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Copyright Alliance Says Fair Use Not a Consumer Right

KingSkippus writes "In response to a complaint to the FCC filed by the Computer and Communications Industry Association (CCIA) to change copyright warnings before movies and sporting events, Executive Director Patrick Ross of the Copyright Alliance tells us in an editorial that 'fair use is not a consumer right.' The Copyright Alliance is backed by such heavy-hitters as the MPAA, RIAA, Disney, Business Software Alliance, and perhaps most interestingly, Microsoft, who is also backing the CCIA's complaint."

59 of 504 comments (clear)

  1. Why isn't SCO in on this? by the_rajah · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's the new axis of evil. MPAA, RIAA, Disney, Business Software Alliance, and Microsoft. It's a rogue's gallery of the companies that we hate for their jack booted tromping on the little guys. I guess they are conveniently ignoring copyright law as written when it comes to fair use. Next step massive lobbying in congress to change it. Naw, they'd never be able to buy our upright legislators...would they?

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
    1. Re:Why isn't SCO in on this? by grcumb · · Score: 3, Funny

      Not that it doesn't excuse Microsoft from its other problems, but wasn't there an article earlier about how Microsoft was helping to *defend* fair-use?

      Yes, and it's the same bloody case, too! From the summary:

      The Copyright Alliance is backed by such heavy-hitters as the MPAA, RIAA, Disney, Business Software Alliance, and perhaps most interestingly, Microsoft, who is also backing the CCIA's complaint.

      So. no matter how this ends, Microsoft wins. But wait - no matter who loses, Microsoft loses, too!

      Wow, someone give me a magnet and some copper wire. My head is spinning so fast it feels like a perpetual motion machine.

      --
      Crumb's Corollary: Never bring a knife to a bun fight.
  2. Depends on what you mean by "right". by RightSaidFred99 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Fair use is a defense against copyright infringement suits. It is not some "inalienable" God Given right like free speech or freedom of religion. Meaning you can exercise fair use, and if someone sues you and court determines it was fair use, you're OK. However - you have no "right" to it in that if a company, say, prevents you by means of technical steps from making "fair use" of materials, you can't sue them and in fact can't do anything about it.

    1. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by DrEldarion · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're absolutely right. As much as people may hate it, the companies can use all sorts of means to prevent you from accessing their copyrighted material in any unapproved manner, and there's nothing you can do about it.

      Well, there is one thing: don't purchase it. As enraged as people seem to get about these things, though, nobody actually stops buying.

    2. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by Hooya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > [Fair Use] is not some "inalienable" God Given right like free speech or freedom of religion

      Kinda like the right for copyright protection itself huh?

    3. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by radarsat1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It is not some "inalienable" God Given right like free speech or freedom of religion.


      Freedom of religion and freedom of speech are as much socially-granted rights as fair use. (And happen to be damn good ones.) All three share the quality of being relatively new ideas in society, in the grand scheme of things. You might say we'd like to think that all three of these rights are vast improvements over how things used to work in historical times. I don't see the distinction you are trying to draw here at all.
    4. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by kebes · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually that's precisely the imbalance we now see in copyright law: their "rights" have been enshrined in new laws (DMCA) whereas our "rights" have not.

      Previously, there was some sort of tenuous balance, though it wasn't specified by law: people could use copyrighted materials in certain ways (fair use), and companies were pretty much guaranteed that widespread infringement would be easy to deal with (since printing presses were big and expensive). In the modern age, the companies see their previous comfortable position being eroded (by copying and distribution becoming trivially easy). So they get new laws to give them back the comfort they previously had. They claim that this is their "right" and so now we have the DMCA, granting them these "rights."

      The people, meanwhile, are seeing fair use eroding more every day (DRM, etc.). However, fair use has not been protected by any new laws. So companies can use technical measures to prevent fair use, and there's nothing we can (legally) do. The balance is gone.

      Personally, I think the means of restoring the balance would be to repeal the DMCA and even scale back copyright law, rather than creating yet more laws.

    5. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by Brian+Gordon · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yeah, I wouldn't quite say that freedom to choose whatever religion you want is a God-given right.

    6. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by SeekerDarksteel · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just like we as consumers can use all sorts of means to circumvent access restrictions that keep us from using the material in a method deemed fair use.

      oh wait...

      --
      The laws of probability forbid it!
    7. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by kebes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Indeed. Many of most our highly regarded social values/goals (freedom of speech, racial equality, etc.) are rather modern concepts. I would argue that in addition to the "moral high-ground" of such concepts, they brought with them considerable peace, progress, and prosperity (both intellectual, and even economic). The conclusion I hope people draw from this is that we must be on the lookout for new social values which will "elevate" our society.

      Perhaps one of the hardest ideas to get across in the whole "intellectual property" debate is that, perhaps, there is some social value currently being ignored. Many people decry the "information wants to be free" rally as nothing more than "greedy pirates justifying their selfishness." While I will not deny that many people violate copyright law for purely selfish reasons, I again want to emphasize that there may be a deeper moral question... and that many opponents of the status quo may be deriving their opinions from that question.

      I do not really think that a "no copyright" world is the right way to go... but there is a social value of "digital freedom" (or whatever you want to call it) that is not yet taken seriously, but I believe will be crucial to our advancement, as a society, in the coming years. I think we need to learn to accord fundamental respect to the pursuit of knowledge, to the free distribution of knowledge and culture. Yes, this needs to be balanced against incentives to artists and reward for contributing to society. However I believe the present climate where all ideas are "owned" is untenable and, ultimately, immoral.

    8. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by bensafrickingenius · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "nobody actually stops buying."

      Sorry, but you're mistaken. *I* stopped buying ebooks. And I was HOOKED for a long time. When I figured out that Adobe was going to steal the books I'd purchased back from me after I bought my 3rd laptop (they limit the number of devices you can read their books on), and after I spent hours on line with their "tech support" (sorry if milk just squirted out your nose at the notion of Adobe providing tech support), I decided I was done. Cold turkey. This was about 3 years ago. I'd love it if I could go back to ebooks, but I will not until they fix (or eliminate) their horrible DRM scheme.

      --
      I am not left-handed, either!
    9. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by Randseed · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, there is one thing: don't purchase it. As enraged as people seem to get about these things, though, nobody actually stops buying.

      Actually, it's the precise reason I haven't bought a CD or DVD since the RIAA and MPAA, respectively, started this little anti-fair-use jihad of theirs.

      Here's an example: I subscribe to HBO. HBO shows, say, "Superman Returns." I can watch it legally on HBO. I can record it and rewatch it. The MPAA is arguing that I can't "context shift" that material so that I can watch it when I'm stuck on call at work. (Doctor. Lots of down time in the middle of the night.) What has the MPAA lost? Nothing. What has HBO lost? Nothing, because I already subscribe to that channel.

      Now, I can see the MPAA's argument if I don't subscribe to any of the "premium" channels and am doing this, but regardless of HOW I get the material, I'm paying to view it. Frankly, the more the MPAA argues these points, the greater the chance that people like me are just going to stop subscribing to the "premium" channels in the first place. They've already done great strides for this with CableCard. (i.e., I'd love to record my favorite programs to my PC, then load them on my laptop and watch them during down time. Unfortunately, idiotic encrypted QAM prevents that.)

      The same goes for the RIAA. If it's "fair use" that I record a song off the radio, then how is it any different if I obtain said recording through a different means? Sure, I *could* go set up a recording rig and hook it to an FM receiver. I have the equipment to do it. In that case, I have the content, and it's "fair use." So if I obtain it through different means, it's the same data. How is that not "fair use?"

    10. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by OECD · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Personally, I think the means of restoring the balance would be to repeal the DMCA and even scale back copyright law, rather than creating yet more laws.

      Even better, just do it. (sorry Nike, track my ass down.)

      Seriously, the current copyright regime has twenty years tops before people realize that it's counter-productive. More significantly, the (jargon alert) MAFIAA will have reduced itself to a shadow of its former might by its heavy-handed tactics.

      There's a beautiful symmetry to all of this. The copyright holding companies wanted to make sure a fluke like "Night of the Living Dead" never happened again. So they made everything copyrighted. Problem solved? No, since everything is copyrighted, everything was potentially infringing. The achillies' heel in all this is that if everything is sacred, nothing is sacred. You've debased the term to a meaningless point.

      Now, they're trying to deal with the fact that they're a victim of their own success.

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    11. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by Doctor_Jest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Very true, since it's their crapola...

          Or, you can circumvent it yourself without consequence because you are not doing anything to deprive them of any revenue or infringe on their copyright making 10000 copies for your closet stack of DVDs. Simply put, Copyright's never been about guaranteeing revenue... but it's turned into that... and copyright's "limited time" has been assraped so much that it's probably unable to even fart. Their idea of telling you what you can and can't watch/listen to your purchased content on is their desire for a pay-per-view universe... where you pay for every viewing, listening, reading of something... not just once in the case now... like we're all in their own private little theater and we have to pay the fee each time we use their crud. It's their orgasmic dream to do that... and they are working _VERY_ hard to make it happen... harder than they work even to sue the pants off college students who trade music.

          I don't purchase crippled CD's (or those from major labels, for that matter... not that it matters much, since major labels really _do_ produce dog shit music.) I also don't purchase anything Disney has anything to do with, since they are instrumental in raping the corpse of the public domain... the goddamned vultures need all to die... It means I miss most Pixar movies... well, all of them, actually... unless of course someone else loans me their copy. :) (in the case of the Incredibles...)

          Since the "digital age" (as if it somehow has put the western world in "jeopardy") is now an attempt to force even more controls on _ME_, rather than the works themselves... I find it laughable that they can make a distinction between fair-use _now_ and in the _past_ simply because it's on a computer rather than a VHS tape or audio cassette. Because it's "bits" now instead of magnetic media (or whatever), they somehow believe all the provisions that were set forth in court case after court case in hundreds of years of law don't apply because the word "digital" is attached to it. Fuck you... to put it in terms they can understand.

          The problem with people in general is their incessant desire to be entertained, because they've known nothing more over the last few decades... people of a previous generation are less likely to hoard useless entertainment materials and seek out all kinds of entertainment because their upbringing was work until dark, then sleep so you can do it all over again tomorrow. We (and I'm including me in this one, so keep those cards and letters) are lazy, Pavlovian experiments gone wild. Ring bell, fork over money, get treat. It sucks. I figure it'll get worse before it gets better... that the moguls and idiots in charge will find a tipping point past which NO one will bother with the hassle of movies or music... and they'll have made such a mess of the legal and technology sectors because of it that it'll take two generations to fix... and then it'll go RIGHT back to the way it is now... as if the Marx cycle has an "entertainment division..."

      I sometimes feel like part of the problem... and I'm not even the worst "consume more" person that I know...

      --
      It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
    12. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by OECD · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I do not really think that a "no copyright" world is the right way to go...

      I'm not quite there (yet,) but the thing that I can't figure is:

      The Founding Fathers (if I ever do a superhero spoof, that's the one) figured that fourteen years was enough.

      In the interim, We figured out how to do printing much faster (that's my industry, so trust me on this one)

      On top of that we figured out how to get copies out to potentially unlimited individuals (c.f., SPAM.)

      So, why is copyright now longer (and more inclusive) than it was when the country was founded?

      --
      One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    13. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by BoberFett · · Score: 3, Informative

      Protecting your "property" with DRM is not a right either. Perhaps it's you who needs to read the Consitution again.

    14. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by dwater · · Score: 3, Informative

      > they [the regime] can not [control] their thought process.

      Really? I bed to differ. Some thought control methods that come immediately to mind :

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotism
      and more generally :
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_control

      wrt how well they work on populations, YMMV, but at least propaganda has been used extensively throughout history, in war and peace time.

      --
      Max.
    15. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by eht · · Score: 4, Informative

      If the titles appeal to you, check out Baen's books, never had DRM, never will, one purchase gives you the ebooks in many formats usually HTML, RTF, DOC, RB, PRC, and LIT.

      Many of the authors who deal with Baen even give them away, either through the website or with CDs distributed on first run hardcovers. The CDs while copyrighted are freely redistributable and are all found at BaenCD.

    16. Re:Depends on what you mean by "right". by Kymri · · Score: 3, Informative

      Seconded and thirded; I've bought multiple copies of books from them - half the time, if I can't find the bok and I thought I bought it, I'll just re-buy it. A few bucks is well worth it to support Baen's endeavors in this realm. They're good like that. And it helps that I like sci-fi and military sci-fi, of course.

      I started back some years ago when I bought (geek-purchase, not any real need) a Rocket eBook reader. Baen's authors were ones I'd been reading for a while, but it turns out they supported the format. I've been buying from them ever since.

      Not only is there no DRM, but they offer the books in HTML, RTF, Rocket format and ... one or two others I can't remember, one of which is a specific format that there's a Palm reader for.

      They actually go out of their way to make it easy for the customer to read the books, they do the exact OPPOSITE of what most other eBook publishers and distributors do. And the best of all is that there are dozens of books they offer for free - in their entirety! Try before you buy indeed!

      --
      Evolution ceases when stupidity can no longer be fatal.
  3. In a word, bullshit. by jcr · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The only reason that we issue copyrights and patents is to encourage producers to create and invent new works. Copyright isn't a right at all, it's a privilege which we the people grant to copyright holders, for limited times, for the benefit of the public.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
  4. Hmmmm.....Then Copyright is not a "right" either.. by Dr_Marvin_Monroe · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Seems to me that "fair-use" is an important part of the balance that's been struck between the copyright holders and the public. If they're saying that it's not included in "copyright," then perhaps we all should consider the whole deal is off. Hollywood is pulling the typical negotiation game here. First, they get the extensions in copyright length. Then they try to pull "fair-use" off the table and expect all of the other negotiated points (extensions, DMCA, etc.) to stick.

    If they want re-negotiate, perhaps we should go back to the way it was originally setup in the constitution and start back from there. Full and exclusive copyright only lasts 17 years. Period. No extensions of any type. That's my best offer.

    Hollywood is playing a very dangerous game here. Public opinion is pretty much against them, while we're re-defining copyright perhaps we should put this up for a referendum?

  5. You're right, but they're still evil.. by the_rajah · · Score: 4, Funny

    You don't have to have lots of money to be evil, but it sure helps.

    --


    "Do the Right Thing. It will gratify some people and astound the rest." - Mark Twain
  6. Pardon me? by downix · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Last time I checked, Copyright, was not a "god-given" or even constitutionally guaranteed right. Copyright is a right granted by the people, and it is a right that can be revoked by the people. The right was granted for a temporary (repeat, temporary) monopoly to a given work, in exchange for a public record to be kept in the library of congress, stored for future generations. In addition, copyright included provisions to not harm the common citizens for utilizing their own copies of such works as they see fit. Otherwise, copyright holders could impose ludicrus and rediculous limitations, such as "if you watch this... no, if you even recieve a copy of this, watched or not, you must agree to sleep with the director" and, if these guys have their interpretations of copyright forced on us, we would be obliged!

    So, I shall be publishing a short copywritten piece shortly with just this provision in it, and if anyone knows the guys behind this push, feel free to send copies to them, I insist....

    --
    Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    1. Re:Pardon me? by belmolis · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, the authority of the federal government to issue copyrights is directly provided for in the Constitution. One of the powers granted to Congress in Article I, Section 8 is: (Clause 8)

      To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
    2. Re:Pardon me? by IvyKing · · Score: 3, Informative

      Copyright is a right granted by the people, and it is a right that can be revoked by the people.


      The origin of copyright was the king granting the right for printers to print copies of a book and that's why the term 'royalty' shows up when talking about payments involving copyrighted works. The idea that ordinary people, as opposed to the landed gentry, can own property is a relatively recent one (ca. 1700).

      Now what makes all this a farce is that it is virtually impossible to create an all but the simplest copyrighted work without making use of works copyrighted by others.


      Slightly off-topic rant: One of the examples used in favor of extending the term of copyright was to allow Harold Loyd's granddaughter(?) to earn some money by re-releasing his movies. At the same time, Hollyweird basically told the widow of the captain of the boat that inspired "The Perfect Storm" that she was SOL in regards to mis-portrayal of her husband in the movie.

  7. Copyright Progress by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Informative
    Here's all the power there is to deal with our rights to free expression:

    Amendment I
    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;

    Article I.8
    The Congress shall have power to [...] promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;


    Congress can make an exception to protecting our rights to free expression (like copying someone else's expression) where economics requires exclusivity of some expressions to promote progress in science and useful arts. But only where necessary for that promotion of progress, and only for limited times - and only to authors and inventors. Not when economics doesn't require the exemption. Not for unlimited (or so long that the limits are effectively meaningless, or renewable) times. And not to record labels, which are neither authors nor inventors.

    The "fair use" isn't some exception to copyright. It's the basic right, to free expression. In recognition of its nonthreat to progress, the exclusivity, the artificial monopoly that Congress can create, doesn't apply to that free expression.

    The whole copyright exclusivity is obsolete. There's a case for very short times for exclusive exploitation, different lengths for different media, before the content becomes folklore. But these Copyright Alliance creeps are just thieves. Using our government against us. Trashing the First Amendment we use to get our government to protect us. And exploiting beyond any defensible reason their license to mint money that they find in Article I.8.

    Let's take them up on their offer to start over. And strip down these artificial government monopolies to actually promote science and the useful arts. 17 years for books and songs, shorter for the rest, maybe a day for news, maybe 15 minutes for financial news. That's progress.
    --

    --
    make install -not war

    1. Re:Copyright Progress by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I chose 17 years as an upper bound. It was the original term of exclusivity. And it's about how long a human generation takes to turn "pop" content into "folk" content.

      But there is clearly a measurable economic underlying this principle. To be more precise, every registered copyright (which should be required for any enforcement, not just the current system which gives punitive damages only to registered ones) should have an auditable cost invested. As soon as the work has returned 10x the investment, or 17 years, whichever comes first, the copyright expires. Every 5 years or so the average time to return 10x investment should be recalculated for the previous maximum expiration, and the default set to that new term. That way, progress by profit motive will be ensured, as will return to the public domain.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  8. The "Right" of Copyright by rlp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Copyright is a temporary suspension of the free speech rights of others. It was intended by the founders as a short-term suspension of free speech in order to encourage authors / artists and provide them with a livelihood during their lifetime. It's long past time to reign in perpetual copyright and return it to that original limited form.

    --
    [Insert pithy quote here]
  9. Actually... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't think we want copyright warnings to become a fair use public service announcement.

    Actually, yes we do.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  10. Consumer vs citizen rights... huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm kind of worried about the sort of language being used nowadays. In the media, and by corporations, people are increasingly being referred to as 'consumers', whereas in the past they were more referred to as 'citizens'. I think this kind of language subtly displays a sort of attempted disassociation of people with their rights through getting them to think of themselves not as citizens, with all their inalienable and somewhat inconvenient (for corporations) rights, but mere consumers of products with somewhat more alienable "consumer rights", belittling them in the process. Merely using the term "consumer rights" implies that they are somehow separate from "citizens rights". This has shades of the somewhat fascist book "Starship Troopers" IMHO, with its distinction of citizens and civilians.

  11. Got lube? by Orange+Crush · · Score: 3, Funny

    Because I *so* enjoy being told to bend over and brace myself. As a consumer, I work to get money. Then I hand that money to companies that make things I like. Some of these things are intangible--like music and movies and in some rare cases . . . art. Since it's hard to make money off of intangible things (since media and transmission is relatively cheap) I'll allow laws to grant companies exclusive distribution rights so they can make profit and keep making stuff I like.

    *My airwaves* *My nation's laws* *My consent* *My money*

    #1 & #2 were long since auctioned off. #3 has been rendered imaginary. I still have power over #4, and guess what I'm not shelling out for crap I don't want anymore?

    (and why the hell doesn't slashdot have a +1 drunken rant!? Or -1 drunken rant . . . or even Z@!I#NV j60o

  12. The article is oversimplified and confusing by belmolis · · Score: 4, Informative

    The argument that Ross appears to make is a non-sequitur. He says that fair use is not a consumer right because it is an affirmative defense to copyright infringement. There's no connection between the two. For those who don't know, an "affirmative defense" is a defense that does negate an essential element of the charge. For example, if you are charged with murder, one defense that you could offer is the prosecution hasn't demonstrated that you were the one who committed the murder. Another defense would be that the prosecution has not shown that a homicide occurred (if, say, there is no body). These are non-affirmative defenses because all the defense has to do is to argue that the prosecution has failed to meet some part of its burden. Another defense to a murder charge is self-defense. Self-defense is an affirmative defense. The defendant admits that a homicide occurred, that he or she did it, etc., but argues that he or she is nonetheless not legally responsible.

    In the case of copyright infringement, civil or criminal, fair use is an affirmative defense because the defendant admits the elements. He or she says: "Yes, I copied material whose copyright does not belong to me", which is the essence of copyright infringement, but its okay because the use was of a type that the law acknowledges as acceptable, just as self-defense is an acceptable reason for killing someone.

    There is no reason to suppose that there should be a connection between whether a defense is affirmative or ordinary and whether it is a right. For example, surely self-defense is a right, but it is nonetheless an affirmative, not ordinary, defense. So the mere fact that fair use is an affirmative defense does not show, as Ross seems to think, that fair use is not a right.

    The possible grain of truth in what he says is that the fact that fair use is a defense to copyright infringement does not mean that it is a right whose violation is actionable. Statements that describe copyright infringment in absolute terms, without mentioning fair use, are inaccurate, and possibly constitute deceptive advertising, but whether consumers have a legal right to fair use that makes technical measures, such as DRM, that interfere with fair use, actionable, is unclear. There is a colorable argument that there is a fair use right in this sense, which is what the plaintiffs are arguing, but it is also true that this has not been established in court.

    So, insofar as Ross is claiming that there is some sort of connection between the kind of defense provided by fair use and whether it is a right, he is wrong, but insofar as he is just claiming that the provision of fair use as a defense does not make it a right, what he says is true. I personally think that fair use is a right, for First Amendment reasons, but this right flows from the First Amendment and not from the fair use provisions of the copyright statutes.

  13. music is evolving by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Interesting

    movies aren't. the movie house business is going gang busters, but the dvd after market will fizzle (which evolved from the vhs aftermarket, which these same morons fought with the same rationalizations you hear now, 30 years ago, lost, and came to embrace the vcr as a cash cow. nice foresight, x2)

    music will become something people only pay for to go to live concerts. all other music will be freely traded, and musicians will make money from advertising and abovementioned concerts. no, it's not jayz money. as if that was ever a prerequisite for the desire to make music

    the only people who are losing are the economic middle men. all we hear are the cries of their death throes. zzz

    let them lock up their copyrighted works with all of the advanced tools of copyright protection they want. #1: it's easily defeated anyway. #2: much like newspapers have learned, it's all about accessibility. so let the morons make their product inaccessible, and reap the fruits of that genius strategy in a new world with new rules

    all we hear are from idiots in media companies who don't understand what the internet means to their business, or desperate men who do understand what the internet means to their business: it's killing it

    oh well, who cares. sucks to be on the losing side of history

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  14. Legal advice? by Pearson · · Score: 4, Interesting

    FTA: "So, how exactly would the FTC rewrite these copyright notices to reflect a consumer's ability to attempt a fair use defense? Should they paste in all of the above language? We're wading into the area of providing legal advice"

    He is basically arguing that Fair Use is so complicated that explaining it to people constitutes legal advice. Yet he admits that the notices currently in place are simply scare tactics.

    "these warnings do exactly what they're meant to do--notify consumers in a succinct fashion that infringement has legal consequences."

    In essence, he's saying "Our rights are easier to describe than yours, so we'll forget about yours."

    --
    I...I'm attacking the darkness!
  15. Re:WANTED: Lying sack of shit for our PR position by turing_m · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "Sure, it's always been there, but the stench seems to be getting stronger..."

    The only difference is that the conduit by which that stench gets communicated to the public now has greater bandwidth, thanks to the internet. For now.

    --
    If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
  16. Corporations Need to be Smacked Down! by tjstork · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Dear God, I pride myself on being a right wing troll, and I am capitalist to the core, but when companies start a public campaign to deceive citizens into thinking they have no rights in order to make a buck, then a line in the sand must be drawn.

    The fact is very simple - corporations have less of a right to exist than consumers have of a fair use in copyright, and, even more importantly, the desirability of corporate profits does not entitle them into twisting laws to create an oligarchy. Capitalism exists as an American system to benefit the American people, and not the other way around. Corporations are no more entitled to rent seeking and guaranteed profits than a lazy man is entitled to a government check. If corporations want to earn more money, then they should be compelled to invent new products and new services, not attempt to bend the will of the government and the soul of the people into being enslaved into old products, old services, and worst of all, old ideas.

    My fellow Republicans need to be reminded that to be a genuine conservative is to value freedom first and foremost. From that freedom we do have a prosperous society, yes, but prosperity is not why we value freedom and we should not let our greed rule deceive us into believing that the point of freedom is profits for someone else. There will come a time, and it may be soon, when we have to choose between freedom versus wealth, and we can only hope that men of good conscience will have to see that the former is always priceless.

    --
    This is my sig.
  17. Actually fine... by thej1nx · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Fine, let them win. Okay, fair use is not a consumer right!


    And copyright protection is not a producer right either then.

    There is zero reason why they should be given any extra protection by law then. It should be the companies' responsibility to think of the methods of protecting their idea/IP. If joe public is not allowed to have fair use, no reason why *our* tax money should go towards wasting time of courts funded by us, to help out these companies. Let them spend their own money on trying to devise methods to prevent competitors from copying off their idea.

    The whole idea of copyrights and patents was for the benefit of the public, not for the companies, by encouraging invention and arts for the benefit of public. the whole deal is null and void if they want to renegade on their part.

    If the joe public must pay for everything, so must they.

    1. Re:Actually fine... by thej1nx · · Score: 5, Informative
      No you don't. That is the whole arguement!


      Copyrights, patents etc. are essentially a deal between the public and companies/innovaters to provide a safer way of releasing their inventions, creations etc. to public without wasting too much time on fighting off copycats. In return, the public gets a cheaper/better deal as well. Why on earth should the public provide special protection support if they are not getting much in return? Why shouldn't the burden of protecting their idea, be on the corporations instead? Let *them* figure out how to keep their idea a secret and still make a much larger profit without worrying about copycat competitors.

      If the public sees no direct benefits at all from this deal, without having to pay through the nose for all and any usage, why on earth would we be interest in helping such corporations retain their profit? Let *them* find their own solutions for protecting their idea. why should courts and governments funded by *public* tax money, help out these corporations?

      It is stupid to think that without patents, no progress will happen. Steam engine and Railways did get invented. USA and many other countries stole a huge amount of such industrial inventions from Britain and used it without paying any royalties, no? And yet even in such insecure environment, companies still were doing business. Such inventors were merely making lesser profits and going to greater lengths to keep their secrets.

      Corporates are just trying to force a lop-sided deal on the public. And public need not keep their end of the bargain either then.

    2. Re:Actually fine... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
      Fine, let them win. Okay, fair use is not a consumer right!

      And copyright protection is not a producer right either then.

      There are some issues you should likely become familiar with.

      Let me preface this by saying I once saw a discussion of the fair use issue by a practicing IP lawyer on a photography usenet newsgroup. No, that doesn't make him evil -- he claims that most IP action is not the **AA stuff we hear so much about. Some 95% of the practice is dealing with B2B claims of infringement, not corps vs. individuals. He also said the goal is generally to come to a settlement between businesses (cross-licensing, etc.) instead of dragging cases before judges. FWIW, he also said he's not fabulously wealthy and has to work hard to keep up with a moderate-sized mortgage. Over some time, I found his input to be useful, non-hysterical and generally reasonable.

      With that background in mind, his analysis follows.

      Fair use is not actually a defined right. It is, instead, an"affirmative defense" against a charge of copyright violation. That's a difference, however subtle. That is to say, IF you are charged with violation, you may assert FU as a defense.

      An analogous case _might be_ if you're being chased by someone with a gun and if you run through my front yard and trample some extremely valuable shrubs and flowers, you could possibly (if I were a jerk and had a compliant cop friend to push the issue) be charged with trespass and destruction of property. You might then assert, as an affirmative defense, that your life had been in danger. Though you might eventually have to reimburse me for my loss, the charge of trespass and property destruction would be dismissed.

      From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_defense

      An affirmative defense is a category of defense used in litigation between private parties in common law jurisdictions, or, more familiarly, a type of defense raised in criminal law by the defendant. Affirmative defenses operate to limit or excuse or avoid a defendant's criminal culpability or civil liability, even if the factual allegations of plaintiff's claim are admitted or proven.

      Hence, while not the same as a right, an affirmative defense can mitigate or remove a great deal of liability.

      Standard disclaimers apply to anything I have said above.

    3. Re:Actually fine... by timmarhy · · Score: 3, Funny
      "even governments have limits to their greediness. "

      born yesterday were you?

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    4. Re:Actually fine... by cpt+kangarooski · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No. And remember that the US required authors to specially seek out copyrights, instead of getting them automatically, from 1790 through to 1978. The system worked just fine. We never should've changed it merely because other countries did things differently; it's as stupid as jumping off a cliff just because all the other kids do it too.

      --
      -- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
    5. Re:Actually fine... by twistedsymphony · · Score: 4, Funny

      "even governments have limits to their greediness. "
      born yesterday were you?
      Yeah but he stayed up all night...
    6. Re:Actually fine... by indifferent+children · · Score: 4, Funny
      That is to say, IF you are charged with violation, you may assert FU as a defense.

      I tried that. When I got my day in court, I said to the judge, "Here's my defense, your honor...FU!" It didn't help my case.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    7. Re:Actually fine... by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I will say, from a non-lawyer point of view, I'd say the distinction doesn't make much difference because of the established court decisions.

      Perhaps you're right to date and in your jurisdiction. However, it seems to me that the difference between fair use being a consumer right and an affirmative defence is a simple principle: in one case, it would be against the rules for them to try to stop you, while in the other, they can try but it's OK if you succeed anyway. This is pretty significant when it comes to issues like DRM. (It's arguably off-topic here, but a similar principle might apply when considering what is known in some places as the doctrine of first sale, and how that matches up to on-line product activation.)

      The sad thing is, I suspect that in this case, the copyright lobby guy is actually correct. I believe that the law should be changed so certain provisions of fair use/fair dealing/whatever your jurisdiction calls it are given the status of consumer rights, such that actively undermining them is against the law. For example, if you want to DRM your product because you believe this will help to protect your business interests, that would be OK, but only if you provided alternative means for people to exercise what wound then be their fair use rights. (Again, the parallel is that you could require on-line activation as an anti-piracy device if you chose to make that business decision, but only if you provided the means for people to resell a legitimate copy of your software under the doctrine of first sale without the new owner finding they couldn't use it effectively, and a means for someone to activate the software if they had to restore from a back-up after your original on-line activation scheme had shut down.)

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    8. Re:Actually fine... by coats · · Score: 3, Informative

      I believe that the law should be changed so certain provisions of fair use/fair dealing/whatever your jurisdiction calls it are given the status of consumer rights...
      Actually, that is supposed to be the law right now: "fair use" arose as the result of a Supreme Court decision that said "Congress may not pass copyright protection so stringent as to abridge free speech and freedom of the press. The codification of specific "fair use" language into the Copyright Act came much later.

      So the NFL [baseball, olympic, ...] claim to own reporting of their events is specifically illegal in the US, according to the original Supreme Court decision.

      --
      "My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
  18. Baen ebooks: no DRM by steveha · · Score: 5, Informative

    I'd love it if I could go back to ebooks, but I will not until they fix (or eliminate) their horrible DRM scheme.

    I am a very satisfied customer of Baen ebooks. Baen does it right.

    You can download in any or all of five different formats: HTML, RTF, Palm ebook, Rocket ebook, or Microsoft ebook. The book is not under any sort of DRM. They have all their new releases, not just some weird out of print titles. And they have a deal where you can buy 5 or 6 books at a time for $15!

    That latter deal they call "Webscriptions". If you buy a really new book, the webscription might include only part of the book. Over time, more of the book is revealed, and finally the whole book is available. But as long as you are buying a Webscription monthly selection that is old enough (which is most of them) you get all the books at once.

    And, I believe they are still doing the deal where you buy a monthly Webscription selection and you can give a Webscription selection to a friend. You do this by providing them with the friend's email address, so check with the friend to make sure he or she is cool with giving out the email address. (I made a test email account on my server, and gifted it with a monthly selection; it has never received any spam, so I believe Baen when they say they do not give out your email address to spammers.)

    I have spent over $300 at Baen, and my collection of Baen ebooks is up to 200 books! That includes titles from the "free library". Yes, Baen also just plain gives away some ebooks.

    Baen free library:
    http://www.baen.com/library/

    ebooks, and monthly Webscription selections:
    http://www.webscription.net/

    Here are a few free ebooks to get you going. These are some of my favorites; perhaps you might like them too.

    The best of Keith Laumer's classic "Retief" stories!
    http://www.webscription.net/pc-347-1-retief.aspx

    A book in the style of the old "pulp" novels, with magic and mad science thrown in.
    http://www.webscription.net/pc-110-1-doc-sidhe.asp x

    Humans stranded on a planet with large intelligent large molluscs. The humans need help just to digest the local food, but they can do some things the locals cannot, also.
    http://www.webscription.net/pc-287-1-mother-of-dem ons.aspx

    The first of the "Honor Harrington" series, and my favorite of them.
    http://www.webscription.net/pc-304-1-on-basilisk-s tation.aspx

    I hope you will enjoy reading some of these ebooks!

    steveha

    --
    lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
  19. Whether it is a right is irrelevant by taustin · · Score: 4, Informative

    Whether or not fair use is a "right" is irrelevant. Fair use is explicitly spelled out in Title 17, section 107 as a "limitation on exclusive rights." Not only is it irrelevant whether or not fair use is a right, it is explicity, statutory law that the rights given to copyright holders are limited by fair use. The law is nearly the exact opposite what these thieves are claiming.

  20. Re:I find this amusing. by Libertarian001 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry, but your car analogy (on Slashdot?! Who'd'a thunk it...) is completely wrong. If you *sell* me your car, I can do as I damn well please with it and there's not a damn thing you can say or do about it. If you *license* me the car, then you have control. And when your licensing terms suck, I'll go elsewhere.

    Thanks for confusing the issue, though (and somehow getting moderated insightful...sigh).

    This is part of what's crap with the current system. I walk into a store, find a CD I like, give the clerk money, and take it home. This, by definition, is a sale. That CD is mine to do what I want with. At no point in time during this transaction was it brought to my attention that I was actually agreeing to a license. Since you brought up cars...Imagine what would happen if I "bought" a brand new Ford and Ford then told me that I couldn't give rides to my family, friends, co-workers, etc. because I didn't have a multi-passenger license. Of course, they'd quickly offer me the "opportunity" to upgrade my license (for a fee) to allow this, as well as charging any person who wants a ride in my car a license as well. Don't like the car analogy? What if it were a house and the builder put these limitations on it? What a brain-dead system, all because "artists" think they're special (read: Better than everyone else).

    But let's say it is actually a license. That makes it a freaking contract. That means that everything, all privileges, limitations and responsibilities, needs to be written down. Then all parties have to show what they're giving up in order to get something. Then all parties have to show they understand the terms. Then all parties have to sign it. And it needs to be kept on record. I need a copy and the manufacturer/producer (eg, Sony BMG, Universal, etc.) needs to keep a copy. That way, when I lose the physical medium of the work that I licensed, they can quickly provide me with a new copy for almost free (material cost and S&H).

    I won't go so far as to say that copyright needs to be abolished, but these companies need to be reminded that it's a privilege, not a right, that they're granted. And as for duration, it needs to be shortened, not lengthened. (Financial and technical) Limitations from 200+ years ago justified 14-year terms. But in this nice modern world of ours where everyone has a computer with a word processor, an internet connection and access to Print On Demand technology, it's easier and easier for the artists to make their money back and then some, meaning the duration of government protection via fiat monopoly ought to be decreased.

  21. Re:I find this amusing. by Twanfox · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I walk into a store, find a CD I like, give the clerk money, and take it home. This, by definition, is a sale. That CD is mine to do what I want with. At no point in time during this transaction was it brought to my attention that I was actually agreeing to a license.

    Copyright isn't a license. Copyright is a law granting certain rights and privileges to the creator of that work in return for the eventual handover of that work to the public domain for the public good. When you walk into that store and buy that CD, you didn't have to agree to any license. By living in a society where copyright is a recognized law, and by not having similarly like-minded individuals to abolish such a thing, you are required to honor that law until such time as you can convince a sufficient percentage of the population that it should be removed. That copyright states what you can and cannot do in reproducing or replicating that work. In some cases, where the literal copying of the work doesn't make sense or doesn't well fit (playing a recording of a performance for profit), the law seeks to cover those situations as "fairly" agreed upon by a "majority" of the population. "Fairly" and "majority" in quotations because this tends to get skewed in easily corruptible societies.

    As for there being more specific terms of a copyright "license", all that should really be is a written form of granted rights that the creator of the work is granting the owner of that copy. Think GPL. In the forum of software, copyright applies just as it does in any other realm. However, the terms of the GPL do not seek to limit further than the law states, it seeks to grant additional rights to the 'owner' of that copy of the software, with additional terms and conditions in place for that grant. If you choose not to abide by those terms, then your standard copyright law would apply and you would be prevented from doing whatever copyright has disallowed you to.

    If you enter into a contract that seeks to restrict beyond copyright, then yes, those terms should be plain, in writing, and agreed upon by both parties. The car analogy that was given was not an invalid analogy, even though it is a car analogy. In the analogy, a prototype (unique, one of a kind) is available to you, but in order for the creator to allow you to purchase it, they want you to sign a contract that will bind you to additional terms and conditions. As long as it is agreed upon by both parties and you enter into that contract to buy that car, even though you "purchased" that car, you are still held accountable for the conditions stipulated in that contract you signed. You agreed to them before purchasing the car, therefor being (to me and apparently the parent of your post) an ethical, legal, and proper agreement.

    Of course, these are all 'ideal world' statements, and simply my opinion and understanding of how it should operate. You don't need to agree to laws to be bound by them, and copyright is a law. There are a great many I don't agree with, but until/unless I can convince enough other people that they are useless laws, the 'majority' feel that it is the public interest to have them, and so they will stay. Oh ya, and IANAL so I may have made mistakes in my understanding of the laws.

  22. Betamax vs. VHS by rts008 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Wasn't this already covered? Wasn't this setting the 'Fair Use' argument in favor of the customer? (I refuse to use the word consumer unless it applies to a customer, hireling, pet, livestock,slave or chattel actually eating/drinking the afore mentioned 'product')

    If this is left up to the parties pushing this brainwashing, then soon you will have to give up your credit card/banking info to the MafIAA, and be willing to be charged for even thinking of a snippet of some advertising jingle, much less a line from a covered song, or a memory of a movie scene.

    Near Future Scenario: (I am skating as a clerk in a 'Shit-N-Git' in OK-long story, but in this town if you want gas/petrol, you either use a credit card at the pump, or prepay inside at the register.):

    Me: Can I help you? *100th cusomer this hour*
    Customer: Twenty in gas! *throws $50 bill on counter and starts walking out; there are 8 vehicles at our 12 fuel pumps-all can deliver gas...4 can deliver diesel...(WTF is up with this throwing money thingy?!?!?*)
    Me: Which pump are you at?
    Customer:*still walking out of door...(There are 2 cash registers with approx. 4-6 people at each register at this time)..THE WHITE TRUCK,YOU DUMBSHIT!!!
    Me: *looks out front window to see 10 of the 12 pumps occupied....5 of them are white trucks?!?!?!- the credit/debit fuel purchases show up different on the register, but there are still 3 'white trucks' at the pump, with no fueling activated...tour bus towing an SUV pulls up blocking view of the pumps...OPPORTUNITY HERE!..Hmmmm...Fsck it! Wanna play asshole with me? Heh! Heh! Heh!, I can't ignore the customers in line that do have their shit together.
    *runs 6 people inside through checkout...looks out window- tourbus pulling away, not much else happening except for a group of guys back by the beer cooler have stopped to sniff asses/bullshit-they own 2 of the 3 white trucks at the pumps...Heh!, Heh! $50 bill, $20 IN GAS AT one OF THE THREE WHITE TRUCKS?hEH! hEH!...tOTALLY IGNORE HIM AND HIS TRUCK..do I pocket the $50?

    Me:* keeps waiting on customers in line in the store- just sets $50 bill on top of register*
    10 minutes later: 'By now pissed off, arrogant asshole' comes back in.. still 2 customers in line...Ignore asshole as he's shouting about not getting fuel...take care of last two customers, then:
    What's the problem? Can I help you?

    Asshole (was customer): Where's my fuel?
    Me: What fuel?
    Asshole: In the White Truck!
    Me: Which White Truck? (still three out there)
    Asshole: THAT WHITE TRUCK!!!
    Me:*throws $50 bill across, and off of the counter* Which white truck, or you just an asshole?
    Asshole: Huh? *picks up $50 bill from floor* I want 50 in gas on pump #6, dickhead!
    Me: I'm sorry you cn't express yourself in a polite enough manner to conclude this transaction....NEXT!

    --
    Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
  23. Ross is technically right, practically wrong by snowwrestler · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Ok, I know this is Slashdot and all, but I just had to R This FA. And you know what, Ross is technically right, but in a practical sense is dead wrong. Let's go to the videotape...

    Fair use, as CCIA must surely know, is not a "consumer right," but rather an affirmative defense. And this is an important difference. As a lesson in terms of art for lawyers, this is correct. From any practical perspective, it is incorrect; there is no practical difference between an affirmative defense of fair use vs. an affirmative defense of freedom of speech (for example). Calling something an "affirmative defense" is mostly a matter of when it is (or must) be raised in trial proceedings. Applying the term does not somehow reduce the strength of what it's applied to.

    It's true that copyright law contains some exemptions, such as commentary and criticism, where one may be able to use a copyrighted work without authorization, but the full extent of those exceptions is intentionally not defined in the statute...Court decisions have further delineated what some of those cases of fair use might be. Here we see Ross explicitly admitting that there are exemptions to copyright protection enshrined in legislation and case law. For all practical purposes these constitute "rights"--the "right to privacy" or "right to vote", for instance, enjoy no greater levels of definition.

    This should be the beginning and end of this argument. The broadcast warnings clearly speak in absolute terms, and here we see Ross admitting that he knows that the copyrights referred to in the warnings are not, in fact, absolute. Thus the warnings are not just vague, they are factually (and willfully) incorrect.

    Many unauthorized uses of copyrighted works are criminal and infringing, and copyright notices help remind people that there are consequences to these uses. To which uses? The warnings make absolutely no allowance whatsoever in their wording for non-infringing uses. Again: that is simply factually inaccurate. If this was really what the warnings were for, they would say "Some uses of this broadcast are prohibited," not "Any use of this broadcast is prohibited."

    So, how exactly would the FTC rewrite these copyright notices to reflect a consumer's ability to attempt a fair use defense? Should they paste in all of the above language? We're wading into the area of providing legal advice, and these examples aren't sufficiently detailed for that." We're supposed to believe that inaccurate warnings about legal consequences do not constitute "legal advice," but more accurate warnings would? Sorry, that is a meaningless distinction. You are either advising consumers or not.

    There is no question that in the Digital Age, consumers need a better understanding of both the rights of creators as well as the limits on those rights through fair use. Education is the right approach, and one to which the Copyright Alliance is dedicated. But asking the federal government to regulate free speech is not the best way to proceed. This is not a free speech issue, it is a commercial speech issue. That is why it is being argued before the FTC and not the Supreme Court. Commercial speech can be held to a standard of factual accuracy and that is what is at stake in this case. The entire thing could be settled easily by simply softening the absolute language--reduce "Any use" to "Many uses" or "Some uses."
    --
    Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
  24. You still don't understand by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Informative

    You still don't understand it. "License" only applies if you want to copy those tracks or otherwise commercially use that IP. You know, Copyright.

    Since copyright actually comes from the days of books and newspapers, get this: you never "licensed" a book, except if you wanted to republish it yourself. Otherwise, if you walk into a book store and buy one, that's it: you bought that book. (Or rather, a copy thereof.)

    The "license" bullshit comes from software, and was based on the following weasel reasoning: to use a program, you have to make a copy to RAM. Since you're making a copy, you need a license from the copyright holder. You need their permission to make copies. You know, Copyright.

    Re-read that paragraph, because that reasoning was the sole and only reason for software "end-user licenses". And, again, it never existed for anything else before: you don't get an end-user license on a book. And it's especially funny since, AFAIK:

    A) Even in the US copyright law, that loophole has already been closed. So, regardless of what MS tries to tell you, you _bought_ a copy of their software, you have the same rights as if you had bought a book.

    You _would_ need a license, if you wanted to press your own Vista CDs and sell them, or maybe make some derivative works based on it. Dunno, pack it together with your own crapware or themese and sell it. You don't need a license as Joe Average who just bought a packaged copy and installs it on his own home computer.

    It's already a disturbing trend that a corporation can try to snow you over several pages that they can override your consumer rights... and people actually believe it. So then, it's no surprise that:

    B) I now see them trying to expand this to stuff which didn't have even that bullshit excuse in the first place. To play a CD, you never needed to make a copy in any form or shape. A typical CD player never reads more than maybe a second or two ahead, at any given time.

    And, oh, since you seem obsessed by that car sale:

    C) Copyright never applied to stuff like cars, since you seem obsessed by that car sale. Consumer rights, however, did. There _have_ been manufacturers who tried stipulating that you don't have this or that right (e.g., that you're a criminal if you repair it yourself), and it's already been ruled even in the USA that they can't do that. You _are_ legally allowed to repair your own car, whether the manufacturer likes it or not.

    You may still void the warranty if you take your engine apart. You may get extra conditions if you have to give that car back, i.e., it's a lease or rental. But a sale? A sale is final. It's yours now. It's your legal right to do whatever you damn please with it, as far as the manufacturer is concerned.

    Even for rentals or leasing, it has already been ruled even in the USA that certain clauses don't belong there. Stipulating that you can't wreck it is OK. Most other stuff is not. Even if it's a contract, stuff that a reasonable person wouldn't expect in there, or wouldn't see a reason why it would be needed in there, is legally null and void even in the USA. E.g., if I had a rent-a-car shop and snuck in the fine print "I just adopted your firstborn", that clause would get thrown out of court if I tried to enforce it. It's not the kind of payment a reasonable person would expect in a contract to rent a car.

    Also, a contract doesn't override the laws in any part of the world. E.g., I can't put in a contract that you're now my slave, because slavery has been outlawed a long time ago. Well, the same applies to copyright law (which _does_ include that fair use clause) and consumer rights laws. _Regardless_ of what a contract says, it can't take away your legal rights.

    Also, the idea of a contract is, or at least used to be, something that has been explicitly agreed upon and signed in advance. It's (or used to be) also expected that if any point is even borderline controversial, then it would have been explicitly brought up and dis

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:You still don't understand by ajs318 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The "license" bullshit comes from software, and was based on the following weasel reasoning: to use a program, you have to make a copy to RAM. Since you're making a copy, you need a license from the copyright holder. You need their permission to make copies. You know, Copyright.
      And therein is the problem; because making a copy in RAM of a computer program, which is made as a necessary step in the execution of the program, constitutes Fair Dealing or otherwise does not infringe copyright. If you weren't allowed to make that copy in memory, then you wouldn't be able to use the program for its rightful purpose; and goods which are sold to consumers must by law be fit for purpose. By declaring that the intended purpose of the software is to be run on a computer, the vendor has given you permission to do anything necessary in pursuit of that purpose -- in this case, making a temporary copy in the computer -- under penalty of prosecution for selling substandard goods.

      Even if you don't accept the terms of the licence, the Law of the Land (Sale of Goods Act 1979, as amended) gives you the right to use the software for its intended purpose. And a contract cannot take away a statutory right.
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    2. Re:You still don't understand by ajs318 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Fitness-for-purpose is mandated by the Law of the Land. Goods must be fit for the purpose for which they are sold. If they want to sell you a beermat, they can't portray it in advertising material &c. as anything other than a beermat (14.2D). If you mention before any money changes hands that you intend to use it for some particular purpose, then the seller is even obliged to warn you if they believe that it may not be fit for that purpose (14.3).

      You do not have to accept the licence to use the program, even although such use requires the making of a copy, because you already have an implicit right to use your own property for its stated purpose -- precisely because it is your property.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  25. Re:I find this amusing. by Xiaran · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the worst thing all this business does is tarnish the *AAs reputation and annoy consumers. A case from a recent purchase I made. I found The Simpsons season 4 DVD set for cheap a while ago at a sale. As it has the monorail episode I decided to buy it :) Its all great except when I load it into my home DVD player I am force to watch the copyright violation scare message in 14 odd languages(Im in the EU) and I cant skip any of them. Slightly annoying. But then I find that *every* time I watch an episode I have to watch thew scarcy copyright message *again* in english for a good 40-50 seconds!

    What the hell is up with that. Why did I not just bit torrent it and burn it myself? I did the correct thing and bought the product. So I ripped the thing and stuck it on a hard disk and took out all the nonsensical messages.

    I don't really advocate mass copyright infringement but little things like that make me thing... what the hell... BT and burn away people.

  26. Re:WANTED: Lying sack of shit for our PR position by Dhalka226 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Any public relations position's job is to present their company in the best possible light given whatever policy is dictated to them from above. Sometimes you are given dickhead policies and if you want to keep your job, there's not much you can do to defend it short of lying or ignoring counter-arguments. (See pretty much all political discourse as a perfect example.)

    In the past, and still in a handful of cases today, presenting your company in the best light was done by treating the consumer well. I think the iPhone rebate announced today is an example of that. (For the record: I am not an Apple fanboi and hate those who are. I do not own an iPod, iPhone or any Apple computer; I do not have iTunes installed and have never bought a track from them, etc.) The idea there is simple: Treat them right, give them a decent product and they will return to buy from you again in the future.

    This is only necessarily in competitive markets where there are nearly identical replacements. Being an ass in that context will drive your customers away.

    In limited circumstances--movies, music, Windows, and more--there are monopolies or cartels that make it much harder to switch away. Yes, there is a lot of music outside the control of the RIAA, but it's not what you tend to hear when you turn your radio on in the car and that's what people are going to want. It's also not a real replacement; if I want a song by an artist from a major record label I have to play by their rules, a song by a random indy artist isn't the same thing. (It may be better or worse or even the same level of enjoyment, but it is not the thing I wanted.) Yes, you can install OS X or Linux or some alternate operating system, but if your applications don't run on it or you don't want to relearn things you're a bit stuck. Movies are probably the worst, in part because we've become accustomed to big-budget flicks with huge special effects that can't really be duplicated in independent films.

    Since there isn't such a clear-cut replacement in these cases, they can afford to dick their customers around. They have what we want, and our choices become buy it anyway, go without or turn to illegal means. Since increasingly people are choosing #3, you see a concerted effort by groups such as them to control the law (DMCA) to their advantage.

    So, no, you don't have to be a dickhead as a PR guy necessarily. You do, however, have to be as big a dickhead as the decision-makers in your company are.

  27. Re:I do wish people would get that right.. by svyyn · · Score: 4, Funny

    Though wikipedia says it's from John Heywood's (1546) as "wolde you bothe eate your cake, and have your cake?". Of course they later say in the same article that the "original, correct version" is "eat your cake and have it too". It's almost like the article were written by a bunch of different people at different times.

  28. The difference is.... by tinkerghost · · Score: 3, Insightful

    When you have to use an affermative defense, you have to go to the expense of going through the courts. When it's codified as a right, it can't be sued over to begin with. In many cases, you can 'win' at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars - and just not have to pay more. You don't actually get any money back from the people suing you to cover your lawyer. Yeah! that was a wonderful win now wasn't it.

  29. Not the courts, not the markets. Congress. by Infonaut · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Don't think for a single moment the courts necessarily give a rats behind about the principle of any sort of "deal" existing between the public and content creators with respect to the concept of intellectual property and copyright law.

    I'm curious why you believe this. For one thing, the courts are not uniform. Look at 9th Circuit decisions then look at 2nd Circuit decisions, and you'll see what I mean. Second, in many of the cases I've read, particularly USSC decisions, the Court has given ample evidence that it understands there is a balance of interests between holders of copyright and the public at large. The record of the courts is mixed on copyright issues. While the Copyright Cartel is flexing its powers in court, it is losing as often as it is winning. But the mere presence of all of this legal activity has the general public thinking that the courts are in the pocket of the Copyright Cartel.

    If anything, blame needs to be laid at the feet of Congress, for extending the duration of copyright. Their definition of "for limited times" is obviously out of whack, but the Court can't simply overturn Congressional extensions of the copyright duration. The standard of review on cases involving Congressional action having to do with the Intellectual Property Clause is quite rigorous.

    We need to turn our wrath at Congress. We need to push our Congresscritters to do what they're supposed to do, rather than relying on miraculous intervention by the courts. Our only hope is NOT letting the economy sort out the problem. Our hope is in exercising our franchise, and forcing our elected representatives to act in the interests of the public.

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