the essential examples of this are gimp and Ubuntu.

    Why is Ubuntu popular? Not because it's Windows-y, but because it installs painlessly (without the requiring obscure command-line incantaions that a lot if distros do). You pop in the CD and answer about five questions and you wind up with a box that has all the "standard" software (a browser and some basic tools) that's on the network and ready to go. The interface is clean, it generally works in expected ways (keyboard shortcuts do what you expect, it has a "trash can", etc)

    The gimp, on the other hand, is a messy pile of usability errors looking for a home. Obscure names for common tools are only the start--the odd behavior of the separate application windows is also egregious.

    Free software will only become a real competitor to close software when people espousing it come to the realization the price is not the only factor.

    Sorry for the rant :-)

    --
    Interested in a Flash-based MAME front end? Visit mame.danzbb.com
  56. Copyright fallacy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "does not grant the freedom to deny other people the same freedom"


    That sentence makes absolutely no sense. If I license something under license x, then no one can revoke that license (but me, and yes, this includes code written under the GPL).

    The actions of a third party are IRRELEVANT when talking about the freedom of code that _I_ have released. Even if they decide only to redistribute in binary form, my distribution of source is always available. Thus, even if I use a "permissive" license, no user has the right to deny _my_ source to others, making your definition ("does not grant the freedom to deny other people the same freedom") completely meaningless.

    Rephrase your definition and try again.

    Copyleft* trolls are funny.

    *Before you respond, please don't assume that my position is for or against the GPL, it is just an argument showing the fallacy of a terrible definition.
    1. Re:Copyright fallacy... by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "If I license something under license x, then no one can revoke that license (but me, and yes, this includes code written under the GPL)."

      Sorry to say, but you are wrong. You can't revoke the GPL on your own code. Point in case: you write your "Mangnificent Hello World 1.0" and pass me a copy under the GPL; you can't come tomorrow telling me you were wrong and my copy of "Mangnificent Hello World 1.0" is under the GPL no more. Yes, you can distribute further copies of "Mangnificent Hello World 1.0" under a different license (but then you aren't revoking anything, since those copies were never distributed under the GPL or any other license), but you certainly can't revoke the GPL on copies already distributed.

      "The actions of a third party are IRRELEVANT when talking about the freedom of code that _I_ have released."

      Unless, of course, you decide them NOT TO BE IRRELEVANT when talking about the freedom of code that _YOU_ have released. Which is exactly the position of those that decide to release their code under the GPL.

      "making your definition ("does not grant the freedom to deny other people the same freedom") completely meaningless."

      What does COAUERO mean to me? Exactly: whatever I feel it means. There's quite a lot of people that have quite a strong feeling that using a derivative of their own work in order to build closed programs hurts the "freedom" they wanted both for their code and their code users, and certainly I can see their point. And they express their feeling on a license in accordance, name the GPL. You don't feel it that way? That's wonderful; then you distribute your code under i.e. the BSD and that's all. Not to stablish any direct comparation but just an analogy (on the terms *I* want it to apply it, not yours, since it's *my* analogy, not yours): some people felt that somehow "real freedom" was not only on making their own slaves free but in even fighting the freedom of other to own slaves; probably others would have said that can't be a freedom one that imposes one's own point of views upon others, much less by using the force. Who one is right? That would make for quite a dense debate without end, but even then it's obvious both parts have a sensible point.

      "Copyleft* trolls are funny."

      I understand and even align with the previous poster's opinion: yes I think GPL vs BSD can be seen as a position of "there's no freedom to deny freedom to others" just like I feel that there's somehow more "freedom" on copyleft than in "no limits once published" regardless if you "see" what I mean or not. Can you really say on stright face I'm being trollish about that?

    2. Re:Copyright fallacy... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      For starters, please remember TFA. We are talking about a case where the author owns the majority of the code. And while they cannot use the copylefted material that was donated by others, we are still talking the legal position of only their work. Thus, we are side-stepping the issue of copyleft. We are talking about the article (revoking a license), not the side effects of it.

      (Please note the title of my original post)

      About "Mangnificent Hello World 1.0:"

      What you are saying is that the GPL > author's rights in terms of copyright law. (Modern copyright law revolves around the rights of authors)

      Here is the description of a case where a GPL'd work is used with a proprietary one. Here's the juicy bit:

      Similarly, when you hear that the GPL is viral and can force proprietary code to become GPL, which a couple of lawyers have been saying, you'll know that isn't true. If you steal GPL code, you can expect an enforcement action. But this action can only be enforcement of a license, not a contract, and a forced release under the GPL can't be imposed on you under copyright law. It's not one of the choices, as Professor Moglen has explained. You do have a choice under the GPL: you can stop using the stolen code and write your own, or you can decide you'd rather release under the GPL. But the choice is yours. If you say "I choose neither," the court can impose an injunction to stop you from further distribution, but it won't order your code released under the GPL. Your code remains yours, as you can see, even in a worst case scenario.

      If I give you my GPL'd code, I am only giving you a license to my code, not a contract (estoppel (which I presume is the case you are arguing) is under contract, not licensing law). I would not be able to revoke a contract, but, as an author, I can revoke a license.

      On "there's no freedom to deny freedom to others"

      He used the word troll, and I repeated it. We are talking about legal affairs, how you "feel" about things is irrelevant (which of course is similar to saying "I feel my code works"). That definition of the GPL is imprecise at best (it implies things that the GPL does not, and cannot do) and incorrect at worst (in the case of an author revoking the code, it is incorrect). It means that authors do not have the right to license their copyrighted material as they please. Copyright law alone means that _only_ the original author has the right to license their work, and as long as they do not place it in the public domain, no one can change the license.

      What the GPL does is force distributors to distribute code as well (with the BSD license, they are only required to give a copy of the license with the relevant author's details on it, but notice that in both cases the code is available, the only difference is that you may have to look harder for the BSD licensed code). The other part (as mentioned in the link and quote) is what you must do to statically link your code to GPL licensed stuff (this is copyleft, what the BSD license lacks). You still have the option not to GPL your code, but that means that you lack distribution rights.

      Again, this argument isn't anti-GPL, it is only an argument that there is no way to "sudo copyright_law" (aside from being in government and changing copyright law, but since most don't have this ability it is irrelevant), no matter how convenient it would make things. An author can revoke the BSD license on their code too, in fact, I think everything I've said is just as relevant to the BSD license as it is GPL. And that is where I think you are mistaken, you assume that I'm discussing the negatives of the GPL, when I'm really just trying to clarify copyright law. I've reviewed many licenses to ensure that I'm getting what I want (and can have) out of them. All I will say on the license debate is that I believe in choosing the right tool for the job

  57. Think of what it's worth. by twitter · · Score: 1

    "If Microsoft releases Windows for free we've lost."

    I would not use Windows for important things, even if you paid me.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  58. err by Vexorian · · Score: 1

    1 . GPLv3 Enforcement: This Could Become a Bumpy Road
    oh no, please no more GPLv3 controversy , it is just a license for god's sake!

    You can think Novell and Linspire might threaten the GPLv3, but the fact is Novell doesn't seem interested and Linspire is simply too lame to be able to do that...

    Working Together As a Community to Leave Behind Microsoft Media Formats.
    Wasn't this already happening ,before the deals?

    Separating the Weak From the Strong. Regardless of your opinion of how this is going to go down, whether or not we'll see the Linux community split, the fact is that these powerful events happening with Microsoft, Novell and Linspire have already gestured many of us. No matter how hard we try to down play it, the patent threats and deals that are being made because of them are hurting the community - it's a simple fact. The real trick will be to see who sticks this out and who falls back to closed source alternatives, as we see Linux getting split with IP politics.
    I see them more as "attempts" to hurt the community rather than things that will work.

    It is silly when you consider that the top corporate Linux vendor wants nothing to do with Microsoft, I think it is a fallacy to say that the deals are required for corporate business, perhaps for dumb business, but I really don't see much going on

    Companies might love to close stuff, the thing is that unfortunately they can't, GPL ensures that once something is open it cannot be closed again, whether it is GPLv2 or GPLv3 it doesn't matter, hope this teaches the people that really use simply permissive licenses to notice why they need something stronger

    --

    Copyright infringement is "piracy" in the same way DRM is "consumer rape"
  59. New Editor Needed by patiodragon · · Score: 1

    Just moments ago it was "MySQL closes its source" (which it hadn't), now a nonsensical, bipolar, I'll-let-you-know-what-you-can-decide headline from the same brainless moron.

    If I spent more than 10 minutes on this site, I'd figure out how to filter out all of CmdrTaco's posts. What a lame excuse for a "journalist".

  60. Who will stand . . . by frankenheinz · · Score: 1

    . . . .against the coming M$-Novell-Sun-(IBM?) Behemoth? Only Ubuntu, I think.

    --
    The law is not an ass. No really.
  61. Nothing to see here, move along by Allnighterking · · Score: 1

    While I'll admit that this kind of article makes for great sound bytes on *ox news. I don't agree with the premise of the article one bit. I understand the coffers of Microsoft make for deep pockets, but since they are in the middle of their 3rd flop OS (Bob, ME now Vista) they have gone heavily hardware (Which Bill Gates wrote in his book would be a sign that MS had lost it's way in the market) and design problems with their best selling (but still unprofitable) hardware the Xbox. You could very well say that MS is starting to thrash. Their puppet lost it's buns recently (SCO) and the IP that MS had so graciously purchased is now the property of Novel. I see MS using the agreements more to prevent Novel from lashing out than to really divide Linux. Xandros and Linspire are only slightly more popular than Slackware, with SuSE being the only deep water player in that camp (ala United Linux). As long as Mandriva, Red Hat, and the Ubuntu family don't follow most likely the MS play will suffer the same fate as United.

    Too many people forget just exactly how impossible it is to hold onto something like Linux. The truth be known the whole of the SCO debacle has in fact made Linux stronger. Lawyers, Paralegals, News Media types etc who never would have otherwise heard of Linux now know what it is and use it. Geeks who previously could give a rats about the legal side of the GPL, suddenly have put a lot of effort into learning about it, at worse they learned the value of the legal side. GPL3 exists in many ways as a well thought out response to close the holes of GPL2.

    Microsoft as a dominate force now has 4 fronts to fight on. 1. Apple, Steve just plain out markets them. 2. Linux, it may never dominate the desktop but it does rule the server room. 3. The Web. Mozilla/Firefox has enabled things to the point that Ajax like applications can be webalized to the point of being as useful as locally held apps. 4. Google, They made their mark doing what MS didn't want then proceded to begin chiping away at what the do want.

    Now that Dell Lenovo HP and others are beginning to openly sell Linux laptops etc, perhaps MS is hedging their bet more than the old days of divide and conquer.

    --

    I'm sorry, I'm to tired to be witty at the moment so this message will have to do.

  62. Mad Penguin is probably an M$ astroturf site by bit01 · · Score: 1

    Practically every single story on that site, including the name of the site itself, is a subtle OSS FUD piece. Many of the "third party" comments also.

    Marketers aren't stupid; they know that overt FUD'ing doesn't always work so they do more subtle forms as well.

    Many people greatly underestimate the financial resources that are spent on marketing in general and astroturfing in particular. Comments by company executives are just the tip of the iceberg. M$ and their "partners" probably have hundreds if not thousands of lying astroturf sites of various kinds and large nunmbers of people paid to "comment" (lie actually) on sites like slashdot. Part of the problem is that many of those people astroturfing believe their own propaganda and are in denial about the fact that they're frauds.

    Among other things they will be regularly submitting company propaganda to slashdot. Some of it's bound to get through. Remember vista? Many months of practically daily content free trash. And that was before it was even released.

    ---

    Astroturfing "marketers" are liars, fraudulently misrepresenting company propaganda as objective third party opinion.

  63. But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by einhverfr · · Score: 1

    With the GPL you cannot:

    1) Write softare that uses OpenSSL in a way as to be a derivative work of that software despite the fact that OpenSSL is Free Software by the FSF's own definition (and they even classify the license as Free).

    2) create software which is derivative of GPL v 2 (only) software and Apache License v2 software even though both are Free Software licenses by the FSF's terms.

    3) Create software which is derivative both of GPL software (any version) and Mozilla Public License software even though both respect the 4 basic freedoms.

    The GPL is the best tool we have to release software we want to do open source without having other companies proprietize it. But it does have other restrictions which go beyond the "you can't take other people's freedom."

    I would like to see a list of linking exceptions built into the GPL. It would go a long way toward actually resticting the limitations to what you say.

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    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    1. Re:But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by pilot1 · · Score: 1

      Your points can be reduced to the same thing: the GPL is incompatible with many other Free Software licenses. This is true. The issue is that the same provisions which make it impossible for others to take away the freedom that the GPL gives you make it impossible for GPL software to be relicensed under many licenses.

      A linking exception as you suggested may help increase compatibility with other licenses, but by increasing compatibility with Free Software licenses it also increases compatibility with proprietary licenses. This may or may not be desired by the copyright holder, and its desirability is dependent on the nature of the program, which is why it isn't built into the GPL.

      Of course, this problem would go away if everyone used the GPL (or a BSD-style license in appropriate cases); the problem only exists because multiple Free Software licenses do. Not that the GPL is perfect, but I don't believe any of its flaws are sufficient reason to use another license (excluding BSD-style licenses for cases where universal adoption is required) without good reason.

    2. Re:But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      A linking exception as you suggested may help increase compatibility with other licenses, but by increasing compatibility with Free Software licenses it also increases compatibility with proprietary licenses. This may or may not be desired by the copyright holder, and its desirability is dependent on the nature of the program, which is why it isn't built into the GPL. Howso? How does allowing GPL code to *link* against old-style BSD licenses mean more compatibility with proprietary apps? If you are worried that someone could write an old-style BSD licensed bridge between proprietary code and GPL code, the same holds true already for LGPL and new-style BSD code. The *only* exception is the obnoxious advertising clause. How does that work exactly?

      Of course, this problem would go away if everyone used the GPL (or a BSD-style license in appropriate cases); the problem only exists because multiple Free Software licenses do. Not that the GPL is perfect, but I don't believe any of its flaws are sufficient reason to use another license (excluding BSD-style licenses for cases where universal adoption is required) without good reason. Agreed regarding the GPL v2. However, I think that the GPL v3 is a step back from the practical extension of the 4 basic freedoms into a war-on-terror "sacrifice freedom for the greater good" mentality.
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      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    3. Re:But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by pilot1 · · Score: 1

      Howso? How does allowing GPL code to *link* against old-style BSD licenses mean more compatibility with proprietary apps? If you are worried that someone could write an old-style BSD licensed bridge between proprietary code and GPL code, the same holds true already for LGPL and new-style BSD code. The *only* exception is the obnoxious advertising clause. How does that work exactly? The linking exception states:

      As a special exception, the copyright holders of this library give you permission to link this library with independent modules to produce an executable, regardless of the license terms of these independent modules, and to copy and distribute the resulting executable under terms of your choice, provided that you also meet, for each linked independent module, the terms and conditions of the license of that module. That exception allows the code to link with code under _any_ license, not just BSD. The license could be a proprietary one, at which point it's up to the author whether or not allowing linking with proprietary software is desirable in this instance. In cases where one is trying to gain users for a library or standard, it may be wanted. In other cases it may not be. As a general rule, I see no reason to let anyone use my code with proprietary software.
    4. Re:But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      My point being:

      How does the ability to link to old-style BSD code make the license more proprietary-friendly than the ability to link to LGPL code?

      You have not answered that question.

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      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    5. Re:But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by pilot1 · · Score: 1

      How does the ability to link to old-style BSD code make the license more proprietary-friendly than the ability to link to LGPL code? An exception that says "This code can link with BSD or LGPL code" does not. As I explained, an exception that says "This code can link with code under any license" does.
    6. Re:But the GPL *does* take away other freedoms by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      IANAL, again :-) However, the question of bridges between GPL and proprietary code is likely to be a more complex issue than anyone wants to admit, particularly RMS... In short, I suspect there are many cases where GPL code can be indirectly at least linked to proprietary code under standard EULAs provided that certain distribution conditions are met (i.e. a) the proprietary code is not derivative of GPL code, b) is distribute as a separate work, and c) any derivative portions are licensed under the LGPL or a similarly mutually compatible license). Examples might include the nVidia drivers for Linux and ndiswrapper.

      One of the real difficulties with the GPL vs LGPL is that you can run into questions involving "what constitutes derivation?" and "what is the work as a whole?" Does linking invoke these always? If so, then ndiswrapper in that it allows linking of the Linux kernel to closed source network drivers is a clear violation of every Linux kernel developer's copyrights. Does it? And by what definition? (ndiswrapper is clearly derivative of the Linux kernel and is released under terms compatible with the GPL, and it seems to me difficult to argue that the closed source drivers it supports are either derivative of part of the same work as a whole.)

      Suppose again, that you have a pre-existing proprietary system written for an entirely different environment which you create an LGPL bridge to use to link it to a GPL'd code (similar to the nVidia drivers). Clearly the proprietary system is not derivative of the free version and since nVidia distributes their drivers separately from the Linux kernel, it seems hard to make the claim that they are part of the "work as a whole."

      Because these are vague questions, I have no doubt (but IANAL) that different jurisdictions will give inconsistant interpretations of the license in cases which are more borderline than these (I would argue that both the nVidia drivers and ndiswrapper are allowed by the GPL because both cases essentially allow for the porting of drivers developed for other products to this software, and since they are distributed separately, they are not by any interpretation part of the same work as a whole). I would further note that RMS has been very critical of nVidia but has stopped short of accusing them of license violations publically at least.

      For example, if nVidia is allowed to distribute such closed source Linux drivers legally, does this mean that if I distribute a Linux kernel-based distro which includes these drivers, have I now violated the GPL in that the nVidia drivers are *now* part of the work as a whole? Or is this mere aggregation? Does this open up the possibility of lawsuits against some but not all Linux distributors even though nVidia, the developer, hasn't violated anyone's copyrights? I.e. can bundling of otherwise non-infringing works together in aggregate form an infringing work if they are sufficiently related to create a new "work as a whole?" Where do you draw the line between that and mere aggregation?

      In short, the GPL seems to allow (and in practice almost certainly does allow) the ability to create LGPL wrappers to connect pre-existing proprietary software (which is non-derivative) with GPL'd applications provided that they are not distributed as part of the work as a whole (note that this may not apply to the question of Apple's Objective C plugins for the GCC a while back because it is unclear that these a) had such a bridge, and b) were not written originally for the GCC and hence were not derivative). Yet it is not clear what rights it gives people downstream to distribute ready-to-use systems including that software.

      So I am not sure there is much proprietary code out there that could not be wrapped and connected to GPL code. I just don't think there is a way to write propreitary code initially for this purpose in a cost-effective way.

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      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
  64. Well, yes, yes it does by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linux is used in the server areas where high reliability is critical, and where components can be upgraded without taking systems down. Once the system is installed, Linux rarely needs to be rebooted except for a hardware problem. Normal software upgrades are handled on the run without rebooting, unlike WIndows. So service types in the public aren't dealing with reliability issues. They are dealing with J. Q. Public and his or her lint and cat-hair filled Windows boxen. In fact most of those installers are probably slightly less sophisticated than many of their clients, no more than a subset of J. Q. Public themselves. So, you're right that does explain quite a lot.

  65. Generic Aritcle for Shock Value by triso · · Score: 1

    Don't fret folks. This is just a generic article that the MadPenguin could use with different titles, for shock value.