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The ESRB Doesn't Take Games Seriously?
Eurogamer has word of comments by the president of developer Factor 5, Julian Eggebrecht. The veteran game developer had some extremely pointed things to say about the ESRB, an organization he painted as 'not taking games seriously'. Says Eggebrecht, "I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality, but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships, and that is a real problem - and it tends to show that games are not being seen, even by our own ratings boards, as an artform ... It's a flat out bizarre system...It makes it even harder for games than movies because we don't have the intermediate ratings. They don't really tell you what they will object to - they just say 'well, follow the standards that have been set before', which is a problem if you want to push the envelope." There's further discussion of this issue at Ars' Opposable Thumbs blog, which points out that the console makers hold some responsibility here too. Meanwhile, Rockstar is asking for help from the wider games industry to help them to fight the ESRB/BBFC rulings.
If you have a great game, it really doesn't matter what the rating is. Anyone would go and buy the game, even if you had to order it online, or pick it up at the local tiny computer store rather than wal-mart. This is how games like Doom got going; I remember seeing Doom, wolfenstein 3d, etc. for sale in random places when no regular stores were carrying games like that. It may not be as quick a return, but if the game is that good, then it will overcome the censors and be successful anyways (see mortal kombat series also.)
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Forbidden fruit and all.
The Banjo Players Must Die!
Do these ratings have any legal weight? Surely PC gamers can just pay for and download the games that they want. Do people still go to shops and buy a shiny disc in a plastic case?
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
The ESRB takes games too seriously - it's the gamers they don't take seriously.
ccalam - acoustic versions of new songs.
Let's hope this means the ESRB will go the way of the National Legion of Decency. That is, maybe people will just stop paying attention.
Or, does the video game industry have enough power (read: money) yet to get government to change the rules?
Property is theft.
Do we really need content descriptors such as "Crude Humor", "Alcohol Reference", and most shocking of all, "Comic Mischief"?c riptors
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp#des
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Originally, it was to protect the game industry from heavy handed government action. But lately, it has been even more heavy handed, because it isn't required to respect the first amendment, in order to appease all the helicopter parents that can't read labels and think videogames == kids.
However, there is only one real reason or goal that underlies the ESRBs actions and encompasses all of the above.
To keep getting paid for a job that doesn't require any heavy lifting or thinking.
And it will continue that way until videogame companies go the route of comic publishers, giving the ratings system the finger and putting out good "adult-only" title as out-of-store PC-only games until stores and consoles realize that there is money there and they show the ratings system who is the servant.
Or, does the video game industry have enough power (read: money) yet to get government to change the rules?
Obviously not, or some senators wouldn't be calling for probes into video games. They don't seem to have a problem with their buddies in Hollywood, though...
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein
I just watched a movie called "this film is not yet rated" (get it on netflix) where they show just how incompetent and unfair the MPAA ratings board is. If the ESRB is WORSE, then I feel sorry for anyone trying to push the envelope in games developement.
PS. Jack valenti is still dead and in hell
God is real unless declared integer.
I think part of the problem is the AO rating, It looks too much like XXX in movies. I think if it was changed from Ao to 18+ that would take away a lot of the inherent fear that AO titles have. It is less threatening and it says exactly what age group it is for. I do think that is still a band aid solution but it is a start. A huge part of the problem is that all the console makers will not allow AO products on their gaming system and the big chains will not sell it. The industry needs to grow out of this impression that video games are for kids. The average gamer is in his 30's, they need to wake up to the huge market base out there they are missing out on.
My twelve year old daughter explained comic mischief to me. It means the characters are sassy to each other. Spyro the dragon 2 had a lot of un-unnecessary annoying sassyness in it. She does not like that in her games. So if I see that in a game now I know..
Added Pressly: "Oh, and by the way, milk is nothing but liquid meat."
Let's hope this means the ESRB will go the way of the National Legion of Decency. That is, maybe people will just stop paying attention.
Or, does the video game industry have enough power (read: money) yet to get government to change the rules?
The ESRB is the industry. Jesus Christ, how many times does it need to be said? The ESRB is comprised of representatives from the industry itself and is funded by dues paid by the industry. A quick glance of their web site would have confirmed this for you - what do you think "self-regulatory" means? All ESRB members are signatories of its charter and rules. That includes Rockstar, that includes Factor 5.
The ESRB has nothing whatsoever to do with government. That's why it exists; to head off government intervention.
A modern video game (above the level of Xbox Live Arcade material) requires a staff of 20 or more people (not including voice work) and can cost millions of dollars and years of work to develop. This means that money is a VERY real consideration in videogame development. No one is going to spend millions to develop a game that only a handful of stores in the whole country will carry.
Now, you can point out that doing a cheap flash game or simple tetris-like title can be done much cheaper and easier than a full-fledged game. But that's clearly not the kind of game the OP was referring to.
SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality...
And how would that conversation be fun exactly? How would it entertain your audience? Have the gamers of the world been asking for games that "talk about homosexuality"?
The game industry is facing a new threat. It's this Hollywood-ization factor. Game makers are starting to forget their audience and their mission, just as many film-makers have forgotten.
To game and film makers: You are in the entertainment business. No one wants to hear about your ridiculous opinions on politics, culture, or anything else. No one wants to play a videogame where the object of the game is to maximize the game-creators' social climbing.
Tell a story. Show us some nice graphics and animation. Challenge us. Focus on game play.
Leave your teaching, preaching, whining, awareness-building, and all the rest of your nonsense -- anything that's about you and not about the audience -- for your blog entries that no one reads.
I would be happy if in games we could talk about homosexuality, but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships Apparently Eggebrecht has never played The Sims. In The Sims your characters can have relationships with whoever you want. This includes homosexual relations, and you can even have several partners at the same time. They even let you have sex (censored of course, and called a "woohoo") with a same sex partner. This is a T rated game too. I don't see a need to "talk about" homosexuality in games. If the developer wants homosexuality in the game they should just make it happen and not try to draw extra attention to it, like in The Sims. It should just be a normal thing and the characters shouldn't act weird about it, or it shouldn't be in there at all. It's just like real life. I don't care if you're gay, but you don't have to go around telling everyone you meet you are and putting stickers on your car, etc.
So why does more violence and sex make it more of an art form? How about more of a plot? More character development? I can understand about artists wanting no boundaries and not wanting their creativity stifled in any way, but I don't think boundaries are always bad. Eggebrecht draws a parallel with movies and complains about how much movies can get away with compared to video games. Well, let's look at movies in the old days, where they had to work around more limits. In a way that gave them the opportunity to be MORE creative, because they had to SUGGEST more than they could display. Hitchcock movies are VERY suspenseful, even though the violence and gore were pretty tame by today's standards.
You will always have ratings boards or something similar because some consumers WANT them. One person's "art" may offend someone else, so people want to know what they're getting into when they watch a movie or play a game. You may have the right to create whatever content you want, but you can't force me to watch it, and you can't force ESRB or anyone else to give it an "E for everyone" rating.
Prov 9:8 Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.
Video games? Art? Not really. I've only seen maybe a handful of games that I would call "art" versus just a pasttime. My short short list includes Rez and Flow.
The problem is that while film gets artsy fartsy conventions and festivals, game festivals are all about marketability and anything even remotely controvertial gets slammed (Super Columbine RPG anyone?).
I mean, Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, and co have all stated in one way or another that they wouldn't license games exceeding M ratings. Imagine if the companies that build and sell movie projectors had the means to lock-out "unlicensed" film and wouldn't license anything with material they were not comfortable with!
All this combined with useful idiots like Ebert declaring that games cannot be art means there won't be any expansion of thought on gaming until the companies involved grow some balls.
More Twoson than Cupertino
That's not entirely true. The ESRB is caving in to government pressure and kissing politicians asses to try and keep the U.S. government from creating a ratings board. Much of the asshatery that is going on can be traced back to the influence of Jack Thompson who, as a snake-bellied moral grandstander, has cozied up to a number of politicians who should know better and fired them up over the hot coffee scandal.
This is the fall out, the ESRB is scared that it will be replaced with a real censor board, and so now they're ending up being stooges for the government even though they're supposed to the be the industries stooges.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
No way dude, that's blood...Totally different.
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you, for this is my blood... Matthew 26 27:28
One thing I never could stand about Christianity...All the damn vampires.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
I think that "Eurogamer" being the first word in the summary should have been a hint right there.
Hmmm witty sig or funny sig? Maybe elitest techy sig!
WHO isn't at that point? I can think of two mainstream, A-list games, off the top of my head, that casually included heterosexual AND homosexual relationships:
I've never played the Sims, but I imagine it lets you create gay characters too.
Perhaps the problem is with Mr. Egglebert and Factor 5, not with the industry at large...?
It's already easy to talk about homosexuality in games. Just jump on Xbox Live.
You may also encounter discourse on race relations.
I feel the need to point out the BBFC and the ESRB are not even close to the same thing. ESRB is a "voluntary" industry board where people can choose to either submit their works for rating or not. The BBFC is a government agency that is required to approve and rate media for sale within the UK. What Rockstart is struggling with is their game getting no rating from the BBFC which means they cannot legally sell their game in the UK.
/. editor did.
The article does not make this same confusion, though the
D.O.U.O.S.V.A.V.V.M.
If you're willing to submit to censorship then you don't really care about what you're producing anyway. Most movies are crap. They fit the formula and that's about it. Most games are crap. They fit the formula and that's about it. You can attempt art that happens to make money, but you can't attempt to make money and create art.
If we aren't careful video games are going to end up like comics/graphic novels. Infantilized bullshit featuring super underwear heroes. If we want video games that fulfill our demand for intelligent content, then we need a few game artists to tell the ESRB to fuck off and stick to their vision. The ESRB doesn't take games seriously, because censors don't take intellectual discourse seriously. Like all censors they'd rather have pleasant than interesting. The problem isn't the ESRB. The problem is that otherwise self-respecting adults take them seriously. If you're willing to be told what to think, do, say, or code and you're not 4 years old, you should be embarrassed.
But the game had ALREADY been given an adult rating; Mature is for people 17 and older, just like a movie that is rated R and nothing in the Hot Coffee mod was nearly as bad as what you can see in a rated R movie. Not to mention that the Hot Coffee mod wasn't able to be found without either a cheating apparatus (on consoles) or some code modification (on PCs) plus (accoding to Gamespot) hours of gameplay. That's a lot of work to see some badly animated, pixelated characters bump hips (you never did see genitalia); especially when any teen who really wants to see some real sex can just put words like "sex" or "porn" into an internet search engine.
What? Spongebob Squarepants isn't enough?!
but we're not even at the point where we can admit that humans have heterosexual relationships, and that is a real problem - and it tends to show that games are not being seen, even by our own ratings boards, as an artform
Pssst. Those Sims with the little hearts over the avatars? That's not a secret Masonic password, fella.
"I want to see a game with real sexual content in a store here in Germany - I don't think it will happen unless we really recognise games as an artform," he told the audience. He pointed to Stanley Kubrick film Eyes Wide Shut, which "discusses relationship issues that you have in a marriage". "You don't have that in games - it is time to wake up and make it happen."
So games need more Nicole Kidman fantasizing about infidelity while you, as Tom Cruise, infiltrate a coven of America's elite who just happen to hold their orgies at the estate of the Federal Reserve Chairman while performing Gothic chants in red velvet hoodies?
Mouse control or not?