Slashdot Mirror
Big Box Store Reps Push Unnecessary Recovery Discs
Ed Albro, PC World writes "At PC World, we've got a story today on salespeople at Best Buy and Circuit City pushing consumers to pay the stores' technicians to create recovery discs for their new laptops. Recovery discs are important to have, of course, but the fact is that they're easy to make yourself. Or you can get them from the manufacturer of your PC, often for half of what Best Buy and Circuit City charge you. The salespeople often tell you that you can buy from the manufacturer — but they claim you'll pay twice as much as the stores charge."
I remember when it was commonplace to get a recovery disc along with your computer; now you have to pay (quite a bit) for software that's already on your system. What happened?
<sig> </sig>
Best Buy and Circuit City are pressuring customers to buy overpriced add ons they don't need? Hogwash!
Pretty sure that anyone who knows how to make a recovery disk either won't get suckered in, or will purchase it just so they don't have to do it themselves.
The real retail rape is extended warranty.
Never play chicken with a passive aggressive.
A salesperson lying to a customer?! That's unpossible!
"Tell me doctor, with all of your defenses, are there any provisions for an attack by killer bees?"
And the sales associate at Fry's, while trying to sell me the extended warranty, said that warranty replacements on the Wii take forever and are expensive because you have to pay to ship to Japan.
He was flat-out lying, as warranties for North American Nintendo sales go through a center in California, and Nintendo pays for the shipping. But the Fry's employee (a department manager nonetheless) insisted that the shipping/replacement costs and delays were a reason to purchase their warranty instead.
Never underestimate the sleazy, underhanded attempts that a salesperson will go through to get your money, especially if they work on any kind of commission. As a corollary, the less knowledge and understanding the salesperson has about the product they are pushing, the more likely they are to be underhanded in their push.
I'm out of my mind right now, but feel free to leave a message.....
for the more tech savvy, i recommend making an image of a harddrive after the OS and whatever other programs have been installed. I did this for my mom's new computer; i reloaded XP (it came with vista home or something along those lines), installed all her favorite programs, set them up, did a virus/spyware scan, etc etc. after everything was said and done, i loaded Acronis True Image, made an image, and burned it to a boot-able DVD using their boot image.
So now, if there is some weird software glitch or she installed / uninstalled too much crap, i just tell her to back up all her personal documents, pop the dvd in, reboot the computer and voila. a few screens and clicks later, she's back to how it was when she first got it.
seriously, that little app has saved me so much work and time. (not a slashvertisement! i don't work for them, i swear!)
This sig contains repetition and redundancy.
Given that the people who will buy these disks would almost certainly not make their own, let alone request one from the maker, the question is whether the store price is worth the difference between having and not having one. I'd say it is.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
...if you are buying such a disk from them, then you probably don't know how to get one easier/cheaper, so I guess I don't see a problem here. Those with less knowledge in a given domain generally pay more, and are sometimes happy to do so out of convenience.
I was flipping bits on an abacus, newb.
Selling computers without a recovery disk is just not smart IMO. Once you have sufficient problem to warrant restoring the computer, you're already pissed that its broken. Maybe your not pissed at the manufacturer of the PC at that point, because its not necessarily their fault.
But once you find out that its now NOT fixable because they were too cheap to give you a 25 cent to make recovery disk with your $400+ PC you WILL be pissed at them.
Its just bad business practice to me.
IANAA (apologist) but I don't see it as screwing over, in exchange for some of my time to perform for you a service you deem to have value you give me some of your cash in proportion to the value you perceive. The fact that you see no value in buying the disks because you are educated enough to make them for yourself and you have the time/interest to doesn't mean that everyone else is. One can easily change the oil in their car and I often encourage/train friends how to but I don't see places that offer to change it for you in exchange for a fee as ripping you off.
Check out this blog post about 27 Confessions of a Former Circuit City Worker.
There's lots of insights about what the deal really is behind extended warranties, backup discs, and such. For example:
10. When buying a PC you will be asked to have a backup DVD made for a charge of $30. This is done through an application found on all computers, sometimes hidden. You could do it yourself for free. Also, it was very common to sell this on Toshiba laptops. Little do the customers know, it's already in the box. So we would charge, and do nothing.
> One thing that slashdotters forget is with MS Windows, don't underestimate the stupidity of the average user.
> Most probably don't even know what a recovery disk is.
I honestly had no idea what a "recovery disk" was until I just googled for it. I've been using computers for over 20 years, and have made a career as a software engineer for the last 12. I've always just had the full OS on disk. I guess that makes me stupid.
There are 0x40000000 types of people: those who understand 32-bit IEEE 754 floating point, and those who don't.
If the salesman refuses, raise hell with his manager. Purchaser gets the disks for free, salesman gets reprimanded (or fired).
You forget the managers job. His job is to ensure his staff have the tools and pliable morals to sell you things. He won't be reprimanded or fired instead he's be "coached" on how to sell it to you without getting you angry. Perhaps he'll be told a better lie to use.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
Every time I check out of one of these places -- which is not often at all -- I'm invariably offered some kind of extended warranty. When I initially refuse, the cashier usually says something like "You'd really be wise to buy it, these things break all the time."
I respond, "So what you're saying is, this product is a piece of shit and I shouldn't buy it. Check." The look on the cashier's face is always priceless. For a big-ticket item, it's also great to see the sales associate foaming at the mouth because the dumbshit cashier just tanked a sale.
And yeah, I walk right out without buying it. Half the time I never intended to anyway. Hours of amusement, kids!
Yeah, for those of us who know what we are doing a recovery disk is not needed. But that's only about 5-10% of the computer buying population. Most users haven't a clue how to fix even the simplest computer problem and they need that two step process to fix their computer because that's about as much as they can handle:
Step 1) Insert "Magic Computer Fixing" Restore Disk
Step 2) Turn on computer and hope it works
Granted restore disks aren't a cure all, but for most users its the one and only shot they have to fix it themselves.
I hope someone mods this up, especially since there are a lot of folks like me that have ACs auto-modded down.
You're right on the mark. Here's the thing. If you buy warranties on everything you buy that they're offered on, at some point, you will come out ahead on some particular item. A laptop, a refrigerator, a microwave oven, a television, an iPod... Something. And, as the parent post noted, good for you.
However, that thing that you came out ahead on has a nasty way of ingraining itself into your selective memory. You remember that thing that you came out ahead on, because wow, you saved hundreds of dollars. You tend to forget the thousands of dollars you lose $50 to $100 at a time by buying extended warranties that you never need or use.
It's simple psychology, and retail stores are taking advantage of it, along with people's lack of knowledge about computers and their tendency to react to fear, to make billions of dollars a year. Ask any financial expert or consumer advocate and they'll all say the same thing: The only time you should ever purchase a warranty is if you literally cannot function without whatever it is you're buying the warranty for.
Plus, that doesn't take into account the fact that most of the time, it's a lot harder to actually get companies to follow through on their warranties than the salespeople claim it will be. Keep in mind that when companies have to pay out warranties, that's taking money away from them that they had considered pure profit. It's very likely that they'll avoid fulfilling the terms based on some technicality. For example, did you keep all of the original packaging? Even the driver CD? My dad got burned on that one once. He tried to claim an extended warranty repair, and they wouldn't fulfill the warranty because he had thrown away a three-year-old driver disc.
Last, but not least, it may seem like a bargain to buy a $200 five-year extended warranty on a $2000 computer. But in five years, what will that computer really be worth? If you're lucky, maybe $100 on eBay. You can get a replacement cheaper than you can ship the durn thing.
Just don't do it. Take all money you would have spent on extended warranties and put it in a savings account. You'll earn interest on it, and in no time, you'll have enough money in the bank to replace anything like that that you would buy and you'll never need another warranty again.
Funny, I always just cracked open the case and taped the recovery cd(s) to the inside of the case. Always seemed to save me a lot of headaches finding the exact right installer for that paticular revision machine.
You obviously are one yourself, for I clearly remember the page in my CP/M manual urging to and explaining how to actually duplicate the full system and utility disks from the originals as soon as possible, just in case. Going as far as suggesting to make more than one copy.
You assume too much:
1. That the manager will give them to you for free.
2. That just because you complain, a salesman who is following company policy will get reprimanded or fired?
While I agree that you should get OS installation media at no charge with your computer (and refuse to buy one that doesn't come with any) why do you think you are entitled to demand it? You are not. Your recourses are: buy it, haggle or don't buy it.
You may end up getting the media for free, however more than likely the salesman and his manager will talk later on that day about that "whacko customer" they had earlier.
The problem is you are not entitled to have it if it is not an agreed upon part of the sale.
If the salesman refuses, raise hell with his manager. Purchaser gets the disks for free, salesman gets reprimanded (or fired).
I hate to break this to you, but that's not the way it works. I worked for Best Buy for four years, at three different locations across two different states, so I say this with some authority.
See, you seem to think we (I don't work for them anymore, but I'm going to call them "we" anyway) make a lot of money off the computer, but we don't. In fact, when you count my wages, electricity and heating, and all the other costs associated, we're breaking even if we're lucky. More likely, the store is losing a few bucks on the purchase. And me personally? I'm not on commission, and I'm not rated on how many computers I sell, so I don't really give a crap.
So, I look at the other stuff you're buying, to see if we're making any sort of profit on you at all. If you're loaded up with stuff that we actually make money on, I'd be happy to do you the favor. Otherwise, I'd be more than happy to sell that computer to someone we'll make a profit on instead.
Go ahead, threaten to take your business elsewhere. We'd much rather you buy the computer somewhere else, and cause a competitor to lose money. Raise hell with my manager if you want. He'll promise you that I'll be "dealt with" just to make you go away, and then he'll come over and say to me, "man, that guy was a total asshole." I can't even tell you how many times I saw that happen.
There are exceptions, of course. If it's a slow day (meaning the techs aren't busy with customers who actually paid them), and if you were nice to us, we might just do it anyway. We're people too, after all. So many people don't treat retail salesmen like people. If you do, they recognize that, and will do you all sorts of favors. If you're a prick, forget about it.
--
"I personal[ly] think Unix is "superior" because on LSD it tastes like Blue." -- jbarnett
On average, you lose money when you buy insurance regardless of scale. That's, in fact, the whole point of insurance: you pay slightly more than your expected costs up front to negate the risk of unexpected costs greatly in excess of either your expected costs or the insurance cost.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to insure a computer if you are fairly certain (1) you are going to replace it eventually, and (2) you will always have the reserves to replace it at need in an emergency.
OTOH, if may be essential to replace it, and you may not be able to do so out of cash, it may be worth insuring.
on average, that's true of every kind of insurance, regardless of scale. Insurance is worth it (if it is at all) based on the consequences of the potential unexpected downside it protects you against and the degree to which it mitigates that risk, not because you will on average save money with it. Risk is a real cost, even though its monetary value may be highly subjective.
And if you stick to your guns, you'll either have free recovery discs, or be certain they didn't rip you off (and get a computer elsewhere, along with spreading bad word-of-mouth about their practices).
I would love to discuss the mindset trend in North America where people think it is OK to "get free stuff" by creating complete asses of themselves. The very notion that if one were to act childishly and annoying enough that people will just throw stuff at them to make them go away seems completely crazy to me. Why and how do you think this trend started? More importantly do you think this trend can be reversed before our populace is filled with hyper selfish middle agers with an inflated sense of entitlement who refuse to work? This could very well be our empires lead poisoning.
They're just following orders from higher-up, and if they don't have any moral qualms with it, they're assholes, so who cares what they say amongst themselves?
How about the moral qualm of working for a living? Feeding your family? Supporting yourself? The way I see it is this: they are offering goods and services for a price. You do not have to buy it. What is immoral about that? As long as they are up front with you, tell you "yes, you can make the discs yourself" then there is no problem. I am always wary of someone who invokes "morals" but insists that anyone who doesn't agree with him is wrong. Because you belive it to be "immoral" you are willing to make an asshole of yourself in an attempt to get items you did not pay for? Remember, the cost of those recovery CDs are not included with the price of the computer. Who is the asshole now?
Speaking as a former Best Buy employee, I can agree with most of what you say. I would just add that while there was no "formal" commission, I would routinely be reprimanded for letting a laptop or PC be purchased without selling an extended service plan and I would get small things like giftcards and gift certificates if I met my extended warranty "goals" (quota might be a better word with the way they railed on us to sell them). Part of the first day of training they made it clear that in the shopping cart with that PC I better have sold them a $30 gold plated parallel cable for their printer, an extra ink cartridge, and a warranty.
So, I look at the other stuff you're buying, to see if we're making any sort of profit on you at all. If you're loaded up with stuff that we actually make money on, I'd be happy to do you the favor. Otherwise, I'd be more than happy to sell that computer to someone we'll make a profit on instead.
Go ahead, threaten to take your business elsewhere. We'd much rather you buy the computer somewhere else, and cause a competitor to lose money. Raise hell with my manager if you want. He'll promise you that I'll be "dealt with" just to make you go away, and then he'll come over and say to me, "man, that guy was a total asshole." I can't even tell you how many times I saw that happen.
I've worked at Best Buy as well, for both the computer and Geek Squad departments. While it is true that Best Buy does not make much money off a computer sale alone, you forget that a non-sale of a computer is still lost revenue.
Pick a scenario:
1. Make an immediate sale, but with less profit.
2. Deny the sale because of the "measly" profit and have the computer sit there for a few more weeks.
From a business perspective, you've already lost money on wages, electricity, rent, products, etc. By having your product just sit there, you are doing nothing for the overall productivity of the company. Dell makes huge profits because they have a negative product-stocked/sales ratio. They actually sell the product before they have to store it in their warehouses, if at all.
Best Buy, from what I can remember from our store meetings, have a product shelf life of about 1-2 weeks before they have to replenish stock. The process goes something like this:
1. Buy products from manufacturers. (Lose money)
2. Keep products in warehouses.(Lose more money on rent/maintenance of warehouse)
3. Sit on store shelves, awaiting sale. (Lose more money on employees and other retail costs)
4. Finally selling the product to a customer. (Profit!)
It's understandable that you'd want to sell the computer bundle for as much money as possible, but there are times when that won't happen. Customers will simply come in for the computer itself and nothing else. At times when it's a huge sale and with limited quantities, I've seen employees say they're out of stock simply to stop the sale from happening. Ethics aside, I can see why a store would want to do that (though I don't agree with it). But when that computer will just be sitting there for weeks, what's the point in not selling it? You're just going to cost the company more money.
Okay, let me get this straight. You think that not providing someone with a copy of the software that was licensed to them when they bought the computer, and in fact, trying to get them to pay for it *again* is not as bad or worse than someone raising hell to get the CD that they should have been given in the first place?
There are a few things you must understand: you can create the recovery discs yourself, and the cost of the recovery media is not included in the price of the PC.
On top of that, things change. What you believe "should be given in the first place" is not fact. Simply because you believe that to be so, does not mean others have to abide by it.
That being said, your statement "that they should have been given in the first place" denotes that they accepted the terms of sale already, in which case, as long as the sellers were up front about what was being sold, and did not use any form of deceit, then yes, I believe it is not as bad as someone "raising hell" to get recovery discs for free.
They can make their own discs, discs were not part of the sale agreement nor included in the price, and "raising hell" to get what you want for free is something a child does, not something an adult does.
It's not that severe of an issue, but it's still trying to take away the right to have a copy of what you paid for (and no, most sellers won't tell you that you can make a copy yourself, nor should you have to. The software was part of the purchase price).
It is not a "right", and the copy that you purchased is on the hard drive. The copy that you purchased also has built in capabilities to duplicate itself for backup purposes. If you bothered to RTFA you'll notice that most sellers DID inform the buyers that they can make the backup themselves.
Again, if you don't like the terms of sale, don't buy it. You do not have some magical "right" to a recovery disc.
Personal responsibility, where art thou?