Palm Withdraws Linux-Powered Foleo PC

M Saunders writes "Not long after we enjoyed playing with the device at LinuxWorld 2007, Palm has announced that it is shelving the Foleo handheld PC, before it was due to ship, so that the company can focus on a 'next-generation platform.' Palm hasn't ruled out a 'Foleo II' at some point, but for those of us looking forward to dinky Linux-powered laptops it's a bit of a disappointment. Still, with the Asus Eee PC nearby — and at a very low price point — perhaps it was a sensible move by Palm."

Comments

I'm not surprised.

[Dster76]

It's not a laptop, but it's a reason to carry an extra charger, in addition to your smartphone's. Don't these product designers every travel?

Re:I'm not surprised.

[click2005]

Hopefully this will be the start of a trend..

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200612/19/eng200 61219_334047.html

They should use USB chargers for all portable devices (assuming USB has enough juice to charge it).

Re:I'm not surprised.

[arashi no garou]

It was my understanding that this device was to use the same Palm-branded charger that the Treos and the Treo-branded bluetooth headsets share.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Mikachu]

Are you saying we might be nearing an end to overpriced cell phone chargers?

I wish the US government would follow suit. The chargers, at this point, often cost as much as buying a new phone (subsidized, of course).

Re:I'm not surprised.

[DogBotherer]

In Vietnam, a standard Nokia charger costs around 50,000 vnd (about $3.25), just so you know how much you're being overcharged...

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Zebedeu]

And what percentage is that of the average wage?

The average wage in Vietnam is $700/year [1] while in the US it is $36,764/year [2].
I'm not even going to bother with calculations. I think the point is clear: You're not really comparing apples to apples there.

[1] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5301086.stm
[2] http://www.bls.gov/cew/state2002.txt

Re:I'm not surprised.

[1u3hr]

The average wage in Vietnam is $700/year [1] while in the US it is $36,764/year [2]. I'm not even going to bother with calculations. I think the point is clear: You're not really comparing apples to apples there.

Irrelevant. The manufacturer doesn't bill depending on the customers' average wage levels. And I think the shipping cost from Vietnam to the US (in the worst case) in any quantity will be a few cents per unit. The rest is retail markup -- which is influenced by local wages and rents, but considering how cheap a lot of similar gadgets are, shows you most of it is profiteering because you have no option but to use the prorietary charger.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Anonymous Coward]

I first saw the Folio last year when I was doing a QA contract. While I didn't work on that project I sat with the people who did. After signing the NDA's, (now expired since this is public), the thing was explained to me. My first response was "Why? What's the point?" This thing is about the size of a laptop and requires a connection to the Palm in order to work. I always thought that a laptop would do the job just fine and it wold be one less thing to haul around with you.

No one who was doing the testing could really get into using it. (Of course all the bugs the thing had at the time didn't help any)

When I was told what the price was going to be I knew right then that thins thing wasn't going to make it. Between the palm and the folio you were looking at around $1000 plus the monthly connection fees. IMHO this ranks right down there with the Segway. Fun, but not really useful and to damn expensive.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Zebedeu]

You write "which is influenced by local wages and rents" as if it was accounting for only cents in the retail price. I think it probably has a bigger influence than that.

Having said that, I agree that the manufacturer is profiteering, but probably not as much as you insinuated by your original numbers. Besides, I would think that they also markup the prices in Vietnam by as much as they think they can get away with (which is obviously much less than in the US).

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Phil John]

My HTC produced WinMo device (T-Mob MDA Vario II, also known as the Hermes or TyTn) trickle charges off USB when plugged in. There's been a few times I've disabled it (like when I'm using it as a 3G modem plugged into may laptop which is itself running off battery) but normally when it's cradled it's charging.

I can't actually remember the last time I used the charger that came with the thing.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[felix]

The only thing that surprises me is how not surprised I am about this 11th hour cancelling of the Foleo. For Palm's sake I had been kind of clinging to the notion that perhaps it was all simply bad marketing and that when the Foleo was released a light would turn on as to why it was going to be the mass market hit they needed it to be. It turns out there was no one behind that curtain. It may have been an appealing product for some - but really for very few. And the cost? Well, Colligan says that their going to take a $10 million hit, but what was the opportunity cost for palm? How much has it cost them in the years they spent developing the Foleo while letting their gigantic industry lead in the smartphone business die, leaving them as a has been? Turning their once thriving community of fanatics and developers into a dwindling one filled with resentment?

Heh, I blogged a good more about it... but Colligan really, really has to go.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[1u3hr]

You write "which is influenced by local wages and rents" as if it was accounting for only cents in the retail price. I think it probably has a bigger influence than that.

Yes, a few dollars perhaps. Look at the price of a generic transformer, same size, shipping cost, similar manufaturing cost, and the overhead (wages & rent) should be similar too. But the branded one sells for much, much more. There's no reasonable explanation except profiteering. Like many inkjet refills, for instance. Generic brand; same quality, 1/4 the price.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[digitig]

I thought the free market was supposed to achieve that? ;-) Here in the UK, a charger for my phone costs between £20 and £25 from the various mobile phone shops, but a "universal" charger, which fits all the phones in the family except for my son's Sharp, cost less that £7 in a supermarket. Seems to work fine.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Zebedeu]

As I said, I agree there's profiteering, but again, your comparisons aren't really fair: usually the generic transformers (batteries, ink cartridges, etc) are lower quality than the official ones, and quality is expensive.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Bastard of Subhumani]

You really swallowed the genuine kool-aid. Often as not, the generics are made in the same factories.

But the point is that if they used a standard connector, whether USB or one of the cylindrical types like many music players use, you wouldn't need to buy a new charger at all, ever.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Zebedeu]

Often as not, the generics are made in the same factories. Yeah, sometimes, but most times they are made in some other factory where QA are just two letters of the alphabet. Maybe it's not important to have a quality charger, but in some other products quality does matter.
And you can't tell me that if you have a charger from Nokia on your hand and one from a generic brand, that they will look the same quality.
I bought an after-market data/power cable for my PDA, and on the connector it's written on one side "up". That side is actually the part that is down, but whatever.

But the point is that if they used a standard connector, whether USB or one of the cylindrical types like many music players use, you wouldn't need to buy a new charger at all, ever. We weren't discussing this. When that day comes you won't hear any objections from me (though I would still prefer it if there was massive uptake of those tabletop wireless chargers).

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Orange Crush]

But the point is that if they used a standard connector, whether USB or one of the cylindrical types like many music players use, you wouldn't need to buy a new charger at all, ever.

Oh, to hell with those "standard" cylindrical connectors. There's nothing standard about them. Endless variations of connector size/shape, the size/shape of the pin hole in the center mean the generics almost never fit right, or you have to buy one of those multiple-bit adapters that fall apart or the bits get lost, and the voltage and amperage can be different . . . *shudders*

Give me USB any day. Standard voltage, size, shape, connectors, all that good stuff.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[1u3hr]

your comparisons aren't really fair: usually the generic transformers (batteries, ink cartridges, etc) are lower quality than the official ones...

You can find generic crap. But if they're not constrained by patents, you can get third party compatible parts of at least as good quality.

For instance, I personally use laserjet toner "clone" cartridges, half the price of HP's, and the quality is no different, I've printed tens of thousands of pages. Inkjets are similar, read up on comp.periphs.printers for lots of pointers to good ink refills.

As for battery chargers, I can buy an excellent quality brand name charger, for a standard battery, much much cheaper than the ones that fit the unique phone socket. I fail to believe that the funny plug justifies the extra cost.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Zebedeu]

I fail to believe that the funny plug justifies the extra cost. It does in the sense that the economies of scale for custom components don't work as well as with standard plugs.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[1u3hr]

t does in the sense that the economies of scale for custom components don't work as well as with standard plugs.

That accounts for a few cents. No more. And in any case, if they used a standard connector, they WOULD get the economies of scale.

Re:I'm not surprised.

[Bastard of Subhumani]

Beh. I have several and I manage not to lose the ends. Maybe I'm lucky, but most of the stuff I use regularly takes the same anyway. As to the voltage, I pay a little extra for the switchable ones and as to the current, it's enough - and considerably more than the USB standard allows.

The answer....

[AKAImBatman]

...to why it was cancelled is right here:

http://www.engadget.com/2007/08/21/dear-palm-its-t ime-for-an-intervention/

Palm actually listened as they mentioned in their reply:

http://blog.palm.com/palm/2007/08/thanks-engadget. html

Re:The answer....

[acacia]

Full disclosure: I now own a Treo 680 that I love. I've had a Tungsten T3, m505, m500, and V. So I'm not really too objective a voice.
That said, I've also owned a iPAQ 6920, RIM 7100t, and RIM 7130e.
Based upon that history, I think I know a couple of things about handhelds.

I'm a consultant with no real base of operations outside of my house, so mobility is critical to my job. Little things like a phone that actually works as a phone is pretty big in my book, since people generally like to call you on your phone. ;-) Equally important is battery life, since you never know how long you'll be delayed at ORD, LAX, MSP, etc. Finally, a device must be operable with one hand as you are walking through an airport or while taking notes with the other hand.

The Engadget article was insightful, but I think that the basic functions are done better than most in the market today. The 680 is, hands down, the best handheld device I have ever owned. To me, the cardinal virtues are battery life, call clarity, one-handed usability, and application availability. On those scores, the battery life trounces the iPAQ and is dead even with the RIM devices. The interface is comparable to the RIM devices for single handed operation, and the call quality tops all of them. Given such a good resume, why is the Palm struggling? I still cannot figure it out personally. They are late to the game with Exchange syncing, so that was a pretty big hurdle, but now it is a non-factor. The rich offering of applications like GPS navigation, voice recording, and entertainment options are great. Exchange syncing on Palm devices with MS operating systems preceded it, but when you look at battery life and usability of the interface, that humble Palm OS stacks up favorably.

I'm thinking that Palm needs to really apply marketing muscle into enterprise acceptance. I cannot fathom where a new laptop helped with that, so I think ditching the Foleo was good. Palm really needs to continue to focus on the enterprise user and enhanced productivity, with an eye toward those cardinal virtues, and perhaps either partnering with Google or (god forbid) being acquired by Google as a portable physical gateway into the Google ecosystem.

Re:The answer....

[adrianmonk]

I wrote apps for Palm OS for a little over 3 years, and that Engadget article was right on the money. That Palm responded at all was a positive thing, but that may be the only positive thing they do about it. Their response has a hint of phoniness to it, as if they had never thought of any of the ideas listed but answered with "uh yeah, of course we're working on that". If their behavior over the last few years is any indication, they'll probably end up releasing a new device that addresses exactly none of the points. I only say this because of the long string of broken promises and lame excuses from them over the last few years. But I dunno, maybe they have hit rock bottom and they are ready to start climbing up again and will actually do something. I'd love to see it, because honestly there isn't a really great mobile device out there, and given how much hardware has advanced, there totally could be.

At any rate, as a former developer for Palm OS, it'll take a lot to get me interested again. Even if they were to release a product that is absolutely smashing and kick-ass from both a technical and user experience point of view, many of the small shops that were doing apps for Palm OS have seen a BIG drop in revenues, and I don't think it's a very good financial gamble to develop for some new device. I'd have to take a big pay cut and in return for it I'd get a huge amount of risk that I'd be spending a bunch of effort on a platform that will go nowhere. Not very enticing.

Re:The answer....

[Atlantis-Rising]

At least for the people I work with, the answer is that the Palp is too simple, and somewhat as importantly, too expensive for the innards. The iPhone suffers the latter problem, although I have never used one, so I have no idea about it's relative simplicity.

At least everywhere I've worked, Palm devices are dropped in favor of Windows Mobile because the latter are apparently easier to write applications for (I've never written one so don't know), especially complicated applications with hardware hooks. Simple is good, I am told, but if I'm going to carry something that big around in my pocket I want it to be as useful as I can make it- and that's where Windows Mobile works.

My personal phone has(had, a new battery is on order for it) excellent battery life, between 8-20 hours of talk/audio/work time; terrible phone quality, terrible one-handed usability, and mediocre application availability. But I found it far more valuable than a Treo or a Blackberry; for what appeared to be equivalent bulkiness, the machine I had in my pocket could perform the functions of any ultraportable laptop. Screen real-estate and keyboard quality were both critical for this, as was networking capability and desktop interoperability.

I suppose that just goes to show you, then, that it really depends what your enterprise users do with their smartphones. :p

Re:The answer....

[NDPTAL85]

Treos are way too thick. Compare their thickness to a Motoral Q or Samsung Blackjack. People don't like thick phones. The iPhone does MORE and is thinner. (And before you think of replying with a snarky "But the iPhone isn't a smartphone cause you can't install 3rd party apps, take a look at this: http://lifehacker.com/software/hack-attack/install -third+party-applications-on-your-iphone-295985.ph p )

Palm is simply lagging in both hardware AND software. Where's that new OS btw?

Re:The answer....

[IHateEverybody]

At least for the people I work with, the answer is that the Palp is too simple, and somewhat as importantly, too expensive for the innards. The iPhone suffers the latter problem, although I have never used one, so I have no idea about it's relative simplicity.

At least everywhere I've worked, Palm devices are dropped in favor of Windows Mobile because the latter are apparently easier to write applications for (I've never written one so don't know), especially complicated applications with hardware hooks. Simple is good, I am told, but if I'm going to carry something that big around in my pocket I want it to be as useful as I can make it- and that's where Windows Mobile works.

Palm also makes Windows Mobile Treos.

Re:The answer....

[Atlantis-Rising]

And their hardware innards are extremely expensive for the relative quality of the hardware. For example, the smartphone I have is a MDA Pro- a 640x480 screen, 128 MB of RAM, 620 Mhz processor, wifi, bluetooth, 3G, dual video cameras fore and aft... Palm has nothing on that.

If you're going to buy a Windows Mobile phone, you generally go with HTC, in my experience.

Makes sense on a dozen levels

[Simon Carr]

There's a new, weird surge of mini devices coming. Palm's entry was kinda neat but really failed to live up to some of the promises of the other devices coming out.

It's sensible; they're waiting to see how hard the Eee fails in this arena before they try to launch. They'll either compete directly with the Eee and the others or they'll learn from the failures of the Eee and we'll see an even neater (can I say that, neatER?) device from Palm.

I still love my Sony Clie, and I wish Palm the best, I'd really like to see a new Palm device that had a fair chance at rekindling the good old days of the Palm Pilot.

PS. I'm not damning the Eee pre-maturely, I'd love to see it flourish as well but I'm not holding my breath. Every time Asus raises the price a hair every tech forum goon places bets on it's death. What makes me think they may be right is that these cheapskates are it's primary market. If they aren't willing to buy it at $300 or even $400, they probably never would have seriously purchased it at $260 or whatever the limbo stick was at.

Re:Makes sense on a dozen levels

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they can sell the lot to Apple. Once Apple re-brands it and sells for x4 the price, the demand will go through the roof.

Unsostainable platform

[feranick]

The Linux platform the Foleo was built upon is different from the one they are currently developing for the next line of smartphone. Thus it is quite expensive and resource intensive for them to maintain two lines. The Foleo II will have the same OS powering both the Foleo and the smarthphone. In addition to this, the Foleo had a very limited amount of application that could run out of the box, making it not very practical/useful to use. Finally, in the current generation one it only support tethering with a Palm phone. In few words: a very restrictive platform, a dead end for Palm. Let's hope generation two will be better.

Re:Unsostainable platform

[Erwos]

"In addition to this, the Foleo had a very limited amount of application that could run out of the box, making it not very practical/useful to use."

That's for sure. The Foleo's specs compare pretty well... to the two-year-old smartphone next to me.

Re:Unsostainable platform

[Chanc_Gorkon]

If there are any Foleo devices out there, I hope that Palm sells them off and open sources the software. There's too much work on a portable device that was so close to shipping to waste. Then again, maybe Foleo wasn't as close to shipping as we once thought? I don't know, but I DO know that devices such as Nokia's N800 are gaining a following and opening the source for the Foleo could also possibly benefit Foleo II once a redesign makes it smaller.

Re:Unsostainable platform

[feranick]

The problem is that other than the kernel, everything else in the current Foleo is specific for that platform. It won't share about nothing with the PalmLinux that will go on Palm smartphones. Keeping in mind that no devices have been sold, open sourcing the Foleo platform makes as much sense as open-sourcing a prototype. The PalmLinux will be very different, probably will make extensive use of Java. So even if open-sourced, many application designed for the foleo will need to be eavily rewritten for the new platform. Remember, if it would have at least a little bit of compatibility with the future products, they would never have killed it.

Not if but when?

[David Hume]

From the summary:

Palm hasn't ruled out a 'Foleo II' at some point

FTFA:

Jeff Hawkins and I still believe that the market category defined by Foleo has enormous potential. When we do Foleo II it will be based on our new platform, and we think it will deliver on the promise of this new category.

Re:Not if but when?

[Kingrames]

I think he was hoping you'd bet otherwise.

SURPRISED?

[MikShapi]

That a 500$ non-x86 glorified PDA in a UMPC form factor and lacking wireless capabilities would not sell in 2007, when Asus intends to push an XP-capable PentiumM-based EeePC that will harness the Windows application base for 200$-300$?

When two weeks after its announcement, VIA showed a reference C7-based UMPC (reworked nano-itx rig with a screen, really)?

GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK. I'd be surprised if palm managed to sell more than four of these units. Whoever made the call to do this product is a clueless idiot, and the engineers working for him are clueless idiots for not having pointed just how pathetically backward such a product would be in light of existing competition. It wouldn't have sold a decade ago. NOW?

1999 called. They want their Jornada back.

Re:SURPRISED?

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

1999 called. They want their Jornada back.

Sweet. I've been looking to offload that piece of crap. Any chance they'd be interested in taking back a then first lady?

Re:SURPRISED?

[GarfBond]

Lacking wireless capabilities? It had both Wifi and Bluetooth for piggybacking on your phone's WAN connection.

Erm ...

[shellbeach]

... it's called "saving face".

Unless I'm very much mistaken, there will never be a Foleo II. The press release is merely a cover for the fact that the product concept was DOA. Nobody was interested in the Foleo apart from a few geeks who wanted a cheap sub-notebook that ran linux. For business users there just wasn't a market for that thing and there most likely never will be.

Even die-hard Palm fans hated it, renaming it the Flopeo or Fooleo. Palm seriously screwed up with this one, but at least they had the courage to axe it before making complete fooleos of themselves ...

Re:Erm ...

[Planesdragon]

Unless I'm very much mistaken, there will never be a Foleo II. ... Even die-hard Palm fans hated it, renaming it the Flopeo or Fooleo. You are. There were more than a few die-hard palm fans that looked at the Foleo, and though "hey, that's worth $600." Most of those that didn't did not as much ridicule the concept (a Palm OS pseudo-Laptop!) as mock its lack of media capability.

If the Foleo could manage a plug-in USB 2.0 DVD drive, had a full PCMCIA slot, and out-of-the-box could be used to watch YouTube, it'd be on shelves right now. I'd expect the last one to be fixed, and then the Foleo launched in six months or so with the single "Palm Linux" OS.

Re:Erm ...

[shellbeach]

You are. There were more than a few die-hard palm fans that looked at the Foleo, and though "hey, that's worth $600." Most of those that didn't did not as much ridicule the concept (a Palm OS pseudo-Laptop!) as mock its lack of media capability. Well, that's certainly not true over at palminfocenter - most people there mocked the general design of something that was larger than a PDA and had less functionality (e.g. no touch screen, not as portable, lacking applications, etc, etc). A big criticism was that Palm had created the solution to a problem that didn't exist. Even those that did like the concept had to fall over backwards to justify some use for the thing.

If the Foleo could manage a plug-in USB 2.0 DVD drive, had a full PCMCIA slot, and out-of-the-box could be used to watch YouTube, it'd be on shelves right now. I'd expect the last one to be fixed, and then the Foleo launched in six months or so with the single "Palm Linux" OS. In other words, if the Foleo was actually a sub-notebook, rather than an oversized, feature-reduced PDA for which the principle use was to sync with your smart phone? Sure, you might sell them as well as an EeePC ... but there still isn't the market for these things that Palm thought there was. A business user will already have, and need, a smart phone and a laptop: there's simply no call for some halfway house that has the worst of both items! Really, these things are just toys - very, very few people actually need something like this.

Remember, Palm initially hyped the Foleo as the "most exciting project" they'd ever designed. It was supposed to be revolutionary, the next big thing. Palm fans (myself included) were speculating for months what it could be. Hawkins was pushing this to the hilt. The reality is that he cocked up big time, and Palm has finally realised it.

You can't seriously tell me you believe this is all down to platform compatibility, can you? That problem hasn't just arisen in the last few weeks, and you don't hype a product, announce it with fanfare ... and then pull it a month before its due to hit the shelves unless something went seriously wrong. And the thing that went seriously wrong, I would guess, is that nobody was going to buy it.

Re:Erm ...

[IHateEverybody]

Even die-hard Palm fans hated it, renaming it the Flopeo or Fooleo. Palm seriously screwed up with this one, but at least they had the courage to axe it before making complete fooleos of themselves ...

The so-called "die-hard" Palm fans over at Palminfocenter (or "Palm-faithful" as some of them like to call themselves). Have hated every Palm device since the Palm m-series back in 2001. With very few exceptions, they've proclaimed every single device Palm has brought out in the last five years to be dud. It looks like Palm has finally agreed with them for a change.

Re:Erm ...

[shellbeach]

The so-called "die-hard" Palm fans over at Palminfocenter (or "Palm-faithful" as some of them like to call themselves). Have hated every Palm device since the Palm m-series back in 2001. With very few exceptions, they've proclaimed every single device Palm has brought out in the last five years to be dud. It looks like Palm has finally agreed with them for a change. Geez, I didn't think anyone ever liked the m-series! And the T3 is a revered machine amongst most Palm users, even over at PIC - I still regret not buying one at the time. But apart from that ... Palm hasn't really produced much impressive hardware recently, have they? And then there's the disaster that is FrankenGarnet, the failure to support Cobalt, the splitting of the company and then buying back the Palm trademark from PalmSource ... you couldn't really do worse if you tried!

I think that's what really gets to people - Palm had so much going for it back in 2000, and yet from a massive user base with an astonishing wide range of software they threw it all away. Now it's Apple who's making all the innovation with the PDA market in the form of iPodTouches and the like, whilst Palm fiddles with foleos ...

too little, too late

[Roadmaster]

Well, the Foleo compares UNfavorably to my 10-year-old Toshiba Portege; it's also only slightly smaller than my current notebook computer. So I'd rather carry a full computer around; specially if it's the same weight-wise.

Palm decided to throw all their weight and resources behind the Treo line, and thus rendered themselves irrelevant in the PDA business, leaving a lot of users without any clear upgrade path (my T3 starts to show its age and it lacks all sorts of connectivity). Also they have slept in their laurels and have a last-century operating system that's hopelessly out of league with any other smartphone or PDA device out there. I have zero faith in them now, and while I'll be in the market for a smartphone in the next couple of years, it sure as hell will not be a Palm device; while I hope my T3 survives that long, should it fail, I'll just stop using a PDA altogether, Palm's current offerings really are *that* bad and Foleo was only an indication that they're not about to improve.

Re:too little, too late

[Fnkmaster]

Resources behind the Treo line? The Treo 600 was a brilliant product in its day, but all they've done in the 7 years or so since is basically bugfix and do new plastic moldings. And come out with a line of me-too Windows Mobile devices.

If that's all the resources they have they are screwed. The whole point of dumping the Folio is to focus on their new OS.

The whole problem is that this company was nearly destroyed by splitting off the OS division into PalmSource. The hardware division is worthless without a great OS to back it up.

The iPhone sucks in a zillion ways, but it's got a great OS running on a limited piece of hardware. And it can't even do shit out of the box, you have to hack it to even make it moderately useful. Still demolishing the Treo in the market.

That's pathetic. Palm needs a new OS. Palm OS is looking so long in the tooth it's ridiculous.

Linux Folley?

[Anonymous Coward]

The've recalled the linux Folley?
hrm.

Looking forward to dinky Linux-powered laptops...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you can look backwards, as well.

The Nokia N800 serves as a good, tiny Linux palm-sized PC. It seems to be what Palm was going to put out -- but it's a lot more open, and it works with many more phones.

What was the question?

[fm6]

That's a mostly insightful rant, but it's only got a couple of sentences about the Foleo. And that's a weak point — they're basically saying nobody will buy the Foleo if the Treo sucks. Which is kind of dumb, since the Foleo isn't that tightly bound to the Treo.

The big question with the Treo is whether there are enough people who need more than a PDA but less than a full laptop. Or maybe I should say, "who will buy less than a full laptop." Because there are a lot of technically clueless folks out there who'd be better off with a device that simpler than a "real" computer but does everything they need to do — most users just don't need all the functionality a PC provides. But every time somebody comes out with such a device, it fails miserably.

Why? Because such devices only cost a little less than an equivalent PC. And people would rather pay a little extra and get all that extra functionality. Even if it's functionality the won't use.

What I want to know is why Palm won't do a phone that isn't a minor variation on the Treo. There are still folks out there who don't need a QWERTY keyboard and do need a phone that will actually fit in a pants pocket. It's sad and ironic that Palm doesn't recognize this, when their foundation product was the first practical pocket computer.

Re:What was the question?

[Sandor at the Zoo]

Palm can't (or doesn't feel that it can) compete with Nokia et al in churning out low-end phones. Palm can only stay in business by making higher-end smartphones.

Their biggest problem is that their product cycle is way too long. The hardware and software revs between models seem small enough, but they're taking more than a year to push them out. That can't go on much longer.

Re:What was the question?

[admactanium]

Why? Because such devices only cost a little less than an equivalent PC. And people would rather pay a little extra and get all that extra functionality. Even if it's functionality the won't use.

you're right on target with the price problem of the foleo. this comment though strikes me as a bit shortsighted. the things that even average to below average users do with their computers today is years ahead of what was being done a few years ago. 7 years ago nobody would have imagined that basic computer users would be ripping their music cds onto their computer to transfer them to a digital music player. 10 years ago nobody thought that image manipulation would ever be within the ability or cost of normal home users. if you would have suggested 15 years ago that home users would be uploading, logging, editing and outputting movies from computers less than $700, people would have laughed out loud. the first AVID system i saw was in 1992. the preview window was about 150 pixels wide and it took an hour to render a preview for a 30 second commercial. no people edit minutes-long hd videos accompanied with soundtracks that include dissolves and effects.

the reason products like the foleo don't do well is because you don't save any money and you're limiting your options. sure most folks aren't going to sit down and cut a feature length movie or compose their own music, but they like to think that they have the resources to do so if they wish. buying a crippled machine for very little cost savings takes away a lot of the aspects of computing that people wish they could do with some learning and time. this is one of the basic tenets of apple's philosophy of including their bundles ilife suite. people will discover hidden talents when they have the resources available to them and can figure them out without having to read a huge book. the same philosophy is what drives microsoft's "the wow starts now" campaign. a product like the foleo will never be successful because the only people who would know about it or consider buying it are already tech-savvy. and those people certainly don't want something like the foleo. the people who might possible be suited for it can spend a little more and get a whole computer that does what the foleo does for them and has the possibility of doing much more. even if they don't use all of the functions, they'll still feel like they're getting the short end of the value stick by buying a foleo.

the fact that the foleo made it all the way through product development shows me that palm is doomed. i don't know how much time/money they spent on it, but it was too much. palm is drifting further and further away from what their customers want or need. i'd be surprised if they lasted more than a few years. more likely they'll just get bought out for their patent portfolio.

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

I said "small" not "low end". I'd kill for a clamshell or slider phone that runs Palm applications.

As for their product cycle, it hardly matters how long it is when nothing really new comes at the end of it.

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

Still haven't learned to use the shift key, I see. I realize that it slows you down. But that would give you extra time to think about what point you're trying to make, and maybe expressing it a little more concisely.

Re:What was the question?

[lordkuri]

I'd kill for a clamshell or slider phone that runs Palm applications.

http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?p=173

My ex-wife's address is.... ;-)

Re:What was the question?

[arth1]

That's a mostly insightful rant, but it's only got a couple of sentences about the Foleo. And that's a weak point -- they're basically saying nobody will buy the Foleo if the Treo sucks. Which is kind of dumb, since the Foleo isn't that tightly bound to the Treo.

Out of the box, yes it was. To quote the spiel:
"Foleo mobile companions work with Palm's Treo(TM) smartphones (Palm OS(R) and Windows Mobile(R) versions). However, Palm believes that most smartphones based on Windows Mobile should work with little or no modification. Smartphones based on operating systems from Research in Motion, Apple, and Symbian likely can be supported with a modest software effort."

That "little modification" and "modest software effort" would be beyond the average businessman. And, of course, their phones would have to support BlueTooth and not have BlueTooth crippled by their provider before even trying to get it to work... So in reality, we're back to a potential buyer group of Treo users, plus a handful of diehards and rich people who can afford to say "aw, shucks, doesn't work, in the basement you go".

What's flabbergasting is that it took so long before Palm killed off Fooleo. Almost all user groups predicted it would either be killed, or drag Palm down with it, and I have seen absolutely no support for Hawking's view that this was the best invention ever to come out of Palm. It was so blindingly obvious to everyone that this was a solution looking for a problem, and a bad one at that. When you can get full laptops for around $350, why would you want to spend $600 (less $100 initial mail in rebate, for those who qualified) for an ultra-slow laptop-looking device that can only do a small fraction of the things a laptop can do? And if small is your thing, the Foleo wasn't particularly small either -- bigger footprint than the new (and much cheaper) Asus models, but with a smaller screen and incredibly enough even less memory and slower CPU.

No, this was doomed from the start, and in this case, people are in their full right to tell Palm "we told you so". Because we did -- and not just a few of us either.

And, as Engadget said, "Small is sexy". Remember that, Palm. And remember how well the Palm V/Vx sold. It was small and sexy, and we luurved it! The replacements were clunkier and/or less sexy, and we didn't go for those. Simplicity and beauty in a small form factor is what you sold, and then forgot all about. The buyers didn't -- YOU did. There may still be time to do something, but the sand is running out as fast as the pennies on your budget, and you don't have much time left.

Regards,
--
*Art

Re:What was the question?

[Bin_jammin]

Functionality you don't use is still equity in the device. In two years time a laptop will hold more of its initial value than a phone or phone accessory. Or, put it simply, two years later, there's always plenty of people looking for a decent deal on a used laptop, how many people are looking for an internet enabled phone acessory?

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

I'd hate to bother your ex. I could probably pick on up on eBay. I'd hate to switch back to Sprint though.

There are some nice Palm-based clamshells for the Asian market. Problem is, they're all tri-band, since nobody there uses the 850 band. Now, I could probably live without the 850 band, but I don't know. Anybody know a way to detect what bands a GSM cell uses in a given area?

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

I have seen absolutely no support for Hawking's view that this was the best invention ever to come out of Palm.

I used to think highly of Hawkins, after hearing the story about him modeling the first Palm Pilot out of a block of wood. But then he started Handspring, and came out with some of the worst PDA designs ever. And why has he never intervened in the horrible button design for the Palm m Series? (If a button is designed to turn on the PDA, you don't want it sticking out so it gets pressed in your pocket!) I do believe his 15 minutes are up.

And remember how well the Palm V/Vx sold

The last really good product they did. I miss mine. I'm tempted to downgrade, except that not having a USB interface would be a major pain.

The early Palms were good because of all the stuff they left out. They did a few basic things, and did them very well, making them indispensable for their owners. Hard to make marketeers understand that. And maybe they're even right — feature bloat makes for a bad product, but it also makes for a product that's easier to sell.

Re:What was the question?

[scolbert]

I seriously think Palm is doomed and must sell itself fast. The Treo isn't that interesting in light of the Apple iPhone, meaning they can't complete in the high, high end (which they used to own) and must go lower, which RIMM owns. Doomed. Foleo was just a pet project to keep the original founder happy.

Re:What was the question?

[dgmartin98]

Telus in Canada still offers this Palm clamshell:

http://www.telusmobility.com/bc/pcs/kyocera_7135.s html

A friend of mine bought one, used it for a couple of years, then bought the Treo 650. The Kyocera is a little bulky, even for a Palm-based device.

Re:What was the question?

[gig]

> The big question with the Treo is whether there are enough people who need more than a PDA but less than a full laptop

No, the smartphone IS the new notebook. The notebook is the new desktop. The desktop is the new workstation. The Treo is just way behind the curve because it still doesn't have a Unix OS and Web 2.0 browser or a UI that works on a tiny screen. It was supposed to start being a real computer about 2-3 years ago.

Why buy a Core 2 Duo in a big white box when you can have it in a MacBook for $1100? Very few reasons.

Once you have an iPhone (or similar future competitor with Unix and Web 2.0 and zooming UI) you look at a PC, even a notebook, as a workstation. You use it to run Photoshop, you use it to make stuff, but you don't take it everywhere with you, you don't open it up to do email when you're on the road, you don't open it up to look up something in Google or get a map or refer to some notes. You only get the notebook out to do a real computing session, like an hour or more of real work.

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

Functionality you don't use is still equity in the device.

Electronic devices don't have "equity". Unlike real-estate, a cell phone does not increase in value. Rather the opposite. Any IT person will tell you that if you don't need functionality for 2 years, you wait two years to buy it, when it will cost less than half as much.

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

You're probably right about the notebook. (Or in my case the tablet. Except that just as I got used to having one desktop for everything, it decided it didn't want to talk to my external monitor any more. Anybody know anything about a bug in the Intel graphics chipset where external monitor functionality gradually disappears?) But the smart phone the new notebook? Not unless you never do anything with your notebook more complicated than email.

Rather than trying to shove old paradigms into new technology, industry needs to rethink the whole ball game. Instead of a smart phone, or even a regular cell phone. I want a wireless network node that never leaves my pocket (except when I change my pants). Everything else is done when a bluetooth device. You use a headset to make phone calls. (Hopefully one that you easily remove from your ear when you're not using it, so people don't snicker and yell "Resistance is futile!") You use simple Palm-like PDA, or maybe a watch-like device, for tracking personal information and to dial numbers for that headset. For serious work, you have a tablet or notebook in your briefcase, permanently networked via that node in your pocket.

Alas, such a setup is anathema to providers that prefer to sell "bundles". And probably most consumers prefer an all-in-one device, even if the device does no one thing very well. Resistance is futile.

Anyway, we agree on one thing: the Foleo concept was totally out of touch with realit.

Re:What was the question?

[phaggood]

> And people would rather pay a little extra and get all that extra functionality

Where are my damnedable mod points? Bartender! This guys next round is on me!

You'd think this would be marketing 101 - it's the reason schools and other bulk machine purchasers STILL buy ROI-eating desktops over thin clients, the thin clients aren't even HALF the cost of the desktops. No matter how 'green' you believe yourself to be, if the 300hp engine is only $50 more than the 150hp engine, the 2L coke is a 10c more than the 1/2 liter, the McD double cheeseburger is 4cents more than the *regular* cheeseburger, the 7/11 child slurpee is 25cents less (and 1/5 the size) of the 32oz slurpee, taking your family of four to a first-run movie will cost almost $40, but you can wait a month and BUY the DVD you might watch ONCE for $15 - what choice does the consumer make w/o feeling like an idiot?

Moderation is *not* rewarded in a consumerist society.

Re:What was the question?

[SixAndFiftyThree]

Warning: shameless plug coming: I've been happy with my Nokia N800. Cheaper than the Foleo was announced to be; not tied (even in imagination) to a Treo I don't want; a good fraction of laptop functionality but *wonderfully* portable; Linux, and some neat little apps available to fill in the details Nokia forgot. Downside: at my age, I need rather strong reading glasses to use it.

Re:What was the question?

[IHateEverybody]

The original Handspring Treos, the 180, 180g and 270, were also clamshells which while lighter than newer Treos were a lot clunkier and a lot more fragile than the Treo 600 and subsequent Treo models. By the time I upgraded to the Treo 600 (which has survived repeated drops onto concrete), my Treo 270's hinge had almost fallen off due to treatment which my Treo 600 routinely shrugs off. That experience has generally soured me on clamshells.

As for which bands GSM carriers use, T-Mobile appaears to only use the 850 band for roaming and includes a map of its coverage here.

Re:What was the question?

[IHateEverybody]

I have seen absolutely no support for Hawking's view that this was the best invention ever to come out of Palm.

I used to think highly of Hawkins, after hearing the story about him modeling the first Palm Pilot out of a block of wood. But then he started Handspring, and came out with some of the worst PDA designs ever. And why has he never intervened in the horrible button design for the Palm m Series? (If a button is designed to turn on the PDA, you don't want it sticking out so it gets pressed in your pocket!) I do believe his 15 minutes are up.

As someone who owned four Handspring Visors, I couldn't disagree with you more. The Visors may not have been small and pretty like the Palm V but they were fast, rugged, and cheaper than comparable Palm models. The Visor Edge, which was Handpsring's answer to the Palm V was every bit as attractive and elegant as the Palm V. Also, I'm pretty certain that the m series Palms were designed while Hawkins was at Handspring so it hardly seems fair to blame him for its failings.

I rather liked the concept of the Foleo even though I felt that it was under-specced and too expensive for what it was supposed to do. I'm disappointed to see it killed.

Re:What was the question?

[fm6]

As for which bands GSM carriers use, T-Mobile appaears to only use the 850 band for roaming and includes a map of its coverage here [t-mobile.com].

Uh, not useful: 850 is the band that's missing from tri-band phones. So if I get such a phone, I'll know not to try it with T-Mobile!

Re:What was the question?

[Anonymous Coward]

Monkey spunk.

They withdrew it because...

[jddj]

...it was an answer to a question that nobody asked. Unless the question was "WTF?"

Re:They withdrew it because...

[Anonymous Coward]

So was the computer itself. The altair was a useless piece of hardware, with no software to run it when it first came out.

Re:They withdrew it because...

[jddj]

Your point is well-taken, but doesn't match the context:

The Altair 8800 came out as a brand-new hobbyist project for electronics buffs, into an existing electronics hobby market that had never seen a digital-domain project so advanced (N.B. - I was a regular reader of Popular Electronics in my senior year of high school - when the Altair 8800 project was announced in a PE cover story). MITS was certainly shocked by the demand at the outset - I think they thought they were going to sell printed-circuit boards alone.

Palm's product added yet-another-OS to a market that has, frankly, too many (let's face it: there are probably even too many different Linux distros out there - and that's just Linux, never mind the cell phone and embedded markets, or even Palm's OWN OSes), added weight without adding the value of an open platform, added a less-capable sub-notebook to a market that has portable computing choices from 20" "laptop" computers to full PC-palmtops like the OQO, and more.

The Altair 8800 sold into a complete vacuum for products of its kind, but into an established market of electronics hobbyists waiting for something new and complex. The Palm Foleo opened the door to the portable-computer market and got blown back out from the atmospheric pressure in there.

Palm never really did explain what we were supposed to do with the thing. Carry it on the shoulder that's not currently supporting the Laptop bag? Try and find pants with pockets big enough to carry this thing PLUS the T|X or Treo PLUS the iPod? When I can check email and browse the web on my bigger laptop or my smaller PDA, why do I have this thing again?

Light at the end of the tunnel

[fishthegeek]

Hallelujah. I've all but given up hope that my Palm TX would not be the last of it's breed. I watched Hawkins debut the Foleo live and I felt a twisting in my stomach, sincerely fearing that Palm was committing suicide in a spectacularly dull fashion. There is not a market for the Foleo and there never was. This might be a sign that Palm execs have finally started to understand that 1997 is gone and will never return. I'm looking forward to the next rev of the Palm OS (read: brutal murder of Garnet). I'm looking forward to a device that has Skype built in and finally has an OS that doesn't crash, plays multimedia, has a decent browser and above all is a PDA not a phone. I hope that this is a sign and I wish Palm the best!

Re:Light at the end of the tunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

NOKIA N800!!! $350, wifi, bluetooth gprs/evdo, Skype, mplayer, DEBIAN BASED MAEMO LINUX. Who cares about Palm we have a great device from a great company already available...

Re:Light at the end of the tunnel

[fishthegeek]

The N800 is a great device for what it is and I don't want to take away from that, but I use a pda as a quick replacement for a laptop for those times when a laptop isn't convenient such as while sitting at a restaurant that doesn't have wifi. I don't want a device that is tied to the Internet to be functional. I live in a semi-rural state where wifi isn't as pervasive as San Fransisco.

As nice as the N800 is, it's is veritably useless apart from a wifi connection.

Re:Light at the end of the tunnel

[arth1]

The N800 is a great device for what it is and I don't want to take away from that, but I use a pda as a quick replacement for a laptop for those times when a laptop isn't convenient such as while sitting at a restaurant that doesn't have wifi. I don't want a device that is tied to the Internet to be functional. I live in a semi-rural state where wifi isn't as pervasive as San Fransisco.

I use a PDA too, but one with WiFi for use where WiFi is available, and BlueTooth for when it isn't (Clie UX-50). And unlike the Foleo, I can read and reply to my e-mails directly through WiFi or Bluetooth or USB, and not just sync it with a cell phone Inbox. Multiple e-mail accounts is no problems either, and using IMAP, I can keep gigabytes of emails available on the server, and not be limited to the phone's memory for the Inbox, like with the Foleo.
That it fits in my shirt pocket is a big reason why I carry my PDA with me at all times.
My laptop is nice for when I've planned to go somewhere -- it's not something I always carry with me. And a Foleo couldn't have been that either, simply because it's too big and heavy.

What the Foleo really was, was a keyboard and screen in a laptop form factor that would allow you to access a small subset of what your phone and PDA already could do, on a bigger screen. I don't think anyone at Palm seriously thought this could become a seller, but were simply spit-shining Jeff Hawkins' shoes as good yes-men do, since he had the delusion that it was his greatest invention ever. I'm just surprised that Jeff Hawkins didn't realise the truth himself, or that CEO Ed Colligan didn't blow on the house of cards earlier.

Some safeguards should be put in place so this can not happen again. Firing Hawkins (or more likely retiring him with a bonus and lots of thanks) isn't unlikely now, but won't resolve anything. The culture within Palm must be rotten, and those without guts to say "Sorry, Jeff, but that's plain stupid" even after all the fan sites pointed it out are the real people to blame here.

Re:Light at the end of the tunnel

[seebs]

I don't think they'll ever do another non-phone.

Which makes me sad, too. The T|X is okay, but it shouldn't be the best they can do.

Re:Light at the end of the tunnel

[robin.com.au]

How about the Nokia N800?

Re:Light at the end of the tunnel

[Anonymous Coward]

Not so. I have a full suite of contact, calendaring, to-do and 'PDA'-type applications on my N800. I use it all the time when I am not in wi-fi range. Try looking at the apps that are available on maemo.org. You might be surprised what a N800 can do. This coming from a longtime Palm user. (Who would still like a palm emulation enviroment that is stable on the N800 - any superhackers want to take this on?)

Fellateo?

[Gothmolly]

What about that one ?

Re:Fellateo?

[Anonymous Coward]

That rumored product would have required a Duo processor. But the Palm brand is clearly strongly with Solo processor uses.

Re:Fellateo?

[Anonymous Coward]

At least, that one wouldn't suffer from early withdraws.

What's the big deal ?

[Anonymous Coward]

They put a microprocessor in a box. That's been done dozens if not hundreds of times before. I just don't get it.

What I want from Palm

[jmorris42]

Palm should return to what they knew how to do well once upon a time. Build insanely great personal organizers. It isn't the 1990's anymore and it doesn't HAVE to be a cellphone, we have bluetooth now. Bundling a PDA with a cellphone sounds like a great idea, but it isn't. They operate on two totally different replacement cycles, cellphones (in the US) are tied to the carrier, requiring you to buy from the subset of products your carrier decides to carry. Cell phones have the WRONG FORM FACTOR. Jeff, go back to your blocks of wood and realize the problem and maybe a solution.

Once you make that jump, something like the Folio is at least possible to think about. A big PDA for the DayRunner set that links via Bluetooth or WiFi and offers a stable platform for the road warrier who doesn't need to worry about problems with Windows and can live with a mostly browser based existence except for the vital PDA data and vertical apps kept locally.

And personally I wouldn't trade month long battery runtimes for 'multimedia clips.' A big Folio sized gadget should do it because it needs a Li-Ion battery and a daily charge anyway, but offer at least one handheld that ISN'T an iPod wannabee. These days you could sell a totally kick ass "Palm" for under a hundred dollars. There is a whole untapped market there just waiting.

Re:What I want from Palm

[Zelos]

I doubt that's really a good idea, sales of PDAs have been dropping like a stone for years now.

What I'd like too see...

[Kaenneth]

1. Google (or someone else nice) wins spectrum auction, and provides an open wireless based server platform. Such that someone can write a service application and can host it themselves, or have it be hosted by Google so it executes in the datacenter nearest the client, using a simple server-side API.

2. Palm provides a open wireless client platform, with a simple API, the ability to run Java and/or .NET/Mono programs that are wireless 'aware' (Battery life, intermittent connection, small screen size, GPS, etc.)

3. that 1 and 2 work together...

Getting web pages on a mobile device is nice, but I want to be able to not only create my own applications, but servers as well. You might be able to unlock an iPhone to work with another service, but do other services work with the iPhone?

Custom traffic maps rendered from traffic sensor data; traffic sensors which themselves could use the wireless... which then notifies you based on your current location, that if you don't leave in 10 minutes, you'll be late for an appointment.

Someone tells you about a cool new show, so you browse TV schedules, then set your DVR to record it remotely... then trickle it to your handheld in the background and watch it.

You can do a lot of that with existing web-server based tools, but sometimes a custom application that's aware of the mobile hardware could be amazingly useful, particularly if it needs to respond to 'events', not just while the page is loaded.

Nokia N800

[Gunark]

Who cares. I'm loving my Linux-based Nokia N800.

Re:Nokia N800

[Anonymous Coward]

N800 rocks. Definitely the best UMPC at anywhere near the price point, at the moment.

Closest thing I've seen to it in functionality was 3X the weight, 3X the volume, and 3X the price. Oh, and couldn't fit into my shirt pocket.

Re:Nokia N800

[PCM2]

Who cares. I'm loving my Linux-based Nokia N800.

Well, I certainly hope you suffer a better fate than me and my Nokia 770. Nokia pretty much disavowed all support for my gadget as soon as the N800 was rolling off the assembly line. Not long after that, the WiFi stopped working, rendering the whole debate about whether the world is ready for an "Internet tablet" rather moot. It still makes a pretty decent eBook reader (albeit with the worst battery in history) but not much else. After this experience, it's going to be hard for me to disassociate "Nokia" from "crap" in my mind.

Re: Nokia N800

[sailor164]

What about thhe Nokia N800. Great little computer. Love it.

Re: Nokia N800

[fm6]

That one is different enough from a laptop (can't put a laptop in your pocket!) that the "for a few bucks more" rule doesn't apply. So maybe it will succeed, especially since it actually has a decent battery life, unlike its predecessor, the 770.

I didn't mean to imply that it was impossible to sell new kinds of internet gizmos. All you need to do is find a need that isn't covered by an existing gizmo. It's when you try to compete directly with the PC and laptop that you get into trouble.

I think I like my Blackberry better

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.umpcportal.com/products/

The link above lists a bunch of similar products. The ones that are actually available seem to cost around >$1000. The battery life is not stellar for those whose battery life is listed.

A full sized laptop is cheaper and better performing. Most of the products listed won't fit in your pocket. Something like a Blackberry is cheaper and has better battery life. Thumb typing on the Blackberry seems to be less of a problem than the qwerty keyboards on most of these product.

I'm struggling for a reason why I would want any of them. They seem to hit just the wrong place between the Blackberry and a real laptop without giving any particular advantage over either. The word kludge comes to mind.

How many devices do you want to drag around?

[swb]

I'll agree that I don't get the trend towards making a fcsking iPod (errm, music player) out of every bit of electronics, but I do appreciate the phone/PDA hybrid and appreciate the fact I don't need two devices.

I also appreciate the massive overlap -- a PDA is orders of magnitudes more useful if it can communicate with the internet (email, sync, etc) and a phone is orders of magnitude more useful if it organizes phone numbers and contact information. Bluetooth linking doesn't cut it and its not worth the inevitable bullshoot and reliability problems that it would come with it. I love my BT headset and mouse, but the rest of it has been more hassle than carrying an 8" USB cable in my laptop bag.

I do like the sub-sub-notebook ("paperback"?) form factor, but its not truly useful without good 3G or better networking, and phone tethering while useful doesn't cut it.

What we really need is a CF-card sized "phone module" we can move between various devices (phone, notebook, PDA, etc) that gives them network access without creating a hardware dependency (eg, the phone handset/carrier tie-in) AND a much-better-than-bluetooth wireless standard that provides more robust and higher speed connectivity.

Re:How many devices do you want to drag around?

[andrewguy9]

Before June I would carry around my laptop cell phone and iPod. Now I just carry my iPhone, however I do miss the larger screen on my laptop! I hoped the foleo would enable me to use Bluetooth to extend my smart phone's EDGE to my other devices. Thats somthing I would really use! Why are all of thee ip and Bluetooth devices getting synced bough USB!!! The iPhone outlook sync is just bad. I wish I could look up directions on my phone, hop in the car, open my laptop and have the map staring back at me. Tight integration was the point of the foleo, and I'm afraid it is the real casulty of this news.

Re:How many devices do you want to drag around?

[Kenshin]

What we really need is a CF-card sized "phone module" we can move between various devices...

Well, if North America had standardised on GSM, the answer would be simple: a SIM chip.

But, that's another argument for another time.

Re:How many devices do you want to drag around?

[Fnkmaster]

All I want is a Treo that isn't 2 inches thick, has wifi support, and a web browsing experience that's not straight out of 2001 (i.e. opens PDFs easily, supports video and audio content transparently, and supports at least basic dynamic HTML stuff).

They have had 6 or 7 years now and haven't made an ounce of progress with the PalmOS platform. I guess there is supposedly a native PDF viewer now which I could dredge up and set up on my Treo 650. I've never had any luck with video content, and generally find browsing with Blazer to be a miserable, frustrating experience.

What keeps me on Treo is Chattermail, which is the best mobile email app I've seen on any platform, and the fact that it's a platform with tons of third party app support so you can find something to do anything. And not a kludgy piece of shit like Windows Mobile.

Re:How many devices do you want to drag around?

[IHateEverybody]

The newest version of Documents to Go has a built-in PDF viewer and yes, there is a native PDF viewer which you can find for free on the 'net. As for video TCPMP, Kinoma, and Coreplayer should all work on your Treo 650. As for Blazer, yeah it sucks but if you stick to wireless optimized sites, you should have better luck.

Bwahahahaha!

[Gavin Scott]

As I wrote here when they announced it:

It seems that almost all gadgets introduced as being a "new class" of device can be found a year later being sold by the pallet-load at bay area surplus and auction places. A year from now we can go in together on a lot of 100 of them for $1 each :)

The only question now is whether they show up at Weird Stuff Warehouse or BDI :-)

Seriously, this might be the most embarrassing product announcement I've ever seen.

G.

Re:Bwahahahaha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Your prophecy... ahh.. didn't, ummm... come true.

Re:Bwahahahaha!

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, this might be the most embarrassing product announcement I've ever seen.

How quickly they forget the brown Zune.

i just got a fujitusu fmv-u8240 ... running linux

[Anonymous Coward]

a umpc, 800mhz cpu (feels like a 1.2 ghz cpu oddly in terms of performance), nice keyboard, touchscreen, notepad swivel screen, lots of extras.

it's running ubuntu gutsy gibbon with everything working out of the box (plus minor configuration) (except for the thumbprint scanner), why the hell would i buy something like the foleo?

as hardware becomes more powerfull and smaller in form factor it pushes lower the special case interfaces and environments like qtopia and wince ... there is just no need for them because a full desktop works fantastic on these things and the inertia behind these platforms is simply overwhelming..

therefore, if you come up with a device that doesn't offer all the bells and whistles you are REALLY going to haveto find another angle for selling these things, and there aren't that many in a commodity marketplace.

Re:Tor like oatmeals!

[Anonymous Coward]

Beer Good!!
Windows Bad!!

Very clever approach

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Release details of a proposed product. Watch for reactions. See poor reactions and shelve product.

Way, way, cheaper than taking it all the way to market.

Still, I think the recipe was almost right. I have an (unfortunately broken) Psion 7. Very handy machine in its day: instant on, reasonably fast. Light... Give it a freshen up with a faster CPU, Wifi,... and you'd have a vry useful device.

Re:Very clever approach

[Anonymous Coward]

Release details of a proposed product. Watch for reactions. See poor reactions and shelve product.
Way, way, cheaper than taking it all the way to market.

According to TFA, Palm took a $10 million hit due to this. Now I know that this is big business and they run on scales which most of us can't comprehend. But if you consider that cheap, I don't want to know what you consider expensive...

Re:Very clever approach

[yada21]

Palm took a $10 million hit due to this. (Snip) But if you consider that cheap, I don't want to know what you consider expensive...

Wild guess - $11 Million?

Re:Very clever approach

[reed]

Get a Palm TX.

Only problem is that it looks like PalmOS/Garnet is basically EOL. And it's also not a sure thing that Palm will be coming out with any new PDA-sized computers (like the TX) with an updated OS, but will either just keep making expensive smartphones, or weird crap like the Foleo.

My Nokia N800 replaced my Palm PDAs

[Anonymous Coward]

The Palm OS was EXCELLENT, for a PDA. The hardware SUCKS. I'm writing apps for my nice little Debian-based Linux portable, AKA my Nokia N800, to replace it.

I have gone through quite a few Palm PDAs, including a Palm III, a Palm V, 2 Palm Vx units, a Palm m505, a Zire 22, and 4 Tungsten T|X units. I had 4 T|Xs because the screen digitizer kept failing, so Palm kept having to replace it under warranty. The glue holding the V/Vx cases kept failing, and the motherboard died on one Vx. I got tired of every single device having a different proprietary cradle and charger. I got tired of the previous generation being totally orphaned so that you could no longer find accessories or get repairs. I also got tired of buying hardcases which then disintegrated when the glue failed. Each generation had less battery lifetime, so that I started out with two weeks between charges on my Palm III and finished where I had better not forget to charge my T|X every single night. I love the operating system and user interface, but the hardware is a dismal failure.

Finally my last T|X started rebooting every time I tried to use the wi-fi. That was the last straw. I managed to get one last backup out of it.

The problem is that the Palm to-do list and calendar runs my life and rules my world. I bought an app called PocketMoney and made it a habit to immediately record groceries, gas, lunch, etc. in it, and it has literally kept me from making debit card overdrafts since 2002, when I used to make 3 or 4 a month. Washington Mutual's stock went down when I bought a Palm. I keep all my passwords in there. I write stuff down that I do only once a year and which takes 3 days to rediscover, so that when I go "how do I do..." I can look it up on my PDA. I use HanDbase to track the contents of my parts boxes, tool boxes, and book collection, and to remind me of local restaurants. I use Jpilot and I wrote my own daemon to do wi-fi hotsyncing on Linux so I can easily back it up every day with one button press. It plays a big part in keeping my daily life on track.

So I had to find a replacement. I use Linux so a WinCE/Mobile Windows unit was right out, because it's impossible to sync the data and back it up on anything but a Windows machine. I drooled over the Nokia 770 "internet tablet" for ages, but it didn't seem "programmable" or developer-friendly, and I had no idea what an "internet tablet" was supposed to do for you. Finally the Nokia 800 came out and I discovered you could run Python on it so I bought one. It turns out that you can easily write nice user interfaces with pyGTK if you take a little care to respect the limits of the CPU.

One other nice thing I discovered is that the built-in Opera browser is capable of handling my bank's website, the RoadRunner webmail page, and the Oracle Collabsuite email system at work. The Palm T|X web browser failed with all of these.

For me, my N800 is my "very tiny Linux laptop that fits in my pocket" and goes with me on my motorcycle and other places where I wouldn't carry a regular laptop.

Re:My Nokia N800 replaced my Palm PDAs

[Yoozer]

That was a touching story :).

I've only had one Palm - the Tungsten E. I used it to death - first thing to die after 2 years was the connection with the charger (the little pin broke and it's impossible to fix). No problem, just use USB trickle charge.

After that, the power button. The 4 buttons on the front will however switch the machine on and I'd let it go to sleep after 30 seconds. Not exactly efficient, but hey.

After that, the battery. Its charge would last 1.5 days at the very most.

I too wrote lots of useful stuff and quick ideas in my T|E - melodies and ideas for music, musings, phone numbers, directions and all that. I hated the sync software; the only thing I've used it for is uploading eBooks (which is another nice thing to have) using Plucker (which was awesome and would've been even more awesome with a slightly improved font and white text on black background).

Then, before I went on a holiday this year I did a manual backup - I wrote all the stuff in my Google Documents account. I deleted the notes I took. I charged it one last time, and left it powered off.

Apparently, in those 2 weeks something went wrong. I came back home, tried to power it up - the screen flashed once, and then it was dead for good. I panicked; I hadn't backed up my memos, but the last backup wrote the files to the harddisk and using a hex editor I could extract what I typed in there - passwords, ex-girlfriends, some phone numbers and CDs.

I now have a HTC Vox (Orange 650 smartphone with Windows Mobile 6). I dislike the fact that the applications can't close properly, but now I can read my eBooks directly as HTML files (Baen Free Library), the font looks better (240 pixels but the amount of text is the same due to a better font with anti-aliasing), and I can browse properly with it which the T|E lacked completely.

I'm interested in the Eee as a quick note-taking utility of sorts; I hope it's got a decent screen, then it may become my new eReader :).

Afraid of getting squished by Microsoft again?

[shanen]

Dang. I was really hoping Palm could come back with something good.

Should I again rant about the essential badness of Windows Mobile against Palm? Seems as pointless as trying to figure out whether or not Microsoft is still losing money in that tactical niche. I was forced to switch to Windows Mobile a while ago--but it sure seems like forever.

Thanks for the heads-up on the Asus Eee PC

[RobertinXinyang]

Thanks for the heads-up on the Asus Eee PC. I have been looking for a "modern Tandy 100" for some time. I just want small, light, cheap and able to do simple writing and spreadsheet. I do not want a game machine. As far as formatting, I can do that later on an apple when I get back. I just want something for field notes. This looks like it may be it

Re:Thanks for the heads-up on the Asus Eee PC

[soupforare]

You might want to look at the Alphasmart Dana. I've got mine because I wanted the same modern T100.
Runs PalmOS4, can talk to printers and (some)wifi dongles. Some models have internal wifi. Battery life is huge when you're not using wireless. Takes internal rechargeable or AAs. Can recharge over USB or DC in. The only thing I wish it had was serial support but you can't have everything.

I will probably be looking at picking up an eee for different reasons, though.

I wouldn't touch that with my barge pole....

[EmbeddedJanitor]

[lameness filter bypass text]

hmm, you seem hard to please.

[Erris]

Palm needs a new OS. Palm OS is looking so long in the tooth it's ridiculous.

So, what OS would you propose if it's not the one they just developed for Folio or Palm or the me too Windoze mobile?

Re:hmm, you seem hard to please.

[Fnkmaster]

I don't really care, but I'd prefer something Linux based. Or other Unixy OS. The core scarcely matters, the innovation isn't in making a kernel that runs on a moderately limited handheld device, it's in a user interface, applications and email/web browsing experience that is compelling, powerful and usable. You know, like Apple did with the iPhone, only not have it be a closed platform with shitty email support.

you seem uninformed

[Anonymous Coward]

Symbian/S60, for one. VxWorks. Nucleus RTOS. eCos. Inferno. FreeRTOS, which is licensed under the GPL.

Take your pick.

"Windoze", that's rich.

You're welcome.

Re:you seem uninformed

[Anonymous Coward]

Would you run any of these on a PC?

You have to realize that today's modern "embedded devices" and mobile phones have enough resources to run a real operating system.

You seem to be afraid to mention Linux.
Why exactly are you stuck on a RT OS?

Using a stripped down OS could help make up form low memory or processor.
But when those parts come down in price, you would realize that painting yourself into a corner with some POS OS like Nucleus was not a good idea.

Good night and good luck.

Ever carry a desktop replacement every day?

[DingerX]

People want PCs for a range of reasons. If they don't want to play the latest games, they don't buy a fancy video card; and if they aren't particularly interested in A/V, they don't spend the money on the best experience.

Personal computing is moving away from the good old days of the 8086, and sitting at a desk to do "Lean-in" applications only. Now, in addition to the old-skool word processing, spreadsheets, heavy data lifting tasks, we're using computers at the core of our entertainment systems and for our basic communications. Frankly, for communications, entertainment, and "on-site data entry", my 5-kilo desktop replacement is overkill. I would gladly trade power for weight (and size).

What made the Foleo inherently stupid was its reliance on the smartphone. Smartphones are cool and all that, but either they fulfill your portable comms and entertainment needs, or they don't. If they do, you're not going buy anything else to lug around. If they don't, you're not going to buy the smartphone, so forget about any costly addons.

The Eee, on the other hand, has the potential to be a winner. If they can deliver them really cheap (which has yet to be seen), then it's the ultimate satellite PC for a home network.

And somebody please explain why I shouldn't buy the n800...

Re:Ever carry a desktop replacement every day?

[harrkev]

The Eee, on the other hand, has the potential to be a winner. If they can deliver them really cheap (which has yet to be seen), then it's the ultimate satellite PC for a home network.

The Eee is looking to be something of a train wreck in the happening. Of course, it is not released yet, so nothing is certain untill the first customers get one in their hands, but things are not looking as bright as they once were according to the rumors flying around.

Asus initially stated that a unit with 512 MB RAM and 2GB Flash (hard drive replacement) was going to be around $200, with better specs for more money. This was only about three months ago.

Now, $230 is supposed to get you 256MB / 2GB. If you actually want the 512MB / 4Gb that they initially promised, that will cost you $400 (only about a 100% increase in price in three months). Nothing is finalized yet, but these are the advance numbers being quoted by Asus dealers.

Re:Ever carry a desktop replacement every day?

[Doctor Memory]

Now, $230 is supposed to get you 256MB / 2GB And wasn't there supposed to be a version with a 10" screen? I've seen the prices hike up, but I haven't seen a 10" screen mentioned since the first articles came out. I was all set to buy one (hell, for the $299 [IIRC] they were quoting for it, I'd have bought two!), and I'd probably spend up to US$350 on it, but they seem to have quietly dropped that model. Another victim of the "Specifications subject to change without notice" clause, I guess.

Re:Ever carry a desktop replacement every day?

[i.r.id10t]

And somebody please explain why I shouldn't buy the n800...

Only reason I can think of is I'll get jealous.... but I love my 770 :)

Re:Ever carry a desktop replacement every day?

[DingerX]

Heck, just today, they went ahead and osborned the first-generation Eee PC. The Eee is definitely a "hold" until next summer at the earliest.

Re:Ever carry a desktop replacement every day?

[IHateEverybody]

What made the Foleo inherently stupid was its reliance on the smartphone. Smartphones are cool and all that, but either they fulfill your portable comms and entertainment needs, or they don't. If they do, you're not going buy anything else to lug around. If they don't, you're not going to buy the smartphone, so forget about any costly addons.

The Eee, on the other hand, has the potential to be a winner. If they can deliver them really cheap (which has yet to be seen), then it's the ultimate satellite PC for a home network.

And somebody please explain why I shouldn't buy the n800...

The only thing the Foleo relied on the smartphone for was e-mail and wireless access. And since it had wi-fi, the Foleo only needed the smartphone's wireless access was when it was away from a hotspot. Despite Palm's insistence on pigeon-holing it as a smartphone add-on, the Foleo was a full-fledged computer in its own right. If it hadn't been so expensive, the Foleo would have been a very good alternative to a low end notebook PC.

I like the Eee but they seen to be gradually raising the price as they come closer to releasing it. Hopefully it will be "the ultimate satellite PC for a home network" because there's a real need for such a device.

The n800? Not that I've used it myself but common complaints are that it's slow, buggy, and has a crappy web browser. I get the impression that you're better off just getting an iPhone -- especially now that Apple has dropped the price.

I know what I want

[OrangeTide]

a Psion 5mx/Revo (aka Diamond Mako) with SD memory, WiFi, Linux and the possibility of future versions being a SmartPhone. I love those Psion keyboards and that it folded to be flat enough to fit in my pocket with its rounded edges. Also I liked that it was fairly affordable (at least the Mako). I'm pretty much tired of seeing $500 pdas, I'm more into the sub-$200 range, and would really like to see something small and simple for under $100. Let's get back to the basics instead of constantly adding MHZ and RAM and reducing the battery life. I would much rather keep the same MHZ as we move forward and continuously increase the battery life.

Software, like a gas, just expands to fill all available space anyways. Gives those programmers faster cpus and more RAM and it will still take half a second to respond to your actions and several seconds to load anything.

obviously the market disagrees with me what makes a good portable computer. I also wonder why a Palm has a massively more powerful CPU than my TI-85 but the calculator on the Palm totally sucks. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks that everyone should have a solver in their pocket.

Re:I know what I want

[sacrilicious]

You might find the Nokia 9300 (and it's bigger cousin the 9500) fun... they're simbian based, i.e. descended directly from the Psion lineage complete with app buttons and (for a pda) a great keyboard. I was a Psion series 3A fan way back in 94 and missed the hell out of it when it disappeared from the market; the Nokia 9300 has really been like going home. :)

Re:I know what I want

[ms139us]

As another poster mentioned, check out the 9300, 9500 or the new E90.

My first PDA was a Psion Series 5, followed my a 5mx, Series 7, netBook, 9290 and currently a 9500 (which I am posting from now). I got addicted to QWERTY keyboards and could never go back,

Right now a 9500 or 9300 can be had for pretty cheap and work with any GSM carrier.

Why crank out worse quicker?

[SuperKendall]

Their biggest problem is that their product cycle is way too long.

That wouldn't be a problem at all if the products very very desireable at the start of the cycle, much less the end - Palm's problem is not one of needing more incremental Treos, but a fresh design! Which in fact was why I never bought a Treo even though I almost pulled the trigger many years running.

Forget the iPhone, they need a refresh of thinking just to keep ahead of other smartphone makers! I can't even remember when the last time was I saw someone with a Treo, instead of an 8525 or a Blackberry.

Has to be a phone

[SuperKendall]

It isn't the 1990's anymore and it doesn't HAVE to be a cellphone

In the 90's it didn't have to be a cellphone.

Now if you have an organizer, phones have just enough organizer abilities that it's hard to overcome something a user already has by nessesity (phone) to get them to buy something they are not sure if they need (more advanced organizer). So I'm afraid to sell anything broadly, a phone has to be part of the deal.

However, I agreee with this statement:

Build insanely great personal organizers.

Yes it has to be a phone. But keep focus and make it primarily an insanely great personal organizer. I haven't seen that from Palm since the Palm V, when they were firing on all cylenders and before the OS design people went to cryo storage (yeah, I know the OS was sold).

Perhaps the Linux refresh they are working on will be a true update worthy of the Palm heritage.

Light, Cheap, with a separate pocket size keyboard

[Rasta_the_far_Ian]

I use a Palm TX with a pocket sized infrared keyboard for taking notes at the library. The TX has the largest screen on a (pocket sized!) PDA that I could find, making reading text based ebooks (Project Gutenberg) easy; the separate, foldable, pocket sized keyboard makes typing at an acceptable speed possible. I used to carry a laptop everytime I went to the library, but hardly ever do anymore.

I really don't care for Palm's operating system - my ideal would be something more like a folder structure allowing one to take text notes, etc. I don't like the limitations that Palm's operating system puts on me. Simple text entry would allow me to write notes as I need them, and even format them using something like DocUtils to autogenerate formatted notes.

Unfortunately, the industry seems to have gotten the idiotic notion that a cell phone with a tiny screen is a better PDA for me than the PDAs that were available a couple of years ago.

How can one believe that a camera or MP3 playing capabilities on a cell phone somehow make up for not being able to take notes or read an ebook on a decent PDA!

Re:Very stupid approach

[gig]

> Release details of a proposed product. Watch for reactions. See poor reactions and shelve product.

Look like incredible fools in front of the whole frickin' world.

Show your very poor hand to everyone so there's no need to bluff anymore.

Associate your brand with outrageous failure.

My iPhone is so good all by itself that I don't even go into the next room to do an email or look up a Web page. Palm should have spent time creating the iPhone first instead of apologizing for the Treo with the Folio. I can remember the demand for an "Apple PDA" back in 1999 and Apple didn't deliver on that for 8 years. An 8 year head start for Palm and the iPhone caught them flat-footed. Three months before the iPhone announcement Palm said don't look for anything special from Apple, smartphones are HARD, it will take Apple many years of trying to make something "decent". Way to have your head up your ass.

The fact that Palm is fucking around with shit like this when they have yet to even put a Unix core OS and Web 2.0 browser on their smartphone is pretty incredible. That's the Internet and the Web, two little trends that most people think are here to stay.

Heavy phone, even for Treo case

[dgmartin98]

I bought the Treo 650 about 3 years ago, along with a case, made by Palm. The case had a little snap to keep the phone in, vertically, but the whole case rotated on its clip.

So the phone could be right-side up, but unintentionally rotates itself upside-down, holding on for dear-life by a single button. The button came undone about 2 or 3 times within a month, dumping the phone on the floor each time. Finally, I'm out for a walk outside, and the phone must have rotated without me knowing, button comes undone, and the phone splatters on the pavement, battery goes flying, pen goes one way, battery cover goes another, and the screen gets scarred.

PALM - SELL QUALITY ACCESSORIES !!! Don't Cheap out the accessories to the lowest-bidding subcontractor!!! I paid $40 for a piece of crap Palm-branded case.

Now I have a permanently upright case that doesn't rotate, but the size of the phone plus the case is huge !

Its been said already...

[ravyne]

but I'll say it again.

There's no sense in bringing the Foleo to market when its up to 3 times the price of Asus's EEE and less than half a machine. As much as I like the idea of computing devices on less-typical architectures like ARM, MIPS or PowerPC, I can't foot that bill in the face of superior and cheaper x86 based technology. It just doesn't make sense.

I'm sure they thought that they *really* had something before they revealed it. I'm also sure that they crapped themselves the minute the EEE and VIA's competitor was announced.

size, weight

[misanthrope101]

Many people want a functional linux-based computer that is smaller/lighter than a laptop. The Nokia N800 internet tablet is a good example. Small, light, and runs linux -- there is even a TeX/LaTeX distribution for it. If I'm traveling the world with a backpack, I'd rather have the N800 and a bluetooth keyboard than a laptop.

Something doesn't have to be a huge market-redefining, ipod-magnitude product to find a following. Not everything has to change the world and get 90% market saturation just to be called a success. I hope the N800 has a phone-enabled successor, and that other models follow. I also hope that Palm releases a Linux-based Treo. Small if good, even if you personally wouldn't find a use for it.

Re:size, weight

[R_Dorothy]

I find the N800/Bluetooth KB combo is a winner. Mine has taken over 90% of what I used to use my Laptop for (time wise, not functionality) whilst simultaneously doing a much better job of diary/notebook/media player than either of my Palms ever did. Having been a Psion S3/5 user this is the first thing I've come across that is anywhere near as good - if not better.

Re:size, weight

[NDPTAL85]

"Something doesn't have to be a huge market-redefining, ipod-magnitude product to find a following. Not everything has to change the world and get 90% market saturation just to be called a success."

You are right. But it doesn't hurt to have that kind of success either.

Also seeing as how the iPhone runs OS X you could run most if not all of your mobile Linux apps on it as well. That leaves the reason to go with the Nokia being GPL/political reasons and possibly any hardware advantages the Nokia may have over the iPhone.

Re:size, weight

[fm6]

First off, Linux doesn't enter the equation. No non-geek cares what OS is embedded in their devices. Even geeks shouldn't really care unless the device in question is reasonably hackable. Which they're usually not.

And TeX? That's a niche within a niche! Unless you're composing scientific documents (if you're just reading them, convert them to PDF), you shouldn't bother with it. And even if you are composing such documents, you need to think about switching to a modern markup language.

I too would rather have something like a Nokia tablet. (My Motion Computing tablet is pretty small, but I'd trade it in for a Nokia tomorrow if it had anything like the same functionality.) But you and I are not typical consumers.

And yes, you don't need 90% of the market to be successful. But you do need enough to claim a loyal customer base for ongoing sales and to justify developing improved products. And so far, in between devices just haven't come close.

Re:size, weight

[misanthrope101]

Sony has a little tablet computer, whose name I'm not going to bother looking up. Sharp has the Zaurus. The Nokia N800 I've already mentioned. The smartphone market is growing somewhat. Linux is relevant because of the pre-existing unix apps, to include all those old things like grep, sed, etc. If you don't like the Unix thing then you aren't going to see why a small handheld unix-ish computer is very very cool. I don't begrudge you your difference of opinion, so don't begrudge me mine.

And please don't tell me what I should want. I like LaTeX for typesetting, whether it be poetry, random musings, whatever. You don't have to consider it modern for it to work--if it works and is stable, why abandon it? I prefer LaTeX output to plain text, or HTML, OpenOffice, etc. What you use is your business. I wasn't demanding that someone create what I want/need, only pointing out that people sometimes want/need things that you yourself might not. The fact that companies are making small Linux-based computers indicates that there is a demand, even if the reasons some geeks are buying them aren't the same ones the company had for making them.

Re:size, weight

[fm6]

...please don't tell me what I should want...

We're not talking about what you want. We're talking about what the marketplace wants. It's interesting how few geeks seem to understand the distinction.

Re:size, weight

[misanthrope101]

I am a component of that marketplace, cupcake. At no time have I entertained delusions of swaying the market to my whims. I'm just saying that I'm glad they make product x, and that I hope the market produces more along those lines. Obviously if they don't make it I won't buy it. I'm not one of those who rail and rant as if there is a conspiracy against me. My point, and only point, is that some people do indeed want something smaller than a laptop but larger than a PDA. The fact that I exist and I want something with those qualities proves my point sufficiently. I never said that it would be insanely profitable, or that development would continue. Saying "some people want this" when some people do, in fact, want this, should not be too controversial of a statement.

Re:size, weight

[fm6]

So, we're having different conversations on the same thread. I was here first, so I get to call "offtopic".

The problem with the Foleo is its price

[DrXym]

A superlight and cheap laptop is a fantastic idea. Give a device a keyboard, a usable screen, word processor, spreadsheet, email, browser etc. and it's more than adequate for short breaks, camping, coffee shops, lectures etc. A commercialized version of the OLPC will sell by the shitload which is why Quanta / ASUS & VIA all have plans to make them.

This is the Foleo's problem. It's too expensive to compete with the impending supercheap portables and it's encroaching into the price territory of more able laptops. It's just too expensive.

It doesn't even hold up well in a feature comparison. The supercheap laptops will likely be bundled with Linux and software like OpenOffice which is pretty damned impressive. What's the Foleo going to have? Probably some proprietary software which feels primitive and feature light.

It's also being marketed all wrong. It's being sold as a "mobile companion" for your smartphone. Phrases like that do not inspire confidence in the device. The Foleo had flop written all over it, so hopefully Palm are going to take stock and produce something more useful.

Re:The problem with the Foleo is its price

[IHateEverybody]

It doesn't even hold up well in a feature comparison. The supercheap laptops will likely be bundled with Linux and software like OpenOffice which is pretty damned impressive. What's the Foleo going to have? Probably some proprietary software which feels primitive and feature light.

It's also being marketed all wrong. It's being sold as a "mobile companion" for your smartphone. Phrases like that do not inspire confidence in the device. The Foleo had flop written all over it, so hopefully Palm are going to take stock and produce something more useful.

Actually, the Foleo's OS was based on Linux just like all the supercheap laptops. It didn't have OpenOffice but it did have Documents to Go and the Opera web browser.

I agree with you about the marketing. If the Foleo was going to succeed, it would have to be able to serve as a laptop alternative. Calling it a "Mobile Companion" for your smartphone, sets the bar to low for a $600 device.

Re:Very stupid approach

[iamacat]

Your iPhone is so good that it can not do what PalmPilot could 10 years ago - run a simple custom application or game. There are many valid criticisms of Treo, but Apple should also have learned more in those 8 years.

Or perhaps Ted Ts'o killed it?

[Anonymous Coward]

In his Thoughts about the Palm Foleo post kernel hacker extraordinaire Ted Ts'o critiques the device and there is even a follow up comment from a Palm employee on there.

Palm lost the plot years ago.

[argent]

Palm's problem is that they lost the plot years ago. The original Palm OS design allowed for all kinds of cool capabilities that require far greater resources in a more general purpose OS... consider that palm's search function gave you the same kind of capabilities as a modern "desktop search" program... on an 8 MHz 68000!

Instead of building on their strengths they panicked and let Microsoft move the goalposts, then went "wait a second, PalmOS isn't a multitasking laptop replacement, we gotta replace it or we're h0sed!" and ran off in every direction at once to try and replace something that didn't need replacing.

They should have continued to develop the Palm OS 4 platform and follow the Dragonball down to cheaper and cheaper hardware, ensuring a continual influx of new customers who bought a $100... $80... $50... $30... entry-level Palm instead of a $200 Pocket PC because, well, that's what the mass market can afford. They owned that market, and gave it up.

If they'd done that they wouldn't be trying to come up with a way to get people to buy into their latest high margin gimmick.

I'm saying this as a palm user

[soupforare]

Associate your brand with outrageous failure.

They didn't need Foleo to help them do that.

You Got Served!

[NDPTAL85]

You know.....

There's lies.....
http://lifehacker.com/software/hack-attack/install -third+party-applications-on-your-iphone-295985.ph p

And then there's lies...
http://www.tuaw.com/2007/08/07/iphone-nes-fast-usa ble-totally-rewritten/

Re:You Got Served!

[BlueGecko]

Oh, come off it, NDPTAL85. That's not even dimly officially supported at this point. I can also put a custom Linux distro on my Linksys router, but that's not exactly supported, either--and I certainly wouldn't call someone who said I couldn't install Apache on my Linksys "lying."

It's okay that the iPhone has some weaknesses right now. Having a fully locked-down phone for the moment means that Apple can guarantee a consistent user experience, minimize their phone crashing, and rigidly enforce a consistent set of UI guidelines. I'm still optimistic that the next version of the iPhone, or maybe even a later update, will come with a true, officially supported SDK. For the moment, though, pointing out that some hackers have managed to circumvent the iPhone's lock-down does not count as allowing third-party apps in the way that a Palm does.

No, SIMs are not the answer

[swb]

The SIM only provides the network authentication, it doesn't provide the radio or other cell network functionality. The SIM chip is kind of like a boot prom for a NIC, it's not enough to network enable something, you need the whole NIC.

The closest actual example are the PC/Express Cards that the wireless vendors sell that have basically all the radio function built in. Why can't I just slap one of those (or a reduced size one) into handset/PDA hardware and go?

how about 64-bit Windows support?

[Svet-Am]

I think Palm's biggest oversight right now is not having native drivers for 64-bit variants of Windows. There are absolutely no hotsync USB drivers for Windows XP x64 or for Vista x64 (despite them using the "Designed for Vista" tags on their products).

Note to Palm

[ceeam]

Dear Palm Inc executives!

Wanna know how to save your company? Just solve the quality problems and sell TX at $150 or less. You'll still have a ton of profit on them and these things _will_ be selling like hotcakes with proper edutisement. Including a decent pair of headphones wouldn't hurt.

Sincerely yours...

Re:Note to Palm

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my TX and use it almost every day. There are a few minor complaints about it I wish they would fix.
-removable battery
-go back to the metal case, like the PalmV.
-add another SD slot, and make them high capacity SD compatible (currently only supports 2gb)
-the audio out has a minor hissing noise,even when nothing is playing. If it weren't for this I would never think of using anything else for music.
-mic. Just add the hardware, let someone else program a skype client

If all these things were fixed I would definitely buy a 2nd one

The Mako (Revo)

[StreetStealth]

...was the only PDA I ever actually enjoyed using. Technologically it was the least qualified, but design-wise, it had a better little grayscale UI than all the best aspects of modern Windows Mobile and PalmOS combined. And you could edit spreadsheets on it, make graphs...

The day mine died (of blunt trauma to the LCD) I knew I'd probably never find anything like it again.

Axl Foleo

[MS-06FZ]

Even die-hard Palm fans hated it, renaming it the Flopeo or Fooleo. Palm seriously screwed up with this one, but at least they had the courage to axe it before making complete fooleos of themselves ... I was thinking "Folly-O"...

The Ecosystem

[SpaceToast]

I actually applaud Palm for dumping no more money into this. The future of notebook computers is bifurcation between "desktop replacements" and ultra low cost subnotebooks, into which Palm's project was too expensive for what it would do, and too underpowered and potentially quirky for anything else. For heavy graphics work, there's really no such thing as a "desktop replacement"; 3D will always need a big, heavy desktop. But writing, email and light web browsing are horrible things to be chained to the desktop/home office for -- a perfect market for a $200 Linux subnotebook, but hard to justify at $500.

I still use a Palm Zire 31 every day. My Zire keeps my calendar and address book, plays podcasts and music with TCPMP, and displays offline reading material with Plucker. I don't trust or care to deal with the restrictions of a locked phone for any of the above, and I don't care if my cheap, came-with-the-plan phone takes abuse.

Yes, there may be some money left in high-end smartphones for corporate users, but Palm needs to recognize that not every mobile gadget needs to be a phone. If they learn their lessons from this one and manage to make an economical subnotebook down the road, more power to them. In the meantime, they might do well to remember that PDA's didn't take off until they themselves brought it back at a much lower price point than Apple's Newton.

Sad isn't it?

[blueZ3]

My Treo gave up the ghost earlier this year and I decided not to buy another.

This is the first time in almost eight years that I haven't had a Palm. I remember the IIIxe I got when I started my first job here in Silicon Valley. It was a great tool and the free software available was really an eye-opener. What could be cooler than MAME and the whole Project Gutenberg library of eBooks to take with you while your wife is shoe shopping?

Over the years I replaced my PDA about every twenty four months and I bought a Treo 650 when they came out. I was really pleased not to have to carry a separate phone and PDA. Unfortunately, Palm's technology is really showing its age. The Treo was relatively slow and missing a lot of capabilities (WiFi) and the free PalmOS software wasn't making up for the downsides any more. When the speaker started to fail, I gave up on it, sold it, and moved on to a small phone.

Palm seems to have lost their way.

Sequel?

[krunoce]

"Palm hasn't ruled out a 'Foleo II' at some point"

So there will be a sequel to a product that never physically existed? An intangible product line - Genius!

Re:Sequel?

[arth1]

No, there won't. Jeff Hawkins will probably be leaving Palm with a big bonus, praise and pats on the shoulder (in other words what passes for being fired in the corporate world), and any "plans" for a Foleo II will immediately be buried or sold to patent sharks. Yet, that won't solve the bigger problem, which is allowing a one time large company to delude itself the way they've done.

I think the best thing Palm could do now is firing all the yes-men, and shift more of the dwindling money into market research and marketing. Technical research is beyond them at this point, but will hopefully be something they can concentrate on again in the future.

Regards,
--
*Art

Saw it at LinuxWorld, knew it wouldn't ship...

[rtechie]

Nobody at Linuxworld would answer my simple question:

Can I use this as a stand-alone PDA?

I explained that I was looking for a replacement for the NEC MobilePro, basically an instant-on portable device with a full-sized keyboard that could be used for transcription. The guy there said that he didn't know.

Of course, the reality is that the Folio was EXACTLY what I wanted. The staff just had no fucking idea what they were talking about. It was being pushed pretty much solely as a Treo accessory, which I told them I didn't want.

Basically, Palm completely dropped the ball on marketing this thing.

As an actual tester of the foleo

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Q/A lab tech who worked on the project when it was called "McGuffin" , ya, I'm sad to see it still born, but in reality it was a product missing only one key element to make it a success.
That would be all the phones guts integrated into the foleo so I or you could leave the phone at home and use the foleo to replace the treo all together. I have to agree with all the comments about the extra support equipment you'd end up packing about with you to use the device, as the power supply weighd in at 4 pounds.

Don't get me wrong, I think the product has merit, just, it wasn't packaged properly. I feel this is why Palm really canned the device b4 it went public, I still feel and predict that Palm will do just this kind of all in one integration in the foleo-2 when it eventually goes public in 3 or more years.

Treo need Wifi Built in!

[Anonymous Coward]

And they should include what every Treo user has been asking for, Wifi built in. Instead they go around disabling the only way you can get wifi on the treos, that though the SDIO slot.

-AC