The Forbidden City of Terry Gou

ElvaWSJ writes "Hon Hai churns out iPhones and Wiis, and provides a window into China's secretive world of outsourcing and manufacturing. With a work force of some 270,000 — about as big as the population of Newark, N.J. — the factory is a bustling testament to the ambition of Hon Hai's founder, Terry Gou. In an era when manufacturing has been defined by outsourcing, no one has done more to shift global electronics production to China. Little noticed by the wider world, Mr. Gou has turned his company into China's biggest exporter and the world's biggest contract manufacturer of electronics."

Comments

Ah, if only

[Stanistani]

Can I roam amongst the endless rows of bins filled with our disposable electronic baubles? Please?

I guess it's ...

[Anonymous Coward]

time to learn chinese.

Re:I guess it's ...

[flu1d]

I know that comment was probably meant as a joke but its probably a good idea just on a business standpoint. I don't see this Chinese economic train slowing down any time soon.

And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

He's done so without attempting to poison or kill his own customers.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[subl33t]

Yeah, just his employees.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

As far as you know. Also consider the working conditions, pay, benefits (or lack thereof) for the employees.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

Okay, here are the july 2007 Consumer Product Safety Commission recalls:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prereljul07.htm l

All American companies.

A few choice quotes:
"the battery can explode and pose a laceration hazard"
"The recalled metal jewelry sets contain high levels of lead."
"cause intestinal perforation or blockage, which can be fatal."
"The blower's impeller, which is a rotating component on the blower, can break, resulting in pieces of plastic flying out of the blower. This poses a risk of serious injury to the user or a bystander."

The chairman of that Chinese toy company who were recently found to have lead paint in one product?
He's committed suicide:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6943 689.stm

Now please reconsider your remark.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Too bad unions are illegal in China. Unionization was what it took to change that in the United States.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

I guess you didn't read the article.

They get paid $0.60 an hour (a lot in China), but they also get to live rent free, their food is subsidized, and they have free health care. They also get overtime pay and actually do get raises. I wouldn't mind that deal, if I were just starting out of high school and needed to work.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I missed that- that's a damn good deal in comparison to Ohio Arts employees, putting together etch-a-sketches for $0.24/hr.....

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Nick of NSTime]

They get paid $0.60 an hour (a lot in China), but they also get to live rent free, their food is subsidized, and they have free health care.

Oh, like the US military!

They also get overtime pay and actually do get raises.

Oh wait, never mind.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You fail to mention that EVERY ONE of those "American companies" buy parts from China- and it's the shoddy, non-unionized workmanship that is failing.

And that the Mattel recall (another American company that hired the Chinese toy company) also covered a heck of a lot more than one product- the recall was 5 PDF pages with pictures of hundreds of different products.

I wonder if the producer of all of those red & yellow Thomas the Tank Engines also killed himself? Or how about the Million Pounds of Fish intended for human consumption that was subject to an import alert this week?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[p0tat03]

Hon Hai is known for paying above the regional average and maintaining safer than average working environments. A far cry from living in a comfortable bungalow in California, but it's certainly much better than the average treatment employees get in China.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Danathar]

And...I bet they buy their food from the "company" owned store not with food but with company "credits" they are given.

You know this was how it was done back in the 19th century. It's close to slavery.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

Unlike the military, they are free to find employment elsewhere, and they don't have to worry about being shipped around the world to be blown up by some insurgants.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

So go do some research to find out. The article makes it sound like they are paid in yuan. The food is also much cheaper than if they bought it offsite.

It seems conditions are worlds better than other employers in China, and they'd probably rather work for this company than not have a job at all.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

"You fail to mention that EVERY ONE of those "American companies" buy parts from China- and it's the shoddy, non-unionized workmanship that is failing. "

And the products are also designed in China, assembled in China, QC tested in China, and have no parts made anywhere else?

There is nothing on the linked page to suggest that any of the products had anything to do with China at all.
Assuming they do, how can you be sure the particular failures were down to Chinese component manufacturing?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

And the products are also designed in China, assembled in China, QC tested in China, and have no parts made anywhere else?

Many "American" companies are now just shells- designers & importers that sell to retailers, nothing more. This has been going on for 40 years now- the slow de-industrialization of America. You can make parts in Mexico too- if you're willing to pay 2-4x as much for labor.

There is nothing on the linked page to suggest that any of the products had anything to do with China at all.

So? You can't do a little research into the state of American Manufacturing? Or have you missed the 40 years of articles warning about this danger?

Assuming they do, how can you be sure the particular failures were down to Chinese component manufacturing?

Because nobody else makes components anymore- low cost cheap labor is the winner, it's the race to the bottom. How do you justify spending $1/hr in Mexico to your stockholders when you could be spending $.60/hr, or even $0.24/hr? Let alone $9/hr for quality control once you get the shipping container back from Mexico? It's far cheaper overall to do these recalls when the customer finds a problem, at least from the point of view of so-called "American" companies (whom I call, free traitors- they're taking money and selling out the American consumer & worker in their search for cheap labor).

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[quarmar]

$0.60 an hour is listed as minimum wage, not "a lot in China".

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Guess I need to provide the link to prove that Ohio Arts is using a Chinese manufacturer that only pays $.24/hr- less than half the HIGH wage that Terry Gou pays.

Not that Terry Gou is any great shakes either.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[alienw]

Yeah, it's all the fault of the Chinese! Because we all know American companies were the pioneers of safety, and would never make unsafe products just to save a few cents.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Yeah, it's all the fault of the Chinese! Because we all know American companies were the pioneers of safety, and would never make unsafe products just to save a few cents.

If you look above, I clearly blame the American companies for searching for cheap labor to begin with. UNIONIZED workers, in the 1950s in America, on the other hand, took pride in making quality products- and marketed them as such.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Conditions in the Coal Mines of Pennsylvania thought they were getting a good deal too. And it was better conditions than other American employers were offering during the Great Depression.

All the more reason I'm for Fair Trade agreements- ones where only the countries that are willing to accelerate to American labor and environmental standards get the trade. Want to do business with American consumers? Accept American laws.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[xrobertcmx]

I do believe that was all covered in this book called the Jungle.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[tgd]

Yeah because unions do so much to protect quality.

*rolls eyes*

Unions protect the people at the low end at the expense of the people at the high end. There's no reason to perform well because you won't be payed more for it. In fact, because its so hard to fire you, you barely have to perform at all.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[MrMarket]

How do you justify spending $1/hr in Mexico to your stockholders when you could be spending $.60/hr, or even $0.24/hr? Let alone $9/hr for quality control once you get the shipping container back from Mexico? It's far cheaper overall to do these recalls when the customer finds a problem, at least from the point of view of so-called "American" companies (whom I call, free traitors- they're taking money and selling out the American consumer & worker in their search for cheap labor). You justify it by telling your stock holders they don't want compete against the ghost shift.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess that means on oil imports?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

You justify it by telling your stock holders they don't want compete against the ghost shift.

And they care why? HTC, the MiniOne, and other iClones will never match the marketing power of Apple.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

And yet a union-built 1967 American muscle car is often still on the road- where 1980 Japanese imports are rusting through.

Sorry- your obvious propaganda from management does not fit reality.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

ALL imports. Oil, manufacturing, textiles. But then again, I'm one of those who thinks that a self-sufficient America, that does not import, export, borrow, or lend, would be an excellent thing.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[CodeBuster]

They are not illegal in China (at least not the "official" ones), but the government controls all of them (in Soviet Russia the union controls you...or something like that) so the unions in China are more for keeping the workers in line than working on behalf of the workers. Why do you suppose that the only country where Walmart has not objected to unionization is China?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

You are comparing a luxury car to a cheap, dinky import? *roll eyes*
 
I dare you to drive a 1969 Mustang, or the 1969 Pontiac Trans Am, or the infamous Pinto.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I dare you to drive a 1969 Mustang, or the 1969 Pontiac Trans Am, or the infamous Pinto.

I've driven all three within the last 30 years. Aside from the Pinto- they were EXTREMELY high quality vehicles when built, many lasting to more than 400,000 miles of service.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[HungWeiLo]

I just got done talking with an uncle of mine who does a lot of business in China (he's pretty high up in an international engineering firm based in Hong Kong). He says that all the poisonings and shenanigans would not have gone on without the knowledge of their American clients (i.e. the CEOs who wanted to outsource to them in the first place). He says that, for example, extra lead levels in Mattel toys were most likely already known by the bosses in the U.S., and they were just betting that no one would find out (or that the cost of litigation is less than the cost of using materials with lower lead content). Cue the Fight Club quotes.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

How interesting- never mind the fact that the civilized world hasn't made lead based paint in 60 years, and the problems with lead poisoning have been known since the fall of the Roman Empire. Though I can believe it on the fish...

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

And handle like bricks on ball bearings?
 
Anyway my point is, if you want to compare reliability of cars, you should choose cars that share the same class.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[jafac]

And most of the money used to finance the purchase of these products comes from China too.

Something fishy about all this. . . .

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[tgd]

Having restored a number of vehicles from that era, I can quite assure you that the people who assembled them has NOTHING to do with that. Lower quality standards, thicker gauge metal, near non-existant environmental standards, etc all meant that the cars lasted longer and could tolerate wear and greater assembly variance than a modern car.

Cars today are rusting out because the better quality paints can't be used because of environmental regulations. Steel is thinner because gas is more expensive and weight matters. Engines are dramatically more complex and require much greater assembly precision and tolerate wear much less.

Also, strip the paint off that "1967 American muscle car" and see how much original bodywork is still there and how much is rust free.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

Read the article, dummy. Some employees live off campus, so obviously they are paid in real money, not company scrip.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[o2sd]

All the more reason I'm for Fair Trade agreements- ones where only the countries that are willing to accelerate to American labor and environmental standards get the trade. Want to do business with American consumers? Accept American laws.

So you mean that for America to import oil from the Middle East, Americans would need to accept Sharia law?

Or would it only work FOR Americans, (the most important people in the world)?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Adambomb]

The big thing is, people will only work as hard as they have to for the quality of life they desire. I remember working shops in colorado where we would have a large number of union workers, and temp workers to pick up the slack on big lines, and the union members would go absolutely BALLISTIC any time there was actual motivated workers among the temp pool. The worst thing was, the most efficient work in the place was being done by the temps while the union members sat on their asses and bitched. The amount of disparaging anti-mexican comments I heard over the course of my tenure there was pathetic considering the actual value and output of the people uttering them versus the value and output of those they were ripping on.

Now this may not be the case EVERYWHERE, but in every single union shop I have worked it has been the case. Granted these were all long standing unions in companies that have renegotiated reasonably frequently.

From the looks of it, Unions are necessary to protect the employees, but once the employees are protected, what else do they do?

Try to "Make Things Easier".

And this is personal experience, not bills or pamphlets.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

We are the world's consumers. America decides the rules of who gets our hard-earned dollars. So therefore, you have the system backwards:

So you mean that for America to import oil from the Middle East, Americans would need to accept Sharia law?

Other way around- they don't accept democracy, our environmental standards, the 40 hour workweek, etc. then we simply don't import their oil. We either do without, or better yet, we develop other sources of fuel and other forms of transportation because supposedly we are the great innovators as well.

Or would it only work FOR Americans, (the most important people in the world)?

No- works perfectly well for anybody else as well- don't by from people you don't consider to be equals. Europe and America however are supposedly so advanced that we have no other equals....

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Might it have actually been a war you were unfamiliar with- that is the war of management trying to lower wages by using temps to get around the union? Perhaps, just perhaps, the older union employees knew the *right way* to do things in that factory, and the "value and output" of the temp workers was not all it seemed in the long run.

Of course, far be it from the anti-union people to actually consider the long run.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Hucko]

How did USAians manage to fight their internal wars externally?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[o2sd]

We are the world's consumers.
Really?
World GDP:$65.95 trillion (2006 est.)
USA GDP: $13.13 trillion

Almost 20%, not bad, but hardly the world's only consumers.

Other way around- they don't accept democracy, our environmental standards, the 40 hour workweek, etc. then we simply don't import their oil. We either do without, or better yet, we develop other sources of fuel and other forms of transportation because supposedly we are the great innovators as well.

How's your plan going so far? Is this a phased approach, or are you going to go cold turkey?

No- works perfectly well for anybody else as well- don't by from people you don't consider to be equals.

Oh god, how I wish! The sooner my compatriots stop eating the bullshit junk food, junk values and junk entertainment that is vomited out of your country, the better.

Europe and America however are supposedly so advanced that we have no other equals....

Hey, close yourselves off, see how much the rest of us miss you. Oh, could you unwind your colonial empire while you're at it? You know, the military bases, the gun boats, the 1/2 million enforcers you have posted around the world. Thanks.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

So what happens to the trillions we owe the Chinese? How about the many trillions invested into US treasury bonds and company stocks. How about the dollar value being propped up by the oil trade ("petrodollar")?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[macro187]

...to American labor and environmental standards... Do you guys actually have any of those left?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

"They get paid $0.60 an hour (a lot in China), but they also get to live rent free, their food is subsidized, and they have free health care. They also get overtime pay and actually do get raises. I wouldn't mind that deal, if I were just starting out of high school and needed to work."

You're an idiot. I hope whoever modded you informative was joking around. If you really want to find out what working in china is like, take a look here:

http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/chinablue/

Here's a piece: http://youtube.com/watch?v=P0yfNOkBClI

What is happening over in china makes me absolutely sick. It can be said that their cost of living is lower, so they don't need to be paid as much. I call bullshit. These people are treated like shit. And for what, so some company can sell $50.00 jeans and make a $49 profit?
The people who are making these decisions are assholes. Pure and simple. People can trot out all the "it's a free market" and "supply and demand" or maybe "we have to be competetive" or whatever bullshit they say. There is no justification for what is happening. None.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[jhol13]

Want to do business with American consumers? Accept American laws. As nobody would accept them, how many days do you think USA would survive?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Yoozer]

Really?
World GDP:$65.95 trillion (2006 est.)
USA GDP: $13.13 trillion

Population world: 6.5 billion.
Population US: 300 million.

You're welcome.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[tehcyder]

Unions protect the people at the low end at the expense of the people at the high end. There's no reason to perform well because you won't be payed more for it.

Have you never heard of pay differentials? Do you think that a union just negotiates for one flat rate for all its members? Do you actually have any conception of reality?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[jamar0303]

Rusting through? Are you sure? Initial D fans beg to differ- especially the ones with Corolla GTSes (you know- the Hachi-Roku; some people even doll them up with decals to resemble the one in the anime).

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

We haven't had a war on our soil since the civil war.. so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

Did you even read my post? Here's the problem with the coal miners you refered to: "Under this system workers were not paid cash."

You realize that the yuan is the OFFICAL money of China, right? Its not company credits. So I don't quite see your parallel; these workers are earning and keeping money, the lodging and health care don't come off their paycheck. Its QUITE different from your wiki link...

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

What good is a minimum wage when most of the manufactors aren't following it? There's another company paying $0.24 an hour. Again, you need to do some more research.

Also, its not just minimum wage; they get free board, CHEAPER food than they could buy elsewehre (because the company helps pay for it), and free healthcare. Those aren't insignficant perks either; I'd have quite a bit more if someone was helping me pay for my food, pay my mortgage and for my healthcare.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[drsquare]

And...I bet they buy their food from the "company" owned store not with food but with company "credits" they are given.

You bet? So you don't actually know? And your entire post is based on...nothing?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[drsquare]

OK, so if an American company wanted to export to Europe, they'd have to accept 35 hour weeks, endless holidays, high minimum wages, paid overtime and huge corporation taxes?

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[drsquare]

What does that have to do with the price of fish? The US only takes up a fifth of the world's economy, no matter how many people are there.

And with the plummeting dollar combined with the credit crunch, American imports will plummet.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Go cold turkey- and on the military part, that's entirely the point. If we're self-sufficient, then we don't need to be going on stupid pre-emptive wars and adventures elsewhere- all we need to do is protect our own borders (a hard enough task, apparently, considering how incredibly badly we've done so far at it).

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Do you guys actually have any of those left?

It's the entire reason for offshore outsourcing- when a company can't meet minimum wage to stay on the shelves of Wal*Mart, or has factories that fail to meet environmental standards, we send them to Mexico or China....

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

So what happens to the trillions we owe the Chinese? How about the many trillions invested into US treasury bonds and company stocks. How about the dollar value being propped up by the oil trade ("petrodollar")?

Sell the FED central bank to the Chinese if they like the dollar so much, and replace it with something of real value- Ithaca Hours, where one hour of a Janitor's time is worth one hour of a farmer's time is worth one hour of a CEO's time.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

As nobody would accept them, how many days do you think USA would survive?

Depends where. Rural America would dust off those old 1970s FFA projects, start making moonshine to run the cars and generators on, and continue on much as before. The urban east and west coasts would take about a week before their citizens would start moving out in search of food- probably on foot because they're too stupid to make their own fuel. The East Coast would really start hurting for electricity pretty quickly, lighting the fire under ARPA-E to actually come up with a solution to the energy problem, and you'd soon find east coast ports blocked by fleets of generator buoys.

I'd say it'd take about three years to shake out the parasites who are currently living on imports- and you'd probably also see a massive exodus of illegal immigrants as the standard of living drops.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

If it wasn't for the lodging and health care, their paycheck would need to be higher. Therefore, a part of their paycheck is not in cash. In the case of the coal mines, some small portion of the paycheck was in cash as well; the lack of choice of where to buy food was the problem. In this case, the cash portion of the paycheck doesn't cover lodging and health care, so you're stuck with what the company gives you in that arena.

Still, it's a far better deal than the workers for Ohio Arts are getting....

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

OK, so if an American company wanted to export to Europe, they'd have to accept 35 hour weeks, endless holidays, high minimum wages, paid overtime and huge corporation taxes?

Yep. It's called a level playing field. In other words, it ends the cheating that is currently going on in capitalism. Ideally, the entire world accepts 35 hour work weeks, endless holidays, high minimum wages, paid overtime and huge corporate taxes as part of the standard cost of doing business. In return, they get a huge consumer culture with a lot of free time & cash on their hands (in other words, OPPORTUNITY!)

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[drsquare]

But it wouldn't work like that, as Europe wouldn't be able to do business with anyone else unless they changed their laws to match everyone else. In fact there would be no business at all unless there's a World Government.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

But it wouldn't work like that, as Europe wouldn't be able to do business with anyone else unless they changed their laws to match everyone else. In fact there would be no business at all unless there's a World Government.

Yep. That's exactly the point. International trade is an unacceptable national security risk- so the obvious answer is to build a single world government, so that unless the flying saucers come to get us, the only competition possible between regions is based entirely on natural resources, not on government regulation.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

It works the same way in the US too; if I didn't have healthcare, dental, vision, and life insurances, a 401(k) plan, etc., I'd expect more hard cash too. Same goes for any lack of sick or vacation time. My various insurances limit what doctors / providers I can go to, how often I can go, if I need referals or not.

I can see how this setup would be useful for getting started; save the money you do make, since your basic needs are met. Once you save more, you can move on to better things.

I wasn't commenting on Ohio Arts or any other Chinese company; I don't know how good (or bad) they are to their employees. But this particular company seems to treat their employees better than others, so seems to be stepping in the right direction.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

It works the same way in the US too; if I didn't have healthcare, dental, vision, and life insurances, a 401(k) plan, etc., I'd expect more hard cash too. Same goes for any lack of sick or vacation time. My various insurances limit what doctors / providers I can go to, how often I can go, if I need referrals or not.

Yep. That's exactly right. Which is the primary complaint against employer-sponsored health care and pensions.

I can see how this setup would be useful for getting started; save the money you do make, since your basic needs are met. Once you save more, you can move on to better things.

Yep- that's exactly right. Assuming of course, you're able to save the money you do make- and aren't just spending it at the company store with inflated prices.

I wasn't commenting on Ohio Arts or any other Chinese company; I don't know how good (or bad) they are to their employees. But this particular company seems to treat their employees better than others, so seems to be stepping in the right direction.

And I certainly agree with you on that- there are other Chinese manufacturing houses that treat their people far worse!

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Can you afford to take a 20% hit to your customer base? Few companies can- that's the magic number that Wal*Mart used to use to encourage manufacturers to move overseas to begin with- it was either lower their wholesale prices or lose 20% of their business as their items were yanked from Wal*Mart's shelves.

How's your plan going so far? Is this a phased approach, or are you going to go cold turkey?

I'd like to see us go cold turkey- unilaterally exit the WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA, and replace them with FAIR TRADE agreements.

Hey, close yourselves off, see how much the rest of us miss you. Oh, could you unwind your colonial empire while you're at it? You know, the military bases, the gun boats, the 1/2 million enforcers you have posted around the world. Thanks.

That is the entire point. With one world standard in labor and environment, there would no longer be a need for all of that crap.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Adambomb]

that was most definitely not the case in terms of the older union employees. They may KNOW the right way to do things but they certainly did not implement it. I ran a urethane injector that no one in the union was willing to run due to the effort involved, and saw the amount of value involved in their machining and cnc programming.

Of course, far be it from pro-union people to listen to the fact that THIS WAS PERSONAL EXPERIENCE AND SITTING ON ASS DOING _NOTHING_ IS NOT THE RIGHT WAY TO DO ANYTHING (unless your goal is to do nothing).

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[plague3106]

Yep- that's exactly right. Assuming of course, you're able to save the money you do make- and aren't just spending it at the company store with inflated prices.

There's nothing in the article to suggest that this company is inflating prices though. In fact, the article seems to indicate that the company subsidizes food, meaning the food the company sells is cheaper than could be gotten at a non-company market. I also imagine that since the company is a HUGE buyer of food, economics of scale would also seem to indicate that it can buy more food cheaper than if the individual went to the market. I imagine also that the price of rice in China is already fairly low, since they grow so much of it there.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm inclinded to believe the artcile which claims the company is making life better for the Chinese.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Adambomb]

I should clarify that as well, its not a question of ANTI or PRO union. I'm simply anti-laziness, anti-bigotry, and anti-asshole.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm inclined to believe the article which claims the company is making life better for the Chinese.

I believe it too- but that's kind of like saying Castro was better for the average Cuban than Batista- when you're all the way down there's no place to go but up.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[o2sd]

Can you afford to take a 20% hit to your customer base?

Yes, but my company is unusual. Besides which, we don't really do much business with the US.

Few companies can-

True, however some companies, upon losing a large customer have sought out other markets for their products, or changed their business model. Others, of course, have gone bankrupt. But isn't that a just reward for those so lazy that they rely on the American consumer to keep their business afloat?

On the flip side of that coin, can you afford to pay 20-50% more for your consumer goods? According to the US census bureau: In 2005, 37.0 million people were in poverty. I guess your plan involves re-employing those people in all of the jobs that went overseas when manufacturers outsourced?

I'd like to see us go cold turkey- unilaterally exit the WTO, NAFTA and CAFTA, and replace them with FAIR TRADE agreements.

But that would mean that the US doesn't get to screw third world countries with one-sided trading agreements. I love your idealism, but really, do you think that the US rich and powerful are going to give up their free ride just like that? Do you think the US consumer is going to give up the purchasing power of the US dollar without complaint?

That is the entire point. With one world standard in labor and environment, there would no longer be a need for all of that crap.

Yes, but that is NEVER going to happen, so it is rather pointless planning for, or thinking about a world in which it does. The strong prey upon the weak, they can't help themselves, it's in the DNA. Universal equality will never be achieved, because it would take an enormous authoritarian apparatus to enforce it.

Misguided idealism is what gives Socialism a bad name.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[macro187]

Ah, the beauty of globalism and free trade... Slightly lower prices and much higher profits at the expense of hungry people and our world. What progress humanity is making!

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps that insurgents implies jurisdiction, so those 'insurgents' aren't. They are the resistance.

What the hell is going on?

It's been 15 minutes since you last successfully posted a comment

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

On the flip side of that coin, can you afford to pay 20-50% more for your consumer goods? According to the US census bureau: In 2005, 37.0 million people were in poverty. I guess your plan involves re-employing those people in all of the jobs that went overseas when manufacturers outsourced?

Yes- that's the entire point. The reason these people are in poverty is because the traditional "high paying American manufacturing jobs" simply aren't available.

But that would mean that the US doesn't get to screw third world countries with one-sided trading agreements.

Also good. You don't really think those cheap prices ACTUALLY made it to the consumer, did you? Of course not- they ended up as profit for the top .1% of Americans- who now earn as much as the bottom 50% combined.

I love your idealism, but really, do you think that the US rich and powerful are going to give up their free ride just like that?

Of course not. First we have to take back our democracy!

Do you think the US consumer is going to give up the purchasing power of the US dollar without complaint?

The US Dollar has been losing purchasing power for 40 years now. Like I said, the cheap prices don't make it to the consumer level, not really- Wal*Mart's margin is often 100-200%, and other "discount stores" are similar or worse.

Yes, but that is NEVER going to happen, so it is rather pointless planning for, or thinking about a world in which it does. The strong prey upon the weak, they can't help themselves, it's in the DNA. Universal equality will never be achieved, because it would take an enormous authoritarian apparatus to enforce it.

So let's build an enormous authoritarian apparatus. If that's what it takes, it's worth it.

Misguided idealism is what gives Socialism a bad name.

Oh, and I thought it was the con artists who gave socialism a bad name.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[o2sd]

Also good. You don't really think those cheap prices ACTUALLY made it to the consumer, did you? Of course not- they ended up as profit for the top .1% of Americans- who now earn as much as the bottom 50% combined.

No, I don't think they did, I KNOW they did. Almost every consumer item I buy has come down (in real terms, adjusted for inflation) by a factor of 5-10, from the change in the terms of trade, due entirely to outsourcing labour intensive industries to countries with a cheap labour pool.

Of course not. First we have to take back our democracy!

The rich and powerful are in the arms business as well, so I don't think you will succeed, but by all means, best of luck!

The US Dollar has been losing purchasing power for 40 years now.
No, the US Dollar has been losing it's value for 40 years, not it's purchasing power. The two are completely different things. The reason the US Dollar has been losing it's value is because it has been mortgaged for future generations to pay off through the issuing of government debt. It's purchasing power is maintained by your military, by enforcing/maintaining the terms of trade. Modern economies need oil, and (almost) all oil is sold in US$, along with many other commodities that are no longer produced in the US. It's really quite complex, and whole books have been written on how this works, perhaps you could read one?

Like I said, the cheap prices don't make it to the consumer level, not really- Wal*Mart's margin is often 100-200%, and other "discount stores" are similar or worse.

Retails margins are always 100-200%, regardless of the country that the product is manufactured in. 100% markup on $1 (made in china) is $2, on $10 (made in usa) it is $20. Perhaps if you understood the first thing about economics or business, it would assist you in your quest to destroy those who profit from it.

So let's build an enormous authoritarian apparatus. If that's what it takes, it's worth it.

Once that apparatus was complete, it would be taken over by the strong, and used to control and exploit the weak. You might remember a similar occurrence in the 20th century, it happened in a place called Russia.

Oh, and I thought it was the con artists who gave socialism a bad name.

You thought wrong. Where ever socialism has succeeded in the world was because it was pragmatic, not idealistic.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

No, I don't think they did, I KNOW they did. Almost every consumer item I buy has come down (in real terms, adjusted for inflation) by a factor of 5-10, from the change in the terms of trade, due entirely to outsourcing labour intensive industries to countries with a cheap labour pool.

Actually, that proves it- since the change in cost of manufacturing is actually a factor of 100-1000, not 5-10. (Ohio Arts is a good example of this- their wages went from $19/hr with benefits to .24/hr with no benefits). Like I said, the REAL cost reductions go straight to the bottom line, NOT to consumers.

The rich and powerful are in the arms business as well, so I don't think you will succeed, but by all means, best of luck!

Soap Box first. Ballot box next. Ammo box last. We're still in the Soap Box stage, and if enough people realize they've been taken for a ride, we'll never need the Ammo box.

No, the US Dollar has been losing it's value for 40 years, not it's purchasing power. The two are completely different things. The reason the US Dollar has been losing it's value is because it has been mortgaged for future generations to pay off through the issuing of government debt. It's purchasing power is maintained by your military, by enforcing/maintaining the terms of trade. Modern economies need oil, and (almost) all oil is sold in US$, along with many other commodities that are no longer produced in the US. It's really quite complex, and whole books have been written on how this works, perhaps you could read one?

The current terms of trade mean that Americans earn less money every year, in relation to inflation. How is that maintaining the purchasing power? Plus, oil need not come out of the ground anymore, so that analysis is rather outdated. Add to that the fact that if those commodities WERE produced in the United States, Americans would have good paying jobs again, the entire "free trade" model fails to be worth a single American life, let alone sending the military around the world on messes like Iraq.

Retails margins are always 100-200%, regardless of the country that the product is manufactured in.

Bullshit. Back in the 1980s, I worked retail as my first job, and EVERYTHING in the store assumed a 10% margin. If we were able to do that then, we should be able to do that now.

100% markup on $1 (made in china) is $2, on $10 (made in usa) it is $20. Perhaps if you understood the first thing about economics or business, it would assist you in your quest to destroy those who profit from it.

And perhaps if you knew anything about history, you'd know that what is "economics or business" is nothing more than fungible religion, not science.

You thought wrong. Where ever socialism has succeeded in the world was because it was pragmatic, not idealistic.

Socialism has never succeeded- even in China.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[o2sd]

Actually, that proves it- since the change in cost of manufacturing is actually a factor of 100-1000, not 5-10. (Ohio Arts is a good example of this- their wages went from $19/hr with benefits to .24/hr with no benefits). Like I said, the REAL cost reductions go straight to the bottom line, NOT to consumers.

So the cost of labour is the entire cost of manufacturing is it? No capital costs, no raw materials costs, no transport costs?

The current terms of trade mean that Americans earn less money every year, in relation to inflation.

If the cost of goods purchased is decreasing, how can there be inflation?

Plus, oil need not come out of the ground anymore, so that analysis is rather outdated.

Really!!! You have a magic process for producing oil above ground for $5 a barrel!!!!???? Please tell me what it is, I'm all ears.

Add to that the fact that if those commodities WERE produced in the United States, Americans would have good paying jobs again

Yes, but who would buy your overpriced commodities? Oh, that's right, you won't be trading with other parts of the world, so you are just going to take the increase in the cost of goods on the chin, but that's alright because you have 'good paying jobs' to pay for it.

Bullshit. Back in the 1980s, I worked retail as my first job, and EVERYTHING in the store assumed a 10% margin. If we were able to do that then, we should be able to do that now.

Are you talking about a profit margin or markup on the cost of goods? Walmart has 100-200% markup, but a 1-2% profit margin. Sorry, when you said 100-200% margin, I assumed you were talking about the markup, because Walmart certainly does not have a 100-200% profit margin, but they certainly do have a 100-200% markup.

So perhaps if I knew what you were talking about, we could debate this point further.

And perhaps if you knew anything about history, you'd know that what is "economics or business" is nothing more than fungible religion, not science.

It is neither a religion nor a science. Economics is a collection of speculative theories (an Art, if you will), and business is an evolving methodology (an intellectual technology).

Socialism has never succeeded- even in China.

Socialism has succeeded at times in Sweden, Norway, Britain,Australia and even Canada. Not raving-foam-at-the-mouth socialism, but quiet pragmatic socialism that most Americans don't quite seem to be able to comprehend.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

So the cost of labour is the entire cost of manufacturing is it? No capital costs, no raw materials costs, no transport costs?

Capital costs, raw materials cost, and transport costs are often highly subsidized by the country of origin in an effort to attract new manufacturing. Countries that don't, get bypassed in the search for cheap labor.

If the cost of goods purchased is decreasing, how can there be inflation?

It isn't. It's a trick- they merely sell you smaller amounts.

Really!!! You have a magic process for producing oil above ground for $5 a barrel!!!!???? Please tell me what it is, I'm all ears.

This was front page slashdot just a couple of days ago- but I like my writeup at technocrat better. E-coli and yard waste- to the tune of 3% of America's land mass (swampland mainly) being used to create feedstock for the bacteria refineries.

Yes, but who would buy your overpriced commodities? Oh, that's right, you won't be trading with other parts of the world, so you are just going to take the increase in the cost of goods on the chin, but that's alright because you have 'good paying jobs' to pay for it.

Exactly. The people who really need to take it on the chin is the C-level executives- their lifestyle can't continue to be supported. And we need to return to anything over a 10% profit margin being called profiteering and punished by the FTC, like it used to be.

Are you talking about a profit margin or markup on the cost of goods? Walmart has 100-200% markup, but a 1-2% profit margin. Sorry, when you said 100-200% margin, I assumed you were talking about the markup, because Walmart certainly does not have a 100-200% profit margin, but they certainly do have a 100-200% markup.

Walmart would have a 200% profit margin if their executives were earning the same salary as the lowest associate. I consider executive salaries as a part of profit.

It is neither a religion nor a science. Economics is a collection of speculative theories (an Art, if you will), and business is an evolving methodology (an intellectual technology).

Art is religion. A collection of beliefs with no more fact behind them than any other myth. Same with methodologies.

Socialism has succeeded at times in Sweden, Norway, Britain,Australia and even Canada. Not raving-foam-at-the-mouth socialism, but quiet pragmatic socialism that most Americans don't quite seem to be able to comprehend.

Those aren't socialism- they're feudalism.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[o2sd]

Capital costs, raw materials cost, and transport costs are often highly subsidized by the country of origin in an effort to attract new manufacturing.

Pffff.

It isn't. It's a trick- they merely sell you smaller amounts.

Pffff.

This was front page slashdot just a couple of days ago- but I like my writeup at technocrat better. E-coli and yard waste- to the tune of 3% of America's land mass (swampland mainly) being used to create feedstock for the bacteria refineries.

Pffff.

Walmart would have a 200% profit margin if their executives were earning the same salary as the lowest associate. I consider executive salaries as a part of profit.

Art is religion. A collection of beliefs with no more fact behind them than any other myth. Same with methodologies.

Pffff.

Those aren't socialism- they're feudalism.

Pffffffffffffffffffffffff.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[yndrd1984]

...something of real value- Ithaca Hours, where one hour of a Janitor's time is worth one hour of a farmer's time is worth one hour of a CEO's time.

Right, because we should only pay people for their time, not for their productivity. Effort, education, talent, strength, accuracy, speed, intelligence, trustworthiness, experience, dedication and efficiency should count for nothing.

Usually people get paid more because they do things that are more valuable in some way - more difficult, requiring rarer abilities, or because you have to trust them more. Sometimes things don't work that way, but "an hour is an hour" is way overboard in the other direction.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Right, because we should only pay people for their time, not for their productivity. Effort, education, talent, strength, accuracy, speed, intelligence, trustworthiness, experience, dedication and efficiency should count for nothing.

The rest of those goes to personal satisfaction- to put it in terms my 4-year-old would understand, it's the difference between being a Really Useful Engine and a Very Naughty Engine.

The rewards of all of that rebound upon society as a whole.

Usually people get paid more because they do things that are more valuable in some way - more difficult, requiring rarer abilities, or because you have to trust them more. Sometimes things don't work that way, but "an hour is an hour" is way overboard in the other direction.

In recent years, that has become so incredibly untrue that perhaps we need such a rebound overboard in the other direction. Oh, and BTW, I don't believe in rare abilities. Genetics does not impact education- environment is the predictor of education.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[yndrd1984]

The rewards of all of that rebound upon society as a whole.

I don't want to diminish the immaterial rewards of doing something well, but it seems odd to make sure that better work leads to them but can never lead to material gain. Look at any other field: I do a better job of cleaning and my house is cleaner, meet more women and I get more dates, find a better way to build muscle and I can stay fit easier. I really don't know why economics should be made an exception to the rule that if you put more into something so that it becomes more productive, you'll get more of the same out of it.

In recent years, that has become so incredibly untrue that perhaps we need such a rebound overboard in the other direction.

I really don't see it that way. Doctors still make more than office workers, who make more than blue collar people. People with hourly wages get overtime, and seniority still counts in a lot of places. The unusual people who are over- or under-rewarded by our economy are a big issue and get a lot of attention, but 80% of people still earn in rough proportion to what they produce.

Oh, and BTW, I don't believe in rare abilities. Genetics does not impact education- environment is the predictor of education.

First off, as an extreme example, not many men can donate eggs to fertility clinics. Plus, education isn't the only thing that affects how much value a person can produce.

Re:And unlike so many other Chinese Manufacturers

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I don't want to diminish the immaterial rewards of doing something well, but it seems odd to make sure that better work leads to them but can never lead to material gain. Look at any other field: I do a better job of cleaning and my house is cleaner, meet more women and I get more dates, find a better way to build muscle and I can stay fit easier. I really don't know why economics should be made an exception to the rule that if you put more into something so that it becomes more productive, you'll get more of the same out of it.

An interesting question from a capitalist, since that's the entire point of capitalism. Those who put the effort in, the workers, get the minimum wage possible to assure retention, while those who put no effort in, the stockholders, reap the rewards of profit. Isn't that what absolutely every form of economics since feudalism has been about, the transfer of the wealth from the productive to the unproductive?

I really don't see it that way. Doctors still make more than office workers, who make more than blue collar people.

Actually, in recent years, no they don't. The insurance companies and HMOs have a tendency to steal the profit from doctors- and many office workers make a LOT less than a blue collar union employee, when you figure in the overtime.

People with hourly wages get overtime, and seniority still counts in a lot of places.

Hourly wages do get overtime, but seniority is largely looked down upon, with many 45-50 year olds being handed "early retirement" to get rid of them and push them out of the workforce. That's why senior citizens are the third largest employment group of fast food restaurants.

The unusual people who are over- or under-rewarded by our economy are a big issue and get a lot of attention, but 80% of people still earn in rough proportion to what they produce.

No, actually not. They earn a small fraction compared to what they produce- the rest is taken by C-level executives and stockholders. Otherwise the company wouldn't be able to stay in business in today's short-term profit stock world.

First off, as an extreme example, not many men can donate eggs to fertility clinics. Plus, education isn't the only thing that affects how much value a person can produce.

That's funny- I just had somebody in another discussion on the trade imbalance claiming we can educate our way out of this mess (I only halfway agreed with him- right before pointing out that a Bachelor's degree at any 4-year US school now will cost you around $40,000 in tuition and books; where an India Institute of Technology graduate can be had for $4000 and will do the exact same job).

And

[Anonymous Coward]

biggest polluter.

Worker conditions

[ktappe]

Note the interviewee who says that while the living conditions have improved since the BBC publicity last year (the "iPod slaves" story), he says the changes are "incomplete" and seemed afraid to go into more detail or give his full name. I really do wish that buying electronics wouldn't mean supporting companies whose workers have to live in slum conditions. But I really don't know what to do short of writing probably useless letters to Steve Jobs and Michael Dell.

Re:Worker conditions

[middlemen]

I really do wish that buying electronics wouldn't mean supporting companies whose workers have to live in slum conditions.

Ok, humanitarian perspective aside. Those workers are now able to provide a their families 2 square meals a day. If companies stop using them, then they go hungry, continue living in slums and you pay more for your beloved techno-gadgets. Right now they are better off than they were earlier and you are happier since you can have the privilege of using an iPod and listening to your choice of music on the go. See win-win scenario...

Re:Worker conditions

[maillemaker]

Something to consider here is that in many cases though the job conditions and pay looks terrible to /you/, the actual workers love it compared to what they had.

This is not to say that we nor they should be satisfied with their present lot in life, but rather to say that things are improving. Their economy is primitive by modern standards. It will grow, rapidly, and working conditions will improve - just like they did in our country.

The answer to helping these people advance is not to stop buying their products, which puts them right back where they were - with nothing. The answer is to continue to buy their products, which empowers them and gives them options.

Re:Worker conditions

[juuri]

Well he did say conditons have improved. This may not mean much to us, but it was already well known that foxconn had some of the best factory conditions in the entire industry over there. Do these conditions really meet what we would consider ideal? No, but an improvement is an improvement. I would submit that most Americans have no idea how bad factory work is, even without our own country. If you want to be truly disgusted by the treatment of workers and the quality of their environment take yourself to the nearest chicken factory or any other "plant" with is obviously skirting the edges of legality.

China moves slow traditionally but as they develop a real middle class, the lower class conditions will improve becaue of increased internal spending and more attitudes similiar to those in more developed nations.

Re:Worker conditions

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Easy- start buying the products that are $5000 instead of $500....that is, the ones that you can verify were made in the USA out of components created from raw materials in the USA.

Re:Worker conditions

[ThosLives]

Hrm. There's also the opposite method which in theory could work but never will on paper:

You can start accepting less payment for everything you do, and make sure you can still get by. This will lower the cost of all the goods based on your efforts, so that will make US goods more competitive in the world market. Cool!

Oh, wait, that doesn't work like that, does it...why don't other people lower their prices if I lower mine again?

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, you mean empowers their government.

That's the real reason why they and every 3rd world country is where it is. China is one of the oldest, largest countries in existence and they have lots of natural resources, why do you think they are still where they are?

Re:Worker conditions

[sethstorm]

One more case proving that nothing justifies slave labor, not even the misguided folks replying to your thread stating such.

Re:Worker conditions

[onkelonkel]

I remember my history teacher telling us about working conditions during industrial revolution times in England. Workers (some of them children as young as 6 years old) toiled from sunup to sundown six days a week in dirty noisy horribly dangerous factories for the lowest possible wages.

The point that stuck with me was that hordes of people flocked from the farms to the cities, because horrible as it may have seemed to us, it was still _better_ than the conditions they left behind. On the farms you toiled (men, women and children) from sunup to sundown 7 days a week. Conditions were no less dangerous; farm machines could kill you just as dead as machines in a factory. And on the farm if it didn't rain at the right time, or rained too much, or the bugs came your crop was wiped out and you starved. At least in the mills, as long as you could work you knew you were not going to starve. While "not starving to death" is a pretty minimum standard of living, it sure beats "maybe starving to death"

Re:Worker conditions

[The-Bus]

The answer to helping these people advance is not to stop buying their products, which puts them right back where they were - with nothing. The answer is to continue to buy their products, which empowers them and gives them options. You're partly right. Not buying the product certainly won't help that worker, unless you replace the purchase of that product with something that is fair to its workers. The problem is, I don't know who that company is, in electronics at least.

One example I can think of is Blackspot Shoes, a "shoe brand" created by the equally loony and insightful AdBusters magazine. At $78/pair, they're more expensive than the Converse All-Stars they copy (which used to be made in the USA).

I'm not in the market for shoes, but it's nice to know.

Re:Worker conditions

[keithjr]

The answer to helping these people advance is not to stop buying their products, which puts them right back where they were - with nothing. The answer is to continue to buy their products, which empowers them and gives them options.

Unfortunately I won't be able to believe this until I see a more concerted effort on the part of the Chinese labor communities to fight for better living and working conditions. The way things became better for workers in the US was when the prospect of strikes cajoled management into finally acknowledging workers rights. Buying their products just puts more and more money into the ever-growing Chinese plutocracy, and encourages them to maintain the status quo. International pressure would be far more effective.

According to the article, the company's revenue has been growing 50% every year for 10 years. Has the working environment improved proportionally?

Re:Worker conditions

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I'm not sure- I tried it while I was unemployed for 2 years in the early part of the decade- for my customers, the cost of setting up their computers and LANs and broadband connections dropped to half what the professionals charged. Funny though, I couldn't afford housing or food on that....

Re:Worker conditions

[sholden]

It was all flowers and joy for workers back in the early factories (and mines) of England when that whole industrial revolution thing got off the ground...

Or maybe it transitions from shitty lives working in the fields, to shitty (but less so) lives working in factories, and then when the people actually get enough income to care about such things the conditions start improving - due to workers out numbering factory owners...

You can try and skip all that I guess, but that last great leap forward didn't turn out so well.

Those factory workers are not usually slaves, they can walk away and return to subsistence farming, but that sucks even more hence they don't. Little steps, great leaps don't work...

Re:Worker conditions

[leoc]

And how much does anyone, including the Apple reps who went to inspect the place, really see? They admit at the beginning of the article that many parts of the plant are off-limits and protected by a 1000 member strong security force. For a company headed by a man who says he idolizes Genghis Khan you would have expected a little more research into the ethical practices of the company. Mind you, since this is an article in the Wall Street Journal, I am not surprised they spent more time talking about the guys wealth and his company's income than they did investigating the working conditions or environmental practices in his factories.

Re:Worker conditions

[an.echte.trilingue]

But I really don't know what to do short of writing probably useless letters to Steve Jobs and Michael Dell.

This is going to sound overly simplistic, but why don't you stop buying consumer electronics if it really bothers you? I mean, nobody needs an iPod or a PC at home...

Re:Worker conditions

[iamacat]

Or you could consider that the US company could easily double their salary, reduce work week to, say, 60 hours and fix the most grievous safety hazards - all at the cost of cutting compensation of top executives by half. Just like we are prosecuting ordinary citizens for patronizing child prostitutes in Thailand, we should start going after companies (and their CEOs) that break US labor laws abroad. 5-7 bucks minimum wage per hour is not to expensive for a company, will help 3rd world countries stand up on their feet rather than being cheap slaves and will give US workers at least a slight chance to compete for jobs.

Re:Worker conditions

[xtracto]

Yeah, I always giggle when I read such kind of post in slashdot referring to the differences in pays of US compared to any other country... the article is actually quite good (yes, I read it /all/, until the paragraph when he says that he is looking for young successor before he gets too old to have good judgement), and the man and factory policies also seem quite nice.

My girlfriend works as a manufacturing Warehouse Manager for an international company in Mexico, she has a Master in Manufacturing and her pay is something like US $1,000 a month. She tells me about the conditions in the factory and the amounts workers get pay. To be payed US $300 a month for 6 day-8 hours/day work would seem ortrageous here in the UK, but for the living expenses in Mexico it is quite good. It might be wise to see comparisons such as the Big Mac Index if you want to know how good or bad you would live with certain salary.

Re:Worker conditions

[maillemaker]

>Unfortunately I won't be able to believe this until I see a more concerted effort on the part of the Chinese
>labor communities to fight for better living and working conditions.

It is theirs for the taking, just as it was for us.

>The way things became better for workers in the
>US was when the prospect of strikes cajoled management into finally acknowledging workers rights. Buying their
>products just puts more and more money into the ever-growing Chinese plutocracy, and encourages them to maintain
>the status quo. International pressure would be far more effective.

Did we require international pressure for our economy to grow and our workforce to demand ever-better standards of living? No. Neither will theirs.

Re:Worker conditions

[maillemaker]

>Uh, you mean empowers their government.

No, I meant it empowers the workers. They now have wages where before they had less or none. This allows them to build wealth and improve their lot in life.

>That's the real reason why they and every 3rd world country is where it is. China is one of the oldest,
>largest countries in existence and they have lots of natural resources, why do you think they are still where they are?

That depends, where do you think they "are"? The way I see it, every day they are outstripping where they were the day before. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Re:Worker conditions

[Sunburnt]

Mind you, since this is an article in the Wall Street Journal, I am not surprised they spent more time talking about the guys wealth and his company's income than they did investigating the working conditions or environmental practices in his factories.

At least the WSJ hasn't been fully "Rupertized" yet. At that point, they'll probably spend the entirety of these articles asserting that Chinese entrepeneurs' successes are proof that we should all go back to living in company towns, where the evil libruhls won't be able to poison our minds with their propaganda.

Re:Worker conditions

[elrous0]

Hey, just because your plant is better than a concentration camp, that doesn't make you a humanitarian for exploiting jewish slave labor. These major corporations know damn well that they're exploiting these people--that's why they outsource to China. It's not like they're going there and offering Western-style pay and working conditions.

Re:Worker conditions

[keithjr]

Our government was, even back then, much less likely to make an example of a striking workforce. The Chinese government has proven that it is fully willing to use violence against a peaceful protest. In this day and age, workers shouldn't be forced to lay down their lives in order to achieve basic human rights. I'm afraid I just don't have enough faith in China's patience to say "leave it to them to solve the problem."

Re:Worker conditions

[IBBoard]

The only problem with mills (especially cotton mills) was that while it beat "maybe starving to death" it did add "possibly getting trapped and either killed or losing a limb". Especially if you were one of the young children who were young enough to get between the machines (while they were still running) and clear up the bits of cotton that could otherwise clog the machine.

If anyone lives in the UK then Quarry Bank Mill is a good place to go - they even still run one of the machines at times so you get get the starts of an impression of how deaf they must have ended up by the end of the day!

Re:Worker conditions

[maillemaker]

Well, all I can say is I'm a big proponent of "people get the government they deserve".

Sometimes you have to be willing to lay down your life to achieve basic human rights.

But I think things will improve for them even without such drastic measures. So it has gone with every developing nation that has embraced economic growth.

Re:Worker conditions

[Sunburnt]

Our government was, even back then, much less likely to make an example of a striking workforce.

Come again? That's not exactly right.

Re:Worker conditions

[maillemaker]

>Hey, just because your plant is better than a concentration camp, that doesn't make you a humanitarian for
>exploiting jewish slave labor. These major corporations know damn well that they're exploiting these
>people--that's why they outsource to China. It's not like they're going there and offering
>Western-style pay and working conditions.

Of course not - because the locals don't demand such compensation, and even if they did, it could be terribly disruptive to the local economy anyway.

A buddy of mine just got back from Iraq. He was in charge of hiring local Iraqis to clean the bathrooms. Originally they paid the sanitation staff $5/hour. They had to scale their pay back. Why? Because the local merchants discovered that the Iraqis working on base made enough money to afford more expensive goods, so they raised their prices. But the effect was that things were now much worse for all the Iraqis who were not working on base.

Second of all, it isn't exploitation if it is a willing business arrangement by both the employer and the employee. In this case, it's a win-win situation - the employer it getting a less expensive labor force, and the laborers are getting better wages and working conditions than what was available previously.

Re:Worker conditions

[Colin Smith]

Or you could consider that the US company could easily double their salary, reduce work week to, say, 60 hours and fix the most grievous safety hazards And they'd be unemployed in less than a year.

Re:Worker conditions

[gstoddart]

Ok, humanitarian perspective aside. Those workers are now able to provide a their families 2 square meals a day. If companies stop using them, then they go hungry, continue living in slums and you pay more for your beloved techno-gadgets.

If they were actually all getting better standards of living, we wouldn't be objecting on humanitarian grounds. Yes, they get a better standard of living, we get products. Everyone wins. The fact that they do it for a fraction of what it would cost here, I guess one lives with because it's an actual opportunity for them and they get to move up the economic ladder. Such things are relative to where you live.

But, when one hears stories about what is outright slavery, workers not getting paid at all, and all of that stuff, then one tends to be a little more worried about how ethical these products are. There are regular stories about appalling things happening in Chinese factories, as well as a lot of shady dealings from sub-sub contractors who nobody seems to be accounting for (like, lead in kids toys for instance).

Personally, I would like a little more assurance that the products I'm buying which are made in China actually have a little fairer labour practice than the worst case we tend to hear about. And, I don't think it's too unrealistic to basically tell the companies using these manufacturers that they really need to be sure of such things. I don't begrudge the workers a chance to make a living -- but, I do expect the parent companies to do more than the most superficial due-diligence to Do The Right Thing.

This is an unfortunate side effect of outsourcing (well, one of many) -- you really have no assurances that the people making the stuff you buy aren't being subject to really awful conditions.

Cheers

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it polite to wake someone from a beautiful dream?

Re:Worker conditions

[servognome]

Or you could consider that the US company could easily double their salary, reduce work week to, say, 60 hours and fix the most grievous safety hazards - all at the cost of cutting compensation of top executives by half.

Having worked with companies in China, I can say it's not that easy. Because labor costs are low, companies in asia simply throw people to solve problems rather than automating. They easily employ 10x the number of people to accomplish the same job. What would happen with a western style system is 1 person would have US style benefits running machines, and the other 9 would be unemployed.

Re:Worker conditions

[TheRaven64]

The Chinese government has proven that it is fully willing to use violence against a peaceful protest. That's okay. They've covered it up so successfully that no one who might start a labour movement in China has heard of it.

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, humanitarian perspective aside. Those workers are now able to provide a their families 2 square meals a day. If companies stop using them, then they go hungry, continue living in slums and you pay more for your beloved techno-gadgets. Right now they are better off than they were earlier and you are happier since you can have the privilege of using an iPod and listening to your choice of music on the go. See win-win scenario...

Indeed, let them eat cake...

Re:Worker conditions

[couchslug]

Compare their lot to that of US workers in the 1920s and 1930s, and suddenly their compensation looks a lot better.

Re:Worker conditions

[E 99]

Or you could consider that the US company could easily double their salary, reduce work week to, say, 60 hours and fix the most grievous safety hazards - all at the cost of cutting compensation of top executives by half. Just like we are prosecuting ordinary citizens for patronizing child prostitutes in Thailand, we should start going after companies (and their CEOs) that break US labor laws abroad. 5-7 bucks minimum wage per hour is not to expensive for a company, will help 3rd world countries stand up on their feet rather than being cheap slaves and will give US workers at least a slight chance to compete for jobs.

Have you actually looked at any of these companies' balance sheets or do you just figure, "companies are rich they can afford anything?" If we actually passed laws requiring US based companies to pay 5-7 dollars to workers anywhere in the world, their only option would be to leave the US altogether. Many are doing so already, as there are more and more business-friendly places in the world -- places who appreciate business and want to attract companies rather than wanting to penalize them for existing. If socialist policies eventually drive the multinationals out of the US, it will be the end of our tenure as an economic and political superpower, and depending on who takes our place, the world will probably get a whole lot uglier.

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because US companies are all about halving the pay of their top executives...

Get some perspective.

Re:Worker conditions

[vidarh]

The US labor movement was one of the most militant in the world for decades, because the US government frequently murdered strikers.

US union members DIED by the dozen for our 8 hour working days.

In fact, May 1 as an international day for international labor demonstrations was a direct result of the US labor movements demonstrations for 8 hour working days and the resulting bloodshed.

I find it sad that so few Americans actually know anything about how the US used to be at the forefront of the fights for workers rights, and the large number of lives lost in fighting your government and industry to get the protections you have now. It is one of the things you truly have to be proud of, as it had a significant impact on labor movements worldwide and so directly affected workers rights throughout the industrialized world.

Re:Worker conditions

[iamacat]

If we actually passed laws requiring US based companies to pay 5-7 dollars to workers anywhere in the world, their only option would be to leave the US altogether.

Fine, as long as:

a) The company agrees to follow all Chinese laws and we agree to promptly extradite any executives residing in US to stand trial for any violations. I hear death penalty is common for stuff like environmental accidents and allowing employees to access information about Tinamenn square events through corporate intranet gets you sent to a re-education camp for a few years. Are you actually suggesting that a company should be allowed to avoid laws of ALL countries by shifting people and corporate registrations around?

and

b) The company goods are charged a non-punitive duty to compensate for the loss of tax income compared to a US company paying wages to american workers.

Re:Worker conditions

[iamacat]

Why? I don't see american overpaid corporate management getting the boot. Surely improving conditions of someone currently working 16h/day in a sweatshop will do more good to product quality than increasing a rich guy's net worth from 4 to 8 billion.

Re:Worker conditions

[alienw]

What sort of ethical breaches could there possibly be? Sounds like the workers are paid in actual currency, they are free to leave, they are being paid an above-average wage, and they can find alternate employment. What exactly is the problem here?

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell, I'll bite. Substitute the subject of your paragraph with slaves in America, mid-1800s. Substitute techno-gadgets with tobacco, cotton, other crops. You get pro-slavery propaganda from the American Civil War era. I remember distinctly a great drawing of a poor man, sick and dying in a gutter on one side of the frame, and on the other side, the same sickly man in bed, with his white mistress and master tenderly caring to his every need. Just as I don't believe that happened, I seriously doubt these people are going home feeling so successful because, hey, now they're only mostly starving and living in not-so-bad slums. Surviving is not thriving.

Re:Worker conditions

[vidarh]

I'm all for buying from companies in developing countries. However that does not remove the very valid concern of how they are treating their employees.

Consider this: You are right that stopping to use them would be bad for the workers too. However, as a consumer spending lots of money with these companies you have the choice to learn about which of these companies treat their customers best and take that into account when picking products. You also have the choice of threatening companies using the worst offenders with boycotts unless they improve conditions.

You and I can help these people by making informed choices and supporting those companies that are willing to treat their workers better.

In our own countries we can achieve that by voting for politicians that put in place laws to prevent predatory employers, but voting with our wallets often works better, and has the advantage that it works worldwide.

Frankly, I'd happily pay a bit more for my electronic goods if I knew they came from manufacturers that treated their workers better.

Re:Worker conditions

[ghoul]

Rather than sending the US executives to reeducation camp how about bringing them up in a culture of shame so that when their company screws up they take personal responsibility and kill themselves. Given that execs are paid 100s of millions of dollars they should be willing to bet their life on it. Maybe then they will provide their employees with the resources to do their jobs

Re:Worker conditions

[CodeBuster]

They had to scale their pay back. Why? Because the local merchants discovered that the Iraqis working on base made enough money to afford more expensive goods, so they raised their prices. But the effect was that things were now much worse for all the Iraqis who were not working on base.

A good real world example of what economists call the price/wage spiral.

Re:Worker conditions

[HungWeiLo]

The term "Made in U.S.A." is sometimes a highly dubious one in the fashion industry. It often means slave labor of illegal Chinese immigrants in the Chinatown sweatshops of L.A. or New York. Or oftentimes in Saipan or Guam, which makes it technically still American soil.

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could consider that the US company could easily double their salary, reduce work week to, say, 60 hours and fix the most grievous safety hazards - all at the cost of cutting compensation of top executives by half. Just like we are prosecuting ordinary citizens for patronizing child prostitutes in Thailand, we should start going after companies (and their CEOs) that break US labor laws abroad. 5-7 bucks minimum wage per hour is not to expensive for a company, will help 3rd world countries stand up on their feet rather than being cheap slaves and will give US workers at least a slight chance to compete for jobs.

I don't think you understand. Not everyone can be rich, that is just the way capitalism works. The standard of living enjoyed in the US can only exist because there are billions living in poverty elsewhere in the world to support it. The standard of living in the US is unsustainable, pure and simple. All empires ultimately crash for this very reason. (The unsustainable standard of living enjoyed by the rich.) It seems people will never learn from history.

A good measure is the amount of garbage a person generates. I am continually amazed that many North American households produce many bags of garbage per week while I might produce one every two weeks. It is a good measure of excessive and unsustainable consumption.

The answer is not to raise the standard of living elsewhere in the world to match ours (which simply is not possible anyway) but is to lower ours to a realistic and sustainable level, but as history has shown this will not happen voluntarily, we'll just ride it out to its inevitable and tragic conclusion, only this time recovery may not be possible.

Go ahead, flame me for stating the truth, as is inevitable on Slashdot.

P.S. To someone who mentioned the poor quality of non-unionised labour: my experience is exactly the opposite, unions foster incompetence and shoddy workmanship and punish efficiency. Also, under communism, unions are not required to supposedly protect the employees from the malignance of the corporation. Understand? I doubt it.

It is time for corporations to assume control of government and stop abdicating their social responsibility to puppet governments, especially in this time of globalisation more so than ever.

Re:Worker conditions

[schmu_20mol]

Easy ...expect to pay the double amount you pay now at least.

Re:Worker conditions

[iamacat]

The standard of living enjoyed in the US can only exist because there are billions living in poverty elsewhere in the world to support it.

For centuries US had little interaction with the rest of the world and enjoyed living standards higher than villages and sweatshops in modern India and China. While people were still living in poverty, I say we can do a bit better with modern technology and experience learned from history.

A good measure is the amount of garbage a person generates. I am continually amazed that many North American households produce many bags of garbage per week while I might produce one every two weeks.

Certainly garbage, by definition, does nothing to raise people's living standards. Perhaps if stores start selling stuff like milk and electronics in customer-provided reusable containers, there will be some extra money available to pay to both American and Chinese workers.

The answer is not to raise the standard of living elsewhere in the world to match ours (which simply is not possible anyway) but is to lower ours to a realistic and sustainable level,

Certainly curbing insane incomes earned by top executives and independently wealthy would be a big step in that direction.

Go ahead, flame me for stating the truth, as is inevitable on Slashdot.

Economics is driven by living, thinking human beings. To say that there is any single "truth" independent on culture and structure of the society is a flame in itself.

Re:Worker conditions

[Anonymous Coward]

Easy- start buying the products that are $5000 instead of $500....that is, the ones that you can verify were made in the USA out of components created from raw materials in the USA.

At which point the foreign-made products start to cost $5000.

Re:Worker conditions

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Which is the cost of worker protections, yes. But on the plus side, if we could get them paid an American's living wage, imagine the market of a BILLION Americans instead of a mere 300 million. That would be a frontier that could support quite a bit of inflation.

Re:Worker conditions

[E 99]

a) The company agrees to follow all Chinese laws and we agree to promptly extradite any executives residing in US to stand trial for any violations. I hear death penalty is common for stuff like environmental accidents and allowing employees to access information about Tinamenn square events through corporate intranet gets you sent to a re-education camp for a few years. Are you actually suggesting that a company should be allowed to avoid laws of ALL countries by shifting people and corporate registrations around?

Of course, companies have to follow the laws of the countries in which they operate. Death penalty for environmental accidents? Hardly. Maybe if they got proof of someone orchestrating a huge network of bribery to allow massive pollution they'd go there -- and rightly so, considering the number of deaths river pollution is causing in that country.

b) The company goods are charged a non-punitive duty to compensate for the loss of tax income compared to a US company paying wages to american workers.

That's not much better. Again a company might as well just sever ties with the US and move their US offices to a friendly place like Dubai, rather than getting taxed by two countries on the same income. There's a cost barrier to making such a move, especially if they're selling to US markets. But if the government ever makes the cost of doing business in America higher than that barrier... well, then the Left will have finally succeeded in freeing America from the evil multinational corporations. Then, after we default on our debt, we could sell Alaska to Russia, and Hawaii to Japan, and Mexico can build a fence to keep out illegal American immigrants looking for work. Good times.

Re:Worker conditions

[nido]

Not everyone can be rich, that is just the way capitalism works. Yes, "capitalism" as we know it is for concentrating wealth in the pockets of people who are already wealthy.

The answer is not to raise the standard of living elsewhere in the world to match ours (which simply is not possible anyway) but is to lower ours to a realistic and sustainable level, The current petroleum-based usage trends are unsustainable, of course. Consider the possibility that Energy became so cheap that it's essentially 'free' - suppose science finally figures out fusion, and every home has its own "Mr. Fusion" that runs off tap water. I have the hope of raising living standards everywhere.

but as history has shown this will not happen voluntarily, we'll just ride it out to its inevitable and tragic conclusion, only this time recovery may not be possible. The housing bubble 'shit' has recently hit the fan, and is starting to spread across the entire world's economy. Bear Stearns had a pair of hedge funds fail in June, subprime mortgage lenders are imploding left and right (117 since late 2006), and now corporate bonds aren't finding buyers at the cheap interest rates they used to get. The HousingPanic blog commemorated this recent turn of events with a video from a noted historical catastrophe.

It is time for corporations to assume control of government and stop abdicating their social responsibility to puppet governments, especially in this time of globalisation more so than ever. I think it's time to dissolve the corporations, and replace them with worker-owned and run cooperatives. Workers working for themselves, imagine that! The corporate class won't like this economic transformation much, but they'll have to get used to living on salaries of less than $10 million/year.

China and Europe should emerge just fine. We in the United States have a great deal of housecleaning to do.

Re:Worker conditions

[iamacat]

Of course, companies have to follow the laws of the countries in which they operate.

Companies can not be put in jail (and shouldn't be as well, as most employees are innocent bystanders). However, corporate executives must agree to uphold either labor laws of the country of their citizenship or alternatively each country in which they do business. In the later case, they should be extradited and imprisoned, caned, tortured, executed and so on according to local law of that country.

Current situation is that rich people are effectively "above the law" of any country in the world because of difficulties with international enforcement.

Again a company might as well just sever ties with the US and move their US offices to a friendly place like Dubai, rather than getting taxed by two countries on the same income. There's a cost barrier to making such a move, especially if they're selling to US markets.

If the duty accurately reflects lost tax income, it will be still cheaper for the company to outsource and sell in US than pay US workers. After all we are not paying 100% tax from our salaries. All this will do is eliminate the incentive for businesses to move out of US into a tax haven. Also, companies selling goods in US are making use of public infrastructure - roads, security, intellectual property law enforcement - subsidized by american companies. It's only fair to impose a duty on estimated cost recovery basis.

Re:Worker conditions

[InakaBoyJoe]

companies in asia simply throw people to solve problems rather than automating

(sarcasm)Umm, right, that's why American manufacturing is so competitive, eh?... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jidoka"

Re:Worker conditions

[Auldclootie]

I live in China. 5-7 bucks per hour here is more than any ordinary lawyer or a surgeon in a hospital would get. Most of the critics don't realize that $100 per month here is decent cash - enough to support an ordinary family - there are still millions of farmers living on less than $400 per year - and they are not dirt poor, they mostly have decent housing, phones, tvs and even net access in many places. Anyone earning 10,000 dollars per year or more is in the penthouse set. Those workers have good jobs and live in good conditions. They would probably count a minimum wage job in the US as a big comedown

Re:Worker conditions

[servognome]

(sarcasm)Umm, right, that's why American manufacturing is so competitive, eh?...

Your link is for Japanese manufacturing which is different than the lower cost Chinese/SE Asian production facilities. Japanese manufacturing is highly automated by virtue of a limited labor pool, and is more similar to the US which is why many US companies have embraced such things as lean manufacturing and other quality/productivity based initiatives.
The competitive advantage of manufacturing in Japan & US is high quality, while in China it's mostly cost... there is a tradeoff and where you produce depends on the needs of the product. That said, the Chinese workforce and factory quality practices are being improved over time which is why more and more complex and quality driven products are moving to China.

Re:Worker conditions

[kripkenstein]

we should start going after companies (and their CEOs) that break US labor laws abroad.

Of course, what were we thinking... naturally US laws should be enforced everywhere in the world, no other country has the right to determine their own.

Go USA!

Re:Worker conditions

[TheLink]

"Consider the possibility that Energy became so cheap that it's essentially 'free' - suppose science finally figures out fusion, and every home has its own "Mr. Fusion" that runs off tap water. I have the hope of raising living standards everywhere."

Even if energy becomes free I think there should be limits on energy consumption/generation put in place. Otherwise the world could end up glowing with the waste heat. ;).

Re:Worker conditions

[iamacat]

I am glad China doesn't yet block slashdot, because you are misinformed about, among other things. labor conditions in your own country. I am attaching one article to get you started. If you need help getting around government firewall, just reply here and I can help you to find/setup a secure proxy that you can use to find out the truth about China and the rest of the world. Even if $50/month is Ok to get by, 15 hour workdays suck big time. It's sad that communist movement introduced 40 hour work weeks and yet they are enforced is US much more than in China.

Apple's iPod production in China falls under scrutiny

Steve Jobs' Think Different campaign celebrated labor leaders like Gandhi, who used strikes as a form of civil protest, and Ceasar Chavez, who organized poor, migrant farm workers. But a British newspaper at the weekend published a rather shocking report about the factories in China that make his company's iPods.

A report in the middlebrow Mail on Sunday entitled "iPod City" features photos and first-hand accounts from inside factories operated by Foxconn, a company contracted by Apple to assemble millions of iPods by hand.

According to the report (paraphrased here by Macworld UK), Foxconn's giant Longhua plant employs 200,000 workers, who work 15-hour days but are paid just $50 a month -- miserable even by China's standards. It claims they work and live in the plant, in dormitories housing 100 people, and outside visitors are forbidden.

The report says another plant that makes Apple's iPod shuffle in Suzhou, Shanghai, employs mostly women, because they are more trustworthy. Another factory is secured by Chinese police officers, the paper said.

Workers at these factories earn more -- about $100 a month -- but are not housed by the company. The paper says rent and living costs eat up about half the worker's salaries.

Re:Worker conditions

[mgblst]

Look, only a moron would have a problem with the fact that people aren't being paid exactly the same in China as they are in the US or the UK. Most people accept that people get paid differently in different countries, just as the cost of goods is different in different countries.

The real problems is people being treated badly, forced to work ridiculous hours, being chained to their stations, unable to talk about how they are treated, bought by the company, beaten, not allowed to leave the factory, etc...

This is what people have a problem with. If you can not differentiate between the two, then you are the one with the problem. Or maybe you just don't care?

Re:Worker conditions

[jamar0303]

I'll take you up on that offer.

Re:Worker conditions

[drsquare]

If they're being paid American wages, then the cost will mean that no-one can afford to buy them, so they're all out of work.

Re:Worker conditions

[Marxist Hacker 42]

If they're being paid American wages, then the cost will mean that no-one can afford to buy them, so they're all out of work.

Not if you cut profits at the same time.

Overheard at the Hon Hai watercooler

[Anonymous Coward]

me so horny

me love you long time

me so horny

boom boom long time

You go, Gou!

[aapold]

Now that Rupert Murdoch owns the WSJ, I would have expected headlines more in line with, say, the New York post.... you know, like....

Don't have a Gou, man!

Holy Gou!

Gouabunga!

Pass Gou, collect $200 (billion)

Is that to Gou?

2 cents

[GodCandy]

regardless of the working/living conditions of his staff the man is doing well. I would venture to guess that I could walk around my office (also our companies computer room) and would find that 80% of the devices in here have some part from one of his companies.

Its sad that people are forced to live that way but if they were not the cost of a sata cable would be 5X what it is now.

Re:2 cents

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly. I am also happy that kids in developing countries help keep the cost of our T-shirts, toys, and electronics down. If it weren't for those nimble little hands, I'd probably still be stuck with that bulky TV I traded for a nice flat screen last year.

Re:2 cents

[Anonymous Coward]

You're... you're sort of a douche, aren't you?

Shenzhen again!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, this is interesting that this article is on the same day as "Largest People Tracking with RFID" and "Karl Rove leaves White House."

Is Karl gearing up for "RoveMart?"

Amazing.

[AltGrendel]

The article reads like something that should be in a William Gibson book.

Re:Amazing.

[UbuntuDupe]

Uh, what? You kind of have to be reaching to see anti-Semitism in it.

Oh, you said *William* Gibson...

Re:Amazing.

[Dogtanian]

The article reads like something that should be in a William Gibson book. The secretive factory sounds like something out of a Roald Dahl book.

You know it's a slow news day...

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

You know it's a slow news day when the "articles" that get approved on SlashDot are real articles from a real newspaper.

Next time why not just get to the point: "Quit wasting time reading SlashDot, there's more interesting stuff going on in the Wall Street Journal."

Re:You know it's a slow news day...

[evil agent]

Didn't you watch Men In Black? You'll find the real news in the Weekly World News.

Re:You know it's a slow news day...

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't you heard? The Weekly World News is ceasing publication.

I, for one, welcome our...

[Will the Chill]

iPhone-sweatshop Chinese-outsourcing secret-city overlords!

-WtC

*please insert sig for 2 more minutes*

The world's first living Simpson's episode

[krou]

FTA:

In addition to its dozens of assembly lines and dormitories, Longhua has a fire brigade, hospital and employee swimming pool, where Mr. Gou does early morning laps when he is there. Restaurants, banks, a grocery store and an Internet cafe line the company town's main drag. More than 500 monitors around the campus show exercise programs, worker-safety videos and company news produced by the in-house television network, Foxconn TV. Even the plant's manhole covers are stamped "Foxconn."

Is it just me, or could I replace "Longhua" with "Cypress Creek", "Mr. Gou" with Hank Scorpio, and "Foxconn" with "Globex Corporation", and we'd have the world's first living simulation of a Simpsons episode?

I've heard the Chinese were good at imitation, but this seems to be going just a bit too far ...

Re:The world's first living Simpson's episode

[0racle]

Stop him, he's supposed to die!

Re:The world's first living Simpson's episode

[andphi]

I think you missed a chance at a +5 funny: "The Simpsons already did it."

Unless you were shooting for +5 insightful?

Re:The world's first living Simpson's episode

[krou]

Funny will do, but if people find it insightful, who am I to judge?

Re:The world's first living Simpson's episode

[evwah]

but do they have a hammock district? thats the key... but the nice thing is that Mr. Gou gets in the hammock with ya!

Is the work week same in China for overtime ?

[wikiliki]

TFA states that they can make even more with overtime. I always assume that means more than 40+ hours, and time and a half. But I'm am unfamiliar with other countries labor laws. Anyone know if this is the case ? If not, when do they get the overtime, and at what rate ?

Re:Is the work week same in China for overtime ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Chinese labour code link:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2006-05/08/c ontent_584125.htm

Re:Is the work week same in China for overtime ?

[p0tat03]

I don't know about Shenzhen or most of the rest of China, but where I came from in Asia the work day is 6 days a week, 8-10 hours a day. Overtime is paid at par (i.e. there is no bonus), but people love it anyway. Workers in these factory-cities don't have much of a life besides making money and sending most of it back home - so an opportunity to make even more cash with time they wouldn't spent doing diddly squat anyways seems appealing.

Some companies pay out mid-year bonuses based on company performance. This can sometimes be worth up to 4 months of normal wages. It's a cultural thing that simply doesn't exist in North America, and it's like a little Christmas in the middle of the fiscal year.

Re:Is the work week same in China for overtime ?

[CodeBuster]

There has always been a tendency in the past, wherever there were large supplies of workers relative to demand, for workers to "put in time for the company" (i.e. take one for the team) by working *some* extra hours gratis before logging any overtime (this was endemic in Japan during the 1980s where you had the salarymen, as they were called over there, dropping dead from sheer stress). It is implied (sometimes not to indirectly) that if you don't work hard (i.e. meet the quota which is impossible to meet without overtime hours...which you shouldn't declare as overtime because overtime doesn't start until you meet your quota) today then you will be working hard tomorrow to find a new job. In fact there was a poster in a Chinese factory which said as much (it was noted in a Wired News article some months back...sorry don't have the link). This may *technically* be illegal in China, but what recourse does an uneducated worker have against a powerful corporation run by a man with government connections like Mr. Gou? They are basically using the line, "I've got 10 other people who want your job, so I don't care if you burn out because I will toss you out when you do and hire one of those 10 other people. You are expendable and you will like it or you can find another job." The workers take the jobs because even with conditions like that it beats pushing oxen through the rice paddies to earn pennies per day and they can send money home to their families and aging parents.

Re:Is the work week same in China for overtime ?

[E 99]

There has always been a tendency in the past, wherever there were large supplies of workers relative to demand, for workers to "put in time for the company" (i.e. take one for the team) by working *some* extra hours gratis before logging any overtime (this was endemic in Japan during the 1980s where you had the salarymen, as they were called over there, dropping dead from sheer stress).

To me, that sounds more like simply good work ethic and loyalty, rather than a disease as implied by the word "endemic." I've tried to do more than was directly required of me, and more than I would be directly compensated for, wherever I've worked. I'm not saying it should be taken to the point of dropping dead from shear stress, but I do think that the attitude in the East that the whole is greater than the individual, and is worthy of individual sacrifice and loyalty, is far superior to the attitude in the West that corporations are evil, and the individual should bilk their employer for anything they can get.

Re:Is the work week same in China for overtime ?

[CodeBuster]

Perhaps you misunderstood me, I was not implying that one should *never* work hard, but there is something to be said for working *smarter* and not necessarily harder. I can honestly say that some of the hardest working people that I have known were from Asian countries (Korea, China, Japan, etc), but it was also frequently the case that their leadership skills in particular were very severely lacking. They do not have the same cultural imperitives that we have here in America, the rough and tumble culture where the entrepreneurs and risk takers are rewarded and encouraged for being bold and disruptive. In fact, their culture is almost completely opposite from ours in that people are taught to always obey authority without question, play be the rules, work hard, don't step out of line, etc. Just try speaking bluntly or saying "no" to people the next time you are traveling in Asia, they recoil because of the concept of "saving face", but here in America we care about results and if that means breaking a few eggs to make an omellete then we will do it because that is what it takes to win. Now there are some businessmen in China, particularly those educated in Europe or here in America, who are more Americanzied in their business style and they are generally the ones running the companies over there, but a great leader, tested under fire, is more likely to come out of the cutthroat American style of business competition, without apologies or "face saving" compromises, than the Asian one of conservatism and conformity.

Now, if you bury your nose in your work all of the time and you fail to see the forest for the trees then you miss key strategic opporutnities because you are stuck in the details. The Chinese are masters of working harder yes, just look at their factories, but what is missing from those factories? Automation. The Chinese will beat us at the ten people working hard to replace one machine game yes, but more advanced economies, such as those which exist in the United States, Europe, and Japan, have a large head start in robotics, software architecture and design, and automation of manufacturing and production. The United States should compete against China and the rest, but not by trying to beat them on their terms, they have 2 billion people so we cannot win with the throw more people working harder at the problem strategy. Instead we must play to our strengths while we are still ahead in key areas. The Chinese understand well their weakness in this regard and they are racing to catch us, but if we remain sharp then we can stay ahead of their game and beat them to the punch.

The attitude of the entitled worker that you speak of is a product of Socialism and the European system and while there are people on the left that want to import that failed system into the United States, they will fail because Americans are used to the idea of competition and we thrive on that competition (i.e the whole Americans love a winner and cannot stand a loser speach from Patton). The Europeans have not and will never beat us in economic competition and long term GDP growth, because they are not willing to take the gloves off and introduce more risk taking into their societies. The workers who are enamoured of that system are very quickly weeded out of the American system because they can be fired at any time here wheraes in France, for example, it is practicaly impossible to fire a worker no matter how poorly he performs. So do you see my point now? Working hard is worth very little if the work is not contributing to a larger strategy of sucess. Save your overtime hours and efforts for the battles that really count, otherwise you will find yourself spent and unable to pursue unexpected opportunities effectively when they present themselves.

And on a similar topic...

[achbed]

It was reported today that the factory boss who presided over the Mattel lead-painted toy manufacturing has killed himself. These factory towns are so supported by the local and national Chinese governments, that anything goes. Yes, the conditions at most factories are better than they were, but they are so far below US standards it's scary. Also, since most of the Chinese government wants to have people working in these factories to keep their economy growing, the factory bosses essentially becone the local government. We're back to the dark ages of the Industrial Revolution, but now it's government-enforced. And it's all paid for by you and me! Yay globalization!

Wow that rant went a lot of places, didn't it?

Re:And on a similar topic...

[Fnord666]

It was reported today that the factory boss who presided over the Mattel lead-painted toy manufacturing has killed himself.

Now if we could just convince Enron management to follow this example...

Re:And on a similar topic...

[elrous0]

The dude killed himself because he knew that if he didn't, the Chinese government was about too. They take a VERY harsh view of economic scandal there.

Re:And on a similar topic...

[Anonymous Coward]

One did (sort of).

Re:And on a similar topic...

[alienw]

Yes, the conditions at most factories are better than they were, but they are so far below US standards it's scary. OK, I'll bite. Have you worked in a US factory back when those existed? Do you have a basis for comparison? Do you know which US standards are higher? At least the Chinese workers get free health care, which is something US workers largely do not have. The fact is, this country did exactly the same thing back when its economy was going through the growth phase.

Valid point - not a troll

[subl33t]

mod parent up.

You want sweat-free electronics? Be prepared to shell out $$$.

Re:Valid point - not a troll

[sethstorm]

Another part would be to make sure there are robust barriers keeping those electronics out.

Re:Valid point - not a troll

[Marxist Hacker 42]

Just remember that enacting such barriers WILL cost the end-consumer. There's no way to get around the differences between a minimum wage of $8/hr, a minimum wage of $0.32/hr, or an unionized employee's $15/hr wages. Want worker protections? We're going to have to pay. On the other hand, paying this way means more people to buy YOUR products as well. None of us are making anything cheap.

Re:Valid point - not a troll

[megaditto]

The problem could be fixed with unrestricted migration policies (i.e. "open borders"). The only reason those guys are content with $0.32/hr is because they are lock in, and have to get whatever their country can offer.

Re:Valid point - not a troll

[Marxist Hacker 42]

The problem could be fixed with unrestricted migration policies (i.e. "open borders"). The only reason those guys are content with $0.32/hr is because they are lock in, and have to get whatever their country can offer.

No, all that will do is shove a billion people into the United States, and an additional 80 million a year. Better to close the borders entirely than that.

Re:Valid point - not a troll

[Anonymous Coward]

If I don't care how/where it was made, if I only want to purchase something at the lowest possible price, why should my country close its borders to that?

Sounds retarded to me.

Interesting Plant Layout...

[tgatliff]

Quite interesting that FoxComm has put all of its operations in one spot. This is something that US plants are not known for, and I suspect it is due to all types of single point failures such as power, water, and other facilities. One advantage of doing this, though, is that having all 270K of employees makes providing things such as hospitals and other ammenities. I wonder how much US manufactures thought about this in the early days... Meaning, why doesnt Boeing have their own hospital?

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[LynnwoodRooster]

We had those in the US at one time - they were called Company Towns.

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[paitre]

The did in the early days of American Manufacturing - Company Towns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town

Although here, they were more traditionally mining and refining businesses, not outright manufacturing.

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because China doesn't have to worry about Al Qaeda...

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[IBBoard]

Pah, they're not company towns. Port Sunlight in the UK was a company town (built by Lord Leverhulme for the workers at the Lever Brothers soap factory). Being 1880s, I think it beats most American attempts at company towns (although I've never seen the shops in it, but then I've mainly been to the Lady Lever Art Gallery) :)

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[Sunburnt]

They will once their economic interests compel military involvement in the Middle East.

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[Kopiok]

We did have them in the US. They were generally seen as a bad thing because the company would provide these amenities, and subtract it from the worker's pay (even providing what were basically food stamps), and the workers would barely get paid. This tended to lock people into working for that one company, as they could not save enough money to move away and work somewhere else.

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[hcdejong]

Meaning, why doesnt Boeing have their own hospital?

Why would they? It's (as always) a matter of cost vs. benefit. Is the healthcare in the area so bad that it's worthwhile for a company to open its own hospital? Shenzen is a new city, perhaps decent healthcare wasn't available when Hon Hai started their business there. Boeing was started in a long-established city.

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[mgblst]

Perhaps it is a way for companies to get the government to pay their costs. Instead of their own hospital, they use the governments hospital - which in many cases is actually built by the company, and rented to the government.

Re:Interesting Plant Layout...

[tcoady]

Quite interesting that FoxComm has put all of its operations in one spot. This is something that US plants are not known for, and I suspect it is due to all types of single point failures such as power, water, and other facilities.

From TFA:
GLOBAL PRESENCE

Global manufacturing locations of Hon Hai and its affiliates.
TAIWAN
Headquarters - Tucheng (greater Taipei)
CHINA
Shenyang, Liaoning Province
Yingkou, Liaoning Province
Qinhuangdao, Hebei Province
Langfang, Hebei Province
Taiyuan, Shanxi Province
Tianjin City
Yantai, Shandong Province
Shanghai City
Wuhan, Hubei Province
Nanjing, Jiangsu Province
Kunshan, Jiangsu Province
Huaian, Jiangsu Province
Hangzhou, Zhejiang Province
Shenzhen, Guangdong Province
Foshan, Guangdong Province
Zhongshan, Guangdong Province
WORLD
Czech Republic
Hungary
Mexico
Brazil
India
Vietnam
Source: The company

Well you can do two things

[Sycraft-fu]

One would be to do some research and see how the conditions are, relative to others in China. Remember you always have to compare things on an equal scale. You can't expect that someone in China will be paid US wages and live in the same style as in the US. Not only would that not work economically (no reason to outsource) but it could actually severely upset the economy if that happened on a wide scale. So first see if things are actually good, comparatively speaking. If they are, and if the money they bring in is helping raise the standard of living for the workers, then maybe you find that you are ok with how it is.

The second would be to buy good from the US, Canada, Europe, and so on. Now you are correct in that you are going to have your options limited. However that's what you have to accept if you want to stick to this. You can expect to pay quite a bit more and have less choice. In the case of electronics, generally you have to look for professional goods. The margins are higher, the expected quality is higher, so they are often produced in the country the company is based in. There are compensations, though, in that the goods will generally be higher quality both in terms of function and reliability (hence why they cost more and are targeted at professionals).

"Get to the point?" The posts are the point

[Anonymous Coward]

The WSJ is always a great read, but it limits you to sending email to, in this case, Jason Dean. I'd probably want to read the story before I did something like that, but with slashdot I can quickly fire off a pedantic response to some other idiot's post.

Pfft... Propaganda is More Accurate

[mpapet]

It's more accurately described as well-polished propaganda. Clearly, Hon Han has hired Public Relations representatives for some other agenda.

This story would lead me to believe they want to buy Western consumer electronics brands. http://investing.reuters.co.uk/news/articleinvesti ng.aspx?type=media&storyID=nTP151265

Or maybe do it themselves: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118470395184169274 .html?mod=yahoo_hs&ru=yahoo

Either way, this "story" is so light on facts and any objectivity whatsoever it hardly resembles journalism. Since the WSJ is "reporting" it, it will not be scrutinized.

Photos and another viewpoint

[The-Bus]

Wired had a great photo gallery of factories and assembly lines in China.

And here is a write-up about someone from Chumby Industries visiting Shenzhen to get their production line up-to-date. It's more about the area than anything about the factory.

Re:Photos and another viewpoint

[E 99]

Those are some great photos. I watch a regular show called Inside China. They mostly show different rural cultures, but they did at least one show on a live-in factory much like this one (possibly the same). It is such an amazing country, with such a different mindset, that is hard for us Westerners to really get our heads around. I'd love to go there one day. The only two things that are truly disturbing are the amount of pollution due to corruption in government that prevents any remedies, and the intrusion into the private (including reproductive, philosophical and religious) life of the individual that the government still feels is appropriate.

Re:Photos and another viewpoint

[The-Bus]

I think I've seen an episode of this. Intergoogling the tubes just now I couldn't find any info on it though. Is it perhaps called "China from the Inside"? It ran as a four-part documentary on PBS. I saw the first episode, about how the Communist Party controls people even in remote areas. Didn't know it was a series.

National Chinese vs. Local Chinese

[xxxJonBoyxxx]

These factory towns are so supported by the local and national Chinese governments, that anything goes.

Often the national Chinese government wants to clamp down on the factories but can't because they lack the resources to do so and are opposed by the factory's home government. (Similar to the U.S. EPA vs. city governments bought and sold by the local factory.)

Also, since most of the Chinese government wants to have people working in these factories to keep their economy growing...

Actually, the Chinese government is now more concerned about making sure China builds out its white collar jobs more now; the factories are doing fine on their own.

We're back to the dark ages of the Industrial Revolution, but now it's government-enforced.

Even in the U.S., the government was quite active on the side of the factories during the Industrial Revolution - look up "strike riot united states" for taste of some of that.

Yay globalization!

As opposed to what? Living in mud huts making stone necklaces for each other?

Wow that rant went a lot of places, didn't it?

Yes, it kind of did. Maybe it's time to hit the books a little harder...

Valid Point: Not a Troll #2

[mpapet]

Parent statement is accurate. The troll mod is totally uncalled for.

I'm not even THINKING what I'm thinking...

[Anonymous Coward]

"eggs in a basket"... One well placed earthquake...

Gou on the bandwagon

[Anonymous Coward]

Gou west, young man!

You're gouging me!

Oh, gou on!

Gougeres, anyone?

Let's gou surfin' now

Gou-ntown -- things will be great when you're
Gou-ntown -- don't wait a minute more
Gou-ntown -- everything's waiting for you...

Kharma-scraping Google Maps link to Hon Hai

[Uninvited Guest]

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=F oxconn+OR+Longhua&sll=22.683242,114.04727&sspn=0.0 63274,0.107803&ie=UTF8&ll=22.661304,114.066153&spn =0.063284,0.107803&t=h&z=14&om=1

Interesting place. Unless the Google imagery is horribly out of date, the Hon Hai facility has plenty of room to expand.

They didn't take your jobs...

[Anonymous Coward]

I object to the tag "theytookourjobs". They certainly didn't. America as a whole gladly handed over those jobs, the corporations in pursuit of greater profits and the public in pursuit of lower prices. It was, IMO, a very short-sighted mistake, but one that's likely too late to rectify.

Re:They didn't take your jobs...

[Sunburnt]

It's a South Park reference, and so only as idiotic as most tags, not more so.

The OTHER Forbidden City of Terry Gou

[MooseDontBounce]

It's all a front for his HUGH kung-fu training program where, yearly and in secret, he gathers the worlds best in various martial arts disciplines for no-holds-barred death matches. I also hear that this year they will hold ping-pong matches too! We can only hope that somewhere, a man is currently being recruited by British Intelligence to put a STOP to all this!

you're missing the big picture

[Ivan Matveich]

Hundreds of millions of Chinese peasants are still mired in rural poverty. The price of labor can't rise by much until they are absorbed into the economy, something which will happen in a few decades time.

your history teacher was wrong

[rodentia]

The people had already flocked to the city because they had been evicted from their pastoral livelihood by the Enclosure Laws. The industrial revolution happened substantially due to the critical mass of effectively starved humans ready to make the toil economically and emotionally feasible.

And there were no machines on the farms until the late nineteenth century.

Bread only becomes critical on the farm when the cities find it necessary to keep their machine-minder's bellies full. I am not saying the expropriation of labor by capital is not essential. There is no interpretive value in pretending that it is something other than it is for the sake of whitewashing the motives of the haute bourgeoisie.

Re:your history teacher was wrong

[onkelonkel]

Interesting. Turns out one of the reasons for enclosure (besides plain old greed of the landlords) was "The Great Debasement" where the king devalued the currency, and thereby unintentionally caused horrible inflation, to pay for his foreign wars. (Has a familiar ring to it, no?). The landlords were squeezed by inflation and taxes and grabbed the "commons" to help pay their bills.

You are right about the machinery, it happened almost at the end of the IR. So please sub "kicked in head by horse;run over by hay wagon" for "farm machinery".

Not sure if there is any point in debating who were worse bastards, mill owners or rural landlords.

I will close with a poem of that time :

The Golf Links lie so near the Mill
That almost every day
The labouring children can look out
And watch the men at play.

Re:your history teacher was wrong

[rcs1000]

"The people had already flocked to the city because they had been evicted from their pastoral livelihood by the Enclosure Laws. The industrial revolution happened substantially due to the critical mass of effectively starved humans ready to make the toil economically and emotionally feasible."

1. The Enclosure Laws were only in England. The Industrial Revolution happened all over Europe and the US.
2. Between 1500 and 1900, the agricultural output of England and Wales rose three-fold. Enclosure, while not nice for those who were dispossesed, allowed the agricultural revolution.
3. Even in England, life expectancy *rose very sharply* between 1700 and 1900 - if these were "effectively starved humans", why was life expectancy rising?

I'd rather automate

[Travoltus]

If Americans are barred from having manufacturing jobs (which sell to the US market), then hell, why should anyone?

Give us our jobs back or let the machines take over.

Re:I'd rather automate

[CodeBuster]

You are barred from having a manufacturing job not because of the Chinese but because of the federal minimum wage laws (among other economic conditions). In fact it is well known that labor organizations in the United States have long lobbied for the continuation of the minimum wage AND increases to the minimum wage, on account that they, "are looking out for the good of all workers" when in fact they are *hurting* the workers that are not part of their union with these minimum wage laws (and they know that full well...they just don't come out and admit it). If the minimum wage is high enough then the employer will prefer skilled union labor over less skilled non-union labor, not because he needs highly skilled workers for a particular job per se, but rather because it is illegal for him to hire lower skilled workers at a wage lower than the minimum for that job. If the employer is forced to pay the high minimum wage then the employer will prefer the higher skilled (and hopefully higher productivity) worker instead of taking on the lower skilled worker and training him. Thus, since the government of the United States has made it impossible for manufacturing jobs in this country to be competitive (they haven't completely killed it, there are still a few manufacturing jobs here and there in the US, but effectively they have killed the industry) the companies move the jobs to wherever they can be competitive. So it is not as simple as "give ust our jobs back or let the machines take over", but economics provides a satisfactory answer to your question (bitter though the pill might be). Another question that you might ask yourself is this, "If I could legally work for 10 cents per hour to compete with workers in China would I really want to do that?" The answer for most Americans is probably not so the question becomes academic even in the minimum wage barrier was removed.

Re:I'd rather automate

[Travoltus]

"You are barred from having a manufacturing job not because of the Chinese but because of the federal minimum wage laws (among other economic conditions)."

So basically, to compete with China, we need to start working at 60 cents a day.

Do you realize what this will do to America's spending power? It would plunge us into utter poverty. And the rest of the world, too.

Re:I'd rather automate

[CodeBuster]

Hence the reason why we choose not to do it. Let those jobs go, does a Lion in Africa waste his time catching small rodents that aren't big enough for a meal and aren't worth the effort OR does he set his sights on the stomach filling Wilderbeast instead?

Re:I'd rather automate

[Anonymous Coward]

does he set his sights on the stomach filling Wilderbeast instead?

And the ones that can't catch the wildebeest just die.

Re:I'd rather automate

[Travoltus]

"Hence the reason why we choose not to do it. Let those jobs go"

And what do we have to replace those jobs? Biotech? Nope. That's going overseas, too. That was our last frontier. What's the "Wilderbeast" coming next after biotech?

Oh and also take note that US corporations keep screaming for experienced, high-end employees for the high-end jobs (the only >$20/hr jobs we have left now), but guess what? You can't get high-end skills without low-end experience. Which means entry level work.

Entry level xxx-industry jobs in America? No such animal any more. All gone overseas.

Re:I'd rather automate

[CodeBuster]

I didn't get started in the industry until 2002 when I completed my CS degree and I managed to get through the entry level phase and into the career mode so it is not *impossible*. It was difficult for me because nobody else in my family worked in corporate America (my parents and grandparents were all small business owners so there were no family connections), none of my other long time friends from my home town went into IT (they all majored in business, law, or joined the military), and the summer of 2002 was right smack in the middle of the IT bust that started in April of 2001 (just about the time my last internship ended) and was made worse by 9/11. My point is that I got through some tough entry level times even though I had to take low pay for a while, build my skill set, and switch jobs a couple of times to get where I am today (btw: don't be loyal to any small company...they are using you so return the favor and use them right back without any shame) so it is still possible to get that high end job if you really want it, but you have to want it.

Re:I'd rather automate

[MORB]

This is thing that the US love so much, you know - free market. China can manufacture things more competitively, so they get the jobs. Although it's more because of the fact that their money and cost of life is so low compared to the western world than because they are more efficient, I think.

But anyway, you can't expect free market to be free only insofar as it doesn't deprive Americans of jobs, it's a global thing. If company from country A can provide a service for much cheaper than company from country B, then company from country A gets the contracts. Those jobs are not "yours" (as in american's jobs), those are the jobs of whoever can do it the cheapest. You are not entitled to them.

Don't like it? Tough luck, you don't get to reap the benefits of the free market without suffering its downsides as well.

Re:I'd rather automate

[Travoltus]

I'm no fan of the freewheeling free market. I'll pay higher prices for "Made in a Western Nation". I do now, whenever it's possible.

Re:I'd rather automate

[drsquare]

How are Americans barred from having manfucaturing jobs? Believe it or not there are factories in America. Maybe you should try working harder, or better, or learn new skills that Chinese peasants don't have.

Or you could join a union and whine when you don't get eight coffee breaks per three-hour shift. It worked for France.

Re:I'd rather automate

[iamacat]

Entry level xxx-industry jobs in America? No such animal any more. All gone overseas.

With all the due respect, entry level jobs in XXX industry are not going anywhere and they pay $100+ per hour!

surprise

[rodentia]

This is the same municipality that is rolling out the world's first chipped citizen initiatives.

I am sure this is merely coincidental.

Re:surprise

[HungWeiLo]

Shenzhen is perhaps China's biggest magnet for migrant workers. Imagine a city with the population of L.A. doubling its native population within 10 years due to all the demand for workers from all the factories. It's partly due to a need to enforce the inflow of people so that social services don't breakdown overnight.

Related Story....

[Prien715]

There's this other story from a certain "News for Nerds" outlet about the same city considering electronic surveillance. Consider ~5% of the people who live in Shenzhen are employed by this person (WSJ reports factory having 270K employees out of a population of 6M) or maybe who would manufacture said devices, and the stories seem rather related to me.

Not that I'm suggesting a conspiracy, just pointing out that two stories on the front page take place in the same geographic location.

Foxconn is everywhere.

[uncoveror]

While I had never heard of Hon Hai before today, I think I have never seen a PC without at least one Foxconn part in it for at least the last 3 years. That name is on everything but CPUs and ram.

"Took our jobs"?

[toby]

No, suckers, you GAVE your jobs away by misunderstanding your place in the world. Good luck with that...

No joke, do it! Learning Chinese is easy...

[The Underwriter]

I've been teaching myself Mandarin Chinese for 6 months now. Some reasons why you should pick it up:

- It's way easier than Westerners make it out to be...similar sentence structure to English, and the verbs stay the same between different tenses. No conjugations, declinations, etc. In many regards it's much easier than "Romance" languages.

- You will be able to communicate with a quarter of the world's population.

- Though there are 13 different dialects of spoken Chinese, they all share the same writing system. You get to read and write 12 additional languages for free. Japanese uses many Chinese characters, too.

- Because it's so hyped as the world's most difficult language, your Western colleagues and employers will think you're a freakin genius. Imagine having "Fluent in Chinese" on your resume?

- Future study in languages more closely related to English will become comparatively easy. You'd be surprised how much French, Spanish, and German you already unknowingly speak on a daily basis.

- It's utterly fascinating to learn, especially the characters.

- If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

If you want to get the hang of Mandarin Chinese quickly, Pimsleur is hands down the absolute best.

Re:No joke, do it! Learning Chinese is easy...

[nneonneo]

There are *far* more than 13 mainstream dialects of spoken Chinese. For the most part, you need to know Mandarin, and if you want to live in Hong Kong, Cantonese would be an asset. However, there are close to 30 mainstream dialects of Chinese (more, even, by some counts) -- one for each province. Better yet, counting regional dialects (which are different enough to be counted as dialects and not accents), there may be well over 100 dialects of Chinese. Learning Mandarin, though, gives you the ability to converse with about 95% of the mainland Chinese population more-or-less fluently. Tonality in Chinese is probably the hardest thing to learn. Grammar in Chinese is quite simple, as parent noted.

Re:No joke, do it! Learning Chinese is easy...

[Swave An deBwoner]

But the Pimsleur course that I have is audio only -- no written language.

Re:No joke, do it! Learning Chinese is easy...

[Anonymous Coward]

I already learned chinese see:

Chickety China da Chinese Chicken! Have a drumstick and you keep on a tickin!

Chickety China da Chinese Chicken!

Wooohoo!

Re:No joke, do it! Learning Chinese is easy...

[amerinese]

Inter-intelligibility among your so-called Chinese dialects are generally worse than among Romance languages (really). So you're really talking about a language family, though for political reasons, people will try to convince you that they are "just" dialects of the same language. There ARE dialects of Mandarin (what pretty much everyone learns in school in China these days). People in northern China and southern China, for example, have very different accents. Taiwan's Mandarin is pretty distinctive, and there are variations in Hong Kong, Singapore, and the southeast Asia region as a whole as well. Well if you haven't quite digested that first piece of information yet, it's pretty misleading to say that they all share the same writing system. Most dialects aren't written at all (they are really writing Mandarin), and a Cantonese newspaper (the arts section, written in vernacular, i.e. Cantonese), would be pretty unintelligible to Mandarin only speakers. Sharing a large amount of characters gives you more than just sharing, say, the Latin alphabet, because of the meaning associated with each one, but again, it's not enough to allow you to just know all the words.

Re:No joke, do it! Learning Chinese is easy...

[dscruggs]

I strongly recommend going through Pimsleur before learning writing. It helps you get a better sense for how words & phrases sound. Mandarin characters and pinyin will only slow you down in the early going. I've noticed that people who start learning to read & write from the get-go tend to have poor accents. This is why Paul Pimsleur insisted learners focus on aural & spoken language first. I did all three Pimsleur courses before learning any writing, and my (native Chinese) wife tells me my accent is as good as any non-native speaker she's ever met

indentured servitude in china

[fliptout]

Really, these "amenities" are almost standard here in China. In many places that use unskilled labor, the workers live in a dormitory and have access to health care, ie shitty public hospitals or clinics.

They've got access to genuine 1960s era medical technology there, which I suppose is better than medical tech from the Qin dynasty that is available in the boondocks. That is, if people don't just watch you die.

Workers typical have access to low cost/free housing too, which consists of crappy temporary concrete buildings. I'm sure Chinese business owners have a paternal warm fuzzy when taking care of their workers, but don't let the the "spin" of how great the workers have it get to you. The conditions totally suck here.

The Chinese pride themselves on their ability to endure hardship, but the other side of the coin is that they are ignorant of what a better life is like AND they are fairly passive as a people. Change is going to be a long, frustrating progress here. Honestly, I don't think China would be progressing so fast if they weren't being given oodles of money on a silver platter.

In all, more than 450,000 workers are now employed

[polygamous coward]

What's the wage when you add up the "housing" and "food". Read not Communism but Facism.

won't someone think of the management!

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, but, it's not good for enhancing "shareholder value" and improving the next quarterly bottom line, doncha know. Besides, this "my" job will never be outsourced, why, I am just too valuable to my company and I am so leet and etc. And doncha know it's all the greedy workers faults for everything, why, some people think management actually makes decisions! It's all the greedy workers fault for following orders and everything that happens in corporations, and management is always the victim and has no say in anything, it's a wonder they can keep a roof over their heads, let alone the poor investors who do all that hard work in...uhh..well, supposedly there's hard work involved in it someplace, so there!! /snarky

linked

[Anonymous Coward]

Google maps link

it worked before

[Anonymous Coward]

And when the USA did that, when made in america really meant something and when we paid each other quite well, it WORKED, it worked well, and we had a hugely diversified economy, and I am talking about the great years from 1945 to 1970,when we had the fastest rising and most productive middle class in the planet's history, with the most savings, highest levels of real home ownership (most equity on average as a percent of total), and we also had an historical low of top exec pay compared to entry level worker in the same corporation, and a much lower management/investor to productive worker ratio. We had a lot more well paid injuns then, a lot less chiefs making way too much for doing nothing. It worked. Enact policies and set payscales to create a middle class, and that is what you get, and that's what we had then. Enact policies and enact a pay scale that primarily benefits the top 1% and just extends credit in the other direction, and that is the economy you get, and what we have now.

Now, go look at the stats for today, highest level of debt, corporate and private, lowest level of real savings, we are losing ground in healthcare, dropping yearly in every quality of living study that is done, the nation's infrastructure isn't being built, in fact we are still living with what was afforded to be built back then and not even maintaining it, yet alone re investing, and the income disparity is a wider gap now than during the great depression.

We traded all of that for 15 years of cheap crap at walmart and throw away cellphones and management who only know how to cut costs and buy up other comapnies and run them into the ground by cutting costs, never actually doing anything smart or innovative, just cutting costs by laying people off so their next staement shows huge gains and the drooling investors can be persuaded they are somehow going to make long term money on that,. like you can do it forever. Idiots.. n

Now it's all falling apart. This past week's near trillion dollars "injected" directed into the wallets of the already rich who have SCREWED IT UP is just postponing the inevitable, the sucker is going down.

I've already made extensive plans to ride it out, because this is easy to see if you lived through it and watched them setup the suckers for the con, but I know millions are going to be in for the shock of a lifetime when it hits hard. It's not that most folks can't see it, they don't want to see it, believing instead in the lies of proven chronic serial liars.

There's a reason they changed the bankruptcy laws and a reason they stopped publishing the real money supply figures and a reason that private security and the police state apparatus are some of the biggest growth "industries" right now. And anyone who can't figure that out is hopelessly lost or drank so much globalist BS flavored fascist kool aid they can't read a real chart and see the diff between honest figures and doctored crap designed to make things look rosy, where future theoretical credit is treated the same as cash in hand. Freaking ridiculous, graduates of the new fuzzy math business schools or something.

The fatcats who pulled off the rape of the world know it can't last, but they'll be left with more than enough to stay snug and safe behind their literal guarded mansion walls and the walls of government corruption they instigated and the legions of tax payer paid mercenary guards, in uniform or not, makes no difference anymore, who will be tasked to protect them against all the folks who will be suffering who will finally realize how much they have been lied to and abused with this sham of an economy.

Re:it worked before

[Morrigu]

Be careful.

The Western Roman Empire sustained itself for almost two centuries after its near-collapse in the late 2nd century AD by eliminating all that was left of individual rights in favor of state-based militarism, price controls and Imperial power over everything.

Events move faster nowadays, but the whole process of decline and collapse is rarely quick, and I hope your extensive plans cover not just the next decade, but the next couple generations.

Total B.S.

[Anonymous Coward]

You know a lot about it, don't you? Life expectancy is 72.9 years in China, versus 78 in the U.S. This implies that China's medical system is pretty reasonable -- even in the farms, which is where most people still live. Source: CIA World Factbook.

Re:Total B.S.

[fliptout]

Yeah, I live here. QED.

Re:Total B.S.

[fliptout]

I just want to add that I have, unfortunately, seen the insides of three hospitals in China. The BeiDa University hospital at Xizhimen in Beijing, the military hospital for musculoskeletal injuries in Wuhan, and Beijing United Family hospital. The only hospital of those three I would ever want to end up again is the third, because it is for foreigners, and they charge foreign rates for service. Have you been in a Chinese hospital? Well, you too can experience the delight of paying to use the elevator despite having a serious knee injury (happened to me). Need to get an antibiotic injection? The public hospitals have older/less potent medicines. Instead of getting a one time injection, I had to go to the hospital for 45 minutes on three days and have an IV drip hooked up. Not to mention the insides of the public hospitals are not sanitary at all and quite dirty.

I'd say that life expectancy here is due to a mostly healthy diet (low sugar, saturated fat, plenty of vegetables) and lots of exercise. I'm curious how the CIA got the life expectancy statistic, because you cannot really trust the government here regarding any such statistics.

That all said, I still love living here, but offer me another silly rebuttal that is too academic, and I will be happy to blow it out of the water.

Working for free

[Anonymous Coward]

You would do some work for free? A willing slave! I'm sure your bosses love you.

'Scuse me, please

[Anonymous Coward]

may I cut in?
How many others do you think submitted resumes to that entry level job?

chairman bill lumberg

[Anonymous Coward]

"I always tell employees: The group's benefit is more important than your personal benefit," Mr. Gou says.

"But that Peter Gi-Bon ripped down my poster for no apparent reason. That guy is crazy."

Not just a matter of $$$...

[Ellis D. Tripp]

There simply AREN'T any US manufactured TV sets, VCR's, DVD players, PC motherboards, etc. currently available AT ANY PRICE.

About the only consumer electronics that you might find that are still manufactured in the US would be a few brands of high-end audio equipment (Krell, Mark Levinson, etc.), and even then, I sincerely doubt that 100% of the component parts are of US origin. The semiconductors might be branded TI, Motorola, Intel, etc. but they sure as hell aren't made in the USA anymore....

Re:Not just a matter of $$$...

[Marxist Hacker 42]

There simply AREN'T any US manufactured TV sets, VCR's, DVD players, PC motherboards, etc. currently available AT ANY PRICE.

About the only consumer electronics that you might find that are still manufactured in the US would be a few brands of high-end audio equipment (Krell, Mark Levinson, etc.), and even then, I sincerely doubt that 100% of the component parts are of US origin. The semiconductors might be branded TI, Motorola, Intel, etc. but they sure as hell aren't made in the USA anymore....

True- though the original reason was due to cost. A TMS-9995 processor made in Texas cost $10, one made in Taiwan cost $.10. We could eliminate the competition from imports, but there would be a cost to that. Personally, I think it's a cost worth paying.

loverly response

[rodentia]

I don't much care to discuss the niceties of eighteenth-century gentlemen, either. Nor the fallacy of the Malthusian Trap. Nor the accidental nature of the West's *Great Leap Forward* The choices are not better merely for having been made. The degree of pricing power the proles enjoyed in setting the terms for their labor during most of the IR is amply documented. It was not great.

I mean to suggest that progress is far from inevitable or imperative, a rush downstream. It is an uphill fight. It is less and less the case that we must relegate ourselves to the familiar paths of least resistance: exploitation and coercion. There is no freedom from history, merely a progressive unleashing of our ability to project our will onto our environment, others and ourselves.

And thanks for the very apt poesy.

Tor info

[iamacat]

Hi Jamar,

Tor project is one well-established effort for both bypassing the firewall of China and encrypting traffic so that the government can not tell that you are accessing forbidden sites. The project's official home page is at http://tor.eff.org/, however that's probably blocked from China. Therefore, I mirrored some key files on my own site. Please download them for yourself or your friends.

http://homepage.mac.com/cat_plus_plus/tor.html - text of tor documentation (I didn't copy all the images, but it should be usable)
http://homepage.mac.com/cat_plus_plus/tor.exe - Windows installer
http://homepage.mac.com/cat_plus_plus/tor.tar - Linux source
http://homepage.mac.com/cat_plus_plus/tor.dmg - Mac installer.

Let me know if it works for you or if you have further questions. You can reach me at my mac username without underscores at gmail (scrambled to avoid spam). Once you are able to surf anonymously, you might want to get started with the following sites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_Republic_of_ China - unbiased history of your country created by contributors from around the world
http://www.cnn.com/ - The most popular news source in US. Biased in it's own way (for example, whitewashing or involvement in Iraq), but still a good source of information.
http://www.sfgate.com/ - Local newspaper in my area which is far more liberal than CNN.

I am sure other slashdot readers can add more suggestions here.

show me

[Travoltus]

Please, by all means, tell the world about these entry level jobs.