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Apple Cuts Off Linux iPod Users

Posted by Zonk on from the can't-stand-the-heat dept.

Will Fisher writes "New iPods will no longer be able to work with Linux. iTunes now writes some kind of hash (SHA1, md5?) to the iPod database which new iPods check against. If this check fails then the iPod reports that it contains 0 songs. This appears to be protection against 3rd party applications writing out their own databases. We haven't found out how to generate our own valid hashes (but we do know the hash includes the database itself, and possibly the iPod serial number), and are looking for help."

45 of 854 comments (clear)

  1. Have you tried Corned Beef? by 2names · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've heard this is the best way to make a good hash.

    --
    "I'm just here to regulate funkiness."
  2. Old ones by aedan · · Score: 4, Funny

    My old 5 gb iPod just jumped in value.

    Not that I'd sell it.

  3. But but but... by Markvs · · Score: 5, Funny

    I thought Apple had embraced open source

    --
    46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
    1. Re:But but but... by sayfawa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      And despite this, you'll still get told how good Apple is for open source in a few days in the next OSX vs Linux flame war.

      Anyway, this just makes it easier to say no to them IMO. I was already pissed off enough that my 2nd gen Nano couldn't load Rockbox, but now this.

      In TFA they make it clear they are going to try to get around this, and they probably will, but part of me just wants to say why bother? Fuck Apple. They don't want my money, good, they won't get it.

      --
      Free the Quark 3 from asymptotic confinement! Bring your charm! Don't get down! All colours and flavours welcome!
    2. Re:But but but... by arth1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I never understood why the iPod became so immensely popular compared to other personal players in the first place. It locks you down to using iTunes, makes it difficult to use multiple machines or move music around, doesn't have particularly high sound quality, and doesn't support a lot of music formats. I see a crowd mentality at work here -- people buy and then vigorously defend having bought an iPod, not because it's better than the competition, but because it's what your friends have. Individuality is fine, as long as it's the exact same individuality as all your friends!

      Granted, I see some advantages to the bigger iPods -- lots of storage is a good thing, and halfway decent battery life likewise. But the smaller ones? Just because it's branded "Apple"?

    3. Re:But but but... by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 5, Funny

      Careful! The last time I even suggested that Apple was not an open source friendly company here on Slashdot, I was modded down as "flamebait." Of course, I also reminded everyone that Apple's developers did not invent the mouse, object oriented programming, the GUI, and that those developers were also not capable of producing a preemptive scheduler, and the presence of those features in OS X represents Apple's team simply borrowing ideas from other people without contributing anything back.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:But but but... by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 5, Informative

      Usability and simplicity. I've had three other music players, some of them having received very good reviews (cowon products). But I used my wife's iPod, and it is simply a better, more user-friendly experience. I was disappointed to go back to my old player; and will very likely be replacing it with an ipod when it dies.

      Itunes is another reason for the casual user. They don't care about formats. Most of them can't tell the difference in quality. They don't need to transfer it to a million different locations. They know they can hear a song they like, and own it, and enjoy it -- relatively cheaply, and without any headache or hassle. I'm not a fan of it for the reasons you mentioned, but the vast majority of the paying public doesn't really care about those issues. Most aren't even aware of them.

    5. Re:But but but... by hiryuu · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I see a crowd mentality at work here -- people buy and then vigorously defend having bought an iPod, not because it's better than the competition, but because it's what your friends have.

      While I can't argue that many people may have done that, I went from swimming upstream to something that was designed to work with what I had. I had a Rio Karma from a few years back, specifically for the Ogg Vorbis support, but once I made the transition from Windows to Mac, I found that I was swimming upstream in my insistence on using this device. Still, I persisted until the hard drive died, and once the time came to buy another device - well, since I already had and really liked my iBook, I decided to go along with the design flow and picked up an iPod Nano. I wish I hadn't had to re-rip my collection, but I've been very happy with the aesthetics and the usability, given that I use a digital audio player specifically for working out, running/biking, or long drives.

      A number of people will complain about iTunes and how it manages files and playlists - and I agree that it doesn't do things the way I want, the way I'd done them before. It is very easy to use, but does some things I don't like and doesn't present the flexibility or power in use. Do you know what I discovered after a short while? I didn't care - it did a good enough job, and it wasn't worth the effort of micro-managing my playlists in painstaking detail the way I'd done before.

      --
      Karma: Excellent, but still won't get you laid.
    6. Re:But but but... by LordSnooty · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yes, casual users don't care for the technical details, so they want something usable and stylish. The fact that many of their friends have one too probably doesn't go amiss, since they'll no doubt need help with it or itunes now and again, and want to be confident that they own a machine that must be good because everyone else has one. Usability and marketing were the two edges that pushed the ipod ahead. Having said that there are many equally usable devices out there, but it's no coincidence that the ipod was and still is the most heavily marketed portable media player.

    7. Re:But but but... by xrayspx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, until very recently (this article), they DIDN'T lock you down to using iTunes. Amarok worked very, very well with my iPod, in fact, I loathe iTunes in comparison. Apple won't let you copy music from your ipod with itunes, Amarok allows this, case closed.

      I hate this decision, and see no benefit to Apple from it except to "drive eyeballs" to iTunes, which is horrible, and thus ITMS. So between that and making the recording industry feel more comfortable, since they just broke all the third party apps to let people copy THEIR OWN MUSIC off of their iPod, I'd say it's "Lose/Lose" to the users.

      Still happy I bought my Mac, still like my iPod, probably will skip a new one if this doesn't get fixed. What other players allow music to be Scrobbled when you plug them into your machine, and what apps support these properly? Amarok? I hope?

      --
      I like music
    8. Re:But but but... by notthe9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I really don't see how this improves the bottom line. Does it hurt Apple for people to be using something other than their media player (which is free to obtain) to put songs on their iPod?

      I know it is suggested that this is to thwart syncing with third-party apps, but it seems like that's a pointless effort. I have been known not to understand stuff, though.

    9. Re:But but but... by ajs · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Apple's trying to freeze out not only Linux, but any other player which tries to write to the iPod. Exactly. What they want to avoid is having to compete on the iPod-manager software front. They don't give a rat's whiskers about the Linux tools, but if Microsoft puts out their own tool that syncs the iPod up to the Zune Website and ships it with their OS... there goes Apple's user lock-in.

      On the one hand, I empathize with wanting control of the platform. On the other, I just can't work up any sympathy for them. They're certainly going to fail in the long-term, unless the invoke the DMCA... a move which would alienate them with the rip/burn crowd they've courted over the last many years, but might make them friends with the networks that they've lost.
    10. Re:But but but... by macshit · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I call BS on the usability arguement, sorry. My Creative Zen Nano is just as easy to use as my daughter's iPod if not easier. The only reason iPods sell as well as they do is name and hype.

      Maybe (hopefully) things are different these days, but the last time I looked at mp3 players (a year or two ago), it was pretty obvious why the ipod was so popular: all the models from other companies were (1) really ugly, (2) kind of flimsy feeling (apple used aluminum, others used painted plastic, usually with tacky chrome-looking plastic accents), (3) had awful UIs (hard to press and badly placed buttons etc), and (this is the part that amazes me), (4) more expensive than the ipod for the same amount of storage.

      It was really kind of surreal, like the other manufacturers were living in some sort of dreamland where they had no competition and people would buy any old junk they released as long as it had the string "mp3" in its name...

      --
      We live, as we dream -- alone....
  4. How many days until someone develops a work around by Traegorn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because I expect the Linux community to have one on my desk by Monday. Companies drive me crazy when they do this, I mean punishing someone whose a potential consumer of your product makes so much sense... yeesh. It's not like they're trying to hack the iTunes DRM - they just want to use a legitimate product they've purchased...

    --
    TRHOnline - Staggering Towards Brilliance
  5. Inevitable comment by interiot · · Score: 5, Funny

    I heard cannabis brownies were the way to go.

    1. Re:Inevitable comment by protolith · · Score: 4, Funny

      Mix the beef with the cannibis oils and get Corned Beef Hashish!

      I don't know if I should smoke it or serve it up with eggs.

  6. Re:So I guess... by Thrip · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You got it exactly backwards. Apple just gave a lot of people much more incentive to install a new OS on their iPod. (Including Windows users who don't like iTunes -- not just Linux users.)

    --
    I'm awake! The answer is BONK!
  7. Danger, Will Robinson! DMCA Alert by querist · · Score: 5, Interesting

    First, I applaud your determination to uphold the implied freedom to do what one will (within reason, of course) with something that someone owns.

    However, if you are in the USA you are running the risk of Apple invoking the DMCA.

    I hope they don't. I hope you succeed. I firmly believe from a technical standpoint it can be done. My concern is the legal ramifications.

  8. *sniff* by target562 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Application is using a non-public interface to access functionality... Vendor changes said non-public interface... Community is SHOCKED! WTF?

  9. design now defective by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    so .. tell me again why I should buy an ipod? because its the hippest device on earth?

  10. Rockbox by AlexCorn · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just use Rockbox then. It's an open-source firmware replacement. Though it may not run on the newest generation of iPods yet... http://rockbox.org/

  11. Apple increasingly hostile to Linux users by Pausanias · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple is hostile to Linux, because it is beginning to compete with OS X in a much more serious way than Windows.

    It all started last year when with the release of iTunes 7, Apple purposely broke DAAP, ending the compatibility of their iTunes software with various media players. Now rhythmbox/amaroK/banshee users can't listen to iTunes shares, and no one has yet been able to break the hash that would allow it.

    So it comes as no surprise that the iPod is being further locked down. The closer our desktops get in usability to OS X (and they are not close yet, but making progress), the more of this we'll see.

    Disclaimer: I use an OS X desktop and a Linux laptop.

    1. Re:Apple increasingly hostile to Linux users by Pausanias · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Price was no object. The main reason I went for a linux laptop was simple---pixel density. I work with very large images, and the more pixels I can see at a time, in better. Even back in 2001, you could buy a cheap 14" Dell with 1440x1050 resolution (128 pixels/linear inch). By contrast, in 2007 you cannot buy a 15.4" inch MacBook pro with similar pixel density. The best Apple can do is 1440x900, which comes to a crappy 110 pixels/linear inch. Simply put, the pixels on a MacBook/MacBook Pro are just way too big.

      My current laptop is a Dell Precision M70 (top of the line in 2004) with a screaming graphics card (NVidia Quadro FX 1400 Go). It runs Ubuntu. Since it's a Pentium M, I can undervolt it in linux and it runs fairly cool. Wireless, everything works out of the box (though WPA didn't work until the most recent version of Ubuntu, 7.04). I love it.

      For things like iPhoto/iMovie/iDVD, you can't beat a mac---I still go back for those. But I'm starting to get sick of this iTunes nonsense, and if there were suitable linux alternatives to iLife (which there aren't, no matter how much we'd like to think so), I would completely ditch OS X.

  12. Worst product launch in a long time by ahbi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is going on with Apple?
    Let us count how bad this product launch is:
    1) 33% price cut for the iPhone, which threw early adopters in a fit, and then the $100 "rebate".
    2) iPod touch is crippled. The Bluetooth is physically there (supposedly) but not enabled. No editing calender appointments. No Notes app or the other apps from iPhone. Screen issues with the contrast & blackness versus the iPhone.
    3) iPod Classic, slower less responsive UI. Old Video accessories don't work with the iClassic.
    4) iPod Nano, the FatPod. Same slower UI as the Classic. No memory increase.

    Seriously, in 10 days Apple seems to have found a way to piss everyone off. Now they go after the Linux community. How badly have they bungled this product launch?

    1) As a non-iPhone owner or wanter, the brew-ha-ha over the $200 price cut irritates me not because of the price cut but the reaction is such that you better believe Apple won't ever make similar price cuts in the future.
    Plus you know a 16GB iPhone will come out as soon as the iPhone is released in Europe.

    2) Once again, the iTouch will be jailbreaked and the iPhone apps ported to the iTouch, but this type of needless product differentiation crippling cause bad will. And, this hacking may break whenever Apple releases a firmware update. For example, the Linux lock-out of this story.
    Apple could have just given people the product they want in the first place. As the screams of people have shown, there is a market for a phoneless iPhone.
    The screen issues are unfixable but possibly explained by manufacturing variables.

    3) The iClassic is the least changed and therefore least disliked of the new products. The software (DRM) incompatibility with video accessories is unnecessary.

    4) Now the FatPod is merely ugly. It is a shame about the less responsive UI. And really it was time to bump up the storage to 16gb. One wonders if the storage was capped at 8Gb in an attempt to differentiate this versus the iTouch. After all if they are needlessly crippling the iTouch why not nerf the FatPod?

    Is it just hurbis that has gotten Apple's head so far up its ass, or is this just a cyclical Apple implosion? If the latter, we are in for a few more years of Apple stupidity before they re-emerge with some new wonder product.

  13. only a big deal for ITMS by Floritard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    If you're using only Linux, then you're not using iTunes, and unless you have a some separate access to a computer with iTunes you're not using ITMS. So why use the proprietary database format of iTunes at all? Just use rockbox and treat your iPod like what it is, a mass storage device. Easier manage your files that way anyway. Headline really should read Apple Cuts Off ITMS From Potential Users.

    1. Re:only a big deal for ITMS by ben+kohler · · Score: 4, Informative

      Rockbox, last I checked, had a fraction the battery life of the ipod os, and was also not very responsive of an interface. Are you saying its better now? i don't have an ipod, but i do follow rockbox development. from the changelog, august 6:

      Reduced battery consumption on PP5002 targets (iPod 1st/2nd gen and 3rd gen). Now rockbox battery runtime is better than OF, verified on 2nd gen :-) OF = original firmware, of course. so apparently, yes it is better now! maybe time to give it another try =)
  14. Re:So I guess... by Leftist+Troll · · Score: 5, Informative
    That is, assuming this isn't defeated.

    Hop along to freenode #gtkpod if you have some serious technical expertise in this kind of thing and are able to obtain a new iPod Classic or Nano.
  15. Re:I hate iTunes by caerwyn · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I dunno about that. I'm a tech guy and I like iTunes- but then, the three computers on my desk here are a mac and two windows/linux dual boot machines.

    The trick is to let the software do its job without micromanaging it. Focus on what you want to get done rather than the detailed steps of how to get there, and you'll find that it does actually end up being easier and faster.

    (Actually, that's generally the problem with open source UIs, I've found. Sure, they provide every possible way to customize every detailed step of the process... but all I want to do is accomplish X! If I want to break things down into algorithmic steps and tweak the parameters of those steps, well, that's what programming is and I do that enough in my job and my side projects. Applications should just work, they shouldn't need to be programmed.)

    --
    The ringing of the division bell has begun... -PF
  16. Re:Could Apple be sued over this? by MBCook · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's not like they sold you an iPod saying it would work with Linux and then removed it. You could sue over that. People have (the famous Intellivision keyboard for example). You bought a product for a non-supported use and are complaining that it's not working in a non-supported configuration. They didn't take Linux support away because they never gave it to you in the first place. You were using a hack, and you will in a few weeks when someone figures this out.

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  17. MediaMonkey Is Much Better by rebmemeR · · Score: 5, Informative

    iTunes sucks. I have an iPod 160 and my library has 11,000 songs (and there are folks out there with 50,000+). I'm on Windows XP SP2 on a fast box with 2GB memory and USB 2.0. iTunes is entirely unscalable. It is very slow to do anything with my library, even with manual sync. Adding one song to the iPod is a 5-minute process. File transfer speed is not the problem. For sure iTunes wastes time doing unnecessary work. Ejecting the iPod alone takes over a minute. Also, the iTunes MP3 player is buggy. It has trouble with MP3/VBR and generates clicking in the audio output. MediaMonkey is a much better content organizer. It is very fast. But the Apple's file format change on the iPod Classic means the current version of MM can't handle the iPod filesystem. I hope the MM developers will have the problem solved soon.

    --
    Birth is the leading cause of death.
  18. Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro by Arabani · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Putting in cryptographic hashes isn't just "breaking the interface". It's called locking down the entire bloody thing and making life miserable for anybody trying to reverse engineer it.

    Granted, Apple is well within its rights to do such a thing, but it's bad PR. People are starting to warm up to the idea that once you buy something, you should be able to use it however you like (since you BOUGHT it). Apple has no obligation to support 3rd party software, but neither are they obligated to break 3rd party software. Without any other explanation, it looks like it was a deliberate attempt to lock out non-Apple software. And that's why people are upset - it's the same reason DRM riles so many people.

  19. Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro by Dread+Pirate+Skippy · · Score: 4, Funny

    This revolutionary new tool allows any audio device with a 3.5mm stereo output jack to dock with any other audio device with a 3.5mm stereo input jack.

  20. Re:I hate iTunes by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I just hate iTunes. I know other people like it, but it seems to me that non-tech people find iTunes easy, and tech folks don't. As a tech guy, iTunes drives me insane. It doesn't do what I want, doesn't do things my way, does things I don't expect, etc.

    I think much of it is a control issue. Techies tend to be control freaks. We also grew up with Winamp (or similar), and are used to devising our own directory structure for our music collection, expecting to have iTunes use our file management schemas. When I first started using it, I got confused. Where the hell are my music files? Why is it recopying what I just put over there? Why won't it let me play these files?

    After a day of this, I just said 'screw it' and let iTunes put shit where it wants to, and I decided it does a good job. That's the difference in perception - iTunes is a good system to get music from various sources and never have to worry about the notion that music is contained in 'files.' If you try to buck the system, you and iTunes will hate each other.

  21. Re:Linux Schminux by hypnagogue · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even Microsoft doesn't have the balls to be so obviously hostile.
    So the Vista-lockout is less obviously hostile? I disagree. Microsoft is the real trailblazer when it comes to obvious hostility toward their customers. Followed closely behind by the RIAA, MPAA and Sony. This little iPod interop issue is pretty minor by comparison.
    --
    Liberty you never use is liberty you lose.
  22. Because they made it cool by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    MP3 players were out long before the iPod ever came around, but nobody really cared. To the extent that people did listen to music, they'd just keep doing it on a walk/discman or the like. An MP3 player was just a new gadget that only some cared about. Well, Apple changed that, they sold the style, they made it cool. It became a fashion accessory. Sorority girls started to carry them not even because they cared about listening to music, but because it was fashionable to do so.

    Apple convinced everyone that a music player was something you needed to have, and their's was the stylish one to get. As such, they managed to grab the majority of the market.

    Well, once you've got something like that going, inertia will carry you a long way. People don't like change, once they get something that works for them they don't change it without reason. As such you get people sold on iPods and when they need a new player, they just go and get another one, they don't really look at alternates. It works for them, why change?

    Finally you should know that individuality isn't something most hold in a high regard. Even most of the "non-conformist" types simply work real hard to conform with their given non-conformist group. It's rare to find people who simply don't give a shit and do their own thing regardless of society.

  23. Re:I hate iTunes by caerwyn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is a symptom of exactly what I was talking about.

    Why do you want your music files organized a certain way? The point of iTunes and such software is that you shouldn't need to care how it's organized- you should be able to focus on the task you *actually* want to accomplish: 1) Find specific music. 2) Play said music. 3) Put a subset of your music on an mp3 player. 4) Burn cds of subsets of your music.

    Having to organize files is a problem, not part of a solution to a problem- you should simply be able to perform the above tasks without needing to worry about the details. That's the philosophy of software design with systems like iTunes.

    That's one of the things that has really pushed me away from Linux and toward MacOS X for everyday usage over the past years- the focus on actually getting something done rather than worrying about the stuff that I have to do first in order to subsequently get something done.

    --
    The ringing of the division bell has begun... -PF
  24. Re:My wife was given an Ipod for Christmas.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    .trl

    It is a proprietary format for encoding troll posts.

  25. Re:How many days until someone develops a work aro by Blakey+Rat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Two points:

    1) You're assuming that this change is intended purely to alienate Linux users. This change was probably made for some other reason, and alienating Linux users was a (possibly unintended) side-effect of it.

    2) The iPod never claimed to carry any sort of support for Linux whatsoever. It seems to me that if you wanted to support Linux, you'd buy a product that actually supports Linux instead of one that doesn't-- and then complaining when the hack you're using to get it to work no longer works!

    --
    Comment of the year
  26. Re:So I guess... by The+Great+Pretender · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can't believe Microsoft did this! What a bunch of evil, coporate money grubbers. M$ will use every trick in the book to make sure they protect their systems and force people into drinking the Kool-Aid. What a bunch of...what? Apple? Oh! Good for Apple protecting their rights and systems. Damn Linux pirates should respect the fact that the iPOD is Apples proprietry knowledge. I can't believe that Linux users thought they could get away with it...

    --
    A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
  27. Encrypted firmware prevents Linux on the new iPods by traindirector · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Apple just gave a lot of people much more incentive to install a new OS on their iPod.

    They've also made it currently impossible to use alternate OSes on the iPod by encrypting the firmware on the 2nd gen Nano and all subsequent iPods, which is a much more difficult obstacle to overcome. I'm surprised there isn't as much of an uproar about this on Slashdot.

  28. Re:Encrypted firmware prevents Linux on the new iP by E+IS+mC(Square) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    *time to lose some karma* >>I'm surprised there isn't as much of an uproar about this on Slashdot.

    I am not. When it comes to Apple, the fanatics will gang up on anybody complaining even a slight bit about Apple. They don't see the irony that Apple has become Microsoft of the DAP market. Force is very strong on them.

  29. Re:So I guess... by fratermus · · Score: 5, Informative

    iPods are highly overrated, and irritatingly restrictive. I have a sandisk sansa express (3gb after adding in the microSD) and the wife has a creative zen stone 3gb. Both were cheap and show up as USB drives on our respective Debian Linux 2.6.x boxen.

    --
    L.V.X., brother mouse
  30. Re:So I guess... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To All:

    http://www.apple.com/feedback/ipod.html

    You know what to do. Complaining to the source is sometimes better than complaining to other people with the same opinions.

  31. Easily fixed. by berkus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Worry not, friend! Apple will fix this bug in the next iPhone revision.

  32. A gated suburban hell by Shihar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have a better idea. How about you just stop buying Apple products? These days, I would take MS over Apple any day of the week. Even better, I can pick neither one of them and rest easy at night. Going to the Apple world is like entering someone's personal fiefdom. Sure, Apple might not control the entire market, but once you step into the Apple world they control just about every single aspect of that world. If you want a single company in control of all of your electronics, go with Apple and get your iBook, iPhone, iTunes, and iPod. Your products will certainly play nice with each other, even if they don't play nice with anyone else. If nothing else, you will easily fall into the shiny white plastic aesthetic of Apple and find that Apple marketers will work tirelessly to make you feel cool for doing it. That said, I feel that I can survive without a team of marketers making sure that my gadgets make me feel cool.

    I'll take the chaos and diversity of the city over Apple's quiet little aesthetically pleasing, shiny white, gated suburban community.